Star Citizen addresses its latest delay, studio is ‘working feverishly’ on 3.0

If you were one of the many backers and industry watchers raising eyebrows over Star Citizen’s latest production schedule report and delay, you’re going to want to read the followup.

Cloud Imperium’s Will “Soulcrusher” Leverett addressed followers on Spectrum, reminding everyone that the production schedule has always been merely an estimate and that the scope of the 3.0 update is “an an order of magnitude larger and more complex than all of our previous versions combined” such that “integrating all of [it] has revealed to be MUCH more of a bug fixing project than anticipated, which obviously reshapes those estimates and changes those dates.”

“As gamers, we are conditioned to consider all dates as static points in time that we can wrap our heads around and plan for in advance,” he argues. “The nature of this project does not neatly fit into that mold due to the complexity of what we’re building, and with what we learn about what’s possible and needed along the way. These date ranges are dynamic according to the challenges presented to us at that time, and we actively maintain that to keep you up to date.”

Further, he posits, “what 3.0 meant a year ago is a shadow of what 3.0 means today.” He’s specifically referring to planetary tech, which has been expanded heavily to feature dynamism, immersion, and seamless loading. This particular section of the community address has been the subject of heavy debate as people point out that while 3.0 is bigger than first planned, a lot has been removed from 3.0 as well, and that planetary tech was promised for 3.0 as early as a year ago, just not in this form.

“It’s about giving us the city and planet building tools to create for you the rest of the universe in an intelligent, scalable, efficient, and compelling manner. It’s about the first step in giving you the tools to create player outposts and communities. It’s about the streaming tech to allow you to take off from one moon, fly across the system, and land on an entirely different moon, the driving a freaking sweet buggy out of the back of your ship to race around the entire planet… all without a loading screen. It’s about giving you the ability to buy what’s on the web inside kiosks. It’s about usable turret gameplay, and Items 2.0 so you can customize your own ship with new components. It’s about picking objects and cargo so you can haul commodities across space as a trader and merchant. It’s about gutting a singleplayer engine to support thousands of players. It’s about infrastructure that we needed to develop because there are no off-the-shelf solutions for building an immersive experience like no other.”

“The entire company is working feverishly to get you 3.0,” he promises.

Source: Spectrum. Thanks, Ken!
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272 Comments on "Star Citizen addresses its latest delay, studio is ‘working feverishly’ on 3.0"

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Darkwalker75 .

Some perspective from actual developers not armchair ones (who have never worked on a triple A video game or as a Lead project manager)

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/4w33ed/why-its-so-hard-to-make-a-video-game
Delays, broken deadlines, internal meltdown are all apart of game development. Sorry if you didn’t know, but that’s their reality.

If you’re trying to do something new that means you’re inherently unable to estimate it accurately. – Samantha Kalman

Games are these really little magical boxes that run on smoke. The less visible stuff is holding the game up just as much as all that other stuff. – Nina Freeman

Everyone is building their own fantasy of what the product needs to be, has to be, wants to be. But you forget about what the product is. – Antoine Thisdale

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Sur Couf

I do not know a lot about game development but looking from where they start and where they are, my 35$ pledge for an Aurora 3 years ago is a good investment. I check current state of game from time to time and I see since a few quarters, mainly end of 2016, much more interesting features. ATV’s are great (may be they have more to show?) and I guess like many people, I am very interested to see the patch everybody is talking about.
I put a marker in my agenda in September for PU (Kudo to Evocati as I do not have the time for that and probably motivation). If it is coming a bit before. Good, otherwise, there is no hurry.

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NovaScotiaCitizen

ahh.. like every year, it must be shortly before Gamescom when all the trolls come out of the woods, trying to spoil CIG being in the limelight with another technical marvel, demonstrating things that have NEVER done before in any game.

I wonder if these jealous poppycutters hate Elon Musk and Richard Branson too, like they hate Chris Roberts.

A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity.

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Roger Melly

There is a reason why Elon Musk and Richard Branson are worth hundreds of millions and Chris Roberts isn’t they have a good track record of achieving their goals .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”good track record of achieving their goals”

Subsidiary question: What are the records of each (all) individual postings in forum versus whoever they laught at?
Or if you prefer, on a scale of successfulness from Homo Erectus through CR to E.Musk, where each one is going to put his little flag?… If forum access was limited to even an average score… most would be as alive than Gobi desert at noon :)

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Lel, by god the way you and all the other fanatics go on… you would think CIG are paying you all by the buzzword. Have some self-respect.

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Joe Blobers

Quote cmdr_cotic:”you would think CIG are paying you all ”

How do you describe your own ranting… You stick to your opinion, are you paid for it?

The buzz you are referring to is exactly that… buzz… generated by the very nature of crowdfunding that let hundred of thousands people with zero culture/knowledge about game development get in.

Fine, nobody is borned with universal knowledge… But it is not forbidden to try to make very small effort to make a link between basic factors like date vs team size, budget, tools available. or to stop comparing multi-billions $ companies like EA with “infinite” ressource at day one… not counting the inevitable trolls that love to spread lies and obfuscation in every single project for the sake of “fun” (not exclusive to SC).

The buzz is strong because the project is big…

This is precisely because some do have self-respect that they do not accept that a very few numbers of guys spread non-sense “facts” all day long.

That is one thing to upvote a Reddit thread to express a frustration or disapproval… (less than 1% of SC Reddit subscribers and going down as long as people connect to Reddit)… it is another to shoot statement that are clearly falling in the diffamation category rather than what is known as “pure opinion”.

And you, cmdr_cotic are insulting a guy with… Quote:
“He wouldn’t understand, he’s only got an IQ of 75 (and is proud of it).”

Self-respect you say….

Estranged
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Estranged

Nova – people aren’t jealous, they are calling shenanigans.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

*

citizen space.gif
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NovaScotiaCitizen

((Deleted by mod.))

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Oleg Chebeneev

Scotty gives advice to CIG on managing backer expectations

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GoJammit

100%

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Mikka Hansen

Is there anyone out there that doesnt think by now SC is a yuge pyramid scheme?

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GoJammit

Only people who don’t actually know what a pyramid scheme is think it’s a pyramid scheme. I’d have more respect for you if you just called it a scam. It’s a false assertion as well, but at least then you don’t look silly for using words you don’t understand.

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NovaScotiaCitizen

((Deleted by mod.))

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Mikka Hansen

((Deleted by mod.))

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Joe Blobers

Quote Mikka Hansen;”its beyond obvious that the constant ”

it is beyond obvious you do not follow either the game from start and understanding reality of factors that are part of a game development.

So talking about the cusp of a pyramid when you keep ignoring how fundation are built.. :)

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Oleg Chebeneev

Those who consider SC pyramid scheme have zero clue about SC and what people are working on it. There are some very respected, even legendary, developers in Chris’ team, including those who made Cry Engine.
The game is also the most transparent ever with development process being fully covered on weekly basis

Estranged
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Estranged

Mikka – depends on the refund rate.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Estranged:”depends on the refund rate.”

This refund thing is part of the obfuscation campaign. Last right 3 days during the inevitable little “drama” of delay, +200K $ have been pledges.

CIG do have at least a year of cash ahead at current team size and pledges are stable and soon going to bump again with 3.0.

So beside some looking at creating a fog of uncertainty with the old “what if” trick, the whole project has never been so strong :)

Estranged
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Estranged

Joe – unless you are in the inner circle, no way to know how much money they have in reserve.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Estranged:”unless you are in the inner circle, no way to know how much money they have in reserve.”

Yes no way to know for sure the size of March planet just by looking at it… but some math and safe estimation (min and max) of differents costs for such project, allow to approach at around +-10% (which is huge) the remaining cash.

I do not shoot “at least a year of cash” because I believe CR is King Midas reincarnate…

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Roger Melly

Pledges are down this year compared to previous years and it is not out of the bounds of possibility that they will become lower in 2018 and beyond especially with all the delays and as others have pointed out in this forum some people are starting to look for full or partial refunds .

The project seems strong but as you point out they have at least a year but you would hope they have at least three years because the rate of development is not what the developers themselves had desired so given that and the current state of the game it is not only possible but also likely it could take another three years to release the game ( if they don’t want to release a drastically scaled down version of it that is ) .

The problem is ( and I have pointed out this before ) is no one knows the rate of expenditure or how many people are asking for refunds and although “at least a year ” is a reasonable assumption it is also at best guess work and I don’t think anyone expects this game to be finished within a year do they ?

And meanwhile the delays continue .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”Pledges are down this year compared to previous years and it is not out of the bounds of possibility that they will become lower in 2018″
True, H1 2017 bring 300K minus 2016…. A true collapse

H1 2016: 12.4 M$
H1 2017: 12.1 M$

This is a proof that CIG do have a substantial players pie waiting, even after 5 years and slowly joining. the base is strong… and the numbers of players in the few coming quarters evne stronger.

Remove the handfull of guys rushing every SC article to shoot “refund” and visible and the refund before too late threat is a field of emptiness compared to the intangible backers base. This is totally negligeable. The last three days, right during this little drama of delays, bring +200K…

There is today a bit more than 1 year of full team expenditure in CIG bucket and at the current rate they do receive 30M$ on average in a full year. hence the bucket is untouched… Financial risk is equal to zero.
Only people spreading their prophecy of Doom… to help backers as per their own assertion :)

Like it or not, 3.0 is coming in a few weeks… this is not the end. Then a schedule report will be provided by CIG for 3.1 as well as a shcedule of release for SQ42 Chapter 1 later this year.

The next 17 months (till end of 2018) are going to provide so much contents, hence visibility to people on the fence that 2018 is absolutely not a risky period, quite the opposite. A revelation not a doom :)

reanor
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reanor

Hopefully, you are right. Please don’t quote what I said, or I’ll slap you upside down…

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NovaScotiaCitizen

((Deleted by mod. Please review our commenting code of conduct.))

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zeko_rena

A lot of these people who are not “invested” in the game seem pretty heavily emotionally invested judging by there comment crusades hahahahahahahahaha

Put the time used commenting to good use, build a game better than Star Citizen

Estranged
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Estranged

zeko – I see where you are coming from on the subject. I’m only $75 into the project. One discounted package and another at regular price before the games were split. My real interest was SQ42. Given they seem to have done little with it at this stage, given SQ42 was basically the original goal – I’m disappointed.

