CSE is creating 30 classes for Camelot Unchained

Camelot Unchained’s current plans are to create a whopping 30 classes for the game, which means a heck of a lot of reveals over the coming months. City State Entertainment decided to include its community in the reveal process by announcing that it will send out surveys to allow its backers to vote on the order of the reveals (grouped in threes).

The studio posted a page with tantalizing outlines for the 30 proposed classes. If you look closely enough, you might be able to get a few hints about what’s in store.

A few of the developers, including Mark Jacobs, got together to record an hour-long class system update. Jacobs explained why the team has greatly expanded its class list, which had to do with reevaluating the path system. “We want to create really cool classes,” he said. You can watch the video after the break.

Source: Class reveal votes. Thanks to Spykedruid for the tip!
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Mark Jacobs
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Mark Jacobs

Siphaed Mark Jacobs Okay, I’m back at the office and I see the response. Here’s a copy and paste from the other thread:

You said:
“So there’s a generic question that I was asked to re-ask with no attention to any directly labeled competition game. 

Lately there has been a streaming show of crowd-sourced games that first have their normal Kickstarter model, but then start to double-dip. It’s not so much that they, like you, start to do Backer programs on their own through their site, but instead that they open premature cash shops with houses, castles, and Guild Halls.   This is besides later opening another store section that sells tons of things from decorations, to cloths, RP specific items, trees, storage chests, and so much more.
  Not only does it become a somewhat visible cash-grab, but based on perspective it becomes P2W.  How so?  Not everyone plays for gear/stats as the top ‘end-all’ objective, some play for that prestigious castle ownership to become king of or to hold that awesome gear  skin that a very small percentage of players own because of the accomplishments to obtain it; even if it’s equal to a knave’s weapon in power, tis the very look that turns cheek in awe of one’s presence.    And these other crowd-sourced games are basically harpooning huge whales into their game with promise of getting a kingdom (literally!) to play their game and sink a miniature fortune into it.

So, what of Camelot Unchained?  I highly doubt that such a temptation to go whaling as well has crossed your mind, Mark Jacobs. But a more thorough answer on the thoughts of such practices would be way more reassuring….”

My response was:

The question of cash shop + sub, P2W, P2Accelerate, P4Advantage, etc. is an incredibly difficult one, even before you mix in the additional complications of being a crowd-funded game. Because I have always been incredibly reticent to criticize other developers, please excuse me if I seem to be a little less direct on some points. This is my second attempt at a post since my first version quickly turned into a lengthy sermon and would be more appropriate on my blog or other post. Plus, it really was TL;DR. So, here is attempt #2.

Here’s the TL;WR version – No. :)

As to P2W/P4A, I can say, without any fear of contradiction, that we will have nothing in our tiers that will convey any advantage in combat (I’ll address cosmetics separately), whether directly or indirectly. The temptation to do so is great of course, especially when we’re late, and paying refunds, because doing so would provide a significant amount of additional money. Plus, it would be incredibly easy for us to design some tiers that could fall into the P2A/P4A category, and then justify them. However, I will not go down that path.

In terms of cosmetics, I think it is very important to separate cosmetics that imply success on the field of battle versus cosmetics that fall into the “dress up” category. I believe that if some players want fancy clothing for RPing/fun purposes, that is fine by me (I’ll address payment for such items in a second). Gamers come in all shapes and sizes and play styles and I know that for many, being able to engage in the equivalent of fantasy cosplay/RP/etc. in a virtual world is important. As such, I have no problem with it. Such outfits/players can help the world feel more alive and immersive as long as the cosmetics fit the world. Now, if these cosmetics imply status within the world in terms of success in RvR, yes, I do worry about that. That’s why I’ve promised our Backers that rewards that can be won through RvR as combatants or crafters will never be able to be bought in a cash shop (this is really easy for us as per below). Now, in terms of the “dress up” items, I would really prefer that those items be bought for in-game currency/rewards, and not for real-life cash.

