Massively Overthinking: MMOs, from hardcore to casual and back again

Massively OP reader Suikoden wrote this great question to the podcast — too good to let just Justin and me answer it. It’s a two-parter!

“Back when I used to be a hardcore MMO gamer circa 2000-2010, I felt that MMOs of that era were designed more toward the hardcore gamer and even catered to us more. Within the last 5 years, I’ve had to develop into more of a casual player. However, I now feel that games once again cater to me and my current playstyle. Did the MMO genre evolve alongside me, from a more hardcore-centric genre to a more casual playerbase? Or is it the same as it always was and I just feel that it caters to me because it’s designed to feel like it caters to all playstyles? And if there was a change, do you feel it is for the better or for the worse for the genre?”

I posted Suikoden’s questions to the team for this week’s Massively Overthinking!

Andrew Ross (@dengarsw): I’m going to disagree. I feel like early MMOs were aimed more at casuals, in that they didn’t feel as competitive. Yes, you still had people going after server and world firsts, but I felt like the games were designed more with exploration in mind. We didn’t have quest hubs (or such obvious quests), not due to laziness, but to get people to look for things to do in the game world. We had less hand holding, not because it was hardcore, but because it allowed players to seek adventure rather than be given a list of chores. While that list can be comforting, when it because the mainstay of gameplay, things get stale.

The hardcore emphasis, in my opinion, came into the mainstream MMO (because PvP players tend to be fairly hardcore within their own community) with World of Warcraft. WoW had, what, one or two new 5 man dungeons, but was constantly creating new raid experiences, and they weren’t the kind you could necessarily zerg out in the open. Since that was selling, that’s the model other games followed thinking there was a market. We’re seeing quite plainly that that isn’t the case, as we’re seeing a return to gameplay that isn’t just about raid prep but supports creativity through housing/world building, exploration, but also single player-esque story.

I think the swing back towards varied gameplay is good. I still wonder about some of the single player elements in MMOs, as it sometimes populates the world with players who mostly want to play alone unless given a huge incentive that disrespects the nature of playing together for the experience rather than the reward, but I acknowledge that those players can at least make the world feel less dead, and in rare situations, those players become the social glue the game needs down the line when more social players may follow their friends to Latest MMO 3.

Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): I never can let these kinds of questions go without questioning the meaning of words like hardcore and casual. Do we mean in terms of challenging content? Or time-consuming content? Are hardcores the people who play a lot or complete the “hardest” or endgame-est content or happily seek out the grindiest gameplay? And where do hardcore PvPers and economy warriors and people who roleplay 12 hours a day fit in? That’s not a knock on the questioner at all — just saying it’s hard to unpack.

I think the irony is that while MMORPGs offered content that was significantly more time-consuming Back In The Day, they also offered plenty of space for true casuals, though we tend to forget about it because the drama and hoopla always focuses on raiding type endgame content. I had that exprience in every MMORPG prior to World of Warcraft; I had guildies who played all day long, and guildies who logged just a few hours a week, and everybody found ways to feel accomplished and have fun, whether they were leveling or raiding or feeding vendors. The attitude toward such players was dramatically different then. The word casual didn’t carry nearly the same stigma, and the games weren’t as obsessed with rewarding specific types of play and turning casuals into hardcores because of marketing buzzwords like stickiness. When every player pays the same flat fee, you have no need to actively seek or create “hardcores.”

I’d agree that from about 2005 onward, we’ve seen an expansion of a casual middle class in MMORPG demographics that’s coincided with the rise of easy access to internet, cheaper games, and more content that is advertised as being less time-consuming in one way or another (whether it is or not). But I would also suggest that modern MMORPGs also directly cater to hardcore players with content that is significantly more challenging and gameplay that is significantly more complicated (though far less opaque) than it was two decades ago, chiefly because of improved tech and AI. There’s also been a big push in the last decade away from games that appeal to a wide spectrum of casual-to-hardcore players and toward narrow playerbase types that are frankly cheaper to build for and entice (like PvP sandboxes and heavily limited themeparks).

In other words, while there’s more casual stuff in MMOs than there used to be, part of that is because we’ve relabeled core players as casuals to better elevate hardcores, who marketers believe drive popularity, and part is because there are fewer content types overall in the biggest games. There’s also more tailored hardcore stuff than ever, and it’s in more MMOs than ever, and the hardcore stuff is way more difficult than it used to be. But this is a very general, genre-wide summary. The short answer to your question is probably none of the above; your perspective is going to be vary depending on which specific games you play and what you do in them.