Also, I’m just upset with the continued spin, pandering and basic BS. Yeah, I don’t want the big dollar backers to lose their money or be disappointed. My intentions are good.

I just feel their statements have been a combination of disingenuous and PR BS. It is one thing to do this with their own money – but, backer money? Just wrong, in my opinion.

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Space Captain Zor

Unless they’ve been lying for 4+ years then the majority of development is actually focused on SQ42 in contrast to your view. They “seem” to have done little with SQ42 at this stage because SQ42 is mostly being developed in the traditional closed-door method–if what they claim is true (what they’ve shown relative to what time and resources are dedicated to it). Personally I believe it, as it makes sense to keep the door closed on a single player story that’s meant to rock everyones socks off in unparalleled cinematic fashion. Their cards are close to the chest because SQ42 has to really be a winner.

That being said they need to freaking put out a proper trailer for it already.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor – sure would ease my feelings.

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zeko_rena

I can agree with you on the SQ42 front, I am looking forward to both SQ42 and SC a lot, but SQ42 has gone real quiet lately (unless I missed news, I don’t keep super up to date) everything seems to be focused on 3.0 for the last six to eight months.

Is a bit of a shame because would be awesome to get the first season of SQ42 finished and out the door into backers hands as far as I know it has no planet tech required unless they are now adding missions on planets… which would be a pain, just do that in the second season of missions.

Hopefully we get some good news on it come this CitizenCon as last year was supposed to be the big reveal of a level or something but they gave up on showing it….

I can’t remember what my total is, embarrassing high, like around the $500 USD mark, most by miles I have ever put towards a game, that is spread out over a few years though and I have not given more for over a full year now.

I can’t see myself ever funding more, but not out of a hate of the development speed, I just have a few ships that should cover the main areas I want to get into and give me fun right out the door when it launches.

At the end of the day I have heaps of other stuff to play right now so I just check on SC videos each week and try to kind of keep up with the basics of whats going on, at least until 3.0 hits

Sorry bit of a long ramble haha

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Space Captain Zor

everything seems to be focused on 3.0 for the last six to eight months

Unfortunately it does seem that way since the PU is the more transparent of the two in terms of development. But what they have said all along is that most resources are dedicated to SQ42. According to them anything going to the PU is generally a byproduct of R&D for SQ42. Obviously not all, as they have to have a playground of things for people to do.

SQ42 is shrouded behind the veil because they want it to be a fresh surprise when the curtain is finally pulled–and frankly that’s pretty understandable. It has to be a grand slam at this point.

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Joe Blobers

Space Captain, this is exactly what CR said recently. they want to be SQ42 Chapter 1 as polished as possible to have a Woo! effect. He also said that when a vertical slide is provided to journalist, it will be of AAA quality. Not a quick capture of actions video sequences.

All work done on PU benefit to SQ42 and reciprocally. They focus first on ships that are available in Chapter 1 some of them not available in PU as being a pure military version.

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zeko_rena

Fair enough, I probably missed him saying that, sometimes I skip the talking bits in the weekly updates and just look at the shiny bits, a bad habit I know haha

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NovaScotiaCitizen

with 500$ you have done your part. I’m around that mark, slightly more but I prefer if new backers and ultimately, box sales, are taking over. Will continue to subscribe though to support the video content creation.

Zander
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Zander

Massively commenters who have zero stake (money) put into the project are doing the most talking. It’s as if they sincerely want a catastrophic ending to this project, not realising how much damage that would do. Forget Star Citizen, I’m talking crowdfunding and PC gaming in general. I knows it’s Monday in the middle of summer with no MMORPG game releases in sight but lighten up because when you are playing that rehashed, same old content and are just plain tired and bored of logging in, you will wonder what might have happened if the gaming envelope would have pushed and succeeded. You will wonder if it would have set a new precedence in PC gaming development and expansion to some thing new. You will wonder how the likes EA or Ubisoft would have had to respond to that.

My Star Citizen white knight days are over. I’m a realist. I don’t need to defend something because I have a significant stake in it as I have. I’m also not a some egotist, flouting detractor who NEEDS to watch the crowd funding, possibly the PC game end it’s pioneering ways so I can say I was right.

We all have a stake in this whether you pledged money into Star Citizen or not. Want to protect the consumer from getting ripped off? Fine, don’t pledge for crowdfunding. Watch others lose their own money so you can say ‘ I told you so’. Want development to stop trying new things and deliver the same rehashed, re-skinned shit we see every year? Because that’s what your assisting in all this. Got something constructive to add to the issue? Please do.

In my school of teaching, you stay out of another man’s pockets unless you yourself are doing something. Too often in our age of entitlement, we take on this guise that developers are non-people who must bend to the demands of the hive. It becomes frustrating for everyone involved and it becomes especially disgusting when it’s a pledge that is being questioned by those who probably never contribute in their daily lives.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zander – please read what I wrote above, no need to rehash.

My issue is I am not convinced of how groundbreaking the goals are for this game. Also, are we dismissing the efforts of others and putting too much pressure on SC to be the Messiah game? Is that realistic?

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Roger Melly

“questioned by those who probably never contribute in their daily lives”

Just wondering exactly what you mean by that ? Do you mean someone has to be a game developer to have an opinion on what is happening with this game ?

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Armsbend

Backers haphazardly threw (a)way too much money at a bad project – not knowing how much damage it would do. Do not blame us for your destructive powers on the industry. This bullshit is yall’s fault – no one elses.

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

I’m not seeing how one game is being destructive to an industry that is already self-destructive. Is it because it is crowd-funded? Because it has a very large budget? Because it is trying to bring a few new things to the table? Because its combining genres together into a seamless experience? Whether or not the game is good shouldn’t affect the industry. Look at the number of garbage title shoveled out each year. So again, how is this one game going to be destructive to the industry?

Or do you think that if it is successful that it will spawn a number of clones, since that is how the industry has operated from day one?

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”Backers haphazardly threw (a)way too much money at a bad project – not knowing how much damage it would do. Do not blame us for your destructive powers on the industry”

Sure. +600.000 or is it 700.000 (?), are total idiot. They randomly pick a crowdfunded project in a list… then they agree to scope change, then intensify pledges funds, probably because they think the team behind CR is unable to deliver… Those same 100’s thousands of backers have also no idea such project started with a 12 team size is going to take years… with delays that are called… game development.

And those backers have now “destructive powers on the industry” intention…

This is exactly the very opposite
Those 100’s thousands of backers do want to push the industry into another direction. The day you understand that, the day you will understand why pledges are keep coming in this project, that require manpower hence $.

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Rumm

The past decade of WoW clones pushed out by greedy publishers was super awesome, right?

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shear

What has WoW clones have to do with any of this?

Estranged
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Estranged

Rumm – I’ve had a lot of fun gaming this past decade, guess this player is a dullard. How is a game, suited for a niche audience – going to be the savior?

Zander
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Zander

Backers haphazardly threw (a)way too much money at a bad project – not knowing how much damage it would do.

You talk like it’s already over.

Do not blame us for your destructive powers on the industry. This bullshit is yall’s fault – no one elses.

There is no ‘us’ or ‘yall’ we ride this industry together. ‘Destructive’ is a strange word for ‘crowdfunding’. I’m not sure what context of blame you mean.

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Armsbend

I’m getting the sense that backers are seeing a growing skepticism from their ranks and instead of looking at themselves they are blaming the detractors now. Like what was a small hand full a few years ago is now a growing tide.

The newest scarecrow is “enjoy your wow clones”. This…comeback I guess you’d call it is new and collective. I’ve seen it no less than a dozen times in less than a week when it was never brought up before. It’s a blame. The detractors now want more wow clones because Roberts stole $160,000,000 from you people – and continues to steal.

It isn’t over you are right. But he needs a project manager. A really good one he is willing to take orders from. That would be money well spent imho. He has cash and enthusiasm – the team just needs focus.

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Joe Blobers

Quote armsbend:”because Roberts stole $160,000,000 from you people – and continues to steal.”

What you call “stealing” is calleed in all industries, budget spend to pay workers wages, which is the biggest costs for a company together with industry tools assets.

You can’t ask at the same time to deliver a Triple-A before what EA could deliver and say it is costing $…
I am not sure CIG employees (+428) believe they are stealing their salaries from backers…

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – takes a humble person to admit such.

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Armsbend

Roberts? See I don’t think so. He is a middle aged man so he has been a round the block a few times. He has had great successes and some failures. I’d bet he has had some great teams that helped him be successful and some real duds that didn’t help anyone get anywhere.

You line all of that up and in my very strong opinion – as a middle aged person myself with successes and failures – I think you know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Roberts is a great visionary and is very charismatic. Without it he couldn’t have raised this cash. He has and should further capitalize on that and let people who are really good at what they do – do it. In my opinion its a ball busting PM. They aren’t the fun guys in the office but they get it done.

And if I’m wrong about him and he hasn’t realized any of this yet – he is about to I think. Hard.

Estranged
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Estranged

Project managers must need lots of booze when they go home from work.

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A Dad Supreme

“Massively commenters who have zero stake (money) put into the project are doing the most talking. “
===
And laughing.

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John Bagnoli

Well crowd funded games have taken a bit of a beating lately. See Mighty No. 9

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Daniel Reasor

To be fair, even the sunken cost fallacy has its limits. There are a lot fewer people willing to admit that this vaporware game fooled them then there were in 2014, when the game was supposed to be released. By 2020, there will be one or two people still buying ships they’ll never fly and calling everyone with any sense “entitled,” but you won’t be able to find many who admit they were backers at all.

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Joe Blobers

quote Daniel Reasor:”There are a lot fewer people willing to admit that this vaporware game ”

Your assumption of vaporware is based on nothing, additioned to another assumption of few people able to think by themself…

Like it or not, doing Triple-A cost a lot of cash and current game status is absolutley in line with industry standard.

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shear

SC failure would do no damage to PC gaming at all.

Maybe to crowdfunding, but I doubt that either.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”SC failure would do ”

Can you share a date… 90 days top? :)

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Alex Willis

Yeah. They still made movies after Heaven’s Gate.

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MesaSage

tl;dr
Software is hard
Sorry
Send money or at least pics.

