Camelot Unchained’s player progression will be a ‘long-term investment’

Is that… is that Camelot Unchained’s Beta 1 peeking over the horizon? From the tone of this week’s newsletter, it certainly sounds as if the long-fabled test is growing nearer every day. In fact, there’s even a section on the website that exhaustively deals with the philosophy and plans behind the beta.

The team had a whole mess of projects to report on this week, including the beginnings of a character information screen, model diversity in the mass bots battles, and dummy NPCs that run around the place.

Possibly one of the most interesting sections of the newsletter dealt with the team’s plans for player progression, which sounds somewhat different than your typical PvE MMO: “We want player’s actions to factor into the global scope of events taking place across the entire world. Player progression is intended to be a long-term investment, and to allow players to focus on what they like best: playing the game how they want to play. For Beta, we’ll be laying out the key progression elements, but will tweak the time it takes to progress during Beta 1.”

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76 Comments on "Camelot Unchained’s player progression will be a ‘long-term investment’"

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goatleaker

So far, the only thing “long-term” that’s been proven about CU is the waiting around for the game. Over 2.5 years late for Beta 1 and still no date in sight. Oh well, it’s not like there are many other MMO’s in development worth waiting for.

Estranged
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Estranged

Goat – they aren’t blowing money right and left, nor begging for it. This was more about hiring issues. Progress has jumped greatly since some positive steps were made in that direction.

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goatleaker

Don’t get me wrong, I hope it’s great. I pledged. It’s the only MMO I’m still looking forward to. But after the results I’ve seen with every other crowdfunded or early access MMO I’ve pledged to or otherwise followed, I’m not too optimistic these days.

Reader
Wanda Clamshuckr

If your personal tastes run towards half-baked messes, you can find plenty of those out there.

I’d rather, finally, get one product that is ready at launch.

Reader
goatleaker

If they’re now a minimum of 2.5 years behind on their original development projections, what makes you think they’ll be able to follow through on anything else?

Reader
HelsEch

Do you keep up with their streams, newsletters, updates, or user stories? Have you been there since the kickstarter, watching them build an engine, build the game systems, rebuild them and move forward? Do you know anything about the development of video games or software in general? Do you know how many programmers they had when they started the delays and how many they have now?

The reasons behind the delays are sensible if you look into it. They’re in a less than ideal location to hire the kinds of people they needed to, so after the initial delays they put into motion the set-up of a satellite studio in Seattle, which has greatly improved their ability to hire the people they need and has increased the productivity of the project spectacularly.

The scope of Beta 1 is also very different from what it was when they announced their development projections. There were even reasons given for why they wanted Beta 1 to start with less when they made those projections and when they increased the scope of Beta 1 and decided to make it a more polished and stable build they gave reasons for why they made that change and I won’t fault them for any of that.

People will stop nagging about how long they’re taking to build an MMORPG, one of the most time consuming and expensive genres to make games for, once the Betas get shown off and people can see the progress they’ve made.

So, what makes me think they’ll be able to follow through on any part of their development? Well, it’s because they’ve followed through on everything they’ve sought out to do so far. Even if they had to change how they got it done, they’ve gotten what they’ve stated they wanted to do. It’s just that sometimes what they wanted to do changed. Beta 1 could have started two years ago, but it would’ve been the Beta 1 they used to want, not the Beta 1 they want now.

An artisan knows that their best work is never rushed. Some will push the craftsman to finish a product to satisfy their own selfishness, but those who truly love works of art will wait for perfection.

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Veldan

I see it as a positive thing that they’re late. If anything, it confirms that they are able to follow through with everything they said. They’re willing to postpone beta or launch any amount of time so that they can make the game they said they’d make.

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goatleaker

Could be, no guarantee of that.

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Patreon Donor
Veldan

Seems to me that is a guarantee, because as long as it’s not ready, they’re not going to launch. They’ve already shown that with the beta delays. Something not working as it should? Postpone beta, fix first. This is how you make a game that does not have a billion bugs and issues when launch day finally arrives.