We’ve been very clear that our game is going to be a sub-based game. IMO, I said here, there and elsewhere, that a full-price sub games that also have a cash shop are indeed double-dipping, especially if those items can only be bought for real-life cash. We’ve also been clear that once the game launches, our Founder Point system will also go away because that would fall under the category of double-dipping. So, do I think we will ever have a cash shop to sell “pure” cosmetics? What I said about a full-priced sub game works here as well. I said during the KS that we reserve the right to do so BUT (big, giant, Kardashian size but), as of now, we have no intent/desire to do so. I’d much rather just put the dress-up items in a clothing store and/or allow our crafters to make them.  

In terms of harpooning whales, we have been beyond scrupulous in ensuring that our bigger tiers don’t convey any advantage, directly or even indirectly, in combat/leveling/etc. Could we harpoon a lot more whales if we didn’t do this? Yep, sure could, there are a lot of whales out there out there mateys! And man oh man, is it is so easy to create whale-friendly tiers and benefits. However, I like looking at the mirror and not being disgusted with myself, so these policies are not going to change, just as I promised, during the Kickstarter, that they wouldn’t.

In terms of premature cash shops, well, I guess it would depend if you could get a full refund for your purchase and if the money earned is used to get the game ready for launch. In our case, we are still offering refunds, so if Backers are dissatisfied; they can get their money back. But, as per above, we have resisted the temptation to add Builder Points, more Founder Point items, etc, While I am not against getting additional money for Camelot Unchained, I’d much rather, at this point, sell stuff like swag which are real, cool and provide immediate value to our Backers in return for their support. It just feels cleaner to me, as both a Kickstarter-funded game and one that is still in development. I have even resisted adding new Builder Tiers until we prove to the Community that we can back up our words with deeds. The new terrain system was one of those deeds, lots more coming.

As to your on-topic question, undecided as of yet. The key for us is in-game performance + development time. We will have a ton of abilities/combinations and we have to make sure that we are not trying to do too much via animation/effects. Our win goes from the gameplay itself and that’s what we have to focus on.

Craywulf
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Craywulf

AilsaN10 I’ve watched it at least 4 times because I am hearing impaired and dialogue is hard to pick up without closed captioning/ subtitles. So I hard to relisten to the video 4 times before I could respond in my first post. I understand their aims, I still feel they are overshooting. I will be overjoyed to be proven wrong. I wish them nothing but the best.

AilsaN10
Guest
AilsaN10

@Craywulf did you watch the video? I had the same concerns you do but watching the video gave me clarity on the process and the reasons they are doing it this way. Seriously, watch it if you haven’t yet.

Craywulf
Guest
Craywulf

Arrobee Never had a chance to get into DAoC, I’ve heard a lot positive things about it, oddly I wasn’t aware it had that many classes.

Viability should indeed be a loose descriptor in RvR, but unfortunately I have not seen or played such game. I will give CSE the benefit of doubt because Mark Jacobs has been down this road.

Arrobee
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Arrobee

Craywulf Arrobee I find myself looking to DAoC, and a quick count has them currently sitting at 48 classes over 3 realms. Although, that is after quite a few expansions, at launch, if my math is correct, they had 33 unique and viable classes. That was a game designed by Mark. I have no doubt, they can pull off a game with 30 unique classes.

I don’t want to assume you follow the game news, but the 30 classes, aren’t even all slated for launch day. The Spirit Pet classes may be after launch depending on time constraints, also, their Stealth Stretch Goal is 12 of those 30 classes, 3 of which also will not come out until after launch. So realisticly, CU is looking at 24 combat classes at launch – possibly 27 if the Pet Classes work out in time. Now 27 isn’t a lot less than 30, but remember, DAoC launched with 33 classes.

Also, ‘viable’ is a loose word in an RvR game with variable group sizes. You aren’t forced to bring your top 10 class/group set up. So a player can play the class they enjoy and still be helpful in RvR.