Dantos
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Dantos

At this point, all I really want is Sq42. I mean, I really only played Freelancer for the campaign anyway. Other than that, Ive written off the money I put down on this game. Maybe im just cynical after watching and waiting for Jumpgate Evolution just to see it canned.

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shear

Get a refund you can always buy it again later when it’s out.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”Get a refund you can always buy it again later when it’s out.”

Yes Dantos this is a great advise from Shear. Try to hurt this project, that will it give more chance to be successuf later on :)

That is a well known and common practice plus wise advice to try empty a car tank while driving, that help you reach your destination… oh man :)

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Byórðæįr

This is why none of the big publisher picked up this type of game, feature creep and mile stones that are guess points not I can hit that deadline to keep getting funding.

Yet that is why when they started showing they could actually build the smaller scaled down version I voted with my money to see what the safe bet could not build.

Compare what they thought they could build with a million dollars and then multiple that by one hundred fifty times as much content and quality. They currently have roughly half of what war hammer online had to work with and the guy in charge of that game said that he would have traded half the money for another two years to work on the game as the engine took most of the time to build. RSI is basically having to rewrite whole sections of code (note that turbine did the same thing for unreal engine 2.5 for lord of the rings online) to get options that the default engine is only a starting point on. If you want a first person shooter using crytek or unreal great you simply have to create the content, if you want an mmo you have to build a lot of the code, thankfully people are sharing code to make the games better via github but look at eve saying that to get walking around stations is two years of work to make it look good, they have space game that is more tactical space sim (and spreadsheet sim) that is viable game but what RSI is building is space flight sim and mmo combined. I’d rather be able to load up 3.0 now with all the toys they are still building but they could be working in the dark with no feed back from the players and we would have a much sooner complete game but it would not be as cool looking or have as many options. I am still believing as long as they get the game out the door well before they run out of money that in two years those of that backed the game are going to be playing squadron 42 and laughing at the nay sayers.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Lmao. They got no publisher because they never sought any. Why would they need a publisher with over 150 mil crowdfunded money?

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Mark Jacobs

Umm, I don’t usually comment in other devs threads, other than to say good luck, but WAR cost < 100M all in (including marketing). I can't give out the exact number due to my employment agreement, but as Mythic, we were spending less than 15M per year on it. Our income at the time was <25M (and this was publicly disclosed) so…

No knock at all at CSI/SC, but you cited me and WAR so I could just like to clarify things.

I think you are thinking more about SWTOR whose expenses were, according to published reports, that high but WAR, not a chance. I couldn't have spent 300M on WAR if I wanted to, we didn't have the warchest for it. :)

And, BTW, when I say <100M, I mean way, way less than 100M. I would say more but EA's numbers were EA's number and I can't comment on that other than to say that if I had gone to them and asked to spend almost $300M over the course of 2 years (2006-2008), EA would have drug-tested me, sent me to a shrink, and then laughed, really loudly.

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Utakata

You are soooo much more refreshing that that other developer who shows up here to rant. Feel free to make your presence more known on these articles…if you can. /bows :)

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Mark Jacobs

Hehe, thanks. Yeah, I’m not much for ranting and even my snarkiness has decreased as well over time. Star Citizen is Chris Roberts’ game and, like most other developers, I/we are following it with a keen interest. I wish Chris the best, even though I don’t think we have ever met.

I truly hope the backers of this game get a great game in exchange for their patience and incredible backing that they have given Chris. I also hope that he is thankful for it, as we are with our game, because such incredible largess should always be reciprocated by the developer.

Thanks for the kind words and request to see me more, it is appreciated.

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Byórðæįr

Clearly you would know better than most people what you spent on the game I was thinking of an interview towards the end of war hammer when you were having to shut down the game, and I was thinking that you said more time and money, clearly I did not remember the amount correctly I was thinking half of something. It was not SWTOR, as Bioware used the hero engine on that game and when EA bought Bioware they cut assets and developer money. The high resolution assets worked in the beta that did not get added for two years because the difference between the high end view and the min specs EA signed off on made the low end game unappealing compared to if you had discrete graphics. When I was Disney as share holder hire Disney had bought Marvel and Lucas Arts which include Industrial Light and Magic and things got really convoluted as to who owned what.

Either way the point is still the same the scope they have now is more than any publisher would have signed off on and to get that scope well know developers had to reach out the players who are now doing what most publishers do. They ask where is the progress or they ask where is the game. They way I look at it is that for the money what RSI is trying to create is likely the worth the money but it we expect it today we have to use last year’s code and last month’s assets. If we want what they are reaching for updates on where they are at is really the best to expect and when the tech is working the backers can play with it so that when they are at the stage of one system they people throwing the money at them can comment our suggests my not work in the context of the game or they may be too hard to actually get to work but they still have a wall of crazy that is builtin board on spectrum on top of internal white boards.

So sorry Mark for the misquote I really ought to find what that quote said but your post makes the point, a publisher would not sign off on the money because they only want a safe bet in a short term around while RSI is trying something that requires more lead time. I can load up flight sim and fight in a small walled off area much like zones used to be in many games or I can wait for the team to actually finish the game or at least more of it. If you want a good laugh most of the people making the decisions are people who made games years ago or guys that were working on the quality assurance team of Modern Warefare Three and we would see stuff that needed to be fixed and as we got closer to the dead lines of when the publisher Activision blizzard who were were working for the bugs that were important were less important unless they caused the game to crash. We had blockers up to a point then only show stoppers and actual game crashes only mattered. I understood that the marketing would only hold people attention so long and that pre orders had to target a release date when their was not something to steal the thunder of the release and the two of the bugs that caused the date to be moved back were lost in the shuffled earlier on because we had a leads that were using two jira data bases early on and only submitting bugs that they thought were important to the jira data base that three studios working on the game could see. There was a weird irq poling issue with the audio that got ignored for four months because it was blamed on the pc hardware. After the developers had to deal with that bug that caught them off guard, they got access to data base with all the qa bugs submitted and wasted who knows how many late development hours on bugs that could have been fixed easier early on. So with that experience I can understand why the development is different than the normal process of bringing on a lot of testers six months before the project has to launch. So I have a feeling that is likely driving some of the feature bloat so the possible things get fixed while they have the development money and the ability to over haul systems and code base.

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Mark Jacobs

Ah, you might be confusing me with the guys who took over after I left EA. I left in 2009, WAR wasn’t shut down till a number of years later. I think you probably mean either Paul Barnett or Eugene Evans one of whom was GM of Mythic when WAR was shut down in 2013. :)

As to your apology, not needed at all, but I thank you for that anyway!

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Rottenrotny

I’m only here to eat popcorn and laugh at the white knights and apologists.

-=Edit=- I’m disappointed that there isn’t more foaming at the mouth in these comments.

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A Dad Supreme

“I’m disappointed that there isn’t more foaming at the mouth in these comments.”
==============
“The 7 Stages of Grief”

see: Stage 7

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Rottenrotny

I’m not sure how I’m going to make it through the rest of today. ;)

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Michael18

Just let them work in peace, people. SC is easily one of the most ambitious and challenging dev projects in the history of video games (huge parts are pure research). Also, no one really questions their good will and determination. atm, they’re doing important work on core systems and infrastructure and that needs time and several iterations. It’ll come along nicely.

The one huge open question is whether it will be “fun” in the end. Whether everything will come together and work nicely and just click and provide long term motivation. But this is that part of game development that cannot be planned ahead or engineered, that’s the magic of it all. For that, we just have to wait and see and wish CR & team good luck.

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shear

What parts are research?

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Michael18

procedural planets (done before, e.g. infinity engine [1], but not in an actual game, not at that level of detail, …)
adjusting/modifying a proc gen landscape manually
embedding traditional assets within the proc gen planets
seamless transitions
making use of a seamlessly modeled solar system in story telling
dealing with vastly different scale

These are just a few things from the top of my head, without being a games dev or having followed SC very closely.

[1] youtube.com/watch?v=yrcEUO7TC28

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shear

NMS, ED and the upcoming BGAE2 have procedurally generated planets. That’s not new anymore.

“adjusting/modifying a proc gen landscape manually” You mean map editing? That has been around for a while.

“embedding traditional assets within the proc gen planets” ED is doing that.

“making use of a seamlessly modeled solar system in story telling” How is that research?

“seamless transitions” I am pretty sure NMS is doing that and even if not the transition is so smooth I don’t see it, I don’t see how that will make your gameplay better.

Five years ago this would have been groundbreaking, it’s all been done before now.

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Lethality

Stop trying so hard. There is plenty of tech that has never been done before in a triple-A massively multiplayer online game at the level of fidelity and interactivity being presented with Star Citizen.

NONE of it has yet to be done.

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Michael18

@shear
from BGAE2 we have only seen a tech demo. afaik, no one knows how much of a game they actually have at this point.
If seamless proc gen planets is so easy and well-established, why does ED have the limitation of not supporting any cele bodies with atmosphere? Also multi-player is very limited in ED, last time I checked.
NMS has some of these things on paper (seamlessness) but was very simplistic in many ways (space combat, minimal height when flying, NO multi player) and had no mix of proc gen and hand-crafted content.

I have nothing against these games (except maybe NMS’s marketing), but I think SC deserves credit for aiming to do many things on a new level.

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shear

“from BGAE2 we have only seen a tech demo. afaik, no one knows how much of a game they actually have at this point.”

You mean like SC? There are no planets in 3.0, just moons. And that tech demo was working already, which SC can’t claim they have nailed down yet.

David Braben said they could do planets with the atmosphere but his concern was that he wanted to do them right with content on them, not like they did the moons which were friggin empty. SC won’t have much multiplayer either, that has little to do with the game and more to do with the size of it. Space is massive.
NMS is simplistic, but that’s what they were going for, an arcade space game.

SC is trying to do things more in depth but they still haven’t achieved it and they don’t deserve credit for trying. You don’t get points for attempting.

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Joe Blobers

quote Shear:”SC is trying to do things more in depth but they still haven’t achieved it and they don’t deserve credit for trying.”

You forget to mention you are not anti-SC in this psot and the previous one in which you suggest to get a refund? :)

CIG is not trying, they already released 3 key modules and pushing it even further in few weeks with 3.0.
And if making seamless transition between space to planet/moon do not entitle them to receive credit for Remember, an “expert” said just few months ago that we were decades away of it :)

“You forget to mention you are not anti-SC in this psot and the previous one in which you suggest to get a refund? :)”

What has this to do with anything?

