The Daily Grind: How should MMOs repurpose older content?

Recently World of Warcraft introduced Mists of Pandaria timewalking dungeons, which allowed me (believe it or not) to experience these dungeons for the very first time. What can I say? I wasn't there for this era.

I actually think that the whole timewalking concept is pretty neat because it always bugs me that MMOs seem to abandon older content when they keep adding new zones, new dungeons, and new expansions. There's so much potential to reuse areas and systems, and one would think that such repurposing would be cost-effective for the dev team as well.

What do you think? How should MMOs repurpose older content? What would you like to see happen with the long-neglected areas in your game?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today's Daily Grind!
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50 Comments on "The Daily Grind: How should MMOs repurpose older content?"

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Little Bugbear

I think re-using old content helps to remind people how large MMO worlds really are. So often we MMO gamer's get moved to new end game zones never to return to areas of our past adventures. This leaves our worlds feel much smaller and less alive as a whole. I think sending us back to redo old dungeons, to quest in old zone or to gather items for crafting helps players enjoy an explore the vast world's in MMOs.

Reader
luxundae

Combat is the hardest thing to deal with here.

For gathering and crafting, it makes sense both in the game world and in game mechanic terms to spread the resources you need out over the world as a whole. No reason why those little peaceblooms you find in the starting town can't be used in a high level potion. No reason why you can't have extremely difficult and high level ore mining in your starting town with the understanding that you'll have to come back for it later. And the major cities would, in real life, be the major crafting hubs. No normal need to only do high level crafting at a specific forge in the depths of a dungeon somewhere. The recipes and trainers can be spread out in interesting places and your sense of advancement can come from advancing your own skill, building up your own mercantile establishment and crafthall in the city somewhere, and increasing non-crafting skills to the point where you can survive an exploration of old ruins out in the wastes somewhere to find an ancient scroll of alchemy or some such from which you can learn new recipes.

Similarly, for things like The Secret World's investigation missions or Vanguard's (I think it was them...) political and diplomatic advancement, there's no reason that can't exist anywhere in the game world, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to survive there in combat terms. You can scale the rewards of these missions by character level, I suppose, but there's no reason why a high level character wouldn't return to an earlier zone to participate in a new investigation or to try and negotiate a lucrative contract at the local viscount's monthly banquet.

I think the problem comes in when the games are 90% about combat. You want that to feel difficult and dangerous, so you need areas that are honestly difficult to survive in. But you also want to feel a bit like you're slowly turning into a demigod as you advance, so you want older areas that you substantially overpower. You could theoretically do this in a Darksouls approach where you learn how to overpower an area by learning its monsters and mechanics to the point where you can trivially win most of the fights. But such an approach would probably excise about 80% of the MMO player base, which relies on *characters* increasing in ability much more than *players* doing so.

So I think the real answer is...it's fine to have content out there that starts hard and gets easy, and I think that a big part of advancement is the excitement of both barely surviving the hard parts and reveling in blowing through the easy parts...but if you want to keep most of the game world populated and visited and used throughout the life of the game, the big thing you can do is provide other fun and interesting things to do other than combat, and then *avoid linking them to combat advancement* (i.e. don't insist that all the most useful herbs and metals only come from caves guarded by dragons...why would that make sense?). Have those other things center around the civilized parts of the game world (traditionally the lower level areas), as crafting and farming and home building and politics and criminal investigations and conspiracies and mercantile pursuits and all the rest usually would in a real world!

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Michael18

I just want to add that in order to keep old content relevant you do not necessarily need scaling. You can keep old zones relevant without employing any form of level scaling (by mixing high-level content into lower level zones, for example).

imo, the main purpose of content/character scaling is to make it easier for people to play together.

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Dread Quixadhal

One of the problems with old zones is that unless you have a World of Warcraft sized player base, they become empty. My attitudes have changed quite a bit from my early days of playing text MUDs to now. Back then, the idea of giving every player race their own starting zone was cool... each player would get their own little story-line and set of challenges and then eventually meet up in the mid-level areas.

HORRIBLE IDEA!

WoW did this too, and look at the result. People log in and can't do their own newbie content if they want to play with their friends who picked a different race and are starting halfway across the world. Anyone remember the fun of running a level 1 dwarf through the wetlands to go play with your friend who rolled an elf?