Craywulf
Guest
Craywulf

Arrobee Well I appreciate you taking the time to dig up information regarding GW1. You got the gist of it, but restrictive skill tree isn’t going save the fact that 30 classes, no matter how unique there are too many classes.  The sheer quantity is the problem that it’s going face. The restrictive nature is going create aa strong biased as to which classes are viable. Theres barely a game can make 8 classes equally viable, so I really dont know what makes CSE think they can make 30 classes viable. I admire their confidence, but beyond that I really think they are piling on more than they can handle. I guess we’ll have to wait and see.

Arrobee
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Arrobee

Craywulf I had a hard time understanding this comment and the following conversation. I read it again and then googled GW1 because I’ve never played it. I’m of the impression that GW1 had a system that allowed any character to eventually learn any PvP ability, and then mix&match to create their own kit. Which, sounds nothing like what they are proposing with CU.
In fact, it’s the exact opposite. They want to LIMIT the skill trees/paths per class, and split them into MORE classes and archetypes. I understand your concern, but I find it unsupported when concerned with what CU is trying to accomplish with their system. They aren’t allowing a player to pick and choose among all the abilities of the game, they are taking a class that would have had 4-5 skill paths, and turning it into 2-3 classes with 1-2 skill paths. They will be fine tuning the class against it’s own thematic kit, so whatever issues GW1 had, doesn’t sound like it will be an issue with CU.

**I’ve based most of this post off of the GW1 wiki as it is now that I quickly skimmed, if anything is incorrect with your recollection, I assume it changed, or I read it wrong. Probably the latter.**

Arrobee
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Arrobee

AilsaN10 Show me B! I want to see those healers. :D

Craywulf
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Craywulf

Ruude So you think the problem was one developer as opposed to a highly flawed system. You’re welcome to think so, but I would just as quick think you for a biased fool. As flexible as GW skillbar is, the dual classes created a massive balance issues when adding new skills (classes). It was far too open for irregularities with skill pairing. The system was flawed. No amount of balancing short of getting rid of dual classes was going fix the problem. Izzy was way over his head with no chance.

Ruude
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Ruude

Craywulf CSE isn’t using Izzy and his amazing ability to see how skills combined *cough* D/Mo was obvious *cough*  so I’ll give CSE the benefit of the doubt.

Craywulf
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Craywulf

CSE_Tyler I sincerely appreciate the direct response to my comments. I completely understand the necessity of adding new mechanics to keep the game fresh and relevant. However I am firm believer of creating a modular system than allows for additional mechanics. You can do that without 30 classes. You know there’s a philosophy that many graphic artist (my profession, retired) use apply to when creating a entirely new design…. “Less is more”. Which I think would very much apply to game design.

Can you imagine if the game monopoly had 30 game pieces with each one having a different function? Players wouldn’t know which piece to start with.

CSE_Tyler
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CSE_Tyler

Yup

CSE_Tyler
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CSE_Tyler

Yup.

CSE_Tyler
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CSE_Tyler

Remember the lines about class and realm pride? It’s important. If our players have strong opinions about classes I believe it will garner some fun gameplay. On top of that remember that we don’t want mirrored classes and “choices matter.” All of this means the class you play can’t solve every situation. However, in large scale combat, and small, keeping your friends close will be important. I personally trust mark and Ben on where they are going. There’s some fun class reveals coming up.

CSE_Tyler
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CSE_Tyler

Give the vid a watch. The goal is to make things easier to balance while being able to add new mechanics. If you’re not convinced now we hope to change your mind later. :) with a smaller team we have to work smart and not over promise as best we can.

ogged451
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ogged451

My guess (keyword! U0001f600) is that the crafter will end up equal for each realm, because I believe unbalanced crafting – except for realm flavour – would cause too many practical problems.
So one video for the crafter should suffice.

Murmillo
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Murmillo

Love it, the more the better, games doesn’t need to have all classes be perfectly balanced… As long as they buff the ones that are useless and nerf the ones that are god like, then I’m all for as much diversity as possible.

