The Daily Grind: What MMOs do you wish would come to Steam?

I was poking through my Steam library this weekend hunting for an old game I wanted to install to see whether it still worked when I noticed something that’s never struck me before: Most of my Steam games are not MMOs, even if I count orbiting genres (like survivalboxes) in with them. In fact, I realized some very prominent games (like World of Warcraft and Guild Wars 2) as well as some littler, older titles I play (like Ultima Online) have never migrated to the platform. Which is mildly annoying as it would be nice to see things like play tracking, achievements, and friends lists in the platform where I store all my games (you know, that I buy and don’t play).

What other MMOs What MMOs do you wish would come to Steam?

Bonus question: What percentage of your Steam library is MMOs?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today’s Daily Grind!
SHARE THIS ARTICLE
Code of Conduct | Edit Your Profile | Commenting FAQ | Badge Reclamation | Badge Key

LEAVE A COMMENT

87 Comments on "The Daily Grind: What MMOs do you wish would come to Steam?"

Subscribe to:
Sort by:   newest | oldest | most liked
Reader
socontrariwise

MMO’s that allow me to keep my pre-steam account credentials.

Reader
Melissa McDonald

I want original Diablo on Steam, personally.

Reader
Raimo Kangasniemi

Valve has already too much power as an unofficial holder of keys to the promised land. We need real alternatives, not even more gargantuan Steam.

Polyanna
Reader
Patreon Donor
Kickstarter Donor
Loyal Patron
Polyanna

It’ll never happen because EA, but the one modern-ish MMO out there right now that probably could benefit from being on Steam, but isn’t already, is SWTOR. On the other hand, keeping in mind that if they ever did go there it would be complete with launcher-launching-a-launcher-to-launch-yet-another-launcher “integration” with Origin (separate login also required), it’s probably better for everyone concerned that this will never come true.

Reader
Dread Quixadhal

The main advantage to having an MMO in Steam is not needing to dig through their website to find the patcher to download.

I wish The Elder Scrolls Online would properly allow you to use Steam, but Zenimax wants every nickel they can get, so they won’t allow you to transfer your existing account to Steam.

Reader
MesaSage

None.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

Star Wars Galaxies and Earth and Beyond, throw Tabula Rasa in as well, oh and Warhammer Online

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Peregrine Falcon

I’d like to throw in City of Heroes and Lego Universe.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Actually….

SWG Steam.jpg
Reader
Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

Indeed it was once upon a time on Steam but is currently gone (unless you had it in your library already)

Does it still install?

Reader
starbuck1771

Yes indeed it does

ceder
Reader
ceder

Very few of my games in my library are mmos and to be honest I really cant think of any mmo that would come to steam that would motivate me to play it again, even if they were to go from sub to buy to play etc.

I’m fine with steam’s platform and as well I don’t mind GoG but Origin I’m not a fan of.

Reader
Rolan Storm

Answer is none. I added couple games into my Steam library (Shroud of the Avatar and Repopulation), but that’s about it. And moving away from Steam – yeah, your guys’ comments are similar to thoughts I had launching GOG the other day.

Not only I do not want any more MMORPGs in my Steam library, I want to move away from Steam. So I am buying new games on other platforms if possible. GOG is my favorite, but I also like Origin now. I think subscription is really good solution for people like me.

Reader
Wilhelm Arcturus

Steam for a game that requires its own launcher and login seems redundant to me. I bought Rift through Steam back in the day, then never bothered launching it through Steam once I figured out it wasn’t required.

Reader
connor_jones

None. Although I don’t totally boycott Steam, they are not my provider of choice when it comes to new game purchases. Never cared for Gaben Newell, Steam’s attempts to corner the market on PC gaming, and think that Half Life is the most overrated game series ever.

kjempff
Reader
kjempff

Maybe if the mmo would update through steam instead of installing their own launcher I would consider it … one less launcher messing up my system is a positive. Otherwise I try to avoid steam if it is possible.