Even now, WoW has some really nice cities which are mostly unused and empty because of this. My favorite cities in the game are Ironforge and Silvermoon. Ironforge is busy at Christmas for that holiday event. Silvermoon is busy in the spring for that holiday event. At every other point, the only people you see are low level folks who are leveling their alts through questing.

What I would love to see is a Guild Wars 2 style level scaling, where you are scaled DOWN to match the content you are in, but not UP. In that way, you can still wander into tough areas to see if you can handle it, but can also still do quests and story-lines from older zones without just stomping through them.

What I would ALSO like to see is scattering of higher level content throughout the lower level zones, and yes... the cities too. Give people a reason to go revisit those older zones, instead of constantly adding new areas and leaving the old ones to rot.

In many ways, we can blame the dungeon finder for this. In vanilla, you had to go to the dungeon entrances yourself, and thus you'd always see people of all levels running through the zones, and on a PvP server would often have pretty cool battles outside the dungeons or battleground entrances amongst the people waiting for their team, or waiting for the battleground to start.

Once the dungeon finder was in, people leveled through a zone and had no reason to ever go back there. It turns the game from a huge open world into a lobby.

TL;DR version.... keep players together. Don't divide them up or isolate them. If you have to have levels, ensure that content of various level ranges happens in the same places, and that people always want and need to travel around the world you've built so they feel like a part of it.

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Van

One of my least favorite feelings is leveling through a zone for a few hours, just for it to never be experienced ever again. These emotional ties that we create to these experiences are just abandoned often times.

FF14 does a decent job of scattering content in a more natural feeling way, rather than just quest hub to quest hub jumping.

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Dug From The Earth

depends on the content.

I often miss all the unvisited zones in mmos after the game has been out for awhile. Cata sucked for WoW, but the part i did enjoy was the revamp of ALL the old vanilla zones. It prompted me to play through them all again, and it was great.

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Manastu Utakata

"Legendaries now have a 15% chance of dropping of those lv 10 Murlocs in Elwynn Forest!"

...err, just kidding! >.>

styopa
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styopa

Ghetto'ing players and into zones-by-level is one of the more pernicious things WoW established as a standard (they weren't the first, of course).
Sure, it makes content easier to segregate, and makes sure that - particularly in PVE/PVP mixed games - players are likely to 'stumble on' opponents that are comparably-powered.

But it's:
- unrealistic. One of the key 'features' about a real-feeling world is that there's some content you need to run-the-hell-away from because it will kick your butt. Latterly, WoW decided they did in fact need this, having things like the astonishingly-sneaky King Mosh wandering Un'goro, or Fel Reavers stomping around Hellfire. But they have seemed to drift away from any content now that can't be solo'd at-level...which is sad.
- unnecessary, if you simply had a pvp system that - against other players only - scales to some unified level so PVP is pure skill. Sure, higher level toons will have accumulated more abilities and have more things like cc's, but in damage output, players could easily be level-equalled
- led to this article: precisely as Justin points out, the moment you say "this zone" (or instance) is for level 30-35, then after 35, it's a ghost town - there's no reason at all to come back.

Fortunately, the WoW timewalking thing might have been a bit of a test for them to make it a more widespread thing? How did people like it? Were the drops adequate to the bosses' difficulty?

Personally, going back and playing Vanilla wow, I'm finding that players could really use some more practice against tough content all the time.

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Vunak

I always liked the way FFXI made players interact with the zones throughout the world. You may be leveling through a zone and look off from the mob you are facing down in your group only to see this massively high leveled/geared party scream past you with a purpose of their own in the same zone.

I remember having lowbies whisper me as I was running through Qufim Island to the Behemoth's Dominion or Delkfutts Tower to ask what we were doing then having them excited to get to that content themselves.

You may not have been going through and doing old content again but you were still interacting with zones you had visited previously for new adventures. Sometimes I would run by a group and just power level them randomly on my Paladin while waiting for the rest of my group to gather. It added a nice layer to the game that kept lower and higher level players together on some level.

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Sleepy

"Tours of Qeynos Catacombs every hour. Visit the forgotten adventuring grounds!"