Eliot Lefebvre (@Eliot_Lefebvre, blog): If you’re thinking that MMOs are designed for different time requirements at this point, that’s definitely the case. My first MMO was Final Fantasy XI, which was apparently designed for me to lose myself in it while going through an awful breakup in college that made me want to completely drop out of school. A good portion of content required one to be online 24/7, form groups of 63 other people who were also online 24/7, or both. It’s absolutely and undeniably true that games are no longer designed like that.

The thing is? That’s a good thing, because that was insane. Again, when I was playing during a period in my life when I basically had no responsibilities whatsoever, I could not maintain that kind of play schedule over the long term. The fact that I can now log in to Final Fantasy XIV (or even Final Fantasy XI with subsequent changes) and spend most of my time actually, like, playing the game is a more than welcome shift.

I disagree that it’s really about casual vs. hardcore, though; it’s really just about time spent and how much time is required for getting a shot at anything. Designers have wisely realized that people would rather play games than wait around to play games, so now we get to actually play on a reliable basis. It’s definitely for the better for the genre as a whole that we have developed to the point where games are about doing things instead of waiting around, and even some of the games coming from designers with an old-school vibe (like McQuaid’s Pantheon) are still emphasizing the idea that you should be able to get in and play rather than sitting back and waiting. So it’s a net benefit for everyone.

Justin Olivetti (@Sypster, blog): I find it useful to distinguish between hardcore play mechanics and overly complex and unintuitive game design. Games can be hard to play but easy to understand, easy to understand and easy to play, hard to understand and hard to play, and so on. Earlier on in the genre, these games were pretty hard in both categories, or at least skewing in that direction. Generally as time went on, MMOs became both easier to understand and easier to master. However, you can and do still see MMOs that have a modern design while incorporating very hardcore elements (such as WildStar at launch).

No matter what, I’m sincerely glad that MMOs have become easier to understand and play. Maybe they’ve gone a little too homogenous in this regard, but it’s nice to actually be able to comprehend systems and know how to navigate the game without requiring an external guide to sift through complex stat builds just to get started.

The challenge is still present in many MMOs if you look, and games like The Secret World make no apologies for being tougher and more challenging (both cerebrally and through combat). I know it’s a well-trod maxim, but the best MMO design is one that’s easy to learn and hard to master. Most of the popular MMOs today do hew to this, creating an easy barrier to entry while slowly teaching more complex elements for the obstacles to come. So yeah, the genre has changed, and for those that want cutting edge difficulty, it’s still out there (and is being made in games like Pantheon and Saga of Lucimia). But I’m quite glad that there’s a range and a realization that by loosening up on the high barrier to entry, you get a whole lot more people (which is one reason that World of Warcraft took off).

Larry Everett (@Shaddoe, blog): I believe that you’re right in that MMORPGs have leaned toward the casual player in later years. I considered games like Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies to be extremely grindy and to achieve even the simplest of endgame accomplishment, it took weeks of doing the same thing over and over. World of Warcraft probably contributed the most to the genre shift because of the sheer number of people playing that game. However, I would say that Aion was probably the last big title that still held onto the less-casual leveling model. (We could include Fallen Earth in there, too, but I’m not sure if that was a big title at the time.) Although some games prior to Aion were less of a grind, it was the boom of 2010 and 2011 where we hit peak MMO. So many titles launched during those years that were attempting to compete with World of Warcraft, and one of the best ways to compete, I think, was to cater more to the casual player. That meant less grind and less hardcore leveling. Now, some of the games post-2009 still had some tough, hardcore elements, but the cores of most games were targeting the casual. I believe you were shifting to a casual player at about the same time that the genre was expanding and making the same shift.

I cannot really say if it was good or bad for the genre as a whole. I mean, we saw a lot more games and a lot more variety once things started to shift. But then, we also saw a truckload of games that wanted to be the next WoW, and we saw a lot of them fail at doing so. We saw the industry boom, and MMO players were given more and more choices. But because designers and producers wanted to be the next WoW, we now see many publishers pull out of the genre. I guess it is what it is, and as long as I enjoy it, it’s good enough.