Reader
wratts

Guild Wars 2 is the only one I can think of offhand that I wish was Steam integrated, and that mostly for the auto-update capability. I play GW2 a couple of days every couple of months, and I’m always a big patch or two behind so when I think of playing it means a ~15-30 minute delay to start. Sometimes that can blow the whole timing of a play session

Reader
Robert Mann

Meh. Most of them just launch their own launcher via steam, so I’m just as happy downloading it elsewhere and avoiding the poor disc use that steam has.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Tandor

I’m equally happy playing any game – whether MMO or otherwise – through Steam, any other platform like Galaxy or Origin, or directly through a game launcher.

Depending on how we define MMOs, Secret World Legends is the probably the only one I have in my Steam library, and is certainly the only one currently installed.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Patreon Donor
Ashfyn Ninegold

None. Other than deals, Steam isn’t the place I go for MMOs.

Reader
Maggie May

I bought ESO through steam but couldn’t download the game through steam. I had to use the game site. Only thing I have on steam is dragonage and skyrim.

Reader
Bryan Turner

None, the last time I felt the urge to log in to ESO I couldn’t because Steam was being DDOSd and I had no way to launch the game outside of Steam.

Minimalistway
Reader
Minimalistway

Steam is for single-player games, i keep my MMO away from it, it would be great to have one platform for all MMOs, but not steam, and not controlled by a for-profit-company, it could be done if MMOs developers want to do that, but i doubt they’ll ever think about it, Steam is a big market.

Reader
rafterman

Zero.

Steam is a bloated mess and I use it only with I absolutely have to. The less MMOs use it, the better.

Reader
Oleg Chebeneev

I dont see much reason to care. After Fallen Earth came to steam the only thing changed is how I launched it. Before I was clicking icon on desktop, after i clicked it in steam. Thats it.

As for %. I have only 2 MMOs: Fallen Earth and Defiance in steam library.

Reader
Sray

Personally, I’m trying to move away from using Steam (which hasn’t been all that successful thus far, but the sentiment it there), so I’d have to say none.

If I can find a PC game I want through another store, I’m going to use it. AS weird as it might sound, I think that EA has done an awesome job with Origin, I just wish they were more aggressive about bring in third party publishers.

Something I’ve noticed about many people bring up in a “defense” of Steam is the convenience of all their games in one place, and not having to mess around with additional programs, which is why they like it. At this very moment on my primary PC I have Steam, Origin, GOG, Twitch, Uplay and Battle.net installed, and if I could combine that all into a single interface, I would. And that’s what I think we need right now: a meta interface application that allows customers to compare prices between the store fronts, plus their various pros and cons, and then purchase/manage/launch all through of the games a single interface despite utilizing as multiple different programs.

ernost
Reader
ernost

More competition is always a good thing. Lack of competition lead to a monopoly, which leads to ridiculous prices.

If you had told me 5 years ago, that steam would be selling games for INR, in prices that I could actually afford, I would not have believed you. The only reason they bothered doing this was because of competition from third party sites.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

I think that EA has done an awesome job with Origin

It doesn’t quite matter for me because they are using the name Origin, as well as a variant of the old Origin Systems logo. Having a company’s online store constantly reminding me of how said company acquired, and then killed, the developer of my favorite game franchises from the 80s and 90s isn’t a good way to get me to use the store.

Besides, when EA decided to give away some of their old DOS games, they made a special, DRM-enabled version of the open source DOSBOX emulator to be used with those games. That shows how much they distrust their customers, going out of their way to put DRM on something that has close to no commercial value anymore and that they were even giving away for free.

And that’s what I think we need right now: a meta interface application that allows customers to compare prices between the store fronts

The Enhanced Steam extension for chrome (and, I believe, also Firefox) does that; while browsing Steam I also get the prices on competing stores, including Amazon, Humble Store, GOG, Bundle Stars, and a number of other smaller stores. On occasion I’ve been able to get a game cheaper from somewhere else thanks to it.

It’s quite rare for Steam to not have the cheapest price, though, at least where I live.

