Cloud Imperium rejects wild claim that Star Citizen is ‘owned by a bank’

The Star Citizen subreddit is aflame this weekend after bloggers on multiple sites and social media platforms, seemingly spurred on by a certain self-proclaimed Internet Warlord, have held up recently disclosed Cloud Imperium loan documents as “proof” that the company is close to failure and in danger of losing game assets allegedly put up as collateral.

Redditors have sought to counter that narrative, arguing that it’s part of a multi-year FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) campaign by Star Citizen detractors. They point out that securing a line of credit is not even remotely uncommon (and is in fact wise) for a large corporation with strongholds in multiple countries, given current interest rates. Others suggest that the “bank” is actually a wealth management company known for investment and that no bank of this caliber would loan a large sum of money if it had little expectation of remuneration, collateral or not.

We reached out to CIG’s PR firm for clarity; turns out the company lawyer just responded on the official forums with the official statement:

We have noticed the speculations created by a posting on the website of UK’s Company House with respect to Coutt’s security for our UK Tax Rebate advance, and we would like to provide you with the following insight to help prevent some of the misinformation we have seen.

Our UK companies are entitled to a Government Game tax credit rebate which we earn every month on the Squadron 42 development. These rebates are payable by the UK Government in the fall of the next following year when we file our tax returns. Foundry 42 and its parent company Cloud Imperium Games UK Ltd. have elected to partner with Coutts, a highly regarded, very selective, and specialized UK banking institution, to obtain a regular advance against this rebate, which will allow us to avoid converting unnecessarily other currencies into GBP. We obviously incur a significant part of our expenditures in GBP while our collections are mostly in USD and EUR. Given today’s low interest rates versus the ongoing and uncertain currency fluctuations, this is simply a smart money management move, which we implemented upon recommendation of our financial advisors.

The collateral granted in connection with this discounting loan is absolutely standard and pertains to our UK operation only, which develops Squadron 42. As a careful review of the security will show and contrary to some irresponsible and misleading reports, the collateral specifically excludes “Star Citizen.” The UK Government rebate entitlement, which is audited and certified by our outside auditors on a quarterly basis, is the prime collateral. Per standard procedure in banking, our UK companies of course stand behind the loan and guarantee repayment which, however, given the reliability of the discounted asset (a UK Government payment) is a formality and nothing else. This security does not affect our UK companies’ ownership and control of their assets. Obviously, the UK Government will not default on its rebate obligations which will be used for repayment, and even then the UK companies have ample assets to repay the loan, even in such an eventuality which is of course unthinkable.

This should clarify the matter. Thank you.

It’s worth reiterating that just this weekend, the company hauled in at least half a million dollars (by conservative estimate) thanks to the 14,000 backers who purchased the latest concept ship during its first day of sale. As of press time, the game has raised a total of $152,874,405 in crowdfunding cash since its 2012 Kickstarter.

And it’s worth pointing out that the Internet Warlord has been predicting failure for the game for several years, but it has yet to happen.

via Reddit. Cheers, Serv and Josh.
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Estranged
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Estranged

Just talking business:

If I had a $152 million, crowd funded project and sold it like Oculus – stiffing the backers…

Oh boy.

What would SC be worth to a bank or software house?

That would be the exit plan, not bankruptcy. Amazon would buy it to not soil Lumberyard.

Would imagine some form of the game would be released to avoid litigation.

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Space Captain Zor

Oh my.. who wants to start a drinking game based on how many things Smart can say in one post to trigger someone into fighting with him?

Estranged
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Estranged

I don’t need alcohol poisoning!

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

CIG: “Drama? What drama?……..What’s that sound? “CHERRRRRRRRCHINGGGGG!!!!”

View post on imgur.com

Another million hit. And another million to spend on developing the game. Grats CIG.

Hey Derek, you were wondering how CIG are going to pay off that loan? There you go buddy.

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Utakata

…just one small point of contention and a pigtailed favor to ask: Could folks knock if off with the ableist ad homs on Mr. Smart? It’s a bit distressing and unproductive to put it mildly. Feel free to address his claim and dubious motivations over this. Intelligent debating this instead will likely better defeat the anti-intellectual narrative of the source’s insinuations. As I am pretty sure our esteemed moderator would appreciate it as well. Thnkx!

yonasismad
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yonasismad

As I have already mentioned in my comment: Derek does not like people actually discussing with him and asking valid questions and I am happy that Derek was so kind providing an example.

Derek’s original tweet:

ICYMI (updated this morning with new details), Star Citizen assets have been pledged to a bank via a high-risk loan. [Link to his blog]

A user asked him:

Only risk is if the UK Government doesn’t give them the tax credits. That’s about as low risk you can get. How on earth is that high risk?

Derek’s answer:

You’re an idiot. Get out of my feed before I hit refresh. It was so low risk, yet a freaking bank took EVERYTHING as collateral. Yup.

Source: https://archive.fo/fEmt0

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Utakata

Because Mr. Smart does it, doesn’t make it okay for us to do it.

yonasismad
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yonasismad

I normally would agree with you and I do if we are talking about a typical discussion, however Mr. Smart is not the typical person you argue with. If you try to argue with him, if you are linking sources to facts or you are pointing out his mistakes in a discussion, then he will ban/block you, if he has the power to do so. – He never accepts to be wrong, not even once. If you point something out, he starts calling the source a liar or faked or both. – He is not interested in a proper argumentation. He is interested in seriously harming the project by attacking it as often as possible.

Do you know any person which is writing every day a dozen ranting tweets about a game, is writing several long (5k+ words, guessed, probably more) blog posts for more then 2 years now, is attacking employees, doxxing people and so on. – Does this sound to you like your typical person you are arguing with? Well, I have never argued with a person like this before.

He got his money back from CIG. He has no connection whatsoever to the project. Why can’t he just let it go?

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Utakata

No excuse. He can’t ban or block you here. o.O

Not to mention, every time you make an ad hom attack against him, it invalidates your position. Sure he obfuscates in a stream of disingenuous consciousness, with likely intention of not changing his position regardless of the evidences and compelling arguments put forward. But that does not mean you go low.

Keep in mind, he’s got a small following of Sm’umpets who need to be convinced that his arguments are likely full of it. And I doubt they’ll listen if you keep trash talking their god. Instead you need to patiently convince them their god’s conclusions is less then the sum of its parts. Just saying.

Estranged
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Estranged

Smart God versus Roberts God. Where is Zeus when we need him?

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Utakata

And yes, there are those who unhealthy admiration for Mr. Roberts too. I wish folks would look at the product and/or the criticisms of it instead and judge that on its merits. We should be looking for credibility instead credulity.

That said, your Drainage is starting to show. And welcome back! :)

Estranged
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Estranged

Mana – thanks!

Indeed. The problem is when humans are challenged so harshly, they tend to hunker down.

Lots of smoke around these parts, without involving Mr. Smart.

I hope it works out for everyone.

yonasismad
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yonasismad

Sure, he cannot block me here, but where he is active he can (Twitter & his own forum & Discord). – If you scroll down, you will find several comments written by me, he actually answered once and then I asked him to provide evidence for the existence of a source and also provided a way which is not compromising the source’s identity. He didn’t respond. So, it is not like I am not trying to argue with him, but if the counter-part in the discussion does not answer… well… then it isn’t a discussion…

Keep in mind, he’s got a small following of Sm’umpets who need to be convinced that his arguments are likely full of it.

I get were you are coming from and I do agree, but it is not like that you can convince them. In the last couple of months, “we” provided enough evidence that Derek Smart is frequently wrong about almost all of his predictions and claims about StarCitizen and Squadron 42. I personally have never seen a single person, whom is a follower of Derek Smart, admitting that Derek Smart did something wrong. – And a person who is doxxing and posting pictures of somebody’s children and so on. This person and his community gets zero respect from me. – I have nothing against a good old fashioned discussion and critique about Star Citizen and neither does the community. Some of the most up-voted thread in r/starcitizen are critical about Star Citizen (1, 2, 3).


To the moderation team:

I’ve noticed that you have edited one of my comments, that is okay, but I am not sure what part you changed of it. Did I include a link to something I wasn’t allowed to? Please let me know, so I can stop including it.

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Alex Willis

Hey guys, been away all weekend, what’s been happenOHMYGOD *dodges backdraft explosion*

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JebLeBlanc
Godnaz
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Godnaz

autistic spasms

Love your comments Jeb. Favor though. Can you not use autistic as a description of choice? While I’m no expert on the condition, I do know that it’s an involuntarily condition. Derek may be challenged on a personal level but people with ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) tend to be more humble and observant with details.

Other than that, your posts are great! !

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JebLeBlanc

my comments would be a lot greater if Massively wouldn’t delete critical comments about the failed troll tho… sure I won’t insult autists anymore by comparing them to Derek. I 100% agree they deserve better!

Godnaz
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Godnaz

Yeah, don’t take it personal. The mods tend to remove questionable statements, call outs and slanderous materials if they feel it’s inappropriate. I get a post deleted often enough to know this isn’t a democracy or free speech platform.

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Darkwalker75 .

I dont think I have ever had any comments deleted or even moderated, either here or other places.

The reason for that is because I don’t resort to that kind or commenting.
I stick to the point and argue the case and point presented because I honestly believe that resorting to any kind of attack on a person rather than their comment just invalidates my own position.
And if I cant argue the case or the point I don’t respond at all.

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roo woods

I remember several times when your comments were moderated and deleted .

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Darkwalker75 .

Please show me where.
I’ll be happy to admit I’m wrong if you can provide proof to back up your claim.

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roo woods

Bit difficult when they have been deleted isn’t it . I’ve not been in these forums for quite a while now but I remember you harassing anyone who had anything negative to say about SC . If anyone wants doubts this post they can always look back at your comments since 2015 .

I can’t imagine what good you think you are doing .

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Utakata

Yep, MOP has no intention of forming government. Meanwhile if you don’t like it, you can always form your own MMO blog where you can allow childish name calling all you want among the readers till the cows come home. /freeze peaches

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Close that door, and let him f*cking finish!

yonasismad
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yonasismad

Thank you very much for actually contacting them before posting it. I’ve seen many “journalists” reporting on this topic without even reading the document at all. I am glad to see that we still have journalists capable of doing their job. Awesome! – Thank’s for triggering Derek ‘Not So’ Smart, it is always enjoyable to read his comment filled with his totally real knowledge and sources. :)

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dsmart

Nobody is asked to believe what I’m saying. Anyone with command of the English language, and who has basic reading comprehension skills, should be capable of making their own judgment, regardless of how flawed that may be. I remember when, after my blog hit, there were people speculating that 1) it wasn’t a loan 2) oh, it’s a loan for a new building 3) nope, it’s a loan to buy Imaginarium because they are bankrupt 4) lol!! it’s nuthin’, looks like CIG lent one of their own companies money.

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Rob Cox

Nobody is asked to believe what I’m saying.

Which is good, because nobody does.

Honestly, Derek. You really need to unplug the ethernet cable and get to work on Line of Defence if you want to make that 2012 release. Wait a minute!

kingvipes
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kingvipes

Except that you of course claim to be always right, even if the facts prove clearly that you are not. You then backpedal and try to still be right by claiming that it was not what you meant or perform some other amazing mental contortion to avoid having to admit that you were wrong.