MJ Guthrie (@MJ_Guthrie, blog): I do think that the general theme of games has changed focus over the years from hardcore (when fewer people played) to more casual now (with more players). The industry is following the market, and as the market expanded there were fewer folks percentage-wise who were willing/want to be hardcore in games. That doesn’t mean there are less hardcore gamers out there, but just that their percentage of the entire gaming population has shrunk as the hobby became more mainstream. The niche (gaming) now has many niches. As a whole, the industry is still broadening and it wants to capture the attention of as many wallets as it can, so many will just use the majority as a base for developing a title. And I cannot see the majority ever being hardcore again.

That said, I do think we also tend to look for and notice games that fit within our desired play style more than those we dismiss, so if there are games out there that meet your play style, you will notice them more often. Unfortunately for me, it also works the other way: When you don’t find games that fit your play style, the absence of them is super glaring! I still have no home to call my own. *sad face*

Your turn!

SHARE THIS ARTICLE
Code of Conduct | Edit Your Profile | Commenting FAQ | Badge Reclamation | Badge Key

LEAVE A COMMENT

29 Comments on "Massively Overthinking: MMOs, from hardcore to casual and back again"

Subscribe to:
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most liked
Reader
Oleg Chebeneev

Neither. In the past developers only created games for hardcore players. No handholding, months long leveling, lots of time consuming things that were there for the heck of time consuming. Basically MMOs were for nerds who sit at their computers all days long, not for people with work and families.
Now, since genre opened so much, pretty much all MMOs (except few like Pantheon that praises itself to return to MMO roots) are made with casuals in mind. Very noob friendly, fast leveling, minimum annoying crap, maximum fun. But while developers make games accesible they also add challenges for hardcore folk: hard raids, time consuming achievements, etc, attracting all types of players.

Reader
Pedge Jameson

I’ve seen more SWG on this site then when I played the game.

Karma_Mule
Reader
Karma_Mule

I’d ask the questioner to look more closely at whether or not THEY have changed, and perhaps it is the slow evolution of their personal tastes, preferences, and what appeals to them that has also colored how recent MMOs are perceived.

Reader
rafael12104

Hmm. Well the fact is that modern MMOs have to have a wider appeal. The audience is much larger than it used to be. It is less loyal, not necessarily a bad thing. And they communicate with their money. And that money is up for grabs to the devs who have shiniest trinkets.

IMO, the old casuals versus hardcore debate is dead. The casuals, however you choose to define them, won because they have a majority. The debate now is qualitative. Can devs deliver quality, yet more general games, tht appeal to a wide cross section of the MMO market? Or, do they specialize and focus on a much smaller audience who will be more satisfied and consequently more loyal?

I choose the latter. Innovation and progress is in specialization now and not in “one size fits all”.

Reader
jay

It’s just a symptom of a greater disease in our culture today. What has been coined the instant gratification generation has permeated our MMO’s as well. Instead of exploring, spending time, and working for rewards why not have them given to you in a matter of minutes. Some will call it convenient, but it’s convenience in the say way that McDonalds is convenient. I would rather go to a 5 star steak house any day over McD’s. Yes the food takes much longer, but the end rewards are so much better. Convenience isn’t always better.

When I hire new employees for work, I somewhat dread hiring the newer graduates in the last few years. Often they expect a promotion within 6 months, and can’t understand the concept of competition, and rewards based off of effort. They expect to be patted on the back for every single thing they do at work. The same things I would call their job description. This instant gratification drive is horrid for all aspects of our culture, but sadly I don’t see it going away. The drive for it as a consumer base is too strong for businesses to ignore.

Reader
Robert Mann

MMOs went convenience. If you consider that the route of casual, then they are more casual. If you think it is something else that makes a game cater to casual, then they might not be.

This is the wrong question, in my opinion. It is convenience that has changed the portions of the MMO, making every portion of the game relatively easy. That to me isn’t casual, it is just easy mode.

Easy mode on occasion is fun, but it gets dull fast. However, mention the removal of these features and many people will be up in arms. Some of them because they legitimately like the easy style, some because they like the convenience while hating how it affects the game overall (maybe not even realizing the issue,) and some just because they can be up in arms. :)

Reader
Giannis Papadopoulos

I have a different approach for this. I think old MMOs were much better for casuals. I was always a casual and i liked old MMOs much more.

