Sword and Bored: Trade

The boss has been killed and the loot has been ninja’d, so what is a pickup group to do now? Split up, of course.

It’s funny how fast PUGs break apart after the boss is killed. But sometimes if you stick around for just a bit after downing the big bad, you can make some really good friends.

This marks the end of the latest story arc for Sword and Bored, I hope you’ve enjoyed it so far. We have had a lot of fun making them. And we hope that Mo’s adventures keep going for a long time. Now, on to this week’s comic…

SnB13-trade

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52 Comments on "Sword and Bored: Trade"

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SuppliesATK
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SuppliesATK

Shaddoe NebHatesYou Are you sure you want to trash this idea? Type D-E-L-E-T-E in the space below to confirm.

blackcatcrosses
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blackcatcrosses

Amphax Or Bind on Account.

MJ Guthrie
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MJ Guthrie

Shaddoe NebHatesYou GROAN =P

Oleg Chebeneev
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Oleg Chebeneev

I give muslim woman 10 for trolling. Thats exactly how I trolled noobs who were seeking help. You tell them “come, I have great item for you”. They waste 30 min to get to where you are. And then you’re like: “ooops, its BoP”. Hahaha. I start to like this comic. It gives nice instructions how to have fun in MMOs

paragonlostinspace
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paragonlostinspace

BoP the bane of mmo-rpgs.

Amphax
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Amphax

Have an upvote! I dislike BoP too…at least they could make it Bind on Guild!

ZenDadaist
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ZenDadaist

Ha, so true.

I’m not at all a fan of the BoP concept, but I can see how some games do end up needing a few things to be BoP becasue of their entire design (uber raid drops for example). I just generally prefer games that have designs and economies which don’t have BoP beyond one or two very specialised instances and instead. Eve Online is a brilliant example. It doesn’t even have BoP, and the only BoEquip items are really more like consumables – Implants and Rigs are remarkably like ship skins in terms of how they work. So in Eve you can go out and farm the item drop yourself, or perhaps it’s something you can go and build yourself. Maybe you can buy it with lots of LPs. And ultimately there’ll be someone willing to sell it to you straight for phat ISK.

Darkwalker75
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Darkwalker75

zyrusticae Damonvile 
And what about the crafting, where every man and his dog can churn out all sorts of equipment lie some kind of factory?

I think that’s just as absurd as the gear progression you mention here.
We need story where Mo does that too :P

Darkwalker75
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Darkwalker75

blast tyrant Damonvile 
I’m betting that’s something that will come in future strips

Darkwalker75
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Darkwalker75

xlinkup 
I think that’s the point, and that’s also what makes the series so great.
All those little nuisances that you don really think much about.

Aglethe
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Aglethe

Ket_Viliano Aglethe zyrusticae Damonvile
Happy to help =) Matt’s a really interesting follow if you do the youtube thing and have an interest in historical combat and arms & armour. The armour stuff is perhaps even more surprising than the weapons, rpgs really undersell the protective value of padded armour for example, it was the standard “light” (it was also quite a bit bulkier than games tend to portray it) armour used throughout the medieval period. 
Assuming you’re using this stuff for PnP roleplaying, here’s a couople videos you might find intersting on weapon carry laws in England in the middle ages, and what might have been realistic for an adventurer to be carrying: 

Your players might hate you for it, but you will be more authentic. ;)

Aglethe
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Aglethe

zyrusticae Aglethe
No prob =) And in all fairness, he’s talking about the late middle ages here, which is after the development of the blast furnace made it much easier to manufacture sword blades, and there had been quite a few swords accumulating over the centuries (as well as the plague reducing the pool of existing swordsmen vs the pool of existing swords). So they would have been likely to be worth more in earlier periods.
And there is of course a range of sword models and qualities, much like with cars today, from old rusty junkers, to bog standard Civics and Accords, right on up to fancy luxury models. He recently did a video on the sword from the Sutton Hoo burial ship which was probably a fairly high status model for its’ time (the migration era): https://youtu.be/uOtCUEKDeSY .

Shaddoe
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Shaddoe

Jacra I would likely have to give up something else that I’m doing to produce another strip per week.

krieglich
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krieglich

LordOfBread Except UO & Fallen Earth. :)

LordOfBread
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LordOfBread

it´s funny because it´s true

Zo5o
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Zo5o

I’ll bet this has been posted before but, if you like comics, check out
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=1
The best comic based on playing an MMO I’ve ever read and really funny to boot. 400 odd episodes too.

mysecretid
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mysecretid

tanek_09 blast tyrant 
I’ve seen the “binding timer” in games as well, and I think it’s a pretty good compromise solution.
It allows me to give or trade or sell a piece of gear I can’t use to a fellow group member who can use it, but I’m also not damaging the game economy by dumping it off for big cash.
Honestly, I usually just give things away to people in the party who can use them. Most games, there’s not much of a shortage of loot or gold opportunities.
Plus, I always remember that, if it weren’t for the group, I wouldn’t have gotten the Cool Thing I Can’t Use in the first place.
My opinions, anyway,
Cheers,

Jacra
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Jacra

camelotcrusade Of course holding a shield in your hand and equipping and using it properly are still very different things I believe!