(I mainly use that extension for another reason: it puts a red warning message on any game that has additional DRM besides the standard Steam one. For me, particularly, red = never buy, regardless of how much I want to play the game.)

Reader
Sray

The Steam extension isn’t the same thing as what I’m talking about though: it’s for the browser store, and doesn’t help with the client program, which is where most people tend to shop from. And, while it compares store prices, it’s not a “universal remote” for PC gaming, which is what I feel we need: one application that interfaces with all the other client programs for you.

As for the other stuff, we all have different priorities. I’m not fan of additional DRMs on top of things like Steam and Origin, but the de facto monopoly that Steam presently has on PC gaming is of much greater concern to me. An application breaks Valve’s stranglehold on “convenience” goes a long way to opening up competition, which is best for consumers as far as I’m concerned.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Kayweg

I’m not interested in running MMOs through Steam.
The social features already in place in them do the job just fine for me.
I don’t need the extra layer.
Therefor, none of my the currently installed MMOs run through Steam.

Reader
kidwithknife

It doesn’t make a huge difference to me, but I do have a small preference for having my games on Steam. If a developer doesn’t want to do that, fair enough, I’m not going to not play their game over it. What does annoy me though is when an MMO launches without Steam and then is added to Steam later without an option for existing customers to move to Steam without spending money. If they really don’t want to use Steam then I’m fine with that, that’s their choice and they know their business better than I do. If they’re going to use Steam though, I kind of resent developers not being up front and consistent with that from the get go because I wind up buying the game outside of Steam and miss out on the option to have it there. That bugs the hell out of me. If I really dig a game I’ll play it anyway, but it does affect the chances of me revisting a game later if it didn’t quite hook me the first time around.

Reader
noel Soltic

Having a mmo on steam really has no advantage to me apart from more exposure in a heavily trafficked area and thus hopefully more players to play with. For me, steam is a place to store all of my games no matter their age and install/uninstall them at will when needed( even many years after game release). This doesn’t work with mmos since when they get old and abandoned you can’t play them anymore unless its an illegal fan run service elsewhere.

Steam has served me and my friends well with coop and single player games over the years and I have no complaints. However, I can’t think of any significant reason having my favorite mmos on Steam would be of any help to me.

Reader
Armsbend

Blizzard doesn’t need Valve in any way. It would be ridiculous for any of their games to be tied to Steam. Why would Activision care to give Valve one byte of data on their users?

Same goes for other developers.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Why would Activision care to give Valve one byte of data on their users?

For online-only games you might be right; Battle.net has a ridiculously high number of users for the small number of games it has.

For all other games, though, Activision still relies on Steam because Steam is the single most visible game storefront in the world. Just about every game Activision is making for PCs, except from its MMO-lite Destiny 2, is getting released on Steam; for example, you can pre-purchase Call of Duty: WWII on Steam right now, and even copies acquired elsewhere (such as through Amazon) activate on Steam.

For other studios that don’t have this kind of access to a wildly popular storefront, though, Steam tends to be the best among the feasible options. Assuming the game is any good, publishing it on Steam increases sales enough to more than make up for Steam’s cut.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Alex Js.

I wish none would come. I don’t want for Steam to become even bigger monopoly than it is right now, I’d rather see a viable alternative being developed by someone else (unfortunately there isn’t any right now) and see more games coming to that (future) alternative platform instead.

Reader
noel Soltic

I am curious what benefits you are looking for in a different platform? Lower cost, more variety of games, better help support, better regional services?

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Competition, likely.

A monopoly means consumers are at the mercy of the de-facto monopolist; actual, effective competition forces every market player to behave (well, assuming they don’t make a cartel, like console makers seem to do with their game pricing).

The issue with digital games, and particularly those that use DRM, is that you are tied to the store that sold you that game. This greatly multiplies the potential for the biggest player to become the de-facto monopolist; it wold take some fairly heavy-handed regulation — like forcing all digital stores to provide a way for players to move their games between stores — to remove that incumbent advantage.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Jack Pipsam

Dark Age of Camelot would be nice, I know it was Greenlit, just never actually launched.