– Old MMOs had much better game worlds. The “middle game” mattered a lot instead of just the endgame.

As a casual i was able to find “challenging” gameplay in the open world and while leveling, not just dungeons and raids.

Reaching the level cap felt awesome and a great achievement. Manage to take out an elite mob in open world also felt great.

-Modern MMOs are accused to cater to casuals while they cater to hardcores.

Who wants to level as fast as possible to reach the endgame? The casual?

Who didnt want to be “forced” to have a specific profession depending his class in order to be competitive? (And then all professions stopped offering great perks). The casual?

Modern MMOs are designed to fly you as fast as possible to the “endgame” and then to “bribe” you into raiding, where the “real” game exists.

Thats how I see it anyway…

Reader
MesaSage

The term hardcore is thrown around as if we know what it actually means. I’ve read others comments and I see the same word used a variety of ways. It’s hard to tell from Suikoden’s question exactly what they mean by hardcore.

I haven’t always been a player, but I’ve been around this genre since the early days and I’ve seen examples of what one can refer to as hardcore through the entire timeline.

MMO’s are much more convenient now, and therefore open to more sorts of playstyles. Whether the convenience is built-in, or you have to pay for it is another matter. The grind is still there, if you look for it, but there are plenty of ways to avoid it and still play the game. You couldn’t always say that.

The games that MoP writers mentioned as a new generation of hardcore, are simply extracting convenience as an option.

Has it changed, sure, but it probably has more to do with how you approach it.

Reader
zoward

I found Andrew’s answer in particular to be intriguing, pointing out that many earlier MMO’s didn’t have quest hubs, leading to a less linear and more exploratory (casual?) playstyle. While I personally enjoyed that format, the problem was that people who crave rapid progression would then game the system, combing the internet for ways to get to the other end of the progression spectrum rapidly. This usually led to a few high-profile websites that cataloged where all the quests were and how to complete them, along with the best places to farm experience, gold, loot, etc. You can see the move toward streamlining the progression path in WoW with quest hubs, followed by less onerous leveling, followed by more linear quest pathing, followed by handing out (or selling!) experience levels outright. It seems like the ideal mix of progression and world-play depends on the individual player, though.

miskav
Reader
miskav

It all comes down to MMO-developers wanting to attract non-MMO players, at the expense of their original audience.

MMO’s today don’t resemble MMO’s in their prime, and it’s a sad sight indeed.

possum440 .
Reader
possum440 .

Hardcore, casual, a name for people that play too much and those that don’t have time to play.

neither is badge of honor and only kids use these terms thinking it is cool, that and adults that have not developed in the brain area yet.

games are for wasting time, entertainment, saying you have played games for over 30 years is not impressive, its you telling other people you like games entirely too much.

As for MMO’s and how gamer’s play today? Gamer’s today insult each other, they berate and accuse, they shame and they bully. Gamer’s today have been groomed well by developers to act the way they are in today’s MMO.

Today’s gamer’s worry about how another gamer gets things. Today’s gamer’s shame others for not knowing fights, for not using umpteen third party programs to “be like me”. Gamer’s today shame others for not playing like them and they attack other gamer’s if they try to get something other than an “approved” way that the gamer’s of today judge worthy in their eyes.

I have stated this before, games are for fun. MMO’s are not fun anymore and the reason is the vast majority of programmed gamer’s of today. Hardcore and casual is such garbage, but still gamer’s continue to use those terms like they mean something, like they will impress someone or that those terms give you the right to tell others how to play and how they will get items.

MMO’s used to be fun, no one used hardcore or casual and developers weren’t the utter piles of cow excrement they are now, but this is today and we have what we have. One reason I do not play MMO’s anymore, because the smell is terrible.

Reader
Veldan

I disagree. Being a hardcore gamer is a mindset, a way of playing, not an amount of time invested. I can play for 20 mins a day and be hardcore about it. Yes it’s true that you’ll find more hardcore players at the high end of the time investment spectrum, but I think you’re wrong if you take that for the definition.

I agree with the rest of your post. MMOs have definitely become less nice places to log in to, and there are many unfriendly people in the way you described. I think this is mainly because of the shift towards low-time investment play.