Jacra
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Jacra

Hahaha, fantastic, I laughed out loud.

Scarecrowe
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Scarecrowe

Sixcess
GoGo Freedom!

Ket_Viliano
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Ket_Viliano

Aglethe zyrusticae Damonvile  OMG fooking awesome! Thanks, I am gunna use this info!

xlinkup
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xlinkup

This comic somehow manages to capture some of the most annoying MMO cliches and I just luv it :D

zyrusticae
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zyrusticae

Aglethe zyrusticae Damonvile Oh, that’s really interesting! Thanks for the info.

Aglethe
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Aglethe

CistaCista ManastuUtakata Loyheta
They contribute by… not contributing, in some sense. The point is to keep the markets from being flooded by the infinite supply of dropped gear in games where items don’t get permanently destroyed through use. As well as to force people to spend time doing the content to get the high end stuff, regulating the rate of progression somewhat (theoretically anyway). 
Even just going heavy on BoE vs BoP can have ramifications, look at what happened with GW2s economy for example.
It’s not a perfect solution, and it can certainly be over used, but it may be the lesser evil when it comes to EQ/WoW style theme parks.

Aglethe
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Aglethe

zyrusticae Damonvile
While you’re spot on about the role that BoP/BoE play in game terms, you’re sort of overstating the value of swords historically, at least in some medieval contexts. This isn’t the exact video I was trying to find (Matt has one where he goes into more depth with the coroner’s reports and other records, as well as touching on different time periods), but it does talk about just how cheap actual swords could be in the late middle ages: https://youtu.be/s9SvgWJNSd8

CistaCista
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CistaCista

ManastuUtakata Loyheta How do bound objects contribute to the economy?

bossrprouse
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bossrprouse

I hate when I don’t notice that myself when offering loot to someone. This has been fun reading, Larry.

Ramellan
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Ramellan

Can you turn out these comics faster by any chance? Once a week isn’t enough humor to get me by, and I want to see what else happens.

wolfyseyes
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wolfyseyes

Since Mo yanked a mace out of a rat earlier, maybe it’s better he doesn’t have that shield. Who knows where that thing has been.

Ket_Viliano
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Ket_Viliano

CrowingOne blast tyrant  The thing about EVE is that the vast majority of bling is only used in PvE safer zones, and that PvP gear is mostly about ISK efficiency, rather than outright power. The very most rare and expensive gear, the officer mods, are really only found on Titans, or possibly Super Carriers, due to the extreme cost and marginal benefit. Which brings up the other striking thing about gear in EVE, that better stuff is exponentially more expensive, and only marginally better.

Jadefox
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Jadefox

In a fantasy MMO BoP or BoE is easy to explain. All a developer has to do is create some lore reason for it.

Here is an example of what I mean.
  Long ago a race of Smiths existed. These beings were masters off creating magical artifacts. There was a price to pay for creating items of power. Every Smith had to place a piece of their soul in any magical item they made. This small fragment of soul used to power the item was driven to seek out a living soul in order to try to complete itself. Therefor when an adventurer picks up a magic item. That item binds to that person.

See it is easy to come up with a reason why an Item can be BoP/BoE.

Where BoP/BoE fails is that while you can not trade the item. You can drop it, trash and sell it to a npc.

Games need to develop mechanics as to why you can get rid of these type of items.

Sixcess
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Sixcess

Talking about how quickly PUGs split… that was one of many things I loved about City of Heroes.  On Freedom a PUG running regular levelling content could run for as long as you wanted it to.  If a player left another would be sure to join before the next mission.  Virtue too, though those were perhaps a little bit more likely to implode in drama, or be sidetracked to Pocket D…
((Great comic today.  Love the RPer))

blast tyrant
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blast tyrant

Koolthulu ManastuUtakata Loyheta I agree, time is time and, within reason, the rewards should be the same no matter how you choose to spend it.  It doesn’t even have to be a 1:1 ration, if raiding is 3 times as hard as soloing maybe you should be able to the same gear if you spend three times the hours.