They haven’t released anything that hasn’t been done before. Fact.

NMS has done seamless transitions… They aren’t doing anything that hasn’t been done.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”NMS has done seamless transitions… They aren’t doing anything that hasn’t been done.”

Did I said something else? They just did it better or differently.

And this is exactly why CIG receive such support. People are tired of things already done by everybody else and that keep coming, every year;
CIG change the rule. Pushing the limit in many thing that have been done since so mutch time without any goal but make quick profit.

Do not search further : 155M$ and growing. Fact.

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shear

Again man you missed the point, all I said they aren’t doing anything new anymore, five years ago, sure it would have been considered groundbreaking, but it isn’t now.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”five years ago, sure it would have been considered groundbreaking”

I got your point. Show me in 2017 something groudbreaking equivalent to 3.0… not talking about PG but how CIG use it.

Of course as it is not in ours hands yet it is difficult to get an indivual opinion … but feel free to come back in a month or so to share you experience.

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shear

Byond good and evil 2.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”Byond good and evil 2.”

My question was pretty precise: “Show me in 2017 something groudbreaking equivalent to 3.0”

You provide a title name, thanks.

So let’s have a look at Beyond good and evil 2:
– Publishers Ubisoft
– Project decision to develop it: May 2008
– Freezed in May 2010 (so 2 years of development)
– Announce of Nov. 2011: Game never stopped to be in development…
– Announce of May 2012: Game is in active development phase
– Announce of July 2013: Game will be available on Next Gen consoles
– Announce in 2014: They keep working on it
– Announce of June 2015: No news… it may be freezed…
– Announce of Oct. 2016: Phase of pre-production and show few 3D model
– Announce of E3 2017: A trailer… no date of release

So 9 years of development from Ubisoft, a multi-Billion dollars company with thousands devs and uptodate tools… still no date in 2017.
But CR become almost the new Charles Manson because there is a “delay” of few weeks compared to original Schedule report post since months, detailling every single piece of internal up and down.

It is not a surprise if Publishers stick to their model with few individual being such vocal and want their precious here and now…

I know a few that would have take the 155M$, delivered a generic gameplay and run away with 100M$ in pocket: shooting “working as designed”
We got all that crap during past 10 years because we asked for it. We deserved it…. until The Lamp and +700.000 backers who decided to say: STOP no more publishers crap model.

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Michael18

And that tech demo was working already, which SC can’t claim they have nailed down yet.

to say BGAE2 has shown more than SC, so far, must be a joke, right?

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shear

Oh no, I wouldn’t say that at all, I’m just making a point that SC isn’t doing anything new.

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Michael18

… they don’t deserve credit for trying. You don’t get points for attempting.

I can’t agree with that.

I’ve been criticizing MMO and other devs for years for being too careful, not innovative enough, not bold enough.

If there is now a project that is aiming high (not saying SC is the only one), I think this is something commendable in itself, even if the risk of failure might be higher than with your run-off-the-mill AAA franchise re-iteration.

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shear

I think the problem with this is that people tend to buy rehashes regardless. Look at CoD games, for example, people complaining that they are all the same yet they still buy the new one every year. There is no reason for devs to innovate people give them money regardless.

And in life you don’t get points for attempting, you have to know that.

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shear

I just pointed out all the games that HAVE done it.

Maybe not as polished as SC is trying to do, but that means little when it comes to “groundbreaking”
GTA5 was polished as hell but it didn’t do ANYTHING that hasn’t been done before.

Tell me what is NEW in SC. I am not trying hard I want somebody to tell me what is this NEW tech they are doing.

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Lethality

It’s not a matter of “polish” it’s literally a technical hurdle that had to be overcome to achieve the fidelity SC is going for.

We’ve had fractals for years as a precursor to procedural generation. ED has procedural worlds. But without the concern for massively multiplayer interaction via server meshes that SC is going for not to mention systems like weather, different biomes, and life.

The 64-bit precision needed, etc… List goes on.

Different software has different implementation needs, so just because someone “did something” doesn’t mean someone else can go to HotScripts.com and buy it to use :) It’s all VERY custom work for every project.

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shear

What does custom and new have to do with one another? It has been done before, that’s my point. They shouldn’t be getting any points for doing it again and get to call it “new tech” it’s not new.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”It has been done before, that’s my point”

Correct PG have been done before like almost everything have been said or written already…
That does not stop new authors every year to use those same words used million times in the past to write Novels or Thesis… that others millions of people are buying in order to educate, entertain themself or help grow something up that will be different of what they did, even just a little bit.

CIG never said PG was a new tech.

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shear

Not talking about PG at all, PG has been around for decades, original Elite used it back in 80s I think.

My point is that there is nothing in SC that is new or original in any way anymore, the only thing they have is that they are doing it much more in depth, but that’s not the same as new.

“CIG never said PG was a new tech.”
I never said CiG claimed PG was new tech.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:” they are doing it much more in depth, but that’s not the same as new.”

That is exactly the base of this crowdfunded project success. Do not have the same regurgitated crap every year. And based from where they start end of Nov. 2012 and now, there are doing good.

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shear

They are doing terribly, five years down the line and they have very, very little to show for it.

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Space Captain Zor

By all means please tell us where exactly they should be at by now per your inscrutable standards of iterative game development? What SHOULD they be doing in order for you to be happy?

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Darkwalker75 .

How much did SWTOR and ESO have to show for after 5 years of development?

Those games took 6 and 8 years to develop respectively, and were of a much smaller scope and scale, not to mention they used a tried and tested formula(wow style fantasy MMO) that required no R&D.

Just because we don’t see the work they have done does not mean they are not working hard and have little to show for.

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Roger Melly

It might be better to compare it to a hugely successful game rather than two games that have only had mediocre success .

World of Warcraft was released after 5 years of development and had 3 million people playing it by that point .

I imagine you will be using the same argument to defend Star Citizen after 8 years if there is no release .

It does feed into Derek Smart’s argument that the scale of the game and the ambition behind it exceeds the technological ability to actually release it in a state anything close to what has been promised .

I know I will probably get a tirade of about Smart but maybe at the end of the day as much as you don’t like it or him he will be proven right .

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styopa

“As gamers, we are conditioned to consider all dates as static points in time that we can wrap our heads around and plan for in advance,”

How many times does one get to say this with a straight face?
Nobody actually believes that, so asserting it as fact grows a little threadbare.

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A Dad Supreme

Star Citzen track record for meeting programming deadlines and stated goals regarding game production? under twenty percent.

Star Citizen track record for meeting deadlines for pre-ship and vehicle sale notifications on time? Over ninety percent!

See? It’s not all bad news. They are able to meet some stated projections without any difficulty.

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Roger Melly

I hope people in these forums who have invested in the game in these forums have not invested in anything more than the most basic package because god knows how this is all going to turn out .

As I said before I think sometime in the 2020’s a movie will be made about the making of this game . Wonder who they will get to play Chris Roberts and Derek Smart .

Given the whole company is “The entire company is working feverishly to get you 3.0” lets hope we don’t see any more ships , buggies or what not on sale or any more of those lovely videos for Around the Verse coming out until they do .

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Space Captain Zor

I agree with an important part of your comment. While we shouldn’t expect artists and asset builders to cease building assets and making art and try to work on things that they aren’t qualified to work on it WOULD be smart of them from a PR perspective to cease further marketing until they get their shit together and release 3.0. They can’t convince anyone (the mob) that all hands are on deck if they continue to have new ship sales in the meantime, even if it’s holistically true.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”lets hope we don’t see any more ships , buggies or what not on sale ”

Sure because +428 workers live of breathing fresh air and pay their bill with charity coupon… :)

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Roger Melly

Maybe you misunderstood what I meant .

No one expects them to pay their bills on charity coupons but there is 150 million sitting there that people have invested into this project so perhaps finishing finishing a dam alpha patch which has been delayed several times should be a priority before messing about with peripherals until they do .

Anyone who thinks that is an unreasonable expectation has got to be living in cloud cuckoo land .

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Darkwalker75 .

No the 150 million are not sitting there as you say, the 150 million is the total amount they raised in crowd funding since 2012.
But as any business they have expenditures and as such have used a portion of that money.
How much of that has been spent and their current financial status only CR/CIG knows, anything anyone else claims to know are pure speculation.

As for delays, how many games can you name that did not have delays at any point of their development?

Just because we haven’t seen it does not mean it has not happened, and delays like this are in fact completely normal
But since we have no other game to compare to there is no way anyone here can say with certainty one way or another how good or bad CIG are doing.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger melly:”finishing a dam alpha patch which has been delayed several times”
That is exactly what they are doing with 3.0. Again take in your equation all factors: time vs team growth, scope change, funds raising like crazy, … stop compairing 5 years of EA with 4 Billion$ revenue, thousands devs, uptodate tools, known budget of 200M$ at day one with this crowdfunded project.

Yes they got 155M$ but they are not sitting on it.

The damned Alpha is coming under what is called game development.

Chill down. Nothing is going to collapse… :)

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Roger Melly

I don’t think there is any chance of collapse as yet and maybe not for another year or two but as Space Captain Zor points out ceasing to offer these peripherals until they sort out 3.0 would be wise in terms of public relations which is the point I trying to make .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”Space Captain Zor gets my point ”

And he got mine without need to call anyone cheerleaders… :)

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Daniel Reasor

There comes a point where the rationales for further delays just start to sound like “I haven’t picked a non-extradition country to retire to with all of my hornswoggled backers’ money yet.”

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shear

I just think that CR doesn’t even know what’s happening in his studios. He tells people what to do and then leaves it up to them whiles he drives off in his sports car to the nearest bank to get some more money out to buy another sports car. :DDD

At least it isn’t my money he’s buying them with.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

based on the kotaky articles i think last year he actually has a severe issue with not respecting managers and going over their heads to micromanage lower level workers. i think his brother erin keeps it in check more than years before erin came on board but i doubt it’s fully effective.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:Deekay_plus:”severe issue with not respecting managers”

Yes I missed as well those “revelation” from anon source and guys leaving resume on GlassDoor…. The one I prefer was this one:
“Mediocre Place to Work”

True feedback from real CIG employee guaranteed!