In the old days, nobody complained if someone wasted 5, 10 or even 15 minutes of their time. People were, mostly, happy to explain things to new people. It’s only because the devs of later MMOs said “look here guys, we have a game where you can play 30 mins a day and get all the shiny gear”, people started to expect to get everything done within 30 minutes. And then if there’s a new player around, who doesn’t have the correct rotation or addons, those players get mad… because someone is wasting their time and now they can’t get their gear, or tokens, or dailies, within their precious 30 min anymore.

borghive
Reader
borghive

More like non-mmo gamer vs mmo-gamer. Most of the changes over the years in the genre were made to attract players that really didn’t have much of an interest in MMO gaming anyway. I think that is why a lot of us old school MMO fans feel kind of jaded these days, because a lot of what made MMOs fun for us has really been marginalized over the years for the sake of accessibility.

Reader
Robert Mann

Sadly I think part of it was people pushing for their rush to endgame and devs listening… before the non-mmo gamers found an interest via WoW.

Of note, however, given the design paradigm of levels and vertical power boosts, this was bound to happen. Which is why I am looking forward to the new crop of games that are looking at other ways.

Reader
Manastu Utakata

It’s getting the point in my pigtailed life where I ask, “Is this debate still a thing?” The world could blow up tomorrow, why should we care about this? The question comes to my mind instead (as it should for everyone else IMO), do I enjoy what I am doing in the game I am playing? If yes, does it really matter it’s hardcore, casual, something in between and all points beyond?

Reader
Veldan

If you already are enjoying what you’re playing it does not matter. Yet it is linked, because if you’re a player with a hardcore mentality, and the game is uber casual, you will not enjoy it. It’s really that simple. The game you’re playing has to match your playstyle / mentality to a certain degree, or you’re not going to have fun.

smuggler-in-a-yt
Reader
smuggler-in-a-yt

I’m going to use my WoW experience for this frame, only because it’s (to me) the most useful and illustrative.

I didn’t hit 60 for a long time. I mean, a really long time. I didn’t do dungeons. Very casually would do group quests. Had a months-long detour in Southshore before Silvanus decided to turn it into a wasteland. Battlegrounds, etc. I remember managing to get my rank up to Master Sergeant and feeling relatively pleased with myself. There was a LOT of time wrapped up in that play, but it wasn’t “hardcore”. My first purple that I ever found was an original Staff of Jordan that came off a Mist Gorilla outside Booty Bay. My wife used that as her main weapon until TBC, and that stupid green replaced it in an instant.

So what’s hardcore? What’s casual? Is it time invested? I agree that to a large extent the older game designs relied much more on a sense of achieved purpose. The grind was there, in large part, but the reward at the end was much more clear. The design philosophy largely held true through Wrath. It got easier, sure, but it was still there. I remember the Ebon Blade quests fondly, and the awe of phasing.

I don’t think there’s a pendulum swing back to that, because when I look at the Legion design, they’ve tried to capture that sense of achieved purpose, but seem to be fighting sites around the internet that have communities dedicated to min-maxing, which has pushed the designers into a false choice of trying to spend too much time designing for the leading edge. And that, knowing from experience, tends to push someone to the ultimate GM’s bag of fate. I always called it the “Random Meteor.” It’s also known as the RNG.

Outside of the 800 pound gorilla, it seems to be driving the market into a weird fractured niche status. Now you’ve got exploration games. You’ve got up and coming PVP games. You’ve got MOBAs and mini-games, and mobile games, and all kinds of crazy. I don’t know if that’s a bad thing or not, I know there’s more choice in the market than I could ever reasonably tackle. I think MOP does an incredible job covering the important stuff and the weekly round-up they do. Ultimately, though, I don’t think we’re heading back for ‘hardcore’ status.

Because that would mean you’d find me standing in Tarren Mill. Atop a pile of Horde bodies taller than the city hall.

And then the universe would implode…or something.

Reader
A Dad Supreme

MMOs definitely changed from more serious or ‘long term’ (how I see it) involving affairs for a smaller set of computer gamers to appeal and draw more money from a larger more casual playerbase of wider computer gamers.

I think a large part of that casual gamer MMO thinking were a new set of players who wanted shorter more faster instant gratification of items communally understood to be almost impossible to get; basically they wanted all the things the top-tier players earned without putting in the kind of time, effort and dedication (see; no life) that they put in.