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yoh_sl

Slow long term progression does sound good, even if we don’t yet have a good idea of what that would look like yet. However one thing does bother me, why stats? Why have allocatable stats and points, if what your trying to build is a horizontal progression system?

Stats are great if you want a vertical progression system, more stats, more HP, MP, damage, absorption, etc etc. But that’s not what were trying to do here.
On top of which having so many different stats simply adds complexity and redundancy unnecessarily. And complexity reduces depth. (Ie it doesn’t matter how deep your system is if people can’t understand it, or get bored and leave and thus don’t experience it)
And some stats won’t be used by some classes. It just seems like it’s the wrong tool for the job.

Skills and skill components on the other hand, is the bread and butter of horizontal progression. More options.
My recommendation is to look into Final Fantasy 10 or Path of Exiles grid based progression (even if they are functionally vertical progression systems), take out the stat increases and sub in skills and skill components.

Having a single, massive grid that you slowly unlock, is both simple and easy to understand and use, yet retains every ounce of depth, while also being purely a horizontal progression system at it’s core.
It’s also possible to have every class available to faction to be present on the same grid, and allow access to skills or skill components, and even change classes by progressing all the way from one class starting position to another.

Nothing quite says long term progression then progressing multiple classes on a single character. And this is one way you could do it.

Only potential issue I’ve seen with grid systems is that if you make large changes, you may have to give respec options to players. POE does this often, thou that might be due to it being a vertical progression system rather then horizontal.
In either case I would suggest investing in your skill system for progression, rather then stats or equipment. As it inherently lends itself better to horizontal progression.

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HelsEch

Here’s the thing about the attributes in Camelot Unchained. The current vision of character attributes is that they do not directly affect damage. The attributes affect either defensive/utility stats like movement speed or carry weight or skill and gear requirements. Strength is required to equip different heavy weapons and armor, Agility is required to equip different light weapons and armor, both are required for skill components for their respective weapon types. Attunement is required for skill components for spells. These components and gear pieces are largely about having more options rather than being direct upgrades.

The reason they take this path is in part because of the aging and growth systems. As you play, fight, kill, and die, your character will progress as a result of the things that happen to them. It’s far easier to attach these changes to your attributes rather than use only a skill system.

It’s important to also add that they’ve said this is not a completely horizontal system. City State Entertainment has made statements that essentially come down to that this game will be more horizontal than most MMOs.

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yoh_sl

Yeah, you really should have read my next post, as I already addressed some of your points. Also, saying stats are required for XYZ is a moot point. You can make anything required for anything else, it doesn’t have to be allocatable stats.

I don’t mind requirements, even stat ones, but stats that you allocate at character creation before you even know what you want to do or what the requirements are, is bad design. It only works if you can gain or change stats after the fact, and that leads headlong down the vertical progression line.

Which is fine, but that does mean you get away from skill being the determining factor in battle, and more towards simply grinding or time played.
And from what I’ve heard, that doesn’t seem to be what CSE want to happen. Their ok with some vertical progression, but not a lot.
Again, this is simply the wrong tool for the job.

Also, I have no idea what your talking about with aging and growth. Haven’t heard a lick about it.

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HelsEch

I never said anything was required for anything else. I said that attributes made something they wanted to do easier to accomplish, which at the very least I believe it does.

CSE has already made statements on how they want to get information on all the parts of character creation and progression out there and available to players so they can make those kinds of educated decisions, which is a bit more than I can say for your Path of Exile example, which while having systems to correct your mistakes in character building it can take a large investment of your in game resources if you decide you wanted to just play something else, but don’t want to make a new character. On the other hand, with Camelot Unchained’s model it would take a similar investment of your time to correct your progression, since instead of being based in levels is based in attributes growing and shrinking based on use or lack of use, making it possible to potentially correct your mistakes and simply end up with a character that matches how you play in a simple and effective way. Are there other ways to do it? Sure. Is it worth the time and effort to pursue a different model when this one hasn’t even been tested? I don’t believe so.