People would get along with you and respect you much more if you actually had the balls to admit when you are wrong. But instead you double down on your claims and if you cannot control the conversation by banning them you start spewing insults or just leave the conversation all together.

Which is a shame really, you are clearly passionate about your own games and your stamina to continue making games despite them not being successful is commendable even.

However you do not do yourself a favor by continually attacking another game dev studio that employs over 400 fellow game devs, going so far as to trying to deliberately sabotaging the project. It just makes you look like jealous bitter old man on a personal vendetta.
You should be thrilled that the space game genre is having a renaissance. Now would be the time to double down on your game development, less twittering more coding Derek, chop chop. Surprise us with an amazing game.

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Roger Christie

Tell me Derek, how is it you’ve been able to get away with defrauding customers for 20+ years?

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Armsman

To be fair – at this point DS really has no ‘customers’. Want proof? Just check the Steam Charts for his game “Line of Defense: (still in ‘beta’ testing and a game he’s said was going to be in final release ‘soon’ since 2009):
http://steamcharts.com/app/266620

That he continues to try and claim he knows anything about the development of current AAA class games is a joke. If anything the only thing he’s really ‘developed’ is probably a bad case of hemorrhoids from sitting on his ass tweeting FUD about the Star Citizen project 24/7.

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Joe Blobers

Hi Armsman, the real name for everybody but DS is Last Outrageous Disaster… Refrain to use the official name, that is exactly what he try to advertise.

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Armsman

Really? And here I thought the ACTUAL working title was“Load Of Douchebaggery” ;)

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Joe Blobers

DS… we do not need you. Brother Maynard explained the all stuff clearly enough so we got confirmation (as usual, what a surprise) you are both incompetent about making games at large and about finance as well.
Keep your psychotic crusade on. And thanks for advertising SC to even more people before release of SC 3.0 and Gamescon :)

yonasismad
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yonasismad

Anyone with command of the English language, and who has basic reading comprehension skills, should be capable of making their own judgment, regardless of how flawed that may be.

That is only possible if the provided information is actually accurate, but the “journalists” provided on purpose wrong information just like you. You claim to know things and as soon as proven otherwise, you call the people who proved you wrong liars and “paid shills”. A normal person would accept their wrong doing and maybe even apologize, but you just keep publishing and tweeting knowingly false information WITHOUT providing any form of source.

The Escapist tried the same bs once and coulnd’t provide any form of evidence that their sources where real, but at least they tried. You are saying all the time that you are talking to managers, bankers, state officials and current CIG employees. – You could easily prove that the CIG employee is real by asking this person to send you a screenshot of an internal documentation (next ship, game mechanic or something similar to this). This would NOT compromise his identity.

I am waiting…

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Really, Derek? You seem to be trying your hardest to convince people.

Tell me something, is this like the time when you claimed you weren’t in a position to judge how people spent their money? And then proceeded mock people for spending it on Star Citizen? You do realise how your contradictory posts make you look, don’t you?

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Roger Melly

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Roger Melly

Sadly I don’t have a time machine but if I did I would rather travel into the future and find out whether Star Citizen ever gets released .

( I would also go back to December the 8th 1980 and stop John Lennon from getting shot )

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Joe Blobers

Roger Melly… +1 but only for John Lennon… Which by now way can be an excuse to overprotect freedom of speech of a patented lyar and psychotic guy…

Ken Smith
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Ken Smith

This was posted by Abrushing on Reddit.

So, the data I have available for comparison is all from private companies, meaning I can’t divulge names and details due to SEC and FINRA regulations. Public companies would just issue an unsecured (no collateral) bond and be done with it. Collateralized loans are more common and help a company obtain a lower interest rate than an unsecured line of credit would. The loan agreements I have all state LIBOR/US Prime Rate plus 0.5% to 1.0%.
Last year, CIG was owed a tax credit of £3,319,220. 2015 was £3,115,774, so I’ll just average it to about £3,200,000 for simplicity. Now, CIG could be sending this over from the US, but the exchange rate over the past year has been all over the place, to the tune of .75 to .82 GBP per USD converted. Note that this conversion rate means the lower ratio is, the weaker the Dollar is to the Pound. Rather than risk losing money to a volatile conversion, F42 opted to take the advance on their tax credit and minimize the loss.
Let’s assume they did it at Friday’s (6/23) conversion rate (about 0.79). They could move $4,050,633, which would convert down to £3,200,000 for an accounting loss of $850,633. Alternatively, they could take a collateralized loan. This is a short-term loan on the tax credit they are due at the end of the year, so I’m going to assume the bank used the 1-year LIBOR rate to give them time to do their taxes and actually receive the credit to pay it back.
1 year GBP LIBOR as of close 6/23 was .667%, so using the riskiest range I found on commercial collateral loans, I’d say their loan would be 1.667% under this assumption. For fun, let’s go even higher and say this loan is at 2%. So, a loan of £3,200,000 at 2% means they are paying £64,000 of interest, or $81,013
So there you have it. By getting the tax credit loan advance in Britain instead of sending money from the US, they are saving ($850,633-$81,013) = $769,620. Remember, this is only an assumption based on available numbers, so they won’t be exact. They should be somewhere in the ballpark, though.

Edit: Grammar, currency symbols, and disclaimers.

Edit 2: I finally read the public loan doc, and they are getting a base rate of 0.25%, so their interest cost is actually going to be around $10,000, if that, so they are potentially saving over $800,000.

Everything you need to understand why they took out a loan is right there.

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dsmart

All of that is speculative nonsense, and needs no further commentary, as that would be a waste of my time.

The most glaring?

they are getting a base rate of 0.25%

They are not.

That’s the base (what we call prime here in the US) rate. The bank has a 2% margin on top of that. Plus whatever rate they give the loan at. It’s all there in Schedule 1, p18 of the filing where both “Base Rate” and “Default Rate” are defined. And there is no way to know the actual rate without seeing the loan docs. Same way we can’t see what “Game” (p19) is defined as, because neither Squadron 42 nor Star Citizen are explicitly described in the charge as being part of that definition.

Funny thing that he wrote up an entire missive of patently nonsensically information – before he read the public doc. Then got it wrong anyway. This is why backers like this, are going to continue burying their head in the sand until the final curtain call. Then they’re going to come up with a different tune. It happens every – single – time.

All that aside, nobody wants to explain why, if the loan isn’t risky (for the bank), and it was a sure thing (as per govt. credit) – why did the bank not just take the tax credit security which is the amount (we think) of the loan? Instead, they secured the assets over BOTH companies, over a tax credit that – according to their 2016 financials – barely funds the company for 3 months.

There is nothing wrong with going out and getting money. After all, they are doing that every day with backers. The issue here is that the project is very delayed, isn’t even 25% delivered – and they are clearly burning more money than they are making, suffering from backer fatigue (to wit, the low sale numbers of recent sales – including the Nox bike), and run a high risk of crashing and burning. And now, amid poor excuses and deflection, they are at a point whereby they are taking high-risk loans in order to stay afloat. This after raising all this money, for a game (already overscoped) that was fully funded at $65m and was due out in Nov 2014. The bank, who is in a better position to know the health of the company because of the financials and disclosures they would have to provide in order to get this loan, already knows this. Which is why they gave them such a high-risk and consequential loan, which prevents them from doing any more loans, before paying this off first.

To be clear, I have NO skin in this game, and I don’t give a toss if they take out a 100 loans like this, or blow through a billion dollars. My only goal right now, is pure vindication. Nothing more, nothing less. Since I wrote that first July 2015 blog in which I said the game stood no chance of getting done because it has been overscoped, and blown out of proportion, I have been getting attacked (look no further than the comments here, on Reddit etc), death threats (as recent as yesterday on Twitter and Reddit), doxxed (even my wife and family), a bunch of nonsensical lies made up by people who can’t defend the project without attacking dissenting voices, my games review bombed etc. It’s been non-stop. And these are the same guys who, forgetting my personality, think that they are ever going to be put me under siege, let alone get me to back down in the face of incessant attacks over a f*cking video game. I am in this to the end because I know – with unflinching and uncompromising certainty – that I am 100% right that the project is FUBAR, will never get made, and that backers – every single one of them – will lose all their money. And from what I know, and which I haven’t even made public, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait and see what happens next.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS: “… I know – with unflinching and uncompromising certainty – that I am 100% right …”

100% lies and 100% wrong as usual, like the 2 pages on my “sctrollsdump.wordpress” blog gathering 24 of your most outrageous lies/obfuscation, among hundreds of others.

Be sure that I’ll come back right here in 12 months, after SQ42 Chapter 1 is released and several big patch added to SC.

CIG will still be there, stronger than ever and I’ll add a page to my blog with all dates and articles around the web of your “100% right” with the best prophecies :)

In the meantime, keep entertained us with free advertising.

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Armsman

Derek Smart:

All of that is speculative nonsense,

^^^
hahaha! The same could be said of EVERY TWEET you make regarding either Star Citizen or modern game development in general since you really haven’t delivered an actual playable game . Hell, your ONE ‘claim to fame’: “Battlecruiser: 300 AD” was panned as a mess from the day it released.

Here’s the Gamespot review of that game from December 17, 1996:
https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/battlecruiser-3000-ad-review/1900-2538148/

Ken Smith
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Ken Smith

All of that is speculative nonsense,

That’s your bread and butter.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS:”let alone get me to back down in the face of incessant attacks over a f*cking video game”
So you are a victim.. did we read it correctly? Seriously? are you that far in your inception dream DS? :)

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Roger Christie

Isn’t that his stock in trade? Hasn’t it BEEN his stock in trade for 20+ years?

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

“All of that is speculative nonsense, and needs no further commentary, as that would be a waste of my time.”

…and then you do exactly that which you said you didn’t need to do. Followed by YOUR own speculation and your usual rhetoric (claiming you know better about finances than those who work in that industry for a living). Also, playing the victim card? Seriously, Derek? You yourself are as guilty as anyone for “attacking” people. And of course you end with the obligatory “I know stuff…but I’ve not shown the public yet…”

Derek, seriously mate, put your money were your mouth is. Show the public what you have or be quiet. Every time you make these claims, you’re making yourself look VERY foolish.

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Roger Melly

The question is why were they not transparent about this loan prior to Derek Smart bringing it to public attention .

It may very well be that there are good and sound business reasons why they did it but they should have disclosed them as soon as they did it that way they could have defused the situation somewhat . This is the worst possible way for it to come out as it make it appear they were trying to hide something from their investors and only reacted then they got caught out .

However you look at it the public relations of CIG leave a lot to be desired and that in turn raises questions about leadership .

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dsmart

The same way they are not transparent about everything. Heck, this is the same company that changed their ToS several times in order to strip backers of security and rights they previously gave them. Some of those provisions included providing financial accounting for the project.

I don’t even need to mention that, they spent a whole year evaluating the engine switch to LumberYard, and never mentioned it. Not once. Not during the whole year while they were showcasing various tech and gameplay stuff, writing updates etc. Then, as soon as they had collected the monies from the 2016 YE effort, I wrote a blog when I spotted the LY logo. Some people called me crazy. Then they saw it for themselves. Like magic – as what Ortwin just did with this loan – Chris sends out a newsletter saying they were doing this during the year, that the switch (which is still on-going btw) took days, was simple etc. All of which has proven to be completely false.