This can be seen from things like the NGE fiasco, lesser to no death penalties in MMOs for mistakes in play, dumbing down of group play (abolishment of support classes and trinity), “bonus XP” sessions galore, and rewards just for logging into a game… literally.
Some of the changes were good but most were bad as a whole for traditional MMOs, as each new inception that was watered down further made play easier to the point where “solo raids and dungeons” are now commonplace.

You used to be able to count on one hand the amount of players able to solo just sub-bosses in MMOs; now you can go on YTube and see tons of videos of “solo God” players beating whole normal raids by themselves, taking the “MMO” part completely out of it.

Reader
Schlag Sweetleaf

Each successive generation is diminishing,applicable to all things MMo and beyond

Reader
Bryan Turner

No meme?

Reader
A Dad Supreme

True, but I think the speed at which it’s done now is more of a testament to the dumbing down of the “MMO” part of MMOs.

Reader
Manastu Utakata

I don’t think anything has been really “dumbed” down though. Instead moved sideways to a degree that some “Back in The Day” types may not like. While others have made their own versions of hardcore out of it. MMO’s continue move, evolve and grow in complexity regardless. /shrug

Reader
Schlag Sweetleaf

From what I have seen Uta,MMOs are growing in flash but regressing in substance.Story and socialization being sacrificed for streamlined self -aggrandizement.This is the opinion of a “back in the day” type so your mileage may vary:)

Reader
Manastu Utakata

If you are speaking of socialization in the guise of forced grouping, then I consider sacrificing that a good thing. If you are speaking of socialization of encouraging a costume contest for example, I think you may have a point. Then of course, there is the issue of going from raid focus to lockbox focus…where MMO’s really haven’t gotten better, rather traded one horrible aspect for another.

With that, I will now amend my “MMO’s continue move, evolve and grow in complexity regardless” position to being one that is entirely subjective. As the results may vary according one’s experience and opinion. :)

Reader
Giannis Papadopoulos

I wouldnt calling it as “forced grouping”. Early wow for example, you could level up alone perfectly fine but it was more efficient to do in groups..

So when someome else poped up in your way while questing and asked you to group up for a few quests you were tempted to say yes, because you could finish those quests much faster and safer.

Now, if you group for questing you will most probably waste time because the speed at which mobs are killed are faster than you can coordinate, or even chat..

So lets say that socializing MMO technique means that you make group play the most efficient way to play while you still make the solo play possible

Reader
Schlag Sweetleaf

the next step will be the infusion of “hardcore” gambling and brutal monetization.maMMOn:) It certainly does not look like familiar territory to me any more.

I much more enjoy playing here as of late:)

Reader
Schlag Sweetleaf

.

MMOs for Algernon.gif
Reader
Schmidt.Capela

IMHO there was a clear shift in the games, in part because there was a clear shift in the potential player base.

At the time of the early MMOs a gaming computer was a big luxury already, and often took technical expertise to assemble and keep running. Paying for Internet connection atop that was an even bigger luxury, as it was expensive and back then the Internet was seen as something superfluous. Paying monthly to play a computer game? You needed to be crazy about the concept of online play to do that.

What this means is that the average MMO player back then was very different. Wealthier, more engaged, with the time to learn not only about the game but about how computers and the Internet worked as you needed that knowledge to keep everything working correctly. Or, in other words, enthusiasts.

As the Internet became increasingly more accepted, access became cheaper, and gaming-capable computers that worked out of the box became available for reasonable prices, a large number of non-enthusiasts entered the potential player base. Devs and publishers reacted to this shift by making games more in line with the new potential player base.

I believe you can still glimpse that difference in potential player bases by looking at how Beta players (when the Beta will end with a wipe) tend to be different from players of the ongoing version of the game. Someone engaging in beta-testing needs more technical expertise (as Beta tends to have more bugs and technical issues), plus a willingness to play for no reward (due to the wipe at the end); as a result, you will find a far higher proportion of enthusiasts among Beta players, and at least in the Betas I took part the community was markedly different from what the game finally got at launch.

Reader
Robert Mann

True, although the amount of ‘Hehe, I can plays firstes!’ in betas is still astounding… *and then they expect this perfect completed game.*

wpDiscuz