I’m not really sure how much you’ve kept up with the information and statements for this game, which I can’t blame anyone for having missed some things considering how much has been said across so many platforms over the years. For an example of aging being talked about, it is mentioned here http://camelotunchained.com/v3/piercing-the-veil-6/ among the questions from backers. The aging feature was mostly talked about during the kickstarter and hasn’t come up much since due to the nature of the feature not being a focus of IT, Alpha, or Beta 1. I suggest looking more into the stated designs of progression in general dating back to the kickstarter days, because it is a topic that is only really rearing it’s head again now as we reach Beta 1. There’s a lot to do with soft caps and never-ending progression that creates a ceiling for vertical progression without ending your character’s growth and change horizontally.

The first rule of Camelot Unchained is to set aside some of our preconceived notions of MMORPG mechanics, because things get a bit BSC.

Estranged
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Estranged

Difficult to have boons and banes without stats. No way to quantify them otherwise.

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yoh_sl

Not necessarily. It just requires a little more creativity.
Also, I’m not against stats specifically, but rather allocatable stats as a form of progression in what should be a horizontal progression game.

You can have stats, but outside of equipment, boons and banes, you really shouldn’t too much leeway over them. Not if you want players to be relatively even so far as power is concerned.

Which is why I say progression should focus on skills, not stats.
That doesn’t mean stats shouldn’t be present, they just don’t really progress.

Reader
Arktouros

This is all a big reason why I don’t bother getting in on things early anymore. These games end up going through so many changes that you have no idea if it’s something you’d even be interested in playing anymore by the time the game actually releases.

In the case of progression, it’s a tricky thing. Developers who are going to be guaranteed sticking with their game they developed for years tend to have that long term outlook. For them they’re thinking what’s year 1 goals, what’s year 3, 5, 10 year goals. This is their profession. Most gamers I know on the other hand are looking at things from the perspective of what’s going to be fun for the next month or three? When you start factoring in subscription prices you gotta ask if you’re really getting your money’s worth per month which becomes it’s own issue depending on the game as well.

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Ark – what has changed with CU?

Reader
Ludovic Darkstar

CU is a niche game, and those of us that have backed the game, have hopes of reliving our youth and settling down for the long haul.

I’m tired of burning through content faster than it can be produced; tired of pay to win; tired of players and gold sellers using hacks; tired of slideshow battles with a few hundred players on screen; tired of more of the same with prettier graphics.

CU is going old school and at the same time making something entirely new.

Am I a fanboi? probably! Am I delusional? no! *although I could name a few that might disagree!*

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Arktouros

See I read stuff like that all the time, reliving the glory days, getting back to better systems but the truth was the systems back then were just a buggy, hacked mess that had little content like they are today. LOL I remember on Midgard were farming dungeons that weren’t even itemized at DAoC launch.

After doing these games for 20 years the only thing that’s changed is the amount of people playing them.

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Paragon Lost

Yeah when I read that in the email I let out a little “rawr!” I love that sort of thing. I don’t to play a ARPG, FPS etc, where you dive right in and it’s all now just mostly about honing your twitch skills. I want investment and depth and I think I’ll get it with CU.

Also once again I’ve got to give Mark and Company major points for being so communicative during the development process, it’s so damn refreshing.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Thanks, much appreciated!

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adri

Personally I think a lot of people don’t get the concept of progression in CU. It’s not about raw power.
The progression system is about choices. When you play for a year you are ofc a bit stronger than a day 1 character but the more important thing is that you have more choices. The ability system is built upon variety and different options.
A day 1 character might be able to defeat a vet player but it will be hard because the vet player has more experience (in a player kind of things), more ability components, and adapted weapons; weapons that fit the best to the playstyle.
Progression is about the option to have a bigger plot to build on, the right to have a shop as a crafter, the option to employ NPCs as guards or crafting helper.
You need to play the game in order to progress that’s right but having a bigger plot or having the permission to design a guild emblem doesn’t make you better in a one vs one situation.