As someone pointed out in the PC Gamer comments yesterday about this story, if they were forthright and truthful in their dealings with backers, something like a loan being taken out, while it looks bad, wouldn’t have caused such a furor. The bottom line is that, apart from the few loyal (some highly toxic) backers, and paid shills, they’ve lost the trust of the backers, the media, and the gaming community at large. The project is laughing stock, nobody aside from the aforementioned people expect that it will ever get completed etc.

There are those who are hand-waving this whole thing away because, you know, burying your head in the sand works out so well. And they are the ones who are shouting down, and attacking others who are asking legit questions.

This loan is a bad sign. There is absolutely no other way to explain it. And it’s only public because of UK rules, or backers won’t know anything about it. If backers had an insight to the financials of the US ops, I am 100% certain that there would be more furor over that.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS:”…As someone pointed out in the PC Gamer comments yesterday…”

Readers just for the fun, I went to this site comments section containing 483 comments:
There is ONE guy asking why CIG did not provided information before doing the loan… 1 out of 483 comments and so many comments are about in summary “DS is a pathetic “so called” developer” and the best, from many contributors totally unknown.

As I said already DS did reach the opposite of his goal (as usual): solidify SC Community and push further the number of pledges :)

Thanks man :) SC got a much larger cover than usual even on sites that never had a single word about SC in 5 years, all saying: “Trouble, we see no trouble”.

That alone is gold as that mean readers that never heard about SC did have a chance to keep in mind Star Citizen name and go on CIG site to discover the truth behind the lie.

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Joe Blobers

Do not try to evade DS… you are incompetence incarnated.

You can twist around endlessly, that won’t change the fact yours prophecies failed every single time :)

You have zero legitimacy man. None.

yonasismad
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yonasismad

[…] ,they spent a whole year evaluating the engine switch to LumberYard, and never mentioned it.

They don’t need to mention it, because it has no relevance. Lumberyard is a fork of CryEngine and exists in its own branch now (https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Branching-Branches-in-a-Nutshell).

All of which has proven to be completely false.

Really? Jesus. Please read the link explaining what a branch is and then we can talk about that again. You simply do not understand any type of version control. – You have proven btw. nothing. Linking to your blog on your own blog as source for your own blog post is not a VALID source.

[…], if they were forthright and truthful in their dealings with backers, something like a loan being taken out, while it looks bad, wouldn’t have caused such a furor.

There is not a single game studio explaining every financial move they do, because not every single studio has its own online harasser who is twisting words all the time. Many news outlets have updated or even removed their articles and published apologies to CIG for publishing false information.

The project is laughing stock, nobody aside from the aforementioned people expect that it will ever get completed etc.

That’s why they still have a stable growth in community members and funding. Genius.

[…], you know, burying your head in the sand works out so well.

Well, that is exactly what you are doing. – Self-reflection level: none. Ignoring facts. Never proving anything. Twisting words. Doxxing people. Harassing people online and so on. – There is not a single game company that worked with you after you published a couple of horribly bad games. You were never invited to any relevant conferences to give a speech. You had to found your own company to still be able to claim that you are a developer. The non-existing games you have published in the past decade prove that your company only exists to have some form of prove which is irrelevant.

This loan is a bad sign.

It is not. You simply cannot admit to be wrong once. You have to keep lying because that is the essential part of your personality. You would never admit any wrong doing, because you are just not capable of doing so. You are a poor human being.

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Joe Blobers

Roger Melly, CIG and close to all companies NEVER provide indepth Finance accounts because the vast majority of people either do not understand it (see what happen right there with a standard loan process) and also because internet is full of “expert” that will give advise on every single $ spend… look at DS. A self awarded expert that is only known for not delivering… described quite accurately as a lyar and others pshychotic behavior…. but still provide wall of advises to others…
Now multiple that by millions of guys on internet and you got the picture.

Quote: “why they did it but they should have disclosed them as soon as they did it that way they could have defused the situation ”

Because there is nothing to defuse. CIG does not drive communication based on an incompetent developer that goes south decades ago.

As Chris Roberts said about the guy year ago when questioned by a journalist:

“I try not to get into any of that. I think people who talk about other people’s work… I don’t know what to say, other than, if someone spent so much energy focusing on their own stuff, maybe people would like their own stuff better. I don’t particularly pay much attention to him because it seems like the more people pay attention to him… I think at the end of the day the game is gonna speak for itself, the content speaks for itself. There’s plenty of people who say, y’know, you can’t do certain things and I don’t listen to them. Especially, y’know, I mean, you have to listen to people who have actually been able to do stuff and that you respect. That’s not the case (here).”

So true… and today we got another sample of his terrible behavior.. again and again.

But keep him as a standard by which you evaluate CIG progress… :) That say a lot about who is who.

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Roger Melly

But the thing is most companies are not crowdfunded in the way CIG is and therefore CIG should have be far more transparent than most companies .

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

That’s the thing. CIG ARE being more transparent than a lot of other companies. Just not in certain areas which some (such as Derek) would like. Could they do better? Possibly. There’s always room for improvement.

So I ask you this, has any other CF company been 100% transparent with every single detail of their finances? I don’t think any have been. I could be wrong though.

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Roger Melly

When it comes to development they are very transparent about what they are doing but do you know what roughly is the state of the company’s finances are at the moment ?

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Roger, you’re side stepping the question. But I’ll answer yours, people speculate and have rough guesses about CIG’s situation. But that’s all they are.

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Roger Melly

Sorry I didn’t mean to sidestep your question. I would think backing such a company should give someone the same rights as a shareholder to have access to an annual financial statement .

Given the levels of controversy that are surrounding CIG then I would suggest such a move would be beneficial to them as long as their finances are in good standing .

They literally could prove the detractors wrong overnight and put an end to all the conjecture . The question is why have they not done so already ?

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Roger Christie

Why? Backers are neither shareholders nor investors.

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Roger Melly

Actually the very act of putting money into a crowdfunded project is by definition an investment . In the case of Star Citizen you are investing money for the development of a game that you hope to play one day .

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Roger Christie

Jesus. No. It isn’t. An investment is an agreement in which you -invest- money in something in expectation of a return on any profits. There is absolutely no such agreement in crowdfunding. Crowdfunding is patronage, pure and simple.

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Joe Blobers

Because they do not have to provide anything beside the TOS. Crowfunded or not. Remember those talking about cofee machine, door entrance, how much does it costs, why? Why not?…

Either you agree to a deal (TOS and Yes TOS change in all companies) or you don’t and move along.

Simple rule.
Business is not Democracy.

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Roger Melly

What rights do shareholders have?

This website will tell you the rights of shareholders .

Firstly share holders have a right to attend general meetings and vote so there is at least an element of Democracy in businesses of this type .

Secondly Share holders have a right to receive a companies annual report and accounts .

Any doubts of my accuracy here feel free to google it yourself there are plenty of websites that will tell you the same thing

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Roger Christie

They aren’t shareholders.

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Roger Melly

I addressed that they were not shareholder in my original post but felt perhaps they should be treated in a similar manner .

Scroll up

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Darkwalker75 .

No, they should only be treated as such if they are shareholders.
But since CIG is a private company and not selling shares their backers have no right to insight into their finances, no matter what anyone may think.
If you use that argument you could use it to get insight into the finances of any company you want just by giving them money

And contrary to popular belief, it would not silence the many people who are “concerned” about their finances.,
It would just give the “concerned” people more fuel for their fires, they would just complain about how CIG spends the money and that they don’t do it the way they think, believe, want or expect them to spend the money.

Basically they would just complain about how CIG spend their money the same way they currently complain about how CIG develops the game.

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Roger Melly

@darkwalker75

I didn’t they should be treated the same as shareholder in any other aspect other than having access to an annual financial statement .

My view is that investors should have a right to see where the money they have invested is going .

Anyway I wasn’t addressing you I was answering Tarka Roshe who at least does come up with some interesting points unlike the rhetoric you push out time and again and is capable of holding a polite conversation about this subject .

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Darkwalker75 .

You seem to be contradicting yourself here

First you say people should not have access to their financial statement, but then proceed to say they should be shown where the money have gone.

How do you expect to be given insight into where the money are going without giving them a financial statement showing them how the money has been spent?
You want to give people access to their books and accounts then?

Yes people have invested money into this, but they are not investors in the way you seem to think.
Financial investment they way you seem to think of works in a very different way from what this is.
Most people(myself included) do and would not understand that kind of investment and any insight into their finances would make them understand any better.

Instead you would just have people go around and pretending to know and act as if they do know and know better than CIG how they should spend their money.
No we are far better off not having such insight no matter how much some people may think it would help.

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roo woods

Did he actually ever say financial investor ? No . Did he actually ever say they were shareholders ? No .

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Darkwalker75 .

Your entire comment and point is based on the idea that crowd funding is the same as buying shares in a company.
It is not the same thing, and I strongly recommend you take the time to learn the difference.

People are pledging financial support, but they are not buying shares in the company, as such the shareholder rights you talk about does not apply here.

Just because you give money to something does not mean that they are shareholders of any sort

pledge
verb [ T ] UK ​ /pledʒ/ US ​ /pledʒ/

to make a serious or formal promise to give or do something:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pledge

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Roger Melly

“Sorry I didn’t mean to sidestep your question. I would think backing such a company should give someone the same rights as a shareholder to have access to an annual financial statement ”

Actually if you look at my post I did not suggest that they were similar to shareholder . I suggested that they should have the right to have access to a financial statement in the way a shareholder does given they have invested money . There is a big difference .

It is not the first time in these forums I have seen you post an answer to a comment you have misread or not absorbed properly .

I don’t know if it is something you do just to get a rise out of someone or that you do because you genuinely think you have a valid point even though when scrutinized is erroneous .

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Darkwalker75 .

It is not the first time in these forums I have seen you post an answer to a comment you have misread or not absorbed properly .

I can say the same about you, case in point right here.
And see my reply above regarding right to financial insight

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Roger Melly

Actually you can’t say the same about me because I have only ever responded to what you have said in a comment and not made something up in my mind that is not there .

But whatever…..

You really aren’t worth having a debate about it any further because it’s like talking to a brick wall . Utterly pointless .

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Joe Blobers

Roger Melly… this comment section had one positive point (beside pointing out the clown behavior): have a much clearer vision of who you are.

Quote Roger Melly:

“You really aren’t worth having a debate about it any further because it’s like talking to a brick wall . Utterly pointless”

Saying that to Darkwalker75 which is one of the most patient backer, taking time to provide different angle vision to many, never insulting anyone… You compare him to a brick wall, while mostly all yours comments are about: “scrutinity and access to financial statement”
This is your right to say so no problem. But may be you should refrain to talk about others so called “brick wall” while your own is made of 6 words! :)

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roo woods

I would look thru Darkwalkers history of commenting in these forums before making a judgement . He’s been here since 2015 acting like this . The best thing you can do is walk away from an argument with this guy he is always all over anyone who says anything he doesn’t like about Star Citizen . It is a form of trolling .

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Darkwalker75 .

If providing an opposing viewpoint to that of others is a form of trolling, then I am indeed guilty as charged.

And if people feel they need to look through my post history here, they are welcome to it

But while they are at it they should look through your(Bluetouchpaper) comment history as well for comparison.

That way people can judge for themselves.

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Darkwalker75 .

You really aren’t worth having a debate about it any further because it’s like talking to a brick wall . Utterly pointless .

I got it, talking to be is talking to a brick wall because I’m contradicting you and providing an opposing viewpoint rather than agreeing with you .