Line
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Line

Scaling is the obvious solution for themeparks, but it's a bit more complicated than that. It's mostly a matter of point... and in MMOs, that means loot.
Some games have viable and working models (GW2, ESO...), but stumble around because there's not always a point to the old content: if you get XP and level appropriate loot that's nice and all but... why come here specifically?
You really need good reasons to keep zones/instances in what would be "the meta", else people will just flock to the highest money making place.
Unique mounts, pets, skins are sorely needed; but pushing for the economy is the most viable and the easiest to fix when needs be. When a patch add new recipes requiring, say, low level platinum ore, zones with veins of platinum and loot to recycle into platinum would become much more viable. GW2 is doing that but... there's no reliable way to get specific mats. Do something with the damn map rewards.

The entire loot system is kinda broken in most modern MMOs, as you get gear and/or level appropriate mats, with ever growing needs to create new ressources to replace the old ones, rather than expand.
There's no reason for old stuff to be useless, and that doesn't even need scaling. Just an healthy market that is not made to be disposable levelling trash. If my max level food buff ask for beef, I should be able to use cows from the starting area. Sure, maybe add high level spices or something, but don't restrict me to the latest level of legendary cow warlocks for the meat. Keep things around for more than a single use.

Content needs to be seen as just another brick to build the game with in the future, not made with an expiration date and reheated in a microwave later.
That could be said for everything, not only for items and zones but story too...

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zoward

I'd like to see optional level scaling. Want to run the vanilla WoW dungeons at level 90 and get both experience and usable loot? Great! Want to run one 100 times at max level trying to score a rare mount drop? Got you covered as well!

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Arktouros

After going back and trying ESO after One Tamriel gotta say GW2 was hands down a vastly better implementation of the scaling system. This isn't really surprising since GW2 had it designed in from the start but still limiting content you can do is good because it lets them designed the content to what a person of that level should reasonably have character development wise while still making the lower level content relevant. ESO feels like an afterthought where they basically just set all the content to max and then implemented their Cyrodill scaling everywhere.

GW2 had the right of it going forward as well, with many of their living season 1 events occurring in existing zones that drove people to them. I got a good portion of my world completion done simply doing those events in zones I hadn't given a second thought to. This drove you to those zones and in a few cases even redesigned old content into newer content. Unfortunately this is a trend they've moved away from.

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Schmidt.Capela

"""Unfortunately this is a trend they've moved away from."""

If the trend you are mentioning is having limited time, non-repeating events in the old zones, then I'm very glad devs moved away from it.

But then, my whole reasoning for playing video-games instead of going for other kinds of entertainment is that video-games are repeatable; I get to repeat the same experiences I liked whenever I want, be it a day or a decade from when I first experienced it. Any game that intentionally tries to break away from that model is a game I'm quite unlikely to even bother with in the first place. And while I make a partial exception for MMOs, that exception only lasts as long as the devs and publisher try to keep the game running, and older content available, for as long as possible.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

Don't abandon it in the first place.

Make all of it accessible and relevant to characters of all levels and stages of progression. Hard modes of content ("veteran" or "expert" or "nightmare" or whatever) that unlock only at higher levels of progression are useful and fun to have. But the content should just be the content. Players should be able to play every part of the game, and have a reason to play every part of it, from day 1 to day 101 or 1,001, no matter what their current progress or goals.

As games like ESO and SWTOR have proven, there is no good reason to tie content only to certain levels or phases of development of the game. The only reason developers keep doing it is because it's been done that way before and they never stopped to think about not doing it. And when you bother to not do it, the result is that the game feels like a whole new bigger, better, more lasting world.

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Esoteric Coyote

Scaling. Scale the content, scale the rewards. Also cosemetics and collectibles are options too.

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Loopy

There are two options in my opinion:
ESO model: you scale to the content around you, ensuring that the challenge is always there, and activities you're performing are relevant to your "progression" at any given time. Why is "progression" in quotes? Well, what are you really progressing towards, if everything always scales? In my opinion, this is the inherent flaw of the scaling system - you never feel like you're getting stronger.

FFXIV model: Each zone has sections geared towards varying power levels. So one zone will have areas with lvl 12 mobs, but if you cross that bridge, or climb those steps, you're now in the lvl 38 range of mobs within the same zone. Additionally, phasing system that FFXIV utilizes ensures that you're never really outleveling a zone, as there is always more things to add to existing geography to keep it current. Downside - players may get tired of constantly going back to the same zones, and sometimes change in scenery is definitely desired.