And ofc your stats will increase over time so you are able to wear different weapons (you’ll need a minimum attribute points in order to use different weapons e.g. strength = heavier weapons) and playing will increase the amount of money you have so you can buy improved gear made by crafters.

The game is all about RvR, there is nothing else you can do so they have to ensure that the progression is not that harsh that new players feel useless. They must have the option to participate otherwise the game will be dead within 6 months. MJ knows this. He is aware of these things because there are (roughly ;)) 129346184 games out there in which it is differently. We don’t need a game in which you have to die over and over again to improve to be able to participate with the “older kids”. We need a game in which you can have fun even when you start playing the game 3 years after release.

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Mark Jacobs

I’ll post in here a little later folks, busy with our Big Bot Battle test right now. It’s been fun so far. Almost hit 1.5K Players + Bots.

Reader
Ket Viliano

Is this a network limit, a render limit, a server process limit, or some other bottleneck?

Darkfall had 10k +, but was heavily client side ( collision and hit detection ), with the attendant hax and exploits. I played in 1200v1500 fights, those were crazy, and fun, even if I had to turn the graph way down.

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Francis Baud

If such epic fights (2,700 players) would have happened, I guess that at least a few players would have uploaded some screenshots or videos of it. Afaik the biggest battles in Darkfall (fought in a single location) didn’t have more than 500 players and they were mostly unplayable due to lag.

If you’ve got a video or screenshot that shows +500 players PvPing I’d be interested to see it.

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Ludovic Darkstar

CU has server-side physics to prevent client side hacks, you might be able to convince the client it’s somewhere it isn’t, but the server is authoritative at all times.

Reader
Ket Viliano

Trust me, I know.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

When I say 1.5K, that’s 1.5K in a single battle, not on a server. 1.5K on a server is for tourists. :)

As to why even 1K is a challenge for any developer, it’s both network and rendering related. FYI, the world’s record for an FPS is 1.1K I think from Planetside.

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Ket Viliano

Darkfall had a much higher number than 1.1k, Aventurine was getting 2k+ in repeated battles. Figures that they would not check in with Guiness World Records.

Reader
Slaasher

I believe that Planetside 2 holds the record. Not sure if they still do but they did at one time

Reader
Mateusz Pachnik

Slow progression in a PvP game is something i’m, very much, looking for.
Nothing will be more rewarding then being a veteran player after :D
Can’t wait!

Reader
adri

Yeah I think the same. I hate games in which you accomplish everything in a matter of weeks.

Reader
Lethality

Same.

But that makes the design decisions the developers have to make very interesting if they also expect to continually bring on new players when there’s no way they can ever equal long-term players.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Me too. Won’t be the case here of course.

Reader
Ket Viliano

Leveling power progression, and PvP, do not mix. *AT ALL*

That this is so should be obvious to even the most newbie/inexperienced of game developers.

Siphaed
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Siphaed

PvP is just a state of game enemy compared to computer programmed. The actual game type is still that of RPG, which is the true identity of what is being played. Role playing games tends to side towards player progression and development as a priority aspect of what it is. No matter the enemy.

Don’t see this game as PvP either. It is not. Player vs. Player are games with balance around each character against the other equally in small pitted matches. This game is a Realm vs. Realm vs. Realm game. The point being that all players are mere pawns of their overall Realm’s Chess team trying to take control over a 3-sided board. But some are not pawns, instead there are Knights, Rooks, and even Kings. Some pieces being better than others. That is the nature of the game.

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jaif13

So, one year from now, how do you see them selling slowly-progressing “pawn” status to new players? “Please join, our Kings and Knights needs some fresh meat to beat on!”

-Jeff

Tamanous
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Tamanous

It is largely horizontal progression. The benchmark is to allow new characters the ability to be largely on par with base power but with a smaller selection of customization of abilities. Even gear has a tight power spread controlled by crafting procedure, materials and engraving which largely is equally about other factors like durability and engraving for affects.