Thank you for clearing that up.

And of course I can say the same thing about you.

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roo woods

But you’re not contradicting are you . You are doing what you have a history of doing on massivelyop forums deliberately misrepresenting someone’s comment and accusing them of saying things that they never said . It is your way of trolling someone .

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yonasismad

Do you know any game studio releasing official statements for all their financial transactions? No, me neither. – They simply did not predict that Derek Smart is abusing it to create new drama. Derek will tell you it is all about protecting the backers, but it is obviously not, he is spreading intentionally false information to seriously harm CIG’s reputation. Nothing else.

(Comment edited by mod.)

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Roger Melly

I think there should be a law that makes all crowdfunded companies provide such as statement to their investors .

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dsmart

Hello All,

I was invoked by Bree. I decided to give you all a breather before stopping by.

So, I am going to make a single comment about this, then, as always, I will respond to one or two worthy comments, then leave. Until someone invokes me again when the Star Citizen crap hits the fan.

So, here it is. Pay attention.

Ask yourself this :

1) In what world does a company that has raised over $152 million in crowd-funding, with an unknown amount of investor money and US loans, need to so desperately need to play the currency market to the extent that they have to take what is, for all intent and purposes, a high-risk loan, against “future” tax credits? And an amount which – assuming we believe Ortwin that it was against the tax credits – is a measly $4m?

2) Go check the currency conversion, and do the math. It would be cheaper – and zero risk (no collateral needed) – for the US to continue funding UK ops while the USD is stronger against the GBP.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit or any of that nonsense.

And there isn’t a single accountant or CFO who, knowing the circumstances, would agree that taking a $4m loan, that pledges the current and future assets for two ENTIRE companies (F42/CIG), is a good idea. Especially where a govt. tax credit – which fluctuates – is concerned.

In fact, someone else – a banker – already did the math and analysis. It’s in my blog update. Go read it.

3) If this was just about tax credits, isn’t it curious that, like with other companies, the collateral would just be for the tax credits? Why would a $4m loan be collateralized against a multi-million dollar studio assets? And not just some assets, but EVERY SINGLE THING? Could it be that the bank, who would be the best entity to know the financial state of the companies, know something that the public – and backers – don’t know? As in, it’s a huge risk because the company is on shaky financial ground, so we’d better secure everything – just in case?

Note that we don’t even know if it’s just $4m. It could be several years of future tax credits, which would be applicable for as long as the company is solvent, and they are spending the amounts that warrant the max tax credit amount.

And no, the govt. doesn’t cut you a check for your tax credit. Jesus Christ, I’ve seen people type up that rubbish all weekend. I am not going to explain. So look up what tax credits are, how they work, and how they are applied. It’s not rocket science. You just need the ability to read and comprehend what’s written in public docs – right there on the FSA website.

BONUS: You know they have already been using the tax credits, right? Go read their 2016 filing. They never took out a loan against it. Until now. Why is that? Take a wild guess. Then give yourself a cookie if you guessed that it’s because they NEED the money – NOW.

4) Why, even though it’s all RIGHT THERE in the filing, are people saying that the collateral was just for the “tax credits”, when the bank was thorough enough to list THREE FREAKING PAGES outlining the collateral, and which amounts to EVERYTHING the studios own now or in the future (until the loan is paid off)?

To the extent that the bank has complete control over, not only the company assets, but also assumes ownership and control of the assets – including the games they are working on – and grants back the studio the license/rights to exploit those assets. You know why that sounds familiar? It’s because that’s what happens when you get a mortgage or car loan. You don’t own the assets for as long as you owe the bank. So the bank gives you permission to use those assets, and they can take them back at any time if you fail to make payments.

So yes, win, lose, or draw, CIG/F42 basically mortgaged assets that backers poured $152 million into. It really is THAT simple. Again, it’s not rocket science.

And they did it without disclosing it. It only became public when I wrote about it. And of course it was concerning enough that Ortwin – not Chris – had to come out on a Sunday to spin doctor it, though his statement completely confirms precisely what they did: took a high-risk loan, against a asset which is worthless for all intent and purposes because unless and until they complete ONE of these games, there is NO INTRINSIC VALUE and the bank can’t use them as collateral.

Look at this way way. There is no bank, investor, or publisher, who would look at this project, and pay $152 million (let’s ignore the investor money and loans for now) for it. Why? Because there’s nothing “there”. Like, at all.

5) I left the best for last. Anyone who has more than two brain cells and actually READ all 29 pages of the filing, can easily see that Star Citizen is excluded in “name” only; and that since SQ42 is built from EVERYTHING that was developed for Star Citizen, everything the bank listed for SQ42, by extension, also ties up engine, tech, media etc of Star Citizen because, aside from unique music and performance art (mocap for cut scenes), there is NO SQ42 without Star Citizen. Do you think if the loan defaults, the bank is going to take everything, and all of a sudden there’s going to be a Star Citizen “game” left untouched, and CIG/F42 can just carry on developing that game, having stiffed the bank, like it’s perfectly OK? LOL!!!

The notion that “Oh, the collateral doesn’t include Star Citizen, we’re OK” is as hilarious as it is stupid. That’s like taking out a loan on your car, but the bank says you can’t have the engine. But you’re OK with it.

The project is FUBAR. It is a total loss of backer money. And there is absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that I am wrong. And one day soon, we’ll be having this same discussion, right here, even as everyone starts playing armchair detective trying to figure out how it all went so wrong.

ps:, if you haven’t yet read my updates to the blog that Bree linked, you should read it. I actually played fair, by not only including Ortwin’s comment (which is going to come back to haunt him before long – as always), but I also added third-party and neutral comments (two from bankers).

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Armsman

Gee Derek I remember you posting you would NEVER come to post anything on Massively again because the site was so ‘obviously Pro Star Citizen’. What’s the matter? Did you finally realize all the people on the Something Awful forums are laughing their asses off every time you opine “SC doom is just around the corner!” and they just egg you on to see how big of a fool you’ll continue to come across as, or what ridiculous comment you’ll make next?

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Utakata

“I was invoked by Bree”

I am pretty sure she wasn’t trying to invoke you, rather point to the source of the claim. But I know…”What about all the other phony stories they do? FAKE NEWS!” Right? o.O

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Derek, people who work in the business AND teach economics all agree that you don’t know what you’re talking about on this subject.

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Brother Maynard

In what world does a company that has raised over $152 million in crowd-funding, with an unknown amount of investor money and US loans, need to so desperately need to play the currency market to the extent that they have to take what is, for all intent and purposes, a high-risk loan, against “future” tax credits

In a world where a currency loses 1/5 of its value in a single year.

2) Go check the currency conversion, and do the math. It would be cheaper – and zero risk (no collateral needed) – for the US to continue funding UK ops while the USD is stronger against the GBP.

I did. You can see 2 pretty self explanatory screenshots in my comment below. And no, it wouldn’t. CIG (and many others) expect GBP to continue to decline in value. By making this a pure GBP / GBP operation, they keep their dollars and euros for future use where GBP’s value is expected to be even lower. More bang for each buck. See Ken Smith’s post above yours.

Why would a $4m loan be collateralized against a multi-million dollar studio assets? And not just some assets, but EVERY SINGLE THING?

“Every single thing” in Foundry42 (the one that signed this contract with Coutts) was around 3 million GBP in 2016. F42 does not own Star Citizen – the U.S. CIG does.

5) I left the best for last. Anyone who has more than two brain cells and actually READ all 29 pages of the filing, can easily see that Star Citizen is excluded in “name” only; and that since SQ42 is built from EVERYTHING that was developed for Star Citizen

Your (or our) impressions or understanding how things could be working in reality in CIG / F42 have no legal value. If the contract defines the collateral to the total value of F42 assets, that’s what matters. See previous point.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit or any of that nonsense.

The fact that the currency evolution leading up to the Brexit referendum and the following drop from around 1.4-1.5 to 1.1 – 1.2 is nonsense to you is OK. Not everyone follows politics or economic issues. For the majority of people over here, this is beyond any reasonable doubt. For others who don’t prefer to stick their heads in sand, they always have the option to check currency conversion charts and see for themselves the impressive drop that happened in June 2016 and over the following months. For the rest, well…

the-big-lebowski-yeah-well-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man.jpg
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Joe Blobers

Quote DS: “And there is absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that I am wrong”

That is the point DS… you are never wrong … but failed everything you touch :)

And thanks much for coming and leaving this. All you Prophecies of Doom have failed, this one is not different… and quite refreshing. Also your blog is a concentration of never seen level of lies and obfuscation.

Swallow that one: “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” I let you find who said so…. another guy suffering mass delusion.

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Roger Melly

An individual can only suffer delusion (singular) a mass delusion can only be suffered by a group of people (plural)

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Joe Blobers

You are correct Roger Melly, Mass =group but in his case, there are several guys fighting in his head to take the lead over the next FUD sentence :) Problem: All are a delusion person :)

The important point is that Brother Maynard (thanks man!) did provided the most clever answers to the Warlord Of Emptiness ranting and some others guys speculation.

Clear, precise and accurate.

Estranged
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Estranged

The language is interesting, no doubt. You don’t hand over rights to the whole enchilada unless the money is needed badly. Like you said, it seems the bank owns Star Citizen until the loan is paid in full.

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dsmart

The bank owns the rights to all the assets of both F42-UK and CIG-UK. By this loan, they gave them the rights to continue working on and selling their own game. It’s hilarious really. It’s all right there in Section 24. And as I wrote in my blog update about this part, “Star Citizen” is only excluded in name. Nothing else.

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Jeremy Barnes

That’s not accurate at all. It is very clear that the only “Star Citizen” is not used as collateral. Don’t trump it up.

Godnaz
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Godnaz

And there is absolutely nothing that leads me to believe that I am wrong. Ever.

Derek Smart, people.

kingvipes
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kingvipes

(Comment edited by mod.)

Any competent accountant would look at what CIG is doing here and come to the same conclusion, when you are dealing with this amount of capital that needs to be currency exchanged this loan is a very smart move.

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Roger Melly
Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Roger, if you want to talk about personal attacks rather than sticking to subjects, here you go:

http://archive.is/tcSpy

THAT is someone who considers themself to be professional game developer. And don’t for one minute think that the above is an isolatied incident. It’s actually quite normal for Derek.

Do you think its wise to take the moral high ground to defend Derek on this?

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JebLeBlanc
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Roger Melly
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Darkwalker75 .

He didn’t say he was qualified to do so, he asked if a person who was qualified would be willing to tell you something like this.

Even so, what makes you qualified to determine what he is or is not qualified to do?

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Roger Melly

I would think someone who is qualified would know the correct term for the type of medical practitioner they are wouldn’t you ?

It is after all common sense that no one in the medical profession describes themselves or anyone else in the medical profession as a phd doctor .

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Darkwalker75 .

I thought it was obvious that when the PhD part was posted in brackets it was meant as a notation, not as a part of the actual suggested statement.

But who is to say a doctor would not present themselves that way?
Everybody is different and as such would present themselves differently, or depending on the situation they might just do that.

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Joe Blobers

When DS is attacking days after days during years, one person (his project together with 600.000 backers), this is not personal attack right? FUD is okay from a guy who have a proven agenda but pointing out the reason why his ranting can’t be taken seriously and beyond never seen level of toxicity, this is a personal attack?