AilsaN10
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AilsaN10

I voted for B! Who’s with me?

SuppliesATK
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SuppliesATK

Mark Jacobs You know what I love about NH brah? Tax free liquor…

Anyway I voted for “D” cause it looked like one of those silhouettes had a bottle in hand.

I don’t always play alphas, but when I do… it’s CU.

Siphaed
Guest
Siphaed

Mark Jacobs 
Hmm, nope.  Never saw any response and no email notification for a reply (inbox or spam box). Does seem weird.  I wonder if that was when livefyre was having comment issues this past month?

schlag sweetleaf
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schlag sweetleaf

ManastuUtakata schlag sweetleaf CloakingDonkey Samizdat well played;)

PaganRites
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PaganRites

arktourosx Balance in PvP is boring, and worse, it homogenizes classes.  Class balance is a myth that has never really been done well.  SWTOR, Blizzard, have tried time and time again and they still overhaul their classes every couple years.  People always say they want class balance, but really, honestly truly, you don’t, because boring is the result.

ManastuUtakata
Guest
ManastuUtakata

Mark Jacobs 
It’s never ugly with you around. And this ain’t a Star Citizen article. Then again, CU hasn’t got disgruntled trolls claiming to bring lawsuits against it. Enjoy the vacation though! <3

PaganRites
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PaganRites

Arrobee chriskovo AilsaN10 I was just going to say this.  Don’t blame Mark for all that happened with WAR.  Although I’m sure he won’t dodge responsibility, there’s alot to the story of how things with WAR went down, and it wasn’t all Mark.

ManastuUtakata
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ManastuUtakata

schlag sweetleaf CloakingDonkey Samizdat ManastuUtakata

Craywulf
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Craywulf

30 classes sounds like chaos to balance. It’s gonna be like watching ArenaNet balance the original Guild Wars skillbar. Why not just make the game classless and just balance the skill pairing.

Foggye
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Foggye

Zariarn If it’s done right Zarian, every realm will have complain about the other two almost equally.  Each side will have it’s unique elements that make them frustrating.  Those elements give that realm identity.

When I played my Scout on DAoC, I hated Eldritches.  Stun nuke nuke nuke.  So when I played Hib, I played an Eld.   Where Savages disintegrated me.  So when I moved to Mid, I played a Savage.  Playing what you hate is can be damn fun.

chosenxeno
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chosenxeno

I don’t play PVP oriented MMOs but that’s going to make balancing their niche extremely difficult.

Mark Jacobs
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Mark Jacobs

:)
And I wasn’t even counting the crafter claasses. :)

Mark Jacobs
Guest
Mark Jacobs

2nd time trying to post this reply.
I’m confused because I swear I wrote a very lengthy response to your question. Right now it’s saying that your comment is no longer visible. It could be me/LF but I came back and posted when I said I would.
Very strange. Confused here…

SpykeDruid
Guest
SpykeDruid

Not to mention a certain game like daoc had 10 classes in Hibernia at launch… The math works out similar ;)
Druid warden bard enchanter eldritch mentalist hero champion ranger nightshade

SallyBowls1
Guest
SallyBowls1

Mark Jacobs Grats and thanks for everything.  Remember you will be much more productive if your wife does not kill you.

Siphaed
Guest
Siphaed

Mark Jacobs 
Enjoy your vacation, even if it is in New Hampshire. ;p
Now not to go off-topic, but that question pitched two weeks ago is still up-in-the-air without an answer yet.  http://massivelyop.com/2015/09/11/camelot-unchaineds-dev-team-is-shifting-focus-from-tech-to-game/#lf_comment=379062802  When back from your vaca, I’d love to get your breakdown take on that situation.  Thanks.

schlag sweetleaf
Guest
schlag sweetleaf

CloakingDonkey Samizdat schlag sweetleaf ManastuUtakata

“I’m sorry how different does something have to be until it qualifies as unique?”

schlag sweetleaf
Guest
schlag sweetleaf

CloakingDonkey Zariarn or if you played Mordred, bonedancers / necromancers/ vampiirs .Yuck.