A noob can likely still blow others up effectively but would not adapt and customize to varied situations as well as a veteran. Due to the interaction systems with, nearly everything from magic to gear to who know’s what, customizing your attack and defense will be more important than sheer scale of damage. As far as I know, a noob could even easily obtain great gear quickly to narrow the gap even more as gear isn’t gated.

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Ket Viliano

To work for PvP, the skilled player with a noob toon needs to be able to counter the no-lifer with a vet toon. This works ok in EvE with frigates, due to the tackle and transversal mechanics, after the first 6 months to a year or so, alternatively with a skill injection or two.

Pure horizontal mechanics will fail to provide adequate competition, it’s like a noob can only be a rock, when the vet can be rock, paper, or scissors. That won’t work well, and new players will not put up with it.

Thanks for the heads up, you saved me an hour or more of time :)

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Ket,

Dark Age of Camelot had a vertical progression system and PvP and it did pretty well. Still running after more than 15 years and at its peak, had more subs than SWG, Asheron’s Call, and UO so it did prove that PvP and leveling could work quite well.

In the case of Camelot Unchained, we are a horizontal game where a lot of your progression comes from things other than combat so while the veteran will have advantages, it won’t be what you describe.

Mark

P.S. And for most of it’s existence, Dark Age of Camelot had more subs than Eve Online. :)

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Ket Viliano

The PvP and the leveling zones were quite separate, you know that.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Absolutely, but you could level your character in PvP not just PvE so maybe I just don’t understand your point (not the one below, I’m going to answer that now). I’m also in a stifling hot office while we’re running the Big Bot Battle, so I could definitely be a bit off! :)

Reader
Ket Viliano

Get AC or move to Cali, the weather ( and programmers ) are great out here!

My point is that level power progression systems only worked next to PvP when they were separated by different rule sets, expressed as different zones. I.e. the Frontier, the Battlegrounds, those helped keep low level players from encountering much higher level players, unless desired.

Personally, I found no utility in trying to level in the Frontier, that was purely for mass PvP battles. It may have been possible, but it was not practical.

Best of luck, I hope to play and have fun in Camelot Unchained!

hamblepants
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hamblepants

DAoC has Realm Levels (slow vertical progression) and Realm Abilities (which can be used for small vertical progression and significant horizontal progression).

This is a form of leveling and takes place after you’re 50, and it takes place in RvR/PvP (edit: though it doesn’t necessarily have to start at 50, you can RvR when you’re any level).

The leveling of Realm Abilities is a mix of slow, mild vertical progress (e.g. augment strength, mastery of pain) and significant horizontal progress (e.g. purge, ignore pain, prevent flight, TWF).

I think it actually did work. I regularly have seen, and see, low realm rank players (with fewer realm abilities) beating higher realm rank players 1v1, 2v1, etc. So that system does actually work.

It’s not perfect, but saying it doesn’t mix isn’t accurate.

You not liking it is another thing entirely, I won’t argue with that (though that’s not what you said).

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Thanks! Today’s test was a complete success so I’m thrilled. Nice way to work on the weekend.

Tamanous
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Tamanous

Horizontal … not vertical.

Rock, paper, scissors is largely based on class build and likely not countered much by character progression itself … at least to a degree to out weigh all deficiencies.

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Ket Viliano

I got that, but it’s pointless if the ‘vet’ can kill the noob only because the noob lacks needed options.

Tamanous
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Tamanous

Not much else to say really. You aren’t willing to consider successes in historical system and firmly stick with your projection. You also don’t seem to consider that progression is a primary mechanic for player retention. CU isn’t an fps game and the question has been brought up (by me directly even) to Mark about the issue of hardcore gamer progression and core game design is built to counter it without additional gimmicks.

Not much else can be said when your very concern is a primary concern for the developer yet you still seem to feel it’s not good enough.

Reader
Ket Viliano

If progression is required for player retention, then none of the very popular PvP games would have any retention at all, yet they do. I could point out CoD, CSGO, LoL, Streetfighter, just as a very small sample.