Double standard are always fun.

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Roger Melly

You have to remember that “one person” you describe has raised well over a hundred million dollars of public money . I would argue such a person a Chris Roberts deserves to be under scrutiny .

I have read his comments here to be honest they don’t seem like rants to me and he puts across a pretty cohesive argument where are many of people how obviously are backers of Star Citizen don’t .

If I was a backer of this game I would want to know what is going on and I would welcome such scrutiny if it made CIG issue a financial statement .

I certainly would be starting to ask questions of where the money I had invested was going just as many of my friends from my gaming community are starting to do now given the time that has passed and the current state of the Alpha .

Estranged
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Estranged

Is it smart to basically hand control of your company to the bank to save $800K, when they can beg for it and receive the funds in one weekend?

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dsmart

No, it’s not. But they’re not raising $4m a month either. And that studio costs about $2m a month to run, according to their 2016 financials.

According to metrics, it will take them over 7 months to raise the amount of this tax credit, via fundraising. Assuming the fundraising was constant – which it isn’t.

And of course that money isn’t raised just for this studio because there are 4 other studios that rely on the monthly fundraising income. So it stands to reason that they would have to take out a loan like this in desperation. They use it for the UK (and possibly GER), leaving the other studios to rely on the US income for the time being.

Estranged
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Estranged

dsmart – true, we had figured out they were running close to break even last summer, with 100 less employees.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS:”Assuming the fundraising was constant – which it isn’t. ”

The fundraising income is obviously not constant… it is growing or stable every single year… with huge spike during the two last quarters. And please do avoid to use “it stands to reason”…. coming from you it sounds like pure profanity :)

Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter:  goal was 2M$.  They got 6M$…
2012: 7M$
2013: 35M$ 12 months –> 28 M$
2014: 68M$ 12 months –>33 M$
2015: 104M$ 12 months –> 36 M$
2016: 140M$ 12 months –> 36 M$
2017: 153M$  (June) 12 months –> TBD M$

Note to Readers: By no means I intented to explain or to convince DS of anything. He is totally airtight to anything that goes against his “prophecies”. This comment is just here to provide to not yet aware genuine Readers about the guy cosmic tendency to obfuscate and lie as soon Star Citizen or Chris Roberts name are in his sight… I.E. every minutes of his life :)

As you can read, situation is desperate :) A prophecy of doom, supposed to happen for SURE every 6 months since 3 years … :)

kingvipes
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kingvipes

When it saves you $800k and the payback of the loan is basically guaranteed by the UK government, absolutely.

Estranged
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Estranged

You guys realize this money isn’t refunded instantly.

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dsmart

It’s not. And that’s why, in giving them this loan, the bank considered it high risk because 1) the company could fold before they are even entitled to the secured tax credits 2) the company could very well not reach the spending limit that triggers the full amount of the allotted tax credit.

Basically it’s not like insurance or lottery payments whereby you know what the amount is. There are companies that do loans against those without needing anything other than the assignment of those winnings as security. In the case of a tax credit, if the bank lends you $4m against a $5m tax credit, they will be out of money if you end up with $3m in tax credits.

And that’s why the bank secured everything.

kingvipes
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kingvipes

You also realize that control of the company is not transferred until they default on the loan right? So for now all what happen is that CIG got money on really good terms as opposed to losing a lot of money doing a currency exchange.

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dsmart

Read section 24 of the filing. Nothing needs to be “transferred”. The bank controls everything and gives them the rights to their own game. If they default, then the bank rescinds that right, and owns everything. There is nothing to “transfer”, as it’s already been transferred by this charge.

Estranged
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Estranged

I certainly wouldn’t put my $152 million dollar precious in peril over peanuts. May have said that at some other point, but I’m tired…

Would be interesting to know what a publisher might offer to pay for Star Citizen and SQ42. Also, what value did the bank put on the company?

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Joe Blobers

Yes so what?

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Roger Melly

I think there is a good chance you will be vindicated at some point over the next couple of years and if that is the case I am curious what will happen then ? Could criminal charges be brought against these developers ?

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dsmart

I don’t envision any criminal charges arising from this, unless there is a lawsuit, Fed investigation (e.g. FTC, State AG) coming from complaints, and during that, they find evidence of wrongdoing.

Short of that, when (it’s no longer “if”) the project fails and the companies fold, there is no recourse other than suing the execs personally, and “piercing the corporate veil” (which is easier nowadays due to new stringent laws) in order to hold them personally liable. And then, then just like what happened with Curt Shilling at 38 Studios, they are likely to lose everything, file for BK etc.

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Joe Blobers

And as usual… a sentence with some legal stuff (FTC… lawsuit… Inverstigation… complaints). FUD require it. This is mandatory :)

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Lol. Derek, you’ve been making these claims since June 2015. And yet CIG are still doing what they set out to do. What was it you claimed previously? That they changed their plans, just to *spite* you?

Derek, you’ve failed time and time again with any of your predictions that are of any significance. You’re not convincing anyone who hasn’t already bought into your special brand of BS already.

fallwind
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fallwind

Camping’s Law. Say something will happen long enough and often enough that if you are eventually right by pure chance you can take total credit and claim you were never wrong.

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Roger Melly

Camping’s Law relates to Harold Camping who predicted the end of the world in 2011 and kept pushing it back when it didn’t happen . He is right though the world will be destroyed when the Sun becomes a red giant in around 7 billion years time . But I would assume Derek Smart is working on smaller time periods wouldn’t you ?

2-5 years is somewhat less than 7 billion after all in the grand scheme of things .

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Roger Christie

Why would you assume that? He’s been promising and failing to deliver the same game for 20+ years.

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Roger, Derek has been predicting the end of CIG / SC / SQ42 for a few years now. This is where the “2 weeks….90 days tops” meme comes from on reddit. So yes, he does work on smaller time periods. But he’s yet to be “vindicated” on anything of notable significance relating to the downfall of CIG or its products.

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Roger Melly

Well I guess within a few years we will know if hes been right all along or not one way or another .

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Jeremy Barnes

Ahhh, the old “I’ve been incorrect about everything so far, but in some vague future date you can’t say that I will be wrong about some vague prognostication”

if you keep changing the target and timeline then maybe one day you can be correct!

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Tarka Roshe

Indeed Roger, however right now his track record of being wrong on so many of his predictions and making outright lies to sound like facts, speaks volumes .

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Roger Melly

I don’t think it a matter of being right or wrong at this point . It is all a matter of conjecture at this point .

My guess is that the game probably will get a release but CIG will run out of money and have to look into investment from elsewhere ( maybe a larger gaming company ) . But it is only a guess I could quite easily be wrong and I would happy to be wrong because I love the concept of Star Citizen but I am less sure about CIG’s abilities to pull it off .

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Tarka Roshe

Indeed, a lot of it is conjecture. And I doubt very many would have a problem IF people such as Derek would specifically indicate that their statements are largely based on conjecture. However, people like Derek just can’t seem to do that. Instead they dress their opinions up to sound like facts and foregone conclusions. Just so people will listen to them.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with being cautious, not believing everything you hear, and questioning everything in order to understand it better. But there’s a big difference between questioning to improve understanding, and just jumping to wild conclusions due to being cynical and jaded.

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Tarka Roshe

Why just be satisfied with winning…..when you can be #Ortwinning :)

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Duane Does not check email

I don’t care what they say… the burning piles of cash will keep us warm for years to come oops it’s all gone.

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Paragon Lost

If DS spent as much time and effort on his own game development as he does on attacking CI he might have a decent mmo of his own. What a waste of bandwidth this guy is.

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Rob Cox

Can’t polish a turd.

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zeko_rena

Nah, no matter how much time he put into something, nothing good would ever be produced, D-bag has no talent what so ever

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Brother Maynard

How is this an issue? Considering the current GBP exchange rate, I would think any sensible international company with most of its revenues in USD and EUR and expenses in GBP would do this… Just a brief look at GBP over the past 2 years – it’s a no brainer. Especially if things continue to go along the current political trajectory.

I.e., “our financial consultant estimates GBP losing X% over the next 12 months, the cost of our deal with the bank will be Y; if Y < X then 'go for it' ".

Also, as far as I could see, the contract is between the bank and Foundry42. And since the game, IP, assets, etc. are owned by the parent U.S. company (CIG) how exactly would this make Star Citizen property of the bank?

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Tarka Roshe

Going off certain other comments in this thread, it seems that no matter what logic and evidence is offered to prove this isn’t really an issue, some people will just stick their fingers and believe what they want to believe.

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mysecretid

Thanks for this. Nice to hear from someone who clearly knows what they’re talking about when it comes to finance issues.

Cheers,

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Brother Maynard

Apologies about the huge picture, somehow it didn’t get resized. And now I can’t seem to be able to delete and re-post…

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Godnaz

The image resizes so no worries. Great post.

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Mikka Hansen

SC is a massive, massive trainwreck waiting to happen, anyone that evolved past neanderthal knows this. He could just sit down and enjoy the show like the rest of us, but instead he insists on dragging himself thru the mud at every single chance.

dude, just let the thing play out, its going to be the mother of all disasters without your “help” anyway

(Comment edited by mod.)

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ichi sakari

Recent discoveries indicate that our understanding of neanderthals has been somewhat inaccurate, scientific consensus is now that they were more intelligent and capable than previously thought

While there is a lot of potential downside with the way SC is being developed, its certainly not a given that it’ll blow up. As a matter of fact, it appears to be progressing along nicely, albeit slower than CR led many to believe.

Take your own advice, let’s see how this plays out. I’m pretty sure sockpuppets can’t see into the future any more clearly than neanderthals.

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Joe Blobers

Yes may be Neanderthals were a bit smarter that expected but they clearly lost the last natural selection against the new mankind:
Homo Citizen! :)

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Roger Melly

Recent research seems to indicate 20 Percent of Neanderthal Genome Lives On in Modern Humans . So we Homosapians are in fact part Neanderthal .

I am not sure why homosapians interbred with them especially after seeing what Neanderthal women probably looked like but the way we view beauty changes in various cultures though out history . So one maybe in prehistory homosapians views the simian look as hot or maybe because neanderthals where the faster and stronger species they were seen as ideal mates .

Also current theory is that Neanderthals were as intelligent as early humans .

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ichi sakari

actually it appears that they interbreed with sapiens and their genes were absorbed into our pool

it may come to pass that the same thing will happen with SC – those who have made a ton of predictions about the eminent demise of the game will be absorbed into the playerbase when the game goes live

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Doubleplusgood

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Roger Melly

I remember around this time last year people arguing whether Squadron 42 would release in 2017 most backers seemed to think it would happen by the middle of this year but as yet we see nothing . In fact I have my doubts that SQ42 will release by the end of this year . I would have thought a single player game would be somewhat less complicated to finish compared to an mmo especially one that is reputedly as complex as an mmo .

The overall impression I get of Star Citizen based on many people I know who are part of our gaming community is that the game is a long way from release . Estimates vary among them but the most optimistic seem to be another two years ( and sometime in 2018 for SQ42 ) .

I think there are a lot of pertinent questions that can be asked about the development of this game but from what I have read here the actions of CIG in regards to this seem to be standard business practice .

Derek Smart sometimes puts across some good points especially in his recent comment about how the backers of this game act on this very website .