Reader
Morgan

Hive’s Dream MMO ™

Reader
Morgan

Also you can add non steam games to Steam… but I GUESS thats not the same.

Reader
Dystopiq

Guild Wars 2 could benefit from more exposure. They don’t exactly advertise it as much as other games.

Reader
Lethality

Most players with MMOs are their primary or only source of game don’t use Steam.

MMO games are a platform in and of themselves, tying all of the achievement tracking and social features you could want right inside of the game.

Steam is not a good platform for anything but exposure to people who didn’t want to play the game in the first place.

If you *are* going to buy a game though, do it through GOG. No DRM, no overhead, no bloat.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

If you *are* going to buy a game though, do it through GOG. No DRM, no overhead, no bloat.

Absolutely. If it’s available through GOG, go for it. It’s what I do myself.

Most publishers are addicted to DRM, though, so if you keep to just GOG you will be missing a lot of great games. Heck, I myself miss many great games because I refuse to purchase any game that uses two or more concurrent DRM systems (like Sonic Mania, one of the few Sonic games I don’t have, and that I refuse to purchase until Sega removes the Denuvo DRM that blights the game).

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Patreon Donor
Loyal Patron
BalsBigBrother

Not really bothered where I buy my games from so it doesn’t really matter to me if an mmo is on steam or not just as long as there is some place I can buy it. Steam is just a store front with a few fancy bits on that don’t really sway me personally one way or the other. I will use steam when they offer the best deal but I will use other places too if they give me the better offer.

Oh and bonus question 2.67639902676399% roughly :-)

plannick
Reader
plannick

if they use steam api to login. hate having to remember yet another set of login info.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Nearly all of the ones I either play or would like to ever play.

Why? Because where I live being on Steam means I can use local payment systems, in local currency, to pay for them; when a MMO is not on Steam I usually have to use an international credit card to pay for it, which adds both hassle and a tax of about 5% imposed here on all international purchases made with a credit card.

Steam might not be perfect, but it was the first (and, for a long time, only) large digital games store to set shop here and accept local currency. Them setting shop here is what prompted me to stop pirating games and start paying for them (well, kinda, I already had a largish legitimate games library, but I played far more games than were officially released here and resorted to piracy for all other games; to this day I still pirate without a qualm any game that can’t be legally obtained here, but thanks to Steam that list is now vanishingly small).

As for the bonus: the percentage of MMOs I have on my Steam account is small because I have nearly 900 games on it (and nearly 500 more on my GOG account), but I do have quite a few MMOs on Steam; for the most part any MMO that can be moved to Steam, I have on Steam. This includes current games like Marvel Heroes, STO, and SWL, maintenance mode games like GW1, closed down games like SWG, and even games I regret ever spending money on like ED.

Reader
Utakata

To answer the bonus question though: 100%. As the only game I ever used from Steam is a MMO. o.O

Reader
Sally Bowls

None.

I would rather 100% – not 70% – of the money I spend go to the game company.

I also think that the “Steam Sale” mentality was great for game companies in the short term but IMO bad in the long term. I preorder WoW automatically. But for everything else, it is no longer “cool! a new game/expansion is out.” but “the game will always be cheaper later. Do I want to buy the game at the most expensive it will ever be?”

I am also concerned about Steam’s dominant position in gaming and over gaming companies. Although, tbh, I am not sure that is permanent. The most likely outcome is that they will still be overwhelmingly dominant in seven years. OTOH, Microsoft, Facebook, and Amazon are looking to do “stores” and in the longer term, historically it is usually not good to bet on the entrenched company vs Microsoft, Facebook, or Amazon. e.g.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/304946/Twitch_introduces_Extensions_suite_to_help_foster_engagement.php

Aside from being a fresh way to customize broadcasts, extensions also represent a notable new monetization opportunity.