I personally prefer FFXIV model, as i really do enjoy going back to the same zones i've leveled way back as a noob, and seeing all the younglings running around.

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Eddie Yasi

But there is still a sense of progression in ESO. A scaled low-level person can survive in any zone now, but it takes them a lot longer to get through a battle than someone who is Champion XXX level and can mow right through the same mobs.

Someone higher level has many more abilities at their disposal as well, so the sense of having a more powerful character can come from that too.

And, combat is not the only area it's possible to progress in: there is a clear sense of progression for anyone who is a crafter. And, earning gold/materials is another area that a player can get a sense of progress from: having enough materials and crafting experience to create that cool new table blueprint you just got, or finally being able to afford that medium-sized house.

Yeah, the sense of "Ooooo now I can go to this zone without dieing immediately" is gone, but there's still lots of meaningful ways to feel your character becoming more capable that give you reasons to go out and adventure.

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Loopy

Agreed, progression is still there, just less emphasized. And to be honest i prefer it that way in some way. I mean comparing an achievement of finishing a challenging quest with just plowing through the steps, it's obvious what feels more rewarding.

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7BitBrian

Not to discount ESO, but I love how this is referred to as the "ESO method", when games like GW2 were doing it long before ESO, and other games did it before GW2 did. It really should be called the Scaling Method, not the "insert game here" method.

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Loopy

Didn't mean to discount other games that have been doing the same method before ESO, it's just that ESO is something i'm familiar with so i'm using it as an example. I'm sure FFXIV is also not the only game that does zones with multiple power level portions.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

The "ESO Method" is something entirely different than GW2's level squashing. ESO allows you to go anywhere and do anything from the start, but you can access harder modes of some things later as you progress. It has a lot more in common with certain single-player titles (notably, Skyrim) than it does with GW2.

GW2 does very little to make old parts of the game world relevant, and what it does, doesn't amount to much. You're still limited at low levels to low level zones, railroaded through a series of zones at increasing level ranges, and have basically no reason to ever go back, other than "seeing the sights" at some point (i.e., World Completion). The only thing that level squashing does is prevent you one-shotting low level mobs while running around with a high level character (but with your higher level tool set, you still two or three-shot them anyway).

Gathering doesn't scale (or it didn't the last time I played, which was a while ago), so most of the resources available in low level zones are irrelevant to high level players. And the few types of lowbie content that were attractive for high level players to farm (e.g., Champ Trains), were systematically nerfed into irrelevance, and no longer are of interest to anyone.

At max level, all of your activity still is confined to a handful of designated endgame farm zones for grinding out points and mats, and 90% of the massive game world is of zero interest to most players, most of the time, other than the daily rotating pick up missions that were added recently.

The only real difference is that, unlike in most games, while leveling you're not shoved into the next area quite as hard when things to grey to you. But you still have very little reason to hang around or ever to go back, and you don't have the option to go anywhere and do anything from the start.

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Michael18

tl;dr
ESO scales up and down
GW2 only scales down

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7BitBrian

It's very obvious you haven't played in a long while.

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Tandor

What's changed from the way that Polyanna describes it?

mosselyn
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mosselyn

Not a darned thing, though I'd disagree that lower level resources aren't relevant. They're both needed and costly. However, most people farm gold and buy what they need rather than go after it themselves.

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Schmidt.Capela

The difference between ESO and GW2 is that GW2 only scales players down, while ESO works both ways. Thus, a newbie in GW2 only has the newbie zones to play, while a newbie in ESO has the whole map at his or her disposal.

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Craig Sharp

My current obsession - The Secret World - does this quite well. Effectively, almost every quest in game is replayable, and they award an end game currency (Black Bullion). Provided there's a good story there to be had in the first place, it could be as simple as that.

borghive
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borghive

I think this is one of the biggest flaw with most MMOs, especially themeparks like WoW. I think the Gw2 and ESO models are the way to go, level scaling is, in my opinion, almost vital to a modern MMO these days, since players just consume content at an alarming pace. Having players confined to an single expansion or a single patch like WoW does, really limits the amount of content that is available.

mosselyn
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mosselyn

I think GW2 had the right idea in many ways, but did not carry through on it.