“That’s because when they can’t defend the indefensible, they resort to personal attacks, repeatedly making stuff up in order to further those attacks, draw baseless comparisons etc. It’s the classic case of deflection”

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deekay_plus

unfortunately dsmart any good points aside poisons and taints anything he touches due to his own track record as a game “dev” and history as an internet forum warrior. his presense deflects away from the truly reasonable and worrthwile criticsm and concerns to have about this project and gives the fanboys a pariah to claim is guiding some conspiracy of hate against their beloved game.

in reality there is very little actual hate at all for this game. and there certainly isn’t a sizable contingent of people going after it. comparatively the fanboys whoa re more vocal and visible scour the internet daily looking for articles and threads to defend the game against reasonable concerns and criticsm no matter how trivial.

but then they themselves, despite being rabidly visible, don’t represent the larger fan/backer community which share similar concerns as voiced by some on this site. hell the sc subreddit gets tougher than any of us so called accused of beintg haters do on massively.

but derek smart taints every thing he touches as i said. he’s the worst enemy of people who have really worthwhile questions and criticsm to raise about this game.

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Space Captain Zor

If he didn’t chastise people for “speculating” with one hand and then make his own wild speculations with his other, it would be easier to engage him. Well that and he tends to deflect answering real questions. And says dumb shit such as:

And from what I know, and which I haven’t even made public, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Why don’t you just make this public then? Would it not vindicate your claims?

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Roger Melly

From everything I have heard from numerous friends there is not much a game at the moment to hate . There is the promise of a game that may or may not exist one day in the form of an unpolished alpha build .What a fanboy may perceive as hate I would consider legitimate concerns about where the money raised is going and whether the developers ambitions for the game can be realistically achieved in a timely fashion with the money raised . That should concern anyone who has invested in this game .

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Tarka Roshe

Its one thing to be concerned or want to criticially analyse a situation whilst trying to remain objective and respectful, but another to openly show that you want to see it fail because it suits your narrative and be downright myopic, arrogant, disrespectful and vindictive. Those aren’t the same things. And make no mistake, Derek definitely falls into the latter category. Not the former.

The thing is, whilst we mere consumers could and should question what is, and what isn’t possible. However, CIG have already been showing that what some (such as Derek) said can’t be done, they’ve done it. Could CIG fail to reach the finish line? Sure. But it’s foolish to assume that is a foregone conclusion at this point. And THAT is what Derek seems to think. Look no further than his comments above for proof.

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Roger Melly

That should have read .. “about how some the backers of this game act on this very website” . Not all act in such a manner .

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Joe Blobers

I vote last deekay_Plus comment about the Warlordofemptiness :) Just because the internet will be a much better place for everyone without this individual.

About so called fanboys rushing to every single SC article and thread… can someone explain me WHY do we find the very same “others” guys(understand not flagged as fanboys) on the very same article and thread?

Beside that I can provide facts and numbers… interested?

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Roger Melly

“Just because the internet will be a much better place for everyone without this individual”

That is a very weird and extreme statement considering all this “individual” does is offer opinions that you don’t like about a video game .

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Joe Blobers

He did solidifed with this last attempt the SC Community and made more free (good or bad) advertising) on site that never had a word about SC.

The fact he said a game can be delayed is not the problem, close to all projects are delayed, but his behavior is factually toxic to any, so yes I repeat:

“Internet would be healthier without that guy”

Note: I wrote THAT guy… I did not take for me the plurial you use on word individualS

(Comment edited by mod.)

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Roger Melly

Calling someone a clown is a personal attack . You may not like what he has to say but the internet is by nature an open forum and he is quite free to express his views .

You may not like what he says but personally I think given the amount of funding this game has achieved there should be a lot more scrutiny applied to it and a lot more transparency on behalf of CIG as to how that money is being spent and what the state of the companies funds are on a regular basis .

Smart is right it is very suspicious that this only came to light when CIG’s hand was forced to make a statement .

also I never used the plural individuals only the singular individual so I am not quite sure what you are getting at there.

(Comment edited by mod.)

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly: “Calling someone a clown is a personal attack .”:

Not so much sir.
Definition of a clown:

“a comic performer, as in a circus, theatrical production, or the like, who wears an outlandish costume and makeup and entertains by pantomiming common situations or actions in exaggerated or ridiculous fashion, by juggling or tumbling, etc. “

Is there something here that do not apply to this comic performer? :)

But we get it once and for good. Whatever he say, he is right about something. Two decades of lies and obfuscation? who care for sure not Roger Melly…
Keep call for scrutinity as much as you want… that won’t change the fact that CIG and others companies do not disclose financial information for reasons already explained a hundred times.

Disagree? Fine.. at least you have now a new “leader of scrutinity”. It is easy to catch him: oversized shoes and a big red nose :)

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nawledgelambo

I’m more interested in how you are able to breathe on your own.

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MesaSage

Business sure seems easy when you have a license to print currency.

Godnaz
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Godnaz

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Nathaniel Downes
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Nathaniel Downes

Worth it for the Spaceballs reference alone!

dassenlaw
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dassenlaw

Sas interested, saw it was Derek Smart writing pages and pages of “accusations” with his SC hatred and started laughing.

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Godnaz

The first 12hrs on twitter was like the rise and fall. You can seen him get super excited with the initial break of info, only to be slowly brought back down and buried again, changing the subject to world politics.

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deekay_plus

i think sc fanboys are more obssessively attentive to dsmart than he is to this game.

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Roger Christie

He’s certainly more attentive to SC than he is to his OWN game. But that’s par for the course.

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Joe Blobers

deekay_Plus you are joking right? :) Sumup all “fanboys” comments and you are still far away from the clown activities.

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Witches

I’m yet too see any accusations/allegations/allucinations about DS family from the fanboys, on the other hand…

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you obviously aren’t aware sc fans made a subreddit devoted entirely to hanging on his every internet post + making memes about him.

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Rob Cox

It’s actually to keep track of all his lies and everywhere he’s backtracked on things. Star Marine isn’t in 2.6, guys. It’s the hill he will die on. Sandi was an Escort! Etc.

The guy’s a joke and he needs to be held accountable. It’s not for “memes” or “devoted” to him. It’s an archive of every libelous or defamatory comment he’s ever made. If/when he’s sued, there’s a tonne of evidence there.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it’s gross obsessive behaviour is what it is. full stop.

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Tarka Roshe

So, when news outlets report about things Trump says, or people tweet / post about it on social media, are they showing “obsessive behaviour”?

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deekay_plus

a subreddit devoted to posting and nitpicking every single little thing a single private individual says across the internet isn’t even remotely anywhere in the same solar system as the press reporting on the president of the united states

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Rob Cox

a subreddit devoted to posting and nitpicking every single little thing a single private individual says

A subreddit devoted to posting and nitpicking every single little thing a single private individual says *publicly* about Star Citizen being a scam.

He’s pushing very deep into Business Defamation territory.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

Deleted by mod

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Tarka Roshe

I wasn’t just talking about the media. I’m talking about general public as well. What about subreddits dedicated to Donald? or any other specific subject for that matter?

The fact is that if those subjects weren’t considered interesting by some then people wouldn’t want to talk about them.

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deekay_plus

again it’s the president of the united states.

an astronomically massive difference here.

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Tarka Roshe

Again, you focus on one part of what I said and ignore all the rest. However, there is very little difference in this context. They are both VERY public with their feelings and thoughts. And they don’t care what they say. So obviously people are going to take notice.

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deekay_plus

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deekay_plus

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deekay_plus

you must’ve missed every sc article of 2015 across the entire internet then.

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Estranged
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Estranged

I have no words for the obsession with this man.

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Melissa McDonald

/insert popcorn-eating meme

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Danny Smith

Seeing people getting upset about their “$40,000 ships and account investments” makes this look like the most successful snake oil scam in history. Holy shit some of those people are like religious zealots in their brand loyalty defence.

I mean i guess people get testy when they play a game like WoW and feel “criticism of product=judgement on my time/money spent=direct attack on my person” but the folks on reddit going “i just had to chip in another $5000 to get wing commander, but now my wifes upset i dipped into the kids college fund” level stuff is a whole other level of this crazy.

News like this is like kicking the biggest hornets nest in history. It could be amusing in a lolcow kind of way if it wasn’t so genuinely perplexing and downright crazy.

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Tiresias

I’ve been playing the alpha version for some time now. Those modules are quite fun and engaging. I particularly enjoyed the racing.

The game will be both interesting and innovative. We should be glad that a company has gone out on a limb and tried something new and different.

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sfrees .

Although I think a game will be delivered and it will at the very least be playable and moderately fun, I don’t think anyone went out on a limb. The community through truckloads of cash at a croudfunding and continue to give large sums of money in the form of ship purchases. As far as I know Roberts has not spent a single penny of his own money on the project.
You might argue that Roberts is risking his reputation, but Derek Smart has insured that if the game fails, Roberts will have an out.

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Joe Blobers

Sfrees… yes CR did trhow several M$ together with a few selected shareholder. It is just not part of the crowfunded bucket.

Estranged
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Estranged

What is new about it?

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Santiago Draco

What is new? Compared to what? You are either actually ignorant or just, well, something far less than ignorant.

Estranged
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Estranged

You didn’t answer the question. Speaks volumes.

It is a fictional narrative.

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Alberto

And Once again people fall for a certain Internet Warlords and some bitter ex-backers BS FUD campaign..its like Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times ..Four??? This is the problem w today’s Fake news and the Internets websites ( not MOP) need to be FIRST and not really do proper vetting of their sources.

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Dobablo

OMG! Coutts is an RBS subsidiary and RBS is 73% owned by the UK government which means that Star Citizen is another state-funded vanity MMO project owned by the Queen!

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Dobablo

Grrrr. RBS might have sold Coutts a couple of years ago. That ruins my tinfoil hat stream of flawless logic.

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Jeremy Barnes

Never let facts get in the way of a good crusade!

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Brian McBride

$152 million?
Is their burn rate really 30mil a year? That’s nuts – or they have a crapload of cash on-hand and they are a bank.

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Joe Blobers

Here Brian McBride some numbers. This level of expense per year is new since a year at best. Previous numbers do show much smaller team. Also CIG benefit of substantial tax deduction (8m£ for UK).
CIG do have at least a year of cash in hands, and they gather on average 2 M$ of new pledges monthly, without special events… This is under control.

Some key dates and numbers:

– Employees count:
Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter: Chris Roberts and around 10 people   
2013:  48       (Austin: 34 –  LA: 14)
2014: 161      (Austin: 55 –  LA: 38 –  Manchester: 68)
2015: 258      (Austin: 57 –  LA: 41 –  Manchester: 132 – Frankfurt: 28)
2016: 363      (Austin: 54 –  LA: 64 –  Manchester: 191 – Frankfurt: 54)
2017: 428 (April)  

– Pledges chart:
Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter:  goal was 2M$.  They got 6M$…
2012: 7M$
2013: 35M$
2014: 68M$
2015: 104M$
2016: 140M$
2017: 150M$  (May)

Estranged
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Estranged

How would you know how much cash they have on hand?

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Joe Blobers

Experience with International huge project and… computation based on team size, pledges, tax credit.

This is an estimation of course and I am pretty good at that.

Last year I estimated to a year and half. Now with a team of 428, I re-evaluate to a year… that can last forever as M$ are still pledges every months. Release of at least two big patch 3.0 and 3.1, may be 3.2, before the end of the year + schedule of release for SQ42 Chapter 1 later this year is going to bring a lot more new backers or guys on the fence.