Mark Jacobs
Guest
Mark Jacobs

FYI, as per the KS I said each player would have a number of slots that was equal to the number of classes + 1.
That still holds true. Anything less than that, for a full-price subscription game is a bit of a rip-off. FTP/BTP is different of course but for our Backers, it’s the right way to do things.

Mark Jacobs
Guest
Mark Jacobs

Folks,
Currently on vacation up in NH, so I’m not going to be able to do my usual follow-up posting or Lady J will, well, let’s just say it would get ugly. :)
OTOH, I’ll see what I can sneak in…
FYI, 30 classes is a lot, but remember, they include some that are post-launch. I’m not as BSC as some might think. :)
Mark

CloakingDonkey
Guest
CloakingDonkey

Samizdat schlag sweetleaf ManastuUtakata yes dots and debuffs that you couldn’t dispel… but mezz… and that you could run away from…

I’m sorry how different does something have to be until it qualifies as unique?

Tandor Shadewalker
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Tandor Shadewalker

ogged451 Agreed. I’ve no interest in PvP although I like the way the game is being developed and I’ve a lot of time for Mark Jacobs given the support I got from him when European WAR players were being screwed over by GOA. However, my eventual interest in CU will depend entirely on the viability of a pure crafting class. Playing that class with a view to being led into PvP will not win me over, it has to be a viable class in its own right from character creation to endgame and beyond.

CloakingDonkey
Guest
CloakingDonkey

Zariarn yep just like every Hib hated Theurgists :D

It adds immensely to the realm pride though if there are classes on the enemy realm that make you furious :P

Zariarn
Guest
Zariarn

Oh yes!  This is good news indeed.  However, I fully expect to see people complaining about certain classes being OPED.  Anyone ever remember the Shroomer Animist on DAoC?  If you weren’t Hib, you hated that class.

Greaterdivinity
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Greaterdivinity

A Dad Supreme But… MMOs are ‘social’ games. The society of that game sets the tone and ‘laws’, which is my point.
That’s not game design, that’s irrelevant. We are speaking strictly in terms of the function of the game and modes of play. If all of a sudden everyone in WoW stopped bringing resto druids, that wouldn’t mean that they can’t heal. By design, they are still perfectly capable healers and could easily be brought on. 
But why are you comparing CU PvP to Rift PvE? There isn’t any real PvE in CU.

Because CU is a game designed around PvP while Rift is designed around PvE. Comparing the PvP aspects of both games isn’t effective, as Rift was not designed around PvP to begin with and that gameplay mode receives very little attention.
If only 12 or 15 classes are going to be viable, then just use that. Don’t just say “we have hamburgers with cheese or cheese with hamburgers if you like instead”.All classes are designed with the intent of being viable. No developer takes the time to create a new class/spec and say, “well, this one is going to be useless but let’s waste all the time/money just because!”. Whether this expresses itself in the game is another issue, and is a mixture of balance (which is an ever-present problem) and social focuses outside of game design.I still don’t think ‘dozens’ of playermade specs can do the max level content in Rift that’s designed for group, and I’m not talking about the ‘elite’ players.
For experts and casual raiding? I’ve got 3 viable support builds and 5 viable dps builds on my mage alone, and could easily have more viable dps builds if I wanted to shell out for more spec slots. On my cleric I have 4 viable healing builds and could easily build a few more. My warrior has 3 viable tank builds and 4 viable dps builds and could have more. Am I going to be doing high end T2 content with all those builds? No, but I can easily get through T1 and much of T2 content with them if I wanted.but when people see I’m not a BLM trying to do Alex.. guess what? Yeah.
Again, that’s outside of the game. Developers have literally zero control over the irrational whims of players.

