Massively Opinionated: Which is the best open-world PvP, WvW or FFA?

So far Massively Opinionated has kept its questions rather broad, but wouldn’t it be interesting to examine one title that has a particular take on a certain mechanic and pit it against another game with a different take on the same mechanic? That is what MO did today. It took the PvP in Guild Wars 2 and pitted it against the PvP in EVE Online. And our panelists are Tina Lauro, representing GW2, and Brendan Drain, representing EVE.

The rules are simple: our host, Larry Everett, sent four questions to the panelists and asked them to create an argument based around their answers to these questions. Whoever has the best argument will win a point, and the panelists with the most points at the end will win the show.

This week’s questions

1. This first question is simple: WvW or total open-world?

2. Which game has the best death penalty?

3. Big spaceship or big dragon?

4. Using your game as suite of features, add three features to the other person’s game to make it better. (The person with the best overall improvements will get the point.)

This week’s panelists

Tina Lauro
Twitter: PurpleTinaBeans
Website: Predestination

Bendan Drain
Twitter: Nyphur
Website: Predestination

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89 Comments on "Massively Opinionated: Which is the best open-world PvP, WvW or FFA?"

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Zennie
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Zennie

“Fully open PvP with 0 consequences beyond dying”
Hm, so if your ship turns into a wreck and you have to buy, fit and bring to the battlefield a new one, does it count as “0 consequences”?
I agree with the dragon part, feel free to google “Wurm Online”, which is basically EVE in medieval settings ;-)

Foggye
Guest
Foggye

1. Neither.  I prefer RvR games.  I loved DAoC, and I even enjoyed WAR.  ESO was way too mirrored for me to even care.  Although, some of the things that EVE has done sounds simply amazing.

2. Anything pre-WoW. 

3. Big Spaceship.  Seen too many big dragons, so big spaceships hasn’t been worn out for me.  Particularly if that have a naval appeal to them.

4. I’d say take WAR, actually make all six races their own side, put in the DAoC-like Frontier, and good server/net code and you could had a great game.

Foggye
Guest
Foggye

Craywulf Ultimately, I think it came down to mainly to identity.  It was the first real MMO to feature 3 distinct sides.  Each one of those realm had it’s own aesthetic, theme, races and classes.  For instance, an Albion tank had platemail, and could use polearms.  While your Midgard one only wear chain, but had more weapon skill, and their skill lines allowed them to effectively switch between 1h and 2handed weapons.  Some realm got mechanics that the others didn’t get.   Knowing that your race, and class choice was unique to the side you were playing on, helps you identify with playing on that realm and you become invested into the lore, dungeons, keeps, players, guilds, alliances, monsters, and successes of your realm.

Also RvR isn’t just raw PvP.  It’s Realm vs. Realm.  The entirely of one part of a population is pit against other two.  While some were dominate, sometimes the other two would silently work against the dominate one.  Nothing was said any forum, or chat channel to do this.  It was a simple matter of you hating the dominate realm vs. the other guy; so it didn’t need to be said.  That helped some balancing issues.  Do to players have some pride in their realm, most of the time, a major keep would be defended.  In the case of a relic raids or defenses; players would drop what they’re doing to get into the conflict.  You ever see what it’s like when 200-300 players hash it out?  Hell in some cases, the battles involved over 1000 players.

Another thing it did well, for the most part, wast that you could find success with zerg, group, and solo playstyles.  Of course, the smaller the number, the higher potential for reward.  Group on group action was common place, and some very good groups could even severely damage or wipeout the zerg.   On occasion, some soloists or duos could do the same to a group.  

Last was the progression.  It had your typical levels, and back in the early parts of the game leveling was very challenging.  When you got 50, you got congrat’d.   That was an ACHIEVEMENT.  Then you could go into the RvR Zones (which were huge, and there were 3 of them, one of each realm.  Go to another realm, and you’re essentially invading.)  Although, the RvR progression system was damn near exponential.  The time it could you to go from RR5 to RR6, some could goto from RR1 to RR5, so on and so forth.  It took years to get to the max rank.  Not many players achieved that.  Because of the nature and numbers behind that progression, you did have an edge with that RvR progression, but someone rarely low could catch up to the point to where you may have a year’s more progression, you still have advantage, but it could be slight in comparison.  So it was rewarding to those that did it, but it did also allow newer players to climb up fast enough to be effective.