That is why rushing what they have now for SQ42 would be a terrible mistake. It must be close to “perfect” as everybody will look at it. So better release it mid-2018 rather than push it for Christmas 2017… unless they are very confident.

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Dividion

They have an internal staff of almost 400 and 4 offices, plus contractors and hosting expenses. When you run the numbers that’s a pretty high burn rate (likely around 3mil/mo). Of course, they didn’t start out with nearly so many people. It took them 5 years to get there. And don’t forget the A-list actors and motion capture expenses for the Squadron 42 scenes.

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edangerous

Typical deceptive lawyer speak. Despite what Ortwin might claim they have actually signed the rights to everything (except for the Star Citizen IP) over to the bank. The filing document is quite clear about that and it is Coutts that is issuing CIG a license to continue work on the “Game”.

Obviously this won’t happen but if CIG were unable to meet their payments Coutts has the right to withdraw the issued license.

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Joe Blobers

Edangerous…. your statement describe normal loan wording. And it has been explain by CIG why they did it. The journalists that took the time to check this story say this is business as usual… are they also fanboys? Now you can believe there is a conspiracy :)

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Santiago Draco

Hi Derek. Well, either Derek or someone just as disingenuous as Derek.

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Lethality

No, thats not what happened at all.

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primal

Either way it’s only against the UK branch and not everything in the world like not so smart thinks. So they would only be able to stop squadron 42 not star citizen

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Joe Blobers

This clown won’t even stop a fly to escape a closed glass jar…. :)

edangerous
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edangerous

That’s correct.

I wish Derek Smart would keep his mouth shut and stay out of this, the guy is just a raging blowhard and as soon as he gets involved with any legitimate criticism it takes a downturn.

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primal

Thinking about it, the bank doesn’t own anything they have just secured the assets and IP against the loan same as you’d say put your house up for a big loan. The bank doesn’t own it until you can’t pay then they can come sieze it to pay for it. So I think ortwin explanation is right

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Santiago Draco

All these idiots implying that the UK (or any entity of the UK government) owns or in ANY way has control of Star Citizen are delusional or idiots. As you said it’s like saying a bank can tell you what you can or can’t do with your home or that they can walk in the second you miss a payment.

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Joe Blobers

… and for those interested, among one of the first few site yesterday shooting crap is now providing apologise:

Press-Start: “We’d like to apologise to Cloud Imperium Games for not clarifying with them on the specifics of this prior to posting.” self.starcitizen

:)
24 hours of drama is always for internet… but not for the planet.

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Sally Bowls

What is the number? Is there something similar to the FIA where the government payouts are publicly available? Obviously, it has to be “substantial” you don’t hire financial advisors and currency advisors and Couts to process fifty quid.

Google seems to think the payment is 25% (bold mine)

Video games companies across the UK will be able to begin claiming tax relief on their production costs, as the government’s cultural regulations come into force today, 19 August 2014.
With tax relief only available for companies producing games that are certified as culturally British, today’s milestone marks the completion of the legislation and will see the first companies begin to benefit.
The cultural test ensures that the tax relief supports the production of culturally British games.
Video games must achieve a level of points which they are awarded based on their cultural content, cultural contribution and the location of the game’s development and nationalities of key personnel working on the project.

So S42 is certified culturally British? governments. sigh.

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Armsbend

The French do this as well:
http://www.filmfrance.net/v2/gb/home.cfm?choixmenu=taxrebate

Twin Peaks is using it. I was wondering why it was in the credits every episode. I haven’t seen anything particularly french in the new season unless you count the nouveau style.

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Dobablo

Culturally British is a horrible sounding description, but what it actually means is… (http://www.bfi.org.uk/film-industry/british-certification-tax-relief/cultural-test-video-games)
UK registered company & scores 16+ out of 31 on a rating scale, and that rating scale is very fuzzy. About half marks are for where the game is set, the nationality of participants and the main language while a quarter of the marks are from having at least 1/3rd of each production team consist of EEA nationals.
The total for “Video game represents/reflects British creativity, British heritage or diversity” is a measly 13%

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Sally Bowls

I noticed that? “Among those films last year to be certified as British, and thus eligible for the tax relief, were “Guardians of the Galaxy,” “Maleficent” and “Thor: The Dark World.”” this is not unusual; just that when the government is giving away money, logic and efficiency don’t matter as much.

Are the amounts public knowledge? Not a big deal but game companies hide their finances so much, it would be interesting to see actually what S42 is spending.

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Dobablo

All companies registered in the UK must make their accounts available via Companies House. The most recently accounts are for year end 2015. The 2016 accounts are due to be filed by 30th September. The 2015 accounts (and charge registration which led to the latest discussion) can be found at https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08815227/filing-history

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Wendigo Runner

oh-my-god does this guy never leave his basement or what. O_o

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Alberto

never..ever..ever..he like a certain pres who can’t stay off Twitter either…………

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Wendigo Runner

Egads, the similarities are disturbing.

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Byórðæįr

so the game credit that every studio that moved to keep their game or film tax credits is being borrowed against. having played up to 2.6 and knowing about a third of the staff many from working on modern warfare three, the rest from film. They are not slackers. They may run into issues they can not solve but as long as they keep paying their employees and appear to still be making progress that is pretty much all they have to do to keep that rebate coming in. The point of the rebates is create jobs in the entertainment industry not to have games or films made. Meaning normal people that might be out of work otherwise, going to work and paying their taxes. As far as I know only two studios ever got sideways both for different reasons but both failed to pay their employees as a primary issue.

There were a couple of guys in IT who used to predict the world was ending for pc gaming and they would usually cite they they were a producer or what ever. Most of those people if you actually knew what they did was much funnier. They mostly worked in human resources and wrote their own titles on their resumes then got jobs elsewhere before someone saw the resumes and found out they were pulling a fast one. I remember when I worked at Activision Blizzard years ago they were not allowed to say what our title was, what we worked on, or how much we made, only that we actually worked there. I know part of it was cover the military veterans who were hired for input on the modern warfare games so that people did not blame them if was realistic or not since input not decision making is what they wanted. ATVI wanted a fun game for the military guys as well. I am sure the rest was to cover any slander charges from an HR type saying someone was broom pusher because they had a bad day.

The point is when RSI had problems we did not know until they fixed the issue and even then there were people who spent more than they could afford screaming the world was ending hoping for a refund. There is really one game I felt that really let me down for what I spent backing it and I did not ask for a refund because I saw it as an investment, something that could not have gotten made if people did not have the guts to risk money for something that would be worth more than the money risked. Do we know if star citizen and squadron 42 will be worth it when it gets done. No not even close, but there are a lot of talented people working on the game which suggests by what they have gotten done it is very likely that it be a really good game for some people, how many and what type of people you don’t really know until the game goes gold. People should treat backing video games as two things. One a chance to get to see more of what goes into game development and two as an investment into a game that a traditional publisher might not have been able to convince a board of shareholders that it was as sound a bet as any other investment they might invest in. no matter if like Pepsi or Coke the odds are if you buy a single share of their stock in ten years time it is going to be worth more money. Traditional publishers have to work with investors that are looking for sound stocks not people’s dreams. So I see investing in games is like being an angle investor.

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Jeremy Barnes

” I remember when I worked at Activision Blizzard years ago they were not allowed to say what our title was, what we worked on, or how much we made, only that we actually worked there.”

This is a law in the US. You’re only allowed to confirm if someone worked there, the dates they were employed and a yes/no if you would re-hire them

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

if you really do work in the industry then you’d full well know that the sort of “seeing what goes into game development” has become pretty routine across a wide number of companies in the current decade. predating star citizen even.

i mean steam early access has been a thing for how many years? minecraft and notch’s famous on stream coding marathons for how many more years?

and what makes you think that a publisher wouldn’t take a game like this on other than chris roberts’ track record with running game companies into the ground and needing to be bailed out? based on what evidence? and against the mountain of evidence of what publishers have been putting out the last several years?

generally speaking these high profile kickstarters are not a matter of publishers not being willing to get on board – but rather the rockstar lead devs behind them not wanting oversight on keeping milestones on time or on purse strings. with few exceptions. and their behaviour is nothing but proving that time and time again with sc and other ks games.

we are not investors – cr doesn’t have the respect for us he would need to show actual investors. milestones are routinely delayed without the courtesy of an explaination, and pulling out our investments means talking to state criminal prosecution offices. that’s not an investment in any sense of the word.

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Byórðæįr

First you know zero about me so do not try to speak for me or say who or what I have done that is red herring. That out of the way.

I have worked in the games industry for decades and have enough developer passes to various expos and game credits on moby games for any developer to be willing to say ya he works in the industry. It is small industry most of the people in games know who worked and works in the industry.

What ever else I simply backed rsi with actual dollars because I saw something worth investing in. I have done the kaplin finical course and was a stock broker for a very short period of time before I realized selling stock to people who needed it but did not want to pay what ever I asked was not something I was interested in doing. Research I was very good at but when you have clients in an office and show them what the stocks cost and they always ask so what is the price for me like I was some kind of used car salesmen. Some one tried to hire me back as stock broker and the money is not enough to get me to deal with people who know nothing about finance tell me that their brother bought for half the price a week ago and I just have to…

kick starter is really what it says. it is way to drive numbers to put money where their mouth is and at that point a studio can talk to investors showing that they have the sixty percent of what they need to get investors to say yes I will match you funds while not asking for the company. I backed double fine who pretty much took kick starter from this little site no one used to site it is today. There were companies that failed and companies that succeed but the ones that succeed generally were told by EA, ATVI, etc… that they would be greenlite not the steam version but the old use of the term where you got money and had to meet milestones set by the publisher often set by the board trying to explain to the shareholders that by their annual required meetings that they would have information to share and preferably pretty pictures. which usually means that some of the money for the current game had to be used to work through ideas for new games so that when they went to publishers they had more than ideas.

Meaning that most of the companies that succeeded had done so in the past but wanted more control over what they wanted to build. As far as milestones go the ones in normal published games well most of those are missed in most titles. MW3 one of the best selling titles with seventy six million preorders that missed fifteen milestones set by ATVI. They simply brought on three studios to work on it that they have as in house studios. Avalance good people had to rebuild most of the game they were working on because some donkey trusted someone to walk through the studio who went to zoic as an intern and got Zoic (we did not know anything either way at the time) to go to Activision to build skylanders. I did not find out any details on that until the stockholders meeting due to holding stock in Disney. That game made money but not as much as was poured into it. Skylanders on the other hand targeted the impulse buy level and did not hire the intern but simply paid him for the idea, and built a solid game that basically sold toys to kids. The different between the two games? simply Disney markets toys based on ip and ATVI employees focus groups and knows how thin a margin they need to target with other games on the market competing for dollars. Battle field verse Call of Duty. Disney’s focus groups aim and the kid liking the toy with the idea of minimal returns. Different strategies for different groups of shareholders.