Power progression works as a mechanic in single player games, and to some extent as a competition mechanic in RTS ( Starcraft, LoL, Civilization ( turn based but still ), etc. What makes these games work is both the episodic nature of the game, and the pressure to fight the other players while building your power. Most MMORPG games, you just level to max, then PvP, unless there are no safezones, then you just get ganked by everyone who has more levels or numbers in their gang.

I have played in said “historical system” since DAoC, and I am most unimpressed, to say the least. Mostly what happens is that high level players gank all the noobz.

I would ask that you read the rest of my comments, there is much more to the issue than just one narrow facet.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

If horizontal progression is handled badly, you’re absolutely right. We’re are/will work hard to make sure that the veteran has other options but it still won’t be one shotting. Vets will have better armor, weapons, etc. but not in the traditional manner of starting with a crappy sword and capping at Stormbringer. :)

What we’ve said is that 1:1 a skilled veteran will almost always beat a skilled newbie depending on the RPS of their classes. However, the newbie will be able to give a good accounting of himself and if he has friends, then the fight can change dramatically.

Back to the test I go. I’ll check back in later.

Reader
Daniel Miller

I have a question. I am a backer. I could ask you on your website but I rather many know the answer. If one buys the lifetime sub, does your company garente at least three years before subs are gone. Like if the game goes f2p or whatever? Some games in the past offered this feature but then went back on it.

Please answer so I and others can feel at peace knowing about the 190+ we give.

tinnis_
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tinnis_

Mark Jacobs has already gone into detail what he thinks about F2P

DragonCon 2016: Mark Jacobs on trolls, subscriptions, and Camelot Unchained

and even “he’d shut the game down before he’d make it free-to-play. “

Estranged
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Estranged

tinnis_ : I’m sitting here laughing in a hospital waiting room – folks think I am crazy. Mark and FTP w/RNG loot boxes would mean the end of world. I would dig a bunker.

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adri

They won’t go f2p. MJ hates this concept and until now he kept all of his promises. This game is specially made for a niche group of players who are willing to pay a small fee. If they go f2p they will lose a lot of players imho.

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Mark Jacobs

Legally we can’t guarantee that, no game developer or publisher will do that, especially not for three years. Even if our sub was $10 per month, that would only be 19 months, not 36 months. What you would be asking for is essentially to guarantee that you get $360 of value for your $190.

All I can guarantee, and I said this during the Kickstarter, is that while I run CSE, we won’t switch Camelot Unchained to FTP. If that doesn’t give you enough comfort, please let me know and I’ll refund your $190, no worries!

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Oyjord Hansen

Help us MJ, you’re our only hope!

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Mark Jacobs

I hope not, I want to see some of these other indie MMORPGs succeed, but I do thank you for the sentiment, truly.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

How this works out depends very much on whether “long term” progression will be linked primarily to characters or accounts.

The flip side of “long term progression” is “takes forever to be any good,” and if it takes ages to get a single character built out reasonably well, then the problems set in when, inevitably, large balance changes either eliminate or heavily nerf a character build, leaving people with the choice of either playing something that feels completely broken, or making a “long term investment” in something else.

If the main avenue of long term progression unlocks power that is usable for all characters, then it helps to somewhat offset the pain of shifts in the meta, and players at least feel that the power they built up on one character is equally useful if they decide to reroll to something new. This is something that can be done right if you take the right approach from the start, but there also are lots and lots of ways to go very wrong with it.

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Jake Boller

Yay! Long term progression is super important to me. This was something I felt DAOC did very well.

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Ket Viliano

They kept speeding it up for a reason. I remember getting a free level for every level earned. Pretty lame imho.

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Mark Jacobs

This game’s success depends on us getting long-term progression right. I think we’re going down the right path, but as most of you folks know, we’re also willing to admit when we are not and make changes accordingly.

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Ket Viliano

Cool beans, it really all depends on a myriad of specific interactions, hope you get it right.

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Mark Jacobs

Me too! It won’t be easy, that’s for sure.