I’ve also had some troubles with my direct supervisor who would respond to my e-mails without reading them. Other instances have been a little bizarre. At one meeting I was asked to carry Chris Roberts on my back. I happily obliged but generally resent being treated similar to a pack mule. Overall though, nothing too bad on this front.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you know chris roberts himself admitted adn acknowledged those were former employees?

nevermind what you quoted is sourced from teh kotaku.co.uk articles and not the escapist article?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”you know chris roberts himself admitted adn acknowledged those were former employees?”

Source? Another Glassdoor link or may be TheEscapist? :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

literally the official star citizen website. ffs jesus christ.

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Space Captain Zor

lol was that in the rambling “legal” letter from CR’s lawyer or the one from CR before that? I remember that, didn’t know it got taken down.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

It was the one where he threatened to sue them if they didnt run a retraction. In the end both the article and the blog post got removed at some point this past year

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”literally the official star citizen website. ffs jesus christ.”

So I guess it is easy for anyone to find it… oops, no in fact.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it got deleted off the site a couple months ago along with the escapist article it was responding to.

no one is pretending it didn’t happen tho. except mr jonestown over here you.

i didnt think it was possible but this is a new level of insanity from you.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”it got deleted off the site a couple months ago along with the escapist article it was responding to.”

Thanks. So no source. The day you find a screen capture feel free to share it.

Problem Deekay is you are saying a lot of things that are opinion with a lot to desire regarding facts and factors. Of course you can provide your opinion but undestand it does not help to make very “valuable” for average readers that try to get a picture of who say what and why?…

May be it sounds insane to you but it is facts…

So when you share an information like: “you know chris roberts himself admitted… something” and I ask from where it is coming for… Your answer is: ‘this is deleted”.

Avoid to go to a court with such argumentation, really, they will beat badly, while I only ask for a source when available.

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shear

How can anyone buy this BS, They showed the whole seamless thing last year and now they are saying that it’s a new thing.

What extra things have they added to this 3.0 that were planned originally?

How could they possibly think that this wasn’t going to be a big job in optimization?

And what does seamless landing add to the gameplay? If it’s hidden well that there is a loading screen I just don’t see what’s the difference.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”And what does seamless landing add to the gameplay? If it’s hidden well that there is a loading screen I just don’t see what’s the difference.”

You ask what they add and how it is hard… You answered yourself to the question. Pushing the limit to deliver new experience not yet done at this level of quality.

If you do not like how CR handle game development, IE pushing the limit as he always did (hence the +155M$) why did you join this crowfunded project?

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shear

I haven’t spent any money on SC, I’ll get the game if it ever comes out, but I am not giving them money based on “promises” that just sounds naive to me.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”I haven’t spent any money on SC, I’ll get the game if it ever comes out, but I am not giving them money based on “promises” that just sounds naive to me.”

Cool. So everyhting is fine. You may join later on if any patch update include something that please you, may be join at release or may be never. Sounds reasonnable.

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shear

Yeah but in the mean time, I can still underline the BS they are selling to people. This is just too much fun.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”I can still underline the BS they are selling ”

Best Ship sales records reached 60K just in one single day :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

chris watched a video of NMS a few years ago0 and did the mike kern school of lead dev thing apparently.

which actually explains alot about the feature creep that this game has piled on over the years.

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Greaterdivinity

what 3.0 meant a year ago is a shadow of what 3.0 means today.

See, this is an issue. If their milestones, because these releases are essentially milestones, are ballooning out of control like this and causing delays, why should we trust them at all when it comes to their ability to manage the project? That’s ignoring all the stuff that folks have reported was cut from the initial 3.0 content last year, that’s still not coming in 3.0 this year.

Deliver the milestone as planned, then work on expanding the scope. If the fundamental tech beneath it is the issue, then the scope doesn’t matter and you would have missed the milestone anyways.

Oh well, back to /popcorning while I watch these events unfold.

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Oleg Chebeneev

I dont really trust their announced dates expecting them being delayed like always. What I trust is the quality of their work and that eventually everything they announced will be released. I also think they spent huge amount of time developing tech that in future will help them make everything faster. So while they are slow now, they will release content faster eventually

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primal

its the fundamental tech causing the issue. its taking alot longer than planned. its not like there delaying it for a laugh,

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Greaterdivinity

If that’s the case, than the “oh, but the scope and content is so big now!” excuse is complete BS. If they can’t get the tech working, then there are bigger issues at play here than “we were overly ambitious with our outlined content”.

That’s actually the worse of the two options : /

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Joe Blobers

Quote Greaterdivinity:” If they can’t get the tech working, then there are bigger issues”
They can… and this ic oming right in the 3 delivered modules and 3.0 in few weeks.
The issue is that you keep pretending that a triple-A at this level of “fidelity” can be done in 2 years starting with a team of 12 and 6M$. As long as you do not integrate those factors you will stay in your loop of denying reality of game development or even any type of project.

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Greaterdivinity

They can…after delaying it a year from when they initially planned to get it out, and then blaming it on “expanded scope” despite the scope really not being expanded. The issue is the tech itself was announced way, way before it was ready.

That’s. Not. A. Good. Thing. It’s one thing if they get overly ambitious on content – that’s not good but that’s also not terrible. It’s another if the fundamental tech under the hood is causing delays of upwards of a year, and then they try to obfuscate the issue to cover up the fact that there was literally never a chance in hell they were anywhere close to their initial release date.

The issue is that you keep pretending that a triple-A at this level of “fidelity” can be done in 2 years starting with a team of 12 and 6M$.

Never have, and never will. That seems like a silly strawman to bolster your argument that doesn’t actually address any of my criticisms.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Greaterdivinity:”your argument that doesn’t actually address any of my criticisms”

Sorry my bad. Probably due the phenomenon of persistence of vision when you spammed in others articles the same sentence: “Crowdfunding Simulator 2017 can’t stop, won’t stop”…
I did not make a straight link with elaborated criticisms… but now I am with you :)

When you say “they try to obfuscate the issue” it is your reading. The schedule report provided for 2.6 then 3.0 have been clear and extremely rich in terms of described features.
Have a look at the CIG schedule report section . This is 41 screen pages of features in absolutely all area, many of them are visible (like seamless landing) but also many others not visible, that were not tangible in past video.

I could agree somehow with you if CIG was an established company end of Nov. 2012 with already +400 employees, full tech pipelines, uptodate engine and budget set at 155M$ day one…. but project of that type are extremely complex, especially when you look at pushing to the limit what was done already by others (like PG). Semaless transition from spacec to planet was said to be impossible a few months ago… by you know who…

You absolutely need to differenciate yourself from the crowd of past games.

It is like a job interview. You have to be the best for many reasons, this is mandatory, There is no second chance… You will take any possible actions to ensure you achieve your goal. This is not deliberate in the way to be evil on purposes but can be seen as such.

Take all factors in hands. CIG did not started like EA. 3.0 is now right there at the corner. A journalist Christopher Livingston played with it… without even crashing!

This is coming and those 155M$ are not there to make employees, including Directors, rich…. the real cash (profit) is coming after release, not during development.
The interests foreveryone, CR first, is to release a “perfect” game as fast as possible.

Estranged
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Estranged

Greater – true. Also, the whole spill about converting a solo game engine into multiplayer seems so silly today. Isn’t that just crazy talk? Personally, I think they have been in engine hell for years.

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Greaterdivinity

I mean, it’s not like CryEngine can’t support multiplayer games – Crytek uses some form of it for Warface (yes, that game with the silly name still exists!).

Though that comes with other questions – If CryEngine was going to present significant technical challenges for the online portions of the game, why not investigate/invest in other engines? Why not build one in-house (engine creation has gotten progressively cheaper, hence why everyone is building their own) specifically tailored for the needs of SC? Wasn’t the move to Lumberyard earlier this year supposed to handle a lot of the online components and backend stuff to make development happen faster

Every time you come up with a response for something with this game, it seems to open another set of questions. At least for me, as someone who has only casually followed the game. So I could be missing out on huge chunks of context behind this stuff that has already answered many of my questions.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Greaterdivinity:” If CryEngine was going to present significant technical challenges for the online portions of the game, why not investigate/invest in other engines? ”

Why did they do not use another engine?

“I was judging both and playing with both of them and ultimately decided on CryEngine because Unreal 4 back then was very early. It had all sorts of power and flexibility, and it’s used a lot – but at that point, they were still refactoring even fundamental systems. It still had time to mature and the CryEngine was just a bit more mature.”

What about Lumberyard?:

We made this choice as Amazon’s and our focus is aligned in building massively online games that utilize the power of cloud computing to deliver a richer online experience

The fact to merge forks allow will exactly help to perform what you describe as “to handle a lot of the online components and backend stuff to make development happen faster”… Faster does not mean instantaneous but.. faster than doing otherwise.

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Brother Maynard

Though that comes with other questions – If CryEngine was going to present significant technical challenges for the online portions of the game, why not investigate/invest in other engines? Why not build one in-house (engine creation has gotten progressively cheaper, hence why everyone is building their own) specifically tailored for the needs of SC?

It’s far from as easy as this part of your post seems to imply, especially the part on in-house engine.

Take a look at a few archived posts here:
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6866627/#Comment_6866627
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6646568/#Comment_6646568
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/6646573/#Comment_6646573

CIG chose CryEngine and for better or worse, they will stick to it (or its Lumberyard incarnation). They’re not going to change it now.

Custom engines make sense for large studios with several games being developed in parallel, where the engine can be re-used and customised for each game and which can afford to keep a dedicated team just to work on the engine, its features, updates and tools. Single-game studios are never going to do that.

Estranged
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Estranged

Greater – yeah, I don’t understand why cash rich projects resist custom engines. Remember: Lumberyard was in the works for a year, unannounced.

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Armsbend

Absolute truth.

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Armsman

Yep – even I have to agree. They get to a ‘milestone’ that’s probably ready; and suddenly CR goes – ‘”Hey maybe we can now add this to it…that worn’t take too long…”, etc. Like Greater Divinity said, it would be nice if when they planned a Milestone, they just delivered it, and add stuff to later Milestones if feasible.

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shear

100% agreed, that’s exactly what most devs would do, “here is a game, I know it’s bare bones but you can play around while we add more bit by bit”

They are covering the fact that they had nothing real last year other than a stitched together demo with ” we are adding more than we originally planned”.
What is this more? What are they adding that wasn’t planned last year?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they’ve got to have some of the worst project management in software development of any kind.

there’s just no other way to explain it lol

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shear

I am still waiting for somebody to school me on what’s new in 3.0 that wasn’t planned last year.