Downscaling prevents you from one-shotting things, but you're still pretty darned OP.

Also, they do not keep up with adjusting world boss and dungeon encounters to account for power creep, so a lot of content that ought to still feel challenging and relevant is just a boring joke, IMO.

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Crow

I'd love to see an approach with levels (maybe lots of them) which also has a very short power-curve. We get focused on the idea of level-scaling and the like, but what if that were unnecessary to begin with because the, say, TTK between a level 10 and a level 100 is the difference of .5 seconds instead of 30 second fight vs. insta-kill. You'd likely need to have a far less stratified mob placement, with a zone having wild boars (for the lowbies) and annoying kobolds (for the middies) and a cave system leading to a hobgoblin's lair complete with elite guards for higher level players. I think BDO comes somewhat close to this idea insomuch as their crafting mats and general loot drops aren't that bound to the level of mob as much as a tiny rng chance.

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Zen Dadaist

I'm a big fan of allowing earlier game stuff to have a relevant purpose in later game, provided it's not made mandatory. If you've had to spend the last 50 levels in a couple of zones and a dungeon, then it's nice to NOT feel like you can never actually escape those zones and that dungeon because once outlevelled there's something else that forces you back.

It also has to be balanced such that a group of endgame geared characters aren't going to wreck the lower level place and experience for newer players who are legitimately going through for the first time. I'd rather see better interaction design to prevent the latter from happening by natural means than by artificially forced down-levelling. The way Rift incentivises mentoring down for lower level zone events by the way it doles out rewards is a good example. Sure you can stay at 70 with all your raidphats and 3-shot the boss but you won't get jack for it.

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

If the content scaled to the players, or the players scaled to the content, there would be no need to repurpose anything, as all content would be relevant.

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MesaSage

Who needs timewalking. Just run the thing in your underwear.

quark1020
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quark1020

Yes, I think older content should be kept relevant, even if its just for group finders and loot currencies. It makes the higher level players interact with lower level players and it gives everyone a larger pool of content to grind end game with. So long, of course, they keep adding more new content. Its not an excuse for the devs to get lazy...

FFXIV has the best systems in that regard, so far. FFXIV gives the player end game currencies by joining random dungeons in their group finder and allowing players to scale down to join the random zone quests in zones. SWTOR tries by scaling the player's level down to the planet's level, allowing them to join in repeatable group quests for currencies, but so far as I know, it game doesn't scale levels in earlier lfg dungeons and there is no way to turn off the level scaling in planets.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

just use the downgrade system GW2 has. problem solved.

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Veldan

That would be a highly unoptimal way to "solve" the problem. If you're going to adjust people's levels all the time to scale them to content... why have levels in the first place? It would be much more intuitive for the players, and easier for the devs, to entirely remove levels, or make them unlock new abilities but remove all power-up aspects of them.

Also, GW2 had terrible scaling, you were still far too powerful when playing low level content on a high level character.

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Schmidt.Capela

"""It would be much more intuitive for the players, and easier for the devs, to entirely remove levels, or make them unlock new abilities but remove all power-up aspects of them. """

I would certainly vote for this. It's my longstanding opinion that character levels, and in a more generic way vertical power progression, do more harm to MMO than the paltry benefits they bring warrant.

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7BitBrian

GW2 originally had no levels, thats why everything scaled to you. But players couldn't grasp it and needed that "leveling" carrot on a stick experience or they felt like they were not progressing. So they added levels back in.

I would be totally fine with no levels at all, but I also recognize that I am in the minority of players in that regard, so probably is most of the MOP readership. The fact is data shows most players need those levels for some reason.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

because mmo players are still living in the past and need something they can "finish". and the most trivial thing for everyone is to get to level cap.

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Crow

because mmo players are still living in the past and need something they can "finish". and the most trivial thing for everyone is to get to level cap.

Eh, older titles had a far more diverse approach to "progression" and "finishing" than we see in the raid-era and later, and the idea of the "endgame" we know now didn't really coalesce until WoW exploded and really codified the idea. There were certainly straight power-progression games, but the concept of "oh now I do dungeons, now I do the next tier of dungeons, now I do raids" with a clear line of progression wasn't quite the norm. Raiding and higher level progression absolutely existed and was full of problems, but WoW's highly step-by-step linear approach to endgame which sought to fix the issues with EQ raiding also had the effect of pretty much cementing ideas about stepped vertical endgame progression (and a leveling experience that mirrors that kind of progression) into the genre in a really deep way.