Grimmtooth
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Grimmtooth

Shaddoe NebHatesYou Wakka Wakka

Loyheta
Guest
Loyheta

Koolthulu ManastuUtakata Loyheta Well without binding the market would be flooded with epics and they’d lose a lot of value. So the moment you hit cap you could just buy some high end gear for relatively cheap. I understand the place of binding I just think that it shouldn’t be there. Lower the drop rate of epics and take off binding, then add fabled/legendary gear and make it bound only

Loyheta
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Loyheta

ManastuUtakata Loyheta Yeah I agree. I think exceptionally powerful items, for the most part, should be bound. Things that you get from powerful enemies/allies I don’t really have a problem with. Now when you pick up some random drop from some random enemy or buy a crafted item and suddenly it is bound to you… ugh lazy.
When every item and every drop gets super glued to your soul instead of adding interesting mechanics to deal with tons of surplus drops you get people irritated with it.
I’d personally rather gift friends and other players items I can’t use or am done using rather than delete, vendor, or disenchant.
Just for most games it seems odd that you can’t hand over a shield. Now if that was the fabled Aegis gifted by the warrior god of their world. Yeah I can get that xD

Koolthulu
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Koolthulu

ManastuUtakata Loyheta But if it is in game currency where you actually have to play the game to get (not buy in a cash shop and ignoring gold sellers) then why does it matter if someone bought the gear or raided to get it? Playing for 50 hours to get the gold to buy gear is as much “earning” the reward as getting lucky on a raid drop.

zyrusticae
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zyrusticae

Damonvile A lot of the problem stems from the absurdity of the constant vertical loot progression the genre has been saddled with for so long. 
Like, IRL you’d likely only get the one sword and stick with it for a really long time, performing regular maintenance, oiling it up, sharpening it occasionally, etc. That one sword alone is likely extremely expensive and cost-prohibitive to replace thanks to a scarcity of either materials or skilled labor with which to make it (or both). And, of course, that sword is likely to break or become unusable down the line due to wear-and-tear, or even just become unused due to technological and social developments. 
In themepark MMORPGs, none of these things are true. Occasionally a game might require you to repair it, but it’s usually extremely cheap to do so, and you get it basically for free and are expected to replace it with upgrades at a pace that is, frankly, kind of absurd. These items are always permanent and everlasting (at least until the servers go down), so they never actually need replacing. Hence, the complete lack of any sort of economy around these items, because after a certain point the market will ALWAYS be flooded with the things unless they do the bind-on-equip/pickup thing. 
The alternative is to do it EVE-style – where all items are expected to be destroyed at some point and there is not a hugely vertical upgrade structure incentivizing players to constantly chase bigger carrots. Unfortunately, this is simply not as profitable, hence why you see so many publishers chasing the easy carrot tree instead of trying to build something new and interesting with a structure that actually makes logical sense.

Shaddoe
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Shaddoe

NebHatesYou But they can’t let go of the idea because it’s bind-on-pickup

blast tyrant
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blast tyrant

Damonvile I just like the idea of a bunch of hardened, grizzled adventurers sitting around the corpse of their long hated, but now fallen, foe…rolling dice to see who gets his horse.

ManastuUtakata
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ManastuUtakata

Speared that one very well, guys! <3

camelotcrusade
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camelotcrusade

Damonvile When you think about it’s also a little strange she can’t use the shield in the first place (assuming that’s part of why she’s giving it away).  She looks like she’s doing a good job holding it in front of herself to me.  ;)

ManastuUtakata
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ManastuUtakata

Loyheta 
From a game design perspective it’s a good concept that brings stability of sorts to the economy and game play. And allows players to earn rewards as opposed to by their way to the top using ingame currency. Where it falters is with the devs obsessive use of it on items that unlikely to effect the economy and/or gameplay whatsoever, including uncommon or “green” loot. In WoW for example, they even have BoP on some vendor trash or “grey” items. This is excessive and needless, to say the least.

tanek_09
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tanek_09

blast tyrant The best system I’ve seen so far has had bind-on-pickup, but with a 24-48 hour window where you can trade it to anyone who was there when it dropped.  That way, you don’t need to worry as much about who picks up what while still in the dungeon..
I do like the idea of having non-bound items in dungeons as well. Maybe items a bit less powerful, or not as rare. People could buy those as a small boost up to getting the better items for themselves.

blast tyrant
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blast tyrant

Rheem Octuris CrowingOne blast tyrant I think the first few weeks of my EQ experience was my roommate helping me to power level through Innothule and Guk.  All told it was more fun once I got out on my own.  That first solo trip to meet him in Neriak was terrifying.

Damonvile
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Damonvile

I enjoy how ridiculous this comic makes everyday mmo things seem. Things we normally just accept as part of a game. I’ve read many arguments about BoP/BoE but seeing him unable to pull it from her hands still makes me laugh and think yeah…that really is dumb.

Rheem Octuris
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Rheem Octuris

CrowingOne blast tyrant  When I started EverQuest it was in the late Kunark era, and was basically handed a set of level 40ish gear (the items didn’t actually have levels on them but that’s about the level you had to be to get the items normally). Honestly, I wish that hadn’t happened, as there was basically only one reason for doing things after that and it was grinding xp.

fastcart
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fastcart

A true RPer would have been able to convey bind-on-pickup in character. (:

Loyheta
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Loyheta

Bound items… got to hate the concept.

blast tyrant
Guest
blast tyrant

CrowingOne blast tyrant So you need the gold to get the gear, but you need gear to get the gold?  Yeesh.

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