For instance, the ‘Gear on Amazon’ extension highlights Twitch partners and affiliates’ favorite Amazon products, making it easy for viewers to find and purchase them, and letting Amazon Associate members earn commission on those sales.

P.S.: bonus question: does Gabe’s ego/enjoyment cause him to hold on to Valve past its peak, or does he sell, and if so, to whom. Google? Ten Cent? Microsoft? Facebook? Amazon?

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

valve is like the microsoft that gaben left in the 90s and FUDs about in recent years with his hypocritical conspiracy theories about walled gardens and death of win32.

a monoolithic giant that has lost touch in many ways and just uses it’s weight to push it’s competition around.

tho valve is in much worse state in terms of innovation and providing a competitive evolving product than microsoft has ever been, even in teh worst of the balmer as ceo days pushing his xbox division money pit at the expense of the strength of windows on the pc.

which even balmer’s worst decisions in that effort are no where near as poorly thought out as valve’s ongoing modus operandi. even if balmer’s mistakes cost far more than valve’s do.

ultimately like so many companies that fail to stay hungry, valve is in a downward spiral if not at the bottom line but rather in terms of what it means to be a gaming company. and they are shedding consumer good will at a rate faster than take 2 banning certain mods from gtao.

but hey there’s a dota card game on the horizon, i heard it’s going to be the next big esport! XD

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

AFAIK Google already tried to purchase Steam once, or at least there were strong rumors to that effect. But Valve, being a private company, is absolutely impervious to takeovers, including those of a hostile nature.

Reader
Sally Bowls

is absolutely impervious

Valve is absolutely as impervious as they want to be. But the flip side is, at any time, one individual can emo out and “screw you guys, I’m going home” whether it is a wake up call to the health/mortality of people in his life or just snapping after having to do one too many press releases on diversity in development or games. I am enormously less driven than Gabe, but there is a limit to how much hassle I would accept in my life when the alternative is to be retired with billions to spend.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Gabe can retire without selling Valve, he just has to hire professional management to run the company for him. It would still be making him more money per month than most people earn in their lifetime without him having to lift a single finger, and with the added advantage over selling out that he could still get Valve to do anything he wanted for whichever reason.

Bobuliss
Reader
Bobuliss

I don’t use Steam.

Reader
Utakata

And I have Steam, but only used it the once. So I can’t really answer the DG question either. :(

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
DeviateFish

I would like a launcher that is just for MMOs, all MMOs. It would make it easier to discover new MMOs, and keep up with news on MMOs you may have played in the past. So many ideas.

Zulika Mi-Nam
Reader
Zulika Mi-Nam

I am fine with individual games having launchers, but I do dislike those “all company games in one” launchers. I hate having to do updates and getting the associated problems that come with them for games I will never play. Steam is ok as a front-end to me.

90 items in my library – 3 or 4 that could be considered an MMO these days, but none really.

kofteburger
Reader
kofteburger

The multiverse that is Ultima Online. So more players would try it.

Reader
Ken from Chicago

CITY OF HEROES, because I am required to–and also I want it back–and six years later there are still elements not found in other mmos.

Also TABULA RASA.

Plus CITY OF TITANS, SHIP OF HEROES and VALIANCE ONLINE (which did have a joint panel at PAX West–as *correctly* reported by MassivelyOP).

ceder
Reader
ceder

CoH used to be on steam before they shut down.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

i still shop on steam but i’ve become more and more dissapointed in valve as a game company and with steam as a store/platform.

if it’s not the fact that they spend more time effort and money fighting consumer protection laws across the world than they do developing games while saying customer service department is not in their culture, their cancerous hat economy which preys on children and encourages illegal gambling, their games which have become esports primarily because of the hat economies and not because they are esports worthy games further eroding the worthwhileness of esports as a valid competition, or the fact that steam as a library and the steam store continue to be convuluted unorganized messes of shit teir ux that gets half assed half hearted low effort fix attempts every so often when people are complaining about, or their joke of a review system which is increasingly being manipulated by relevant hive minds for private interests. it’s ultimately going to be the death of hl3 and their belief that a fucking dota card game is anything but the death knell of them as the valve we once knew and thought of as the good guys in this industry.

yes folks. half life 3 is official dead. and in fact all narrative driven games from valve from now on. all their writing staff left the company throughout the past year and the final blow was the leak of the half life 3 script and a confirmed anon inside source confirming that valve that we once knew was long dead.

gg and thanks for all the trading cards.