On top of it all, they aren’t even doing anything special anymore in any way that hasn’t been done before, except maybe with more fidelity, but that’s just extra animations and better graphics which aren’t all that.

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Lethality

– surface derelicts
– surface outposts
– Cyclone, Nox
– Truck stop station (though, not likely 3.0)

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Dan

At this point the general speculation and consensus is that no one gives a rats ass about new ships or vehicles, other than whales or old school pokemon catchers with large disposable incomes. I want to see a networking overhaul and something tangible that shows us a somewhat fleshed out PU; You know – standard game development milestones, not more t-shirts and ships.

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shear

But that doesn’t make money. They are literally selling pictures though :D

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”But that doesn’t make money. They are literally selling pictures though :D”

And that is perfect as it is the model of crowdfunded project: Getting funds to finish a project based on the facts backers are pledging for it… In case of SC, backers are also helping to test/provide feedback which reduce Q&A phase (+1000 Evocati to start with)

Arena Commander and PU is full of jpges moving in 3D that is called a game in Alpha.
Try to print a jpge and run in an open space while shooting “Pew-Pew” sounds… At least behind our monitor, mouse and keyboard, we can do it at our leisure.

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shear

They showed the outposts last year.
Derelict wouldn’t be all that much work, not years worth of work.
The cyclone isn’t coming in 3.0, Nox is just a bike it’s relatively small it wouldn’t take that long to model it, let’s be fair here.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

technically they showed derelicts last year too

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Joe Blobers

Quote Dekay_Plus:”technically they showed derelicts last year too”

So 3.0 being released in a few weeks not years or never… the Scam get even stronger? :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

wtf are you on about? just stop.

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Lethality

We’re talking about a de-facto list of what was not proposed to be in 3.0 but now is. That is that list.

And you can’t make a call like “not that much work”, btw :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they already had the bulk of the work done for those vehicles adn the rest was demoed last year.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

like i say below maybe could squeak in scavenging derelicts as new this year but not really cuz they demoed that sort of last fall.

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Melissa McDonald

still waiting for a reason to reinstall the game

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Space Captain Zor

Still waiting on a character creator, myself.

Zander
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Zander

Delta Patcher or bust.

oldandgrumpy
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oldandgrumpy

That’s what I am waiting on as well. Gave up on the 20-30GB downloads a year ago.

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Alex Willis

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Schlag Sweetleaf

Full Point

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Estranged
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Estranged

Alex – The “Soulcrusher” nick name is what pushed me to post the No Country quote. It is like putting Anton in charge of PR.

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Fervor Bliss

How many years in a row can you “work feverously”?

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”How many years in a row can you “work feverously”?”…

Many years as long you keep hiring staff:

– Employees count:
Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter: Chris Roberts and around 10 people   
2013:  48       (Austin: 34 –  LA: 14)
2014: 161      (Austin: 55 –  LA: 38 –  Manchester: 68)
2015: 258      (Austin: 57 –  LA: 41 –  Manchester: 132 – Frankfurt: 28)
2016: 363      (Austin: 54 –  LA: 64 –  Manchester: 191 – Frankfurt: 54)
2017: 428 (April)  

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Roger Melly

Well the Japanese have a word for it Karoshi it means to work yourself to death . So I guess there is a finite point .

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

is it crunch time when crunch time is all the time? XD

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Utakata

Forever…if it’s required. >.>

Estranged
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Estranged

Wendell: [Viewing the desert crime scene] It’s a mess, ain’t it, Sheriff?

Ed Tom Bell: If it ain’t, it’ll do till the mess gets here.

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Armsbend

Such a damn good movie.

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Alex Willis

My favourite of their films. And most of their films are amazing.

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Armsbend

Whoever casted it did about as good as you could ever hope to do. Okay enough about this movie! (I may have to watch it again this week now)

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Space Captain Zor

I have yet to watch it but now I’m suddenly feeling motivated :P

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – should watch it once every quarter to remind ourselves.

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Paragon Lost

lol, I was just considering heading downstairs and watching it again due to Estranged posting the meme!

Estranged
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Estranged

Paragon – whom is the Anton in your life? I feel like Bell.

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Paragon Lost

lol! Life “is” my Anton. heh.

Estranged
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Estranged

Paragon – to quote Anton: “Well done.”

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – is amazing how closely the book resembles the movie. The story is dead on – things just become more perverse and we have little control over the situation.

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Armsbend

I read the book – I think the Cohen brothers almost used it as a script. There was hardly any deviation at all. McCarthy is my favorite modern novelist by far. He possesses so much talent.

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – yeah, he is our Faulkner/Twain.

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Armsbend

I really most liken him to Hemmingway. Simple, everyman writing with much deeper themes than on the surface.

Estranged
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Estranged

Arms – I can see your opinion.

His writing style is so fresh. No happy endings. English Lit teacher nightmare. Drops you into a story and pulls you out harshly. Intro, body and conclusion? Laughable.

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Armsbend

The Road didnt have a happy ending – but you like to think everything worked out okay in the end.

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – true. I assume all went well for the kid and the survivors.

Damn, the book and movie exhausted me emotionally. Fetal position necessary.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

I would like to take them at their word but so much of what they say turns out to be false, gets walked back on or is just plain old ambiguous fluff.

Very tempted to seek a refund right about now.

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PhoenixDfire

I’m not going to ask for a refund. It’s that long ago now that I’ve kind of given up on getting any kind of game and E:D is still scratching the space sim itch (even though I backed SC first) even after all this time.

I feel sorry for the dev team, a little, it feels with all the scope change and expectation whatever they produce will not match up with people’s expectations (NMS anyone?)

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Roger Melly

I very much doubt you would get one somehow .

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

apparently they are being less shitty to refund seekers now and all you have to do is use the magic words “charge back” and they will comply.

they’ve already had enough serious legal and financial organization threats on this topic they are walking on egg shells

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shear

Anybody who wants a refund would get one. Just tell them you expected the 3.0 to be out already and you lost faith in the project, and they’ll give it back. They have to.

I wouldn’t wait though because they will run out of money eventually they are refunding your pledge using somebody else’s pledge.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”I wouldn’t wait though because they will run out of money eventually they are refunding your pledge using somebody else’s pledge.”

Oh yea thanks man. the famous Pyramid Sheme also known as Ponsi Scheme…we have been told… Together with CR buying resort in Pacific Island (if not the island itself). with backers money.. :)

I still enjoy your last 24 hours repeated statements saying: “I think it’s important to note, that I do not, infact, hate SC” . this is refreshing to see you spend so much energy to prove it at almost each posts :)

Well it does not really matter. As I told to the Clown end of 2016: you have a few quarter to keep doing your daily job.

Now I can tell you. 3.0 is, and soon was, the last quarter indeed. The door is closed. People and backers have eyes and hands to sort out obfuscation and reality.

Finance are strong and are going to bump from now to end of 2018 during all patch release.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

for a while it was like moving a mountain to get refunds. one guy contacted the LA district attorney to talk to them before they refunded him.

around that point they were stalking people on social media to use their social media posts against them somehow when requesting refunds as well.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”around that point they were stalking people on social media to use their social media posts against them somehow when requesting refunds as well.”

Stop throwing misleading information. When we read you it is like CIG do have an Inquisition Force to scare people or harass them… This is pure lie and disinformation.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

> This is pure lie and disinformation.

no that’s what you do. so stop.

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”it’s literally bat shit insane and completely delusional”
If you come into a public forum section and throw serious accusation to someone (CIG or anyone else) better have some source to document the level of seriousness you describe. If you don’t it is pure libel.

Either you can backup what you say or be ready to get “challenged”

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shear

Yeah, I’ve read that. It really didn’t paint them in good light.

They actually have to give a refund no matter how hard they are trying not to. There is no game and the progress is painfully slow. That’s the argument I’d use.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

like i said all you gotta do is threaten a charge back and the rest is smooth now. they even do partial refunds apparently. guy in irc refunded everything but his base package just last week.

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Roger Melly

That is good news indeed I know some people have invested thousands into the game . Hopefully if they want out now they can recuperate their money if they so desire .

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agemyth 😩

Seems like feature/scope creep or they had no idea what they were promising with many of those stretch goals.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

considering how heavily the 3.0 we will get is heavily cut back from what we were being sold a year ago, i don’t think it’s the feature creep. it’;s really just plain poor project management.

which ofc the feature creep plays into that but really they do seem to have severe managerial issues at this company.

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Roger Melly

So when you say poor project management how much of that do you attribute to Chris Roberts ?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i suggest reading the kotaku.co.uk articles examining the project and make up your own mind there.

long read mind you but very worth it.

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Roger Melly

Will take a look

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agemyth 😩

comment image

Well, the above stretch goal is one example of a feature they completely underestimated in terms of how long it will take to implement on a level Chris Roberts would find satisfying. A large chunk of that problem, I am assuming, comes from having to build the tech to make it work with all the other systems at play.

The original promise was just R&D for what sounds like post-release content, but now it sounds like they want every solid planet/moon/planetoid they implement to be a mix of some hand crafted points of interest connected by a full scale procedurally generated planet.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

when they were originally pitchuing CIG to us they described it as being limited to creating exploration star systems content and not even remotely like what they’ve done.

and the scope change on that would be fine if 8 months ago they were bragging loudly how fast and easy to generate that content is for them (they literally did like a 15 minute demonstration of their planet/star system creation tool).

which all of that just plays into the perception that their leadership and management is a clusterfuck. which this is just one of many areas that does that.

but a year ago – yes almost a whole year now they were promoting 3.0 as being far more than what we’re going to get. so the revisionist history from this talking head at CIG is a bit silly. that stretch goal you shared is ancient history now compared to the marketting specific to 3.0 and there’s no going back to when PCG was planned for much less than it’s ended up becoming.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

oops, PCG not CIG. lol

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

a year ago they were showing and hyping 3.0 as being far more than what it’s now cut back to be, so idk how they can rationally say it’s far more than what it was supposed to be a year ago at this point.

really the problem here isn’t the delays in itself, it’s their constant hyping it (and every next patch) as being right around the corner to drive their concept sales. at some point you just get fatigued by that hype cycle going on year after year combined with the now routine epic delays combined with every patch being a miracle patch.

which anyone who is honest on this site knows how miracle patches go in games.