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Ket Viliano

Adapt, overcome, etc. You seem to be on the right path.

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Mark Jacobs

Hope so. I’ve always been willing to make changes to my/our ideas. Sometimes they work, sometimes not but either way, unless you are the market leader, doing nothing is not a good idea. And it isn’t even a good idea if you’re the market leader. :)

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A Dad Supreme

“Possibly one of the most interesting sections of the newsletter dealt with the team’s plans for player progression, which sounds somewhat different than your typical PvE MMO:”
=====
I’d hope it would be different from your typical PvE MMO, considering it’s a full-scale PvP MMO, lol.

A better question would be “How different is it from your typical PvP MMO progression?” which I’m sure Mark will come in and fill everyone in.

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Mark Jacobs

Maybe later today, I’m heading into the office now to do some work and participate in the Big Bot Battles test that is happening in 44 minutes. :)

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silverlock

Wait I’m having a vision of the future… Hundreds of players are posting dozens of threads (because who can be bothered to check for threads already about the subject) whining about the nerf to exp after release.

Personally I like a long but steady level/skill progression. Or no levels at all.

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Mark Jacobs

LOL, that’s why we’re starting off by telling people, as we have have from the beginning, that progression is going to be slow compared to modern games. I’m sure some folks will complain but that happens on any RPG.

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Ket Viliano

How is slow different from grindy as hell, and how does power progression affect PvP?

DAoC was great, but that was because of zonal separation of PvE from PvP rulesets.

This same issue of slow progression, huge power difference between ‘noob’ and ‘vet’, combined with a total lack of safezones, is what killed Darkfall.

PS:
TOA killed the game! :P
I bought in just after TOA and New Foundations, was huge fun, but crippled all the same. They kept throwing free levels at us, and the core of what made the game work had already been disrupted.

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Mark Jacobs

Post TOA was a different game than pre-TOA. WoW’s success put us in a position of trying to compete with them to get players back (we lost about 30% of our players within 30 days of WoW launching) so we had to try to change things up. Plus, our data was showing us that fewer people were playing in RvR even before ToA so we had to make changes then.

2004+ was a tough time for us. Not only did WoW hurt every other MMORPG out there but then EA bought Mythic so that made things even more difficult. With Camelot Unchained, we are starting with a new game that isn’t trying to compete with WoW or anybody else so we aren’t under that same kind of pressure as we were then.

In terms of grinding, you’re thinking of a more traditional progression system which we certainly aren’t using. :)

Reader
Ket Viliano

Dang, WoW crushed it… 30%? Ouch. EA has been the kiss of death for ages now.

Ok, I will have to see just what progression mechanisms you use, looks like something other than the Diablo kill – loot – level routine.

Reader
Mark Jacobs

Actually, 30% wasn’t bad at all. EQ and some other games got hammered worse. Look at when a bunch of old school MMORPGs started hiding their numbers. It was really bad for some. We were one of the few that kept posting their game’s numbers as numbers, and not as where to throw the fastball (high, low, etc.)! :)

oldandgrumpy
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Kickstarter Donor
oldandgrumpy

EQ2 managed to make one of those changes for players own good and for the health of the game right around Wow launch. Guess where all the disgruntled players went :)

Reader
Ket Viliano

EQ was deliberately targeted for guild stealing by Blizzard. Talk about “meta gaming”!

Reader
adri

There is nothing you can grind in the first place. There are no NPC’s who drop gold and you can’t level your character with NPC kills. You just have to play the game. Just do what you want: Solo, with a small team or with a group of friends. Just have fun. This system (Progression) will be tested during the beta phases. If you are a backer you can participate in those tests and you can share your experiences in the forum.
the rule is: As long as you do something in the game for your realm (being afk is not helpful ;)) you will be rewarded. The progression system is part of the reward system so at the end of the day you can get materials, gold, different permissions to do different things like having a bigger plot, or ability components.
There will be a system in place that somehow (I’m not a dev so ..) adds everything up that happens in 24h and then pays out the rewards for everyone.

wpDiscuz