Reader
Ket Viliano

OMG Cancer Hat is OP!
:P

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Pandalulz

You know, just because you brought it up and made me think about it, I HATE the trading card system. I’ve been doing most of my gaming on PS4 lately, which is half the reason I haven’t really bought anything on Steam lately. And the thing is, on PS4, my level is tied to my achievements, the level goes up by playing games. On Steam, my gamer level is tied to how much money I spend on trading cards. That’s it. Money. Gamer level means nothing, but it’s a number I like to watch go up, gives me a warm and fuzzy. Knowing that that number will only go up if I spend money on it disincentivizes me to give a single shit about that system. It actively turns me off.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

i’ve pretty much stopped cashing in my trading cards since they required phone number to sell them without a 2 week waiting time (which generally renders them unsold forever when attempting to sell them in that condition).

i mean i alreayd have email based 2fa for steam which my email has sms based 2fa on it. so why do i logically need that for steam as well?

other than steam’s half assed attempts to crack down on csgo cheaters, which this effort has been largely useless it turns out. much like all their other efforts.

and steam’s trading card leveling system is pretty much worthless now. at one point it was tied to a chance to et into their ill fated steam machine beta and get free hardware, but really probabbly would’ve been more cost effective to just buy the hardware one could potentially win from buying trading cards in hopes of winning it. XD

Reader
Ket Viliano

Banning CSGO cheaters so they have to buy the game again with a new account is the business model. If they are half assed about it, it is only to avoid squeezing the marks too hard.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

the concept is sound, ban all cheaters that use the same phone number for the 2fa necessary to effectively trade skins and therefore gamble/trade which is a major component of csgo including cheater’s play.

the problem is it’s like robo calls we get in north america and europe where all it does is arms race up the ante and cheaters learn the robo call tactics of duping local numbers so you’ll pick up – in this case they get fake numbers to get teh 2fa sms on so they can continue to trade and gamble while cheating.

and like most automatic anti cheat measures primarily negatively affect legitimate players. while being largely ineffective against determined educated cheaters.

Reader
2Ton Gamer

None as well. I like Steam for my “smaller” games and I love the older games they put on, but if I don’t have to use Steam for MMO games I do not. The reasons given below are sort of weak though. The update thing I kind of get, but that’s a feature that can be turned off. As for killing the retail box, that was on the way out once digital storage and bandwidth went up.

Reader
Kickstarter Donor
Pandalulz

I don’t like using Steam for MMOs at all. I’ve had too many issues with automatic updates that break a launcher and trigger an entire patch download to happen all over again. I have bought a few MMOs through Steam because they were on sale, but then I go activate the key and play through the native client instead. I think Tree of Savior is the only game I specifically played through Steam because there is no other option. It’s weird because for as many games as I know people buy and play on Steam, I never see any of my friends actually logged into it anymore.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

i don’t generally have issues with auto updates breaking launchers, but occasionaly steam’s drm global server will shit the bed and i’ll be unable to play certain games which for some reason rely on it despite having their own drm global servers in addition to teh steam drm.

i find steam convenient to shop through for games i am aware of in advance and have a reasonable accounting of before hand. and the cash shop integration into the steam payment system is nice as well.

on teh flipside it seems i can’t buy games on steam for friends in other countries due to them clamping down on cross region pricing first sale doctrine excercising retailers based on teh recent smear campaign of the entire resale market using g2a as a bogey man excuse to fuck with all steam user’s rights to resale (as ruled in courts in multiple countries/jurisdictions about 7 years ago but still endless appeals and failure to comply by valve – which apparnetly high powered legal teams are in their corporate culture but cusomter service departments are not).

so i owe two friends money for games that refuse to get paypal with no way to buy them games on steam like i could’ve. as well i can no longer gift my brother and sister in north carolina games on their birthdays and xmas like i usually do. all because valve doesn’t want to compete with rightfully and legally run competitors who utilize their platform in completely legal and legitimate ways.