Zander
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Zander

really the problem here isn’t the delays in itself, it’s their constant hyping it

And it’s beginning to wear thin on the supporters side as well. Their main hype streamers are going silent, playing other games and generally not discussing the game. Both Reddit and the official forums are critical of over hype and delays, which brings me to my beef with the game.

Either CR still hasn’t learned to over estimate or he feels they need to keep hyping for sale due to cash flow issues. What’s the rush CIG? $155 million not enough? Maybe we should step back from the weekly development progression analysis and look at the expenditures from the money already received.

The buggy did really well in sales in light of the current grumbling going on so it’ll be interesting to see what the next concept vehicles does in sales. From what’s been hinted, it’ll be a $400+ ship. At this point, I wouldn’t care if it were the Death Star battle station for sale. I’m done buying I think. Time to show us results.

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Lethality

I’m not saying this is a good thing, but while some things have been cut back, many many more things have been added that were never scheduled for 3.0

Scope change isn’t good. But this patch isn’t necessarily “smaller.”

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

no. just no. listen. the version of 3.0 is heavily cut back on content and tech from what they were selling it as a year ago.

there’s no spinning this to be otherwise. that’s pure fiction. we were supposed to get full stantion system and major back end and networking fixes for 3.0, and that was sold to us as going to happen 8 months ago.

it wasn’t until a couple months ago they disclosed that plan had changed and we will get much less content and the backend and network fixes aren’t coming.

and they are still delayed heavily on the eta for that change of plans for this milestone.

there is absolutely no way to spin it that has any connection to reality that it is any other thing that what it is.

it is smaller. it just is. because that’s the cold hard reality of this. and they still can’t deliver it in a timely manner. now two months past the delayed deadline for 3.0 with a much smaller deployment state for that patch than was sold to us a year ago as going to be delivered last xmas.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”it is smaller. it just is”

It is smaller yes…. in numbers of planet/moons… So what? With PG they can generate millions of planets/moons. ED do have 600 billion stars (+planets)…

Rather than delivering generic rock planet stuff, they choose to provide less but with features. This is not a released game, we do not care if Stanton have 6 or 3 planets/moons. Purpose of patch during development phase is to test and provide feedback. Did you read the 41 screen pages of features completed?

The problem is not CIG. This is the crowdfunded model that let slip people in who are expert on everything, explain how thing have to be done, how every single $ have to be spend while their complain have nothing to do about how project are working.

Seriously, are you more happy with a Stanton system with 300 planets, with 300 different colors and layouts , all with generic locations? I suggest you go play ED until SC is released. It is very good at exploring the vast empiness of space (I am an ED backer and recommend it)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

this is planet earth to joe blobers. are you reading us?

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”this is planet earth to joe blobers. are you reading us?”

Pretty well thanks but I see you derivating in a black hole of negativity, keeping away basic factors that does make CIG situation not at risks in terms of finance and development.

You know: time vs team growth, scope change, funds raising like crazy, … stop comparing 5 years of EA with 4 Billion$ revenue, thousands devs, uptodate tools, known budget of 200M$ at day one with this crowdfunded project.

This self-stimulated negative spiral will bring you nowhere… There are good and both sad example…

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the only negativity is your trump level reality disconnect spin in every single SC article for days on end.

it’s literally bat shit insane and completely delusional the shit you post in these articles every week for days on end.

there’s no reasonable response to your blather because it’s just so incredibly irrational to the nth degree.

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”it’s literally bat shit insane and completely delusional”

My comments are argumented while many of yours posts are disconnected of IRL facts and factors.
If you can’t get it, fine I can live with it. But because this is a comment section forum open to all, I feel obligate to provide my vision of how things translate in IRL for Readers that could be interested by alternate comment.

Chill downDeekay_plus. Nothing of what I say is irrational quite the opposite. The salt thread vs remaining bugs is irrational… but to the degree of human emotivity factor.

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Space Captain Zor

If you can’t get it, fine I can live with it.

Can you though? Can you really? I appreciate when someone bothers to correct misinformation or steer an opinion back towards being an opinion and away from an asserted fact. But you absolutely smother the comments in rambling posts that are very copy/paste and often too scattered to focus anyone on a concise debate. You need to pick your battles instead of just spray and pray at the whole comments section.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Space Captain Zor:” in rambling posts that are very copy/paste”

Well the point is that if someone shoot every week “2 + 2 = 5″… there is little chance that I or anybody else provide an answer different of “2 + 2 = 4”
So as long those same or different people will keep coming spreading troncated or false information, I will provide what you call copy/paste… as many individual as necessary.

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Space Captain Zor

That’s why I’m saying you need to pick your battles. Copy/paste again and again to the same people again and again doesn’t solve anything because those people aren’t listening to you anyway.

All it does is make it look like a forest of the same comments and you no longer see the better, more focused, fresh discussions. 5 unique and well thought out comments stand out more than 50 copy/paste. When people see repetitive “Joe Blobers” reply to nearly every comment you’re going to get ignored and/or outright dismissed.

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Joe Blobers

I see your point Space Captain Zor and it is well explained.

Most of my posts are not copy/paste however. Yes you can have a few lines with numbers for instance that are the same (obviously as numbers did not changed) but most of the time I demonstrate the inconsistency of “statements” versus facts provided by an individual.

I think this is a form of disrespect to let someone leave comments that are factually false. Either it is unintentional (they picked the information somewhere else or they just genuinely missing a point) so better provide another view preferably with facts.
Others just do not care about facts and gaming development rules… and will never. But they keep coming and if you let them go freely, because you already explain your point 5 times… the result is that Readers passing by the sixth time will have only one angle (and a wrong one) of the situation or reality.
Make the count of posts from some… shooting troncated, false or misleading information (and of course I do not include in that count who you know)…
Facts is that I reply to several individual because I don’t have anger against any but only misinformation or twisted reasoning (according to me).

Forum with no moderation, both from web users or site Mods, become a nest for Troll (to simplify), shooting pages of outrageously false information…

Fortunately this is not the case on MOP. First because Mods do a good job and this site is one of few that offering a vast choice or articles about MMO as well as very interesting thoughts about gaming in general.

Nevertheless Space Captain, thanks for taking the time to explain your point.

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Lethality

You’re interpretation is simply incorrect. Items have been cut, and items have been added. It’s not necessarily smaller, it’s objectively different though.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

there’s no spinning or interpretting. that’s literally what it is.

there’s no way to spin it otherwise. it is smaller. you can literally go back to what they were selling it as last year, compare to the feature list it has now, and it’s literally in every single way smaller now than it was last year.

you have to be drinking some heavy duty koolaid to argue otherwise and i’m not sure what your motivation for doing so is, but this is literal insanity at this point lethality. but then you’re lethalty and i am reminded you were dead certain wildstar wouldn’t go f2p when it was obviously and clearly going that route.

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Lethality

Nope, not at all.

I’m as objective and critical as anyone about this project But you seem to be purposely obtuse, when in fact there has been *a lot* added to the 3.0 schedule, while there has also been *a lot* removed to accommodate it.

Why not acknowledge it?

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A Dad Supreme

“I’m as objective and critical as anyone about this project…”
==============

l.o.l.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

first off no you aren’t. ever. for any game.

i don’t even understand why anyone would argue this.

at most scavenging derelicts could be argued to have been added but then they showed derelict scavenging in the 2nd 3.0 demo with the sandworm last year so really it isn’t new at all.

there’s really nothing else that could be said to have been added this year, and only cut stuff once they finally disclosed they were cutting stuff which came way too late to be considered any legitimate level of openess – as usual.

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Lethality

– fully procedural tech meant the addition of:
– ground content (derelicts and outposts) meant the addition of:
– ground vehicles (Cyclone, Nox additions)

Those are significant changes… and again I’m not saying it’s good or wise that they did that, but those things affect every single pipeline from art to engineering.

Fell free to read through my criticism of the project on my Reddit history so you can see I’m not here obtusely defending the project.

https://www.reddit.com/user/Lethality_/

And I couldn’t possibly have a lower karma rating because of it. And I don’t care.

I AM going to defend it from misinformation though. Here. There. Anywhere.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

all of that stuff was pitchd and demoed last year when 3.0 was announced.

litterally 20 days less a year old now.

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Greaterdivinity

Let Lethality be. They really like their longshot, risky, pie in the sky crowdfunding projects and will defend them to the death : )

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BDJ

The game is going to release. Anyone thinking its vaporware at this point is just trolling. I mean you have to be as big a hater as Derek Smart to think its vaporware.

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shear

I think this isn’t as much of a question of if it will release, but rather of when?

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Lethality

Are you going to make me flag your post for being about a poster rather than the post?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

in this case it’s so comical to spin it this way. like… we can literally o back to the convention demos last year and compare with the new feature set and there’s just nothing to argue about it here so why bother? :D

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life_isnt_just_dank_memes

Whoever is in charge of setting up deadline dates at that company is really bad at it or they are purposefully setting deadlines to what they think the backers want to hear. Either way they should really be taking a good hard look at changing their deadline schedules to something more reasonable.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

even when it’s not CR trying to get high off a hyped up crowd they seem incapable of giving realistic ETAs for everything.

and this level of delays is definitely far from normal in game/software development no matter what fanboys may claim.

a software business would not stay in business behaving this way. a game studio would be closed down by their publisher with this level of issues.

even their “super duper transparent” “internal” schedule can’t get it right. and honestly as we’ve been going into detail with it hte last few weeks they add and remove stuff from it so haphazardly you have to wonder how transparent they are actually being with it and how much of the point of it from their end is just to point at it for excuses why they have’y delivered this milestone to us. even while they continue to spam us with videos of it every week

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_Plus:”even their “super duper transparent” “internal” schedule can’t get it right. ”

You missed the point of a schedule report in project. Everything is estimated. Delay in a project does not mean this is not under control… Only people that never want through project of some importance IRL do such remark…

This is okay, not eveybody will or can do important project… I’ll never criticized a fireman to know nothing about Nuclear fission details… but at least, try not to pretend that it is anything but an opinion based on speculative knowledge…

How you see schedule report is totally off ground, you can not imagine how wrong you are… but keep coming with the same attachment to mislead yourself (your problem) but also others…

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shear

“You missed the point of a schedule report in project. Everything is estimated.” Do you realise that that’s the entire problem? CR can say anything, and call it an estimate and get away with it because, well it’s just an estimate.