Arrobee
Guest
Arrobee

RicharddeLeonIII They also plan on building a dynamic(is that the word I want?) Crafter class and economy. If RvR isn’t your thing, you can always play a Crafter and ease your toes into the RvR water. It won’t take long for you to cannonball into the deep end. :D

RicharddeLeonIII
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RicharddeLeonIII

Tempting but the focus on pvp is daunting for me.

A Dad Supreme
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A Dad Supreme

Greaterdivinity A Dad Supreme
“There is nothing that prevents players from raiding with any build they’d like beyond social forces.”
=======
But why are you comparing CU PvP to Rift PvE? There isn’t any real PvE in CU.
It’s why I mentioned ESO and Rift. Both games claim thousands or millions of combinations when we all know that isn’t viable that’s the point. I’m saying I hope MJ and the CU team aren’t basically doing the same except with locked skill classes.
I still don’t think ‘dozens’ of playermade specs can do the max level content in Rift that’s designed for group, and I’m not talking about the ‘elite’ players.
Of course…sure. If someone wanted to make some crazy classes and go into a dungeon with 4 or 19 other people with crazy classes they can do that, but the point is to complete things usually and they can’t. That’s in ANY game. I can take a Thaumaturge to a raid in FFXIV by joining the duty finder, but when people see I’m not a BLM trying to do Alex.. guess what? Yeah.
There is a reason why in WoW you can take a full team of Deathknights and do a raid with no healers but can’t do that with Warlocks. There are going to be OP classes and when you’re talking just joining a ‘normal’ group for PvP or PvE, they usually aren’t going to let you do the come-as-you-are thing.

Arrobee
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Arrobee

A Dad Supreme Greaterdivinity When I think back to DAoC and WAR, I always remember seeing every class. Sure there were a few you seen more of, but everything was viable. The whole point of balancing for a game with a variable group size(instead of a 10v10 BG) means anything can be there.

A realm only has(currently planned) 10 combat archetypes. Each with their own reasons for being there(we will know for sure after all the reveals). They will each excel at something, that I have no doubt.

Greaterdivinity
Guest
Greaterdivinity

A Dad Supreme Which is why it’s kind of a farce. 
It’s not though. That’s a matter of social forces and imperfect balance, not design intent. Developers are not designing souls in Rift, for example, with the intent of having one be the “best” and the others not being used. The diversity exists and there are plenty of viable builds, but players will always find which is the optimal and use that. That’s, again, player generated, not designed into the game.
There is nothing that prevents players from raiding with any build they’d like beyond social forces. Plenty of guilds do not require optimal specs to raid, simply that players perform their roles adequately. If top guilds require specific builds, that’s on them, not the designers.
I’m comparing CU PvP to Rift PvE, as CU is PvP focused while rift is PvP focused. Rift PvP is a joke and wildly unbalanced because it’s mostly an afterthought. In Rift, classes were designed around PvE and then more or less shoehorned into PvP, the opposite appears to be the case in CU, so it would stand to reason that the biggest factors in CU will be their ability to effectively balance classes (which is a problem in every game) and social forces which exist outside of design.

A Dad Supreme
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A Dad Supreme

Silverbourne Rub some Windex on it and take some Robitussin. You’ll be okay.

Tandor Shadewalker
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Tandor Shadewalker

Arrobee paragonlostinspace Tandor Shadewalker Craw Per account, of course ;)!

A Dad Supreme
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A Dad Supreme

Greaterdivinity A Dad Supreme “Folks playing at the highest levels will always pick the optimal builds/classes for whatever they’re doing. ”
====
Which is why it’s kind of a farce. 
If you’re planning on raiding in games with ‘flexible’ specs like this, there is only the illusion of flexibility at endgame (which comes two months into most games) where if you show up for something, you’ll get laughed out of the party.
Of course you can level up and do piddling small content with just about any build, usually because mobs are stupid and content is designed to be easy on the way up.

wpDiscuz