As far as thinking if that if rsi keeps moving forward that the game should be good, that is my own personal opinion and nothing more. My point was more that most people seeing the banking note are seeing what looks like fear uncertainty and doubt. It does not look like an honest evaluation of the company but some one with an axe to grin. As far as the game milestones if you were paying attention rsi did a very cool look at mile stones but having seen actual miles stones both at Activision blizzard and Disney media group, I was laughing their miles stones are way more detailed and likely to be hit than the ones we supplied to Microsoft for gold certification and the shareholders than the ones rsi supplied to the backers. I remember talking to one of the senior developers at Activision during modern warfare when we were showed the mile stones and he told me that the miles stones was simply so that the publisher would know if more money was needed or if game needed to be canceled. Then he freaked out realizing that might get to the testers and some of the developers and said
don’t scare the new guys. That was under Vivendi Games and many of the developers work at other companies now, and Activision Blizzard bought themselves out from toys r us. The thing is rsi could screw up they got to the point where the systems they were using could not do what they wanted and they found a solution before pushing the eject button. Companies that last are the ones that go to work every day knowing that the money only continues to come in as long a results continue. What I expect is that there is are not going to be any issues until they have a jita or iron forge situation and have to figure out how to deal with a million users all trying to request the same line in the data base at the same time. I figure it likely will be the starting area or if that is instanced the area just after the starting area.

The thing is Chris Roberts is funny even when he is upset because he is visibly passionate about the game. That is a good thing. It is like when you hand a child a toy and they want to play with it right away while standing there waiting in line for something. That tells me the goal of the game is supposed to be fun not simply generate revenue.

Minecraft is fascinating how many people enjoy it, and I mean by that are willing to spend hours mining resources and building complex designs in it. That said mine craft had less lines of code than some of the set extensions I have built. Fun game not terribly complex which for most programs that is good thing. Both minecraft and castle crashers fit on ten megabyte down load when they were released, as xbox download games, what over a decade ago now?

Backers are investors but you have to understand you did not buy stock in the company what you did is buy futures much like investors that buy unfound oil, and sell and resell it. The point is not to call the state attorney and scream buyers remorse because the game takes six months longer but accept as long as the studio is up and running they are working on the game. But people who have released a tripple A title understand these things take time, and usually longer than anyone wants to admit because any title in developer longer than four years was using money from another game’s budget. So I am going to relax and chill out and when the game comes out in 2018 or 2020 I am going to play the game that they managed to finish at that point and look at wow and laugh at how much of wow was built after 2004.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

wall of incoherent rambling text crits you for over 9k!

kickstarter is not investing. it’s a prepurchase of products and subject to consumer protection laws (which when consumers rights groups clue in we’re very quickly going to see the death of it because it’s so hilariously in violation of laws in even very business friendly states and countries).

investment expects a monetary return on investment. not a product. if you weren’t so obviously full of shit in your claims (oh wow a stock broker too!) you’d know that and it wouldn’t have to be explained to you.

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Utakata

I think we’ve all been guilty of incoherent rambling walls of text from time to time, including yourself on a few occasions I’ll add. The question should always be whether the substance has any merit and not instead the way it’s presented. And yes, some folks like to articulate ideas from the sound bites and punch lines…I guess it both has its advantages and negatives, depending one’s patience and time to read through it. :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i read it. hence my response. did you?

no ofc you didn’t because you’re chomping at the bit to post some more flame bait as usual.

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Byórðæįr

I think I am going to leave the point the way it stands. I feel sorry that your only fun in life is mocking what you do not understand.

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Its what he does.

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primal

Ummm he never said you were investors by kickstarting, he said kickstarters lead to investment. Try reading it

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

he called kickstarter an investment. as painful as it was i did read it.

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Space Captain Zor

From now on should we expect you to correct/mock each and every person who refers to their pledge as an “investment” ? I am pretty sure you know people casually use that word all the time to mean what they say and not precisely what the word itself means.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

should we expect you to correct or mock everyone who says anything you disagree with wrt to star citizen?

yes we should because you’ve been doing it for years.

wrt to this particular case, the man claimed to be a game dev with decades of experience AND a fucking stock broker. ffs you people are ripe.

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Space Captain Zor

Firstly, idk what you mean by “wrt”

Secondly, what exactly did I disagree with? I completely agree that investment is the wrong word to use. But I know people toss it around wholesale anyway because it’s easy, and it’s just as easy to ignore while addressing other (real) issues.

Thirdly, I have no idea what point you’re trying to make by reciting what he claims to be or have been. People, including yourself, make grandiose claims on these comment threads all the time.

ffs you people are ripe.

really though…

If you’d wear a tad thicker armor and not consider everything I say as a personal attack you’d maybe notice I was simply trying to show to you that you were being pretty unreasonable for the sake of being dismissive of the rest of his arguments.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i think i’m wearing pretty thick armour considering the treatment i get in these articles. thank you very much.

wrt = with regards to.

the contents of the guy’s post was alot of bullshit that’s been in the press and major discussion venues the past six months while pretending to have super secret insider knowledge while pretending to be a game dev with “decades of experience” while also pretending to be a “stock broker” with decades of experience.

one begs how this guy has time to sleep with his two time ultra intensive careers.

otherwise it’s obvious he’s full of shit.

but keep defending it.

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Space Captain Zor

“pretending” to have insider/industry knowledge same as you do, you mean? ;)

lol I don’t have to come to any defense at all when you say stuff like he’s “pretending to be a game dev” and “it’s obvious he’s full of shit” when neither you nor I actually know anything about this person.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

no it’s zero like that. he’s presenting stuff that has been in the news or major discussion venues in teh last few months without adding any inside knowledge whatsoever.

there is no insider stuff there. zero.

the obviioniousness of his full of shitiness peaked before he claimed to be a stock broker on top of it.

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Space Captain Zor

lol maybe, maybe not, but in the end you have to choose your battles and decide what point does it serve to focus in on it if you still think its bs? Go after the points the person makes rather than the person. It will help your blood pressure.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you’re not a bad guy after all captain zor. this one’s for you.

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Space Captain Zor

cheers :P

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Tobasco da Gama

You’d think people would have stopped listening to Mr. Dr. Smart after the first dozen times he was wrong about everything, but here we are.

Tarka Roshe
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Tarka Roshe

Some people are born idiots. Others see that as a life goal.

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Yuri Geinish

The failure is not “yet to happen”. There is still no game, three years overdue. The absence of promised product *is* the failure. People who continue to pour money into it must be mentally ill – gambling habits, etc.

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Castagere Shaikura

LOL is it really 3 years overdue? Man that’s just crazy to me. And they are still getting people to give them money.

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Joe Blobers

No it is not… you should be aware that on internet, anyone can say anything right? The guys speaking about 2014 are always referring to only half the truth (otherwise it is not so fun…).
Fact is that they could have provided a pretty average space fight game 3 years ago… but because of the large (16 times more pledges per year versus expected target of 2M$… every year) Chris Roberts asked the Community about switching new challenge: 2 x AAA games. One solo (Squadron 42) and one MMO (Stra Citizen)…

Since then backers have voted with their wallets:

Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter:  goal was 2M$.  They got 6M$…
2012: 7M$
2013: 35M$
2014: 68M$
2015: 104M$
2016: 140M$
2017: 152M$  (June)

SQ42 Chapter 1 schedule release will be provided later this year and SC Beta expected by end of 2018.
6 Years end of 2018 starting from a team of 12 end of Nov.2012…. the story is a bit different right? :)

This is coming, no trouble man.

necropsie
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necropsie

There are people who believe that Armageddon has come and a space ship will save themselves. Once a year, they gather on top of a mountain. Space ship never comes. Nevertheless, they continue to believe in their leaders who tell them to “wait”.

Cult members do not make sense. Star Citizen is a cult too, so the “supporters” will continue to invest even after 10 years.

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Jeremy Barnes

It’s two cults really. There’s the people who believe everything about the game is perfect and the people who believe that nothing about it is good.

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Utakata

I think you should get yourself up to speed to where soft launches and early access are all the rage…for right or for wrong. And where we long left the world where games played where fully released products, and alpha/beta access where all under tight NDA’s. Therefor, if you think this Star Citizen is absence now, so is every other game currently in development. So Secret World Legends doesn’t exist, Revelations Online is entirely imaginary, Ark Survival is an invisible game…I could go on. None of these are true. And thusly, Star Citizen is very much a real playable thing, and not some vaporware wafting over a grassy knoll as you seem to imply.

Estranged
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Estranged

The poster formerly known as Mana:

The difference is ARK and these other games are robust and fully playable. SC is a few average modules thrown together at this juncture. Something barely above a tech demo.

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Utakata

(Note: Technically it’s still Manastu Utakata. I’ve just used to MOP naming option to shorten it to something more simpler and manageable on the vocabulary. Do you mind?)

The difference is irrelevant. SC is still playable and present regardless how far it’s development is in comparison to other games mentioned.

Estranged
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Estranged

Don’t be so serious. :)

Nathaniel Downes
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Nathaniel Downes

People log in, and play, right now. As such, claims that there is no game is complete hogwash.

Estranged
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Estranged

ND, if this qualifies for a game today, the industry surely has lower standards.

Nathaniel Downes
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Nathaniel Downes

Let me guess, you didn’t visit Steam Greenlight before it shut down.

Estranged
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Estranged

ND – Yes, I do, but those games hadn’t pulled in 152 million.

Nathaniel Downes
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Nathaniel Downes

That is, actually, completely irrelevant.

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zeko_rena

There are games in early access on Steam right now that have less content, don’t even need to remember the hell that was Greenlight, not to mention all these stupid pixel games coming out

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Bruno Brito

I’m highly certain that people play something. Wouldn’t call the complete game, but they did touch it, played it, and had fun with it.

Judging them as “mentally ill” is a low blow of your part.

quark1020
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quark1020

Can you truly call something a failure if people are still paying money for it? There may or may not be something to show for it, but people are still buying it, lol.

Godnaz
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Godnaz

CIG are utilising a bank loan to obtain money from a UK Tax Rebate for game companies early. They take the loan money now and when the tax rebate comes in that goes to the bank. The idea is that it is better to get the money now because in a years time the GBP will go further to shit due to Brexit and the clusterfuck UK political situation. It seems like a sound move that will save them money overall.

The fact they had to release this statement shows how fucking desperate people are for Star Citizen to fail.

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Sally Bowls

Can we have a moment of silence in condolence for the taxpayers? Rhode Island to 38 studios, EU taxpayers to Aventurine & DarkFall. This is less sketchy, but I at least start as skeptical about the cost effectiveness of any subsidy to any special interest group.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i like ot joke that if i ever start putting my money into investments to tell my investment manager explcitly not to invest in video games. XD

luxundae
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luxundae

A company took out a loan to smooth cash flow across different currencies based on financial advisers’ opinions.

I…think I’m ok with that? I’ve never been asked to have an opinion on that sort of thing before, but that’s the internet for you :)

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Iain B

“It’s worth reiterating that just this weekend, the company hauled in at least half a million dollars (by conservative estimate) thanks to the 14,000 backers who purchased the latest concept ship during its first day of sale. ”

I guess I still don’t understand the mentality of the people who are willing to just keep giving this company their money, hand over fist, in the hopes that they actually get a game out of it.

Not to mention just the outright cost of everything associated with this game, it’s insane. $360 for digital space ship. $360-fucking-dollars. Is this real life?

EDIT: There is a $3000 USD ship on their website. $3000. That’s actually disgusting.

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Joe Blobers

Iain B, Playing MMO on a long run will cost way more than that. Try to understand how works crowfunding (you pay first and get the project finished after developement) and those amount make sense.

Can’t afford 3000$? no problem, there are 40$ package and you got the game with it. people do whatever they want with there hard earn money.