ApathyCurve
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ApathyCurve

Warhammer Age of Reckoning had the best open world PvP I’ve ever played.  GW2 never interested me, either as PvP or PvE; tried it, fell asleep.  Same with GW1, so far as that goes.  There’s something about ArenaNet’s game design philosophy that just completely turns me off.  I’d rather stare at drying paint.

BilfordWimbley
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BilfordWimbley

Craywulf There were reasons behind the RvR in DAoC and politics. There are three realms; Hibernia (Irish mythos), Midgard (Norse mythos), and Albion (Arthurian mythos). Each realm had the same abilities (i.e. AoE spells, AoE DoT spells, tank abilities…) but they were divided up differently between classes in each realm. So an assassin in Albion was not the same as one in Hibernia. Their basic setup (high burst DPS) was the same, but how each class went about it was different. Aside from that each realm had relics at a relic fort. There was a magic relic and a melee relic each giving +10% damage to the damage type associated with each relic. There were then I think 10 keeps in your frontier that you could hold. Each keep was tied to a certain number of relic fort guards. So, if another realm took your keep, your relic fort lost some guards. A guild could claim a keep and upgrade it based on their “guild RvR experoence points” individuals would earn towards their guild. DAoC had seige weapons also as in order to take a keep you needed to break down the front gate and kill the lord of the keep. There were also stealther groups that could take keeps if they were good enough because there were points on the keep walls where assassin classes could climb into it. Guilds that claimed keeps would get a broadcast message when their keep was being hit. It would require a lot of coordination and guilds had alliances to help defend the keeps. Basically it benefitted your realm to keep/retrieve your relics or another realm’s relics. There were class imbalances in realms and FOTM classes. I ran a pure healing Druid in Hibernia and had a blast. Camelot Unchained is basically a spiritual successor to DAoC. It is still in development and Beta is expected to be early 2016. It may be revisionist history, but the game had so many facets to it and it was fun to just run around and get into fights in the Frontier. Oh, Frontiers were the PvP areas. PvE areas were pretty much safe from invasion, it happened once or twice that I remember, and you went through Frontier gate then a Milegate, each with a bunch of guards to get out to your frontier. Check out Camelot Unchained if that sound slike fun. CU is going to be strictly PvP (RvR) and housing and items will all be player crafted. Housing will use a voxel system where crafters can build their own custom buildings. Oh, and crafters are just that, crafters. So you will need a dedicated crafter in your guild if you want anything to get done/built.

BilfordWimbley
Guest
BilfordWimbley

Aricin Werd…

BritoBruno
Guest
BritoBruno

FFA on a dedicated server for it.
WvW is a good concept but fightning on the same map for years is boring as hell.
I imagine how cool GW2 would be, if all the 60+ maps were open pvp with faction wars, in a PvP server, of course.

Esoteric Coyote
Guest
Esoteric Coyote

Depends on the player.  Some what open world pvp, some want WvW.  Me?  On paper it would be WvW or AA castle battles (which I’ve never seen but we are talking the concept.)  The idea that you can have massive siege battles and fight to death is pretty awesome.  And a hard won or lost battle is one of the best feelings in a MMO.  But the problem comes up where you can’t really force that situation.  It has to happen naturally and most of them it’s slapping empty castles for points or getting rained down on by more siege than is humanly possible to counter.  That balance is rare.  It’s such a fine line between fun and getting curb stomped.

FeveredDreamer
Guest
FeveredDreamer

1. WvW and open world PvP offer very different things, most importantly I think WvW is way more open to casual players.  Though I love open world PvP I think it scares plenty of good folks away from games. I’ll always prefer open PvP with meaning (one of the biggest things missing from GW2) but I don’t know that the WvW vs. open world issue is innately tied to the lack of meaning.

2. While I totally respect Tina’s stance regarding death penalties, I’d say on the other hand that death having no bite really only works in games like GW2 (and even there it can be frustrating at times).  While I (like Brendan) loved the PvP in Age of Conan, it says a bunch I think how hit or miss those types of games are.  I mean I’m looking forward to games like Crowfall, Black Desert & Camelot Unchained but those types of games really bar some MMO players from palying.

Lhumierre
Guest
Lhumierre

Total Open World PvP. Guild Wars 2 turned WvWvW into a super casual follow the exp train cooperation between servers. People literally will run in a circle in perfect unison with whatever other server they are “against” and cap points one after another. It’s fucking rediculous