As a kind of example, even in certain high-progression games there was an almost unattainable max level that most players only dreamed of seeing. The game was highly level-based but the sheer size of the level range meant that players would be "always leveling" in a way that actually de-emphasizes the importance of one's level in a way that the "max level is attainable and then you go endgame" does not. The idea of the attainable max level is limiting because it admits that levels are kind-of a problem in the first place. The GW2/ESO OT scaling approach is one way to address this and works pretty well, but you can also go the other direction and make that leveling process into something so large it is rare for people to actually "finish".

Accessible endgame is cool, but it also encourages the kind of game jumping that happens when a game gets boring. You level quick then slow down immensely at endgame and then... you just hit a wall where slow progression and lack of content just draws eyes elsewhere. There's room for all kinds, but historically the emphasis on endgame and max level really became a constant only after WoW.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Devs should get rid of levels and leveling altogether. Just like that. It bring tons of problems including the biggest one: outdated deserted zones that noone cares about. As I said before - leveling system is #1 worst outdated thing of MMO genre.

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7BitBrian

That has been tried multiple times and it always seems to fail. GW2, for example, originally had no levels at all. But through testing they learned the average player needed that carrot on a stick leveling system to feel as if they were progressing. Fact is you, I, and most of the MOP readership are in the minority on this, data consistently shows that the average MMO player wants and needs levels.

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TheDonDude

I think you could do some sort of hybrid. For example, at level 1 you're restricted to a couple zones fighting wolves and bandits or whatever. Then at level 10 a few new zones open up, letting you fight soldiers and, I dunno, dire wolves and stuff. Eventually at level 50 you gain access to the zones where all the dragons hang out. But the old zones keep scaling with you so they're never irrelevant. I think GW2 did something like this?

Thus you get both the sense of progression, but don't get the old deserted zones.

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Oleg Chebeneev

And how exactly level 1 zone becomes relevant after you reached level 50 and fought dragons? What you offer isnt any different from how it works now. Id like fantasy MMO implement world working like in EVE Online where no matter how powerful or old your character is, every location can be useful.

They can semi-fix this in WoW by scaling everything to character's level. Phasing technology allows this

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Veldan

GW2 didn't scale the zones, they scaled the characters. And it was a horribly flawed system. If you go to a low level zone with a high level character you'll still be stupidly overpowered.

Disclaimer: I haven't played in a while, it's possible things have changed, but what I described was at least true in the first few years of GW2

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TheDonDude

Personally I have zero problem with older content being re-used. However to do it right...
1. Ensure there's a significant gap between the content being relevant and when it's being returned (WoW's Timewalking does this right. SWTOR's raiding does not)
2. Ensure the content is updated and modernized where needed, even to the point of only re-using the maps (CoH's various future Atlas Parks, SWTOR's Attack on Tython/Korriban do this well)
3. Ensure the content is mixed in with brand new stuff and isn't the main feature (WoW's timewalking does this well. SWTOR does not)

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BalsBigBrother

If you follow the One Tamriel route as used by The Elder Scrolls Online then your content is always viable no matter what a players level is or how old the content is. Players can go play where they like and the dev team won't need to repurpose.

It will also allow the devs the freedom to place new content anywhere within the world regardless of how old an area is rather than having to create specific new areas (though new areas are nice too). Seems like a win all round to me.

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Veldan

Your last point is a huge advantage of this way of designing. Devs can add to older zones and towns.

At some point, a gaming world is simply big enough, and expanding it is no longer desirable. Aion even started deleting zones because of this. I think it would be great if this "zone bloat" could be reduced or even eliminated by devs updating existing zones instead of endlessly creating new ones.

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Rick Mills

It will probably never happen, for mostly sensible reasons, but I'd love to see the level-agnostic standard applied to ALL of Azeroth. I would totally level all the way up to 110 in the old world, spending all my time in old content.
Sure we'd miss the latest storyline developments - but if you've seen them on 2 or more toons, do we need to see it again?

wpDiscuz