It’s a self-serving argument.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”It’s a self-serving argument.”

okay but how do you value your owns? :)

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life_isnt_just_dank_memes

Hey “Soulcrusher” you know what goes over better with the paying customers than telling us to shift our priorities when we are your deep pockets? Tell us you guys are bad at setting deadlines for yourselves because time and time again you have a proven track record of not meeting them and that you will all strive not only to do better in meeting them in the future, but that you will try as hard as you can to set more reasonable deadlines so that you’re backers have a clearer picture of when things are supposed to be finished and be in a playable state.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it’s gotten rather absurd. even their “internal” super duper transparent schedule has been a clusterfuck.

at some point there’s just no more pretending they are as transparent as the meme goes. or they have the absolute worst project managers in the the history of software development.

which as the reddit memes goes software is hard to give an ETA for, but this massively goes far beyond the reasonable parameters of that meme. there’s no way any software company would survive this kind of delays and overshotting deadlines and stay in business if they were being held accountable to their clients.

Estranged
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Estranged

DK – they keep adding more and more employees – more variables to control, when they can’t deal with what they have currently.

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Armsbend

If anything they should let go of a large swath of employees to nail down the project and save money. I have every confidence a large part of the staff is probably doing very little due to poor management. SC is like a big party with no real consequence – for the top and bottom. The middle guys are going to get blasted in the end.

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend – I was called insane for suggesting such the other day. lol

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Armsbend

I bet your last bottom dollar if they were working for 200ish people they’d be farther along right now with more quality work. And Bonus! They wouldn’t be forced to sell ships, furthering your goalposts because they’d have plenty of money for years and years.
Managing 400 people, around the globe, by people who are REALLY bad at managing things is a full time job for many people.

I’m starting to think this is going to be a bigger disaster than I originally thought. Duke Nuke ‘Em with consumer’s cash is a nasty recipe.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’m reminded by their lack of respect for the value of a dollar every time they tweet a video preview showing those big full wall murals of concept art in their offices.

that shit isn’t cheap and has no real value towards progressing this project but they’ve gone apeshit on showing off that sort of thing even as these delays get worse and worse.

like we discussed in previous weeks this porject is seriously lacking in oversight and accountability, and for some reason the talking heads at CIG think this is a good thing.

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Space Captain Zor

If backer money funded that shit then yeah I’d be pissed. More likely is that it was funded by CR and Sandi directly, since they do have their own money.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

why would they spend their own money on this when they’ve got people lapping it up and dying to throw them more money?

the fact they’ve got a small but wealthy fanbase that will fly cross the world for a chance to see them in person at some offsite panel at conventiosn they may go to says alot about where the sense of spending money and what must go through their brain to justify it comes from to me.

you’ve got this fairly small group of backers that will rationalize throwing more and more money and praise the gaudy displays of mismanagement of that money, so why spend your own?

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Space Captain Zor

I don’t disagree, I just hope they’re not that corrupt.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

idk that i’d go anywhere near as far as called it corruption. just a lack of respect for money that chris has a long history of – especially other people’s money.

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”just a lack of respect for money that chris has a long history of – especially other people’s money.”

Can you share this “long history” details with amount in $ or any currencies you may choose?

You keep shooting words that depict others as being somebody else:

– “severe issue with not respecting managers “: I answered you… go read GlassDoor resume. All proven fake
– “chris roberts himself admitted “: To bad… no source… all deleted
– “chris watched a video of NMS a few years ago0 and did the mike kern school ”
-“they’ve already had enough serious legal and financial organization threats”
-” they were stalking people on social media”

Deekay_Plus… no need to say: “stop it”… if you want to be taken seriously… seriously stop to spread non sense. I picked all yours above sentences in one single thread!

Its time to change the way you provide “opinion” man because if a statement implies some false underlying facts, it is defamatory. Couching false statements of fact as opinion or within quotes from other sources won’t help you either.

I suggest you to rather use facts that are statements that can be proven true or false….

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you really are ignorant af aren’t you? like you still don’t know about digital foundry somehow?

and defamatory? what are you gonna sue me on behalf of chris roberts now? lmao.

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Armsbend

I absolutely hate that. What about one off sculpted plastic models of ships, characters etc when they do interviews. Those things cost $1000s to produce.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

sometimes i wonder what the gossip is like from top industry people when the conversation turns to star citizen. i’d love to be a fly on the wall for tete a tete between heads of take 2 ubi blizzacti and ea for that one.

“can we copy star citizen’s whaling operation?”
“more trouble than it’s worth and our customers already think we’re the devil as it is”
“ahh you’re probably right… and we make more money selling proper games and dlc anyway”
“yeah they don’t have all that many customers and won’t be long before tey have severe consumer fatique”
“ahh yes, well how is cod 2017 coming along then?”
“getting there, how is battlefield 2017 coming?”
“quite well”

XD

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Armsbend

Lots of SC news lately. They are obviously feeling pressure from their backers now that they are realizing what is going on. After 5 gd years they are finally waking up to know what the smart money has known all along.

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Melissa McDonald

Smart money…. I see what you did there

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Armsbend

on accident i swear! :) nice catch feels bad

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Utakata

My money suggests he would long driven this project into the ground if he was running the show. As the best I’ve seen him do was put lipstick on a pig once. But hey, he’s feeding off the discontent of the backers who feel this project is going at a Blizz’s pace, who am I to say the Smart money isn’t so “smart”. /sigh

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Lethality

It’s the same cycle every year pre-gamescom and pre-CitizenCon.

Again, the realities that impact delivery time have to be considered here:

– massive change in scope from the original KS
– standing up a 400 person studio from scratch, including all of the tools and pipelines to make that not crash on itself
– due to the above, no doubt efficiency lost vs. an existing vet studio, say a Bungie
– massive amounts of R&D for tech required but nonexistent
– building 2 full trple-A games

If you really look at it all, they are probably comfortably ahead of scheduled for industry tolerances of comparable game projects.

But seeing the sausage made doesn’t sit will with many….

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

1) mmo was pitched with 100 star systems in the kickstarter. that never changed.
2) welcome to every game development project ever. every single game you play started with a team of 10-20 people doing protoyping and design.
3) every bungie game has started the same as this too.
4)every single game ever has rnd for technical challenges. customizing engines is a mundane part of game development no matter the engine used.
5)they;ve been in development for six years and have a barebones tech demo for one game and apparently nothing to show of the other – that is not normal in game development and worse than some of the worst dev hell cases in the history of the industry.

even wildstar was further along in 2010 as it entered one of the most toxic and dev hell scenarios in the history of games. and it’s a miracle wildstar launched at all.

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Space Captain Zor

Really hoping the “nothing to show of the other” is just my assumption that SQ 42 is being treated as very closed-door development since it’s not a multiplayer game. Then again I haven’t really followed other single player crowd funded games.. IDK, I think it makes sense but by now we should have seen a lot more unless really critical development for it stalled along the way.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they were supposed to show us sq42 gameplay at citcon last year but instead we got the sandworm demo and the planet/system creation tools demo (which is one of the more obvious and easier to find sources of them talking about how fast they said they could generate content with their tools).

idk that they’ve said anything about showing sq42 stuff this year but a visible number of backers seem to be for lack of a better word, rather keen on seeing sq42 gameplay of somekind this year, preferably gamescom and if not then, then citcon.

which really gamescom is quickly approaching and the 3.0 delays, what other grandiose flashy gameplay demo can they show that isn’t going to piss people off further?

personally i give zero shits about sq42 beyond them delivering it to the people that backed for it, since they decided they weren’t going to do the promised drop in/out coop for it. and even back then i didn’t care that much.

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Lethality

Very naive comments there, spoken like someone who has never run a business. You don’t get up-to-speed of a 25 year old company in 2 weeks. That’s ignorant to say “every game starts this way” – no, nearly none of them do. And absolutely NONE of this scope and scale start this way.

I’d say there’s, maybe, 3 years of actual production development in place. Again, they’ve lost a coupe years due to the inefficiencies I’ve outlines.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

spoken like someone that knows nothing of game development or the business of game development.

and we are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy past the point where any of those excuses would ever be relevant if they ever were relevant to begin with.

and somehow completely ignores the first 2 years of their weekly videos which assured us all progress way being speedily made towards that original 2014 beta deadline.

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shear

I said that yesterday, they have to be talking about SC. Would love to hear what the industry pros are saying behind closed doors.

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shear

They had nothing in 2014, that’s why they had to run that joke of a poll.

SQ isn’t coming out next year either I’d bet. This is right about the time where we would start seeing trailers, isn’t it? When was the last time they showed anything SQ related?

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Lethality

Downloading Unreal Engine doesn’t put you in the game development business, friend.

But this goes beyond the game business – it’s common sense that you cannot start as a team at year 25 of maturity. Many many man-hours were wasted because of this. I don’t see a way around it.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

just because you and other fans of this game choose to act like the business of games is some big secret that no one knows about doesn’t mean other’s don’t follow industry news well enough to have the basic understanding necessary to realize these are all shit poor excuses that aren’t even remotely relevant and make no sense to keep bringing up.

you don’t even have to do any game development or know anyone in the industry to be aware of this. there’s lots of regular news coverage of the industry to follow along and game devs love to share this stuff.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

actually reading more into the statement about this they are pretty much being out right ignorant and arrogant about the delays, going so far as creating revisionist histories because apparently CIG drinks the same koolaid their toxic fandom elements drink.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

ehhhh i think they are almost dimissive of their backers. it’s something i’ve thought of more and more is the lack of oversight and accountability this company demonstrates regularly.

this maybe a nice nod but it’s a self created scenario where it’s gone so bat shit insane to the nth degree they can’t avoid throwing us a bone. otherwise there’s almost a naked disrepect for backers when it comes to being accountable or saying anything that can be seen as a negative.

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Armsbend

I like how he managed to plug the $70 dune buggy in his last statement. Reminded me me of a chain clothing store trying to push a sweater you don’t want at checkout.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’ll be quite happy when they stop with the shitty puns for that damned thing on twitter.

it’s like watching your drunk uncle try to impress a woman in front of his wife.

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Armsbend

*involuntary real life cringe*

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