Reader
Ket Viliano

As much as I do not like Valve, they are in the right with regard to reproduction under US law. First sale applies only to copies made or authorized by the copyright holder. To transfer possession of a digital work requires reproduction, which is a right retained by the copyright holder. Furthermore, all software is sold under license, which pertains to contract law, not copyright law. If the contract says that you may not resell ( transfer, gift, etc. legal thesaurus stuff ) the work, then you may not resell it.

Foreign countries like to dick with US companies, due to some kind of response to the arrogance of some US citizens, and our perceived power and influence in the world, regardless of the reality that most US persons are neither arrogant nor powerful. Home team advantage applies doubly in court, and this is the case everywhere in the world. Anglo contract law, based on the old English common law, holds that a contract is executed in the jurisdiction specified in the contract, European continental law holds that a contract is executed wherever the customer is seated, regardless of statements in the contract. Unfortunately for the Europeans, the Anglo law is constructed this way to avoid conflicts and confusion, which is amply demonstrated by the results of continental law.

The courts are wrong, and the judges should just admit it. Ego and vanity is what drives them, not justice.

I am not sure why Valve cannot find a way around the buy-it-as-a-gift thing. There is always a way, I just don’t think that Valve cares worth a damn.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

software resale has been ruled a consumer right under first sale doctrine in at least 2 US court circuits in teh past decade.

contracts do not overule laws or courts. and this has been ruled in the US countless times specifically with regards to EULAs/TOSs

Reader
Sally Bowls

The US may or may not join Europe in extending First Sale to software. But the most you can say is that is murky in the US. IANAL, but the supreme court upheld Autodesk vs Ventor in 2011. I.e., licensees do not get the first sale rights that owners do. As long as the software companies can continue to maintain, as they have for decades, that they are licensing the software not selling it, then there is no first sale. The district case where Adobe lost it was due to not filing proper evidence and I read that people thought they would have won if they had been competent.

I think the most you can say at the moment in the US that being able to legally resell your $20 game. best case, would take years and hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees.
—-
The surprise to me is that the European ruling, which seems relatively clear as legal rulings go, has not caused Valve to change its policies in Europe. While I know nothing of the legal/political situation, I would have expected movement by now.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

My guess is, they have the store backend ready to allow repacking games into gifts; this, plus perhaps relaxing the rules on gifting, would allow them to comply with any court order related to first sale doctrine.

But I believe Valve is waiting for an actual legal challenge to happen before making such a service available to customers. Valve can’t unilaterally decide to allow the resale of Steam games without angering most of the publishers that sell through Steam; implementing refunds has already caused great irritation among many devs and publishers despite Valve having been forced to implement it due to a court sentence.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Those restrictions are in place because games in certain regions are far cheaper. I usually pay some 30% to 50% less than US or European players pay, and Russians usually pay about half what I pay. Without restrictions, and with the ease you nowadays have to send money abroad, gray market sales would be a huge issue.

On the other hand, I do think Valve clamped this down too much. Gifting a game should always be possible between countries with the same price, where the price difference is reasonably small (say, 10% or less), or when gifting from the more expensive country to the least expensive one. And they should make it somehow possible for those living somewhere games are cheaper to pay the higher price in order to gift someone who lives somewhere games are more expensive.

(Well, ideally prices should be the same worldwide and all barriers brought down, but that would require bringing wages in places like Africa and SW Asia to the same levels you have in the US and Europe, and that isn’t happening anytime soon. Heck, one of GOG’s main drives was to offer a single global price, but even them capitulated and started offering cheaper prices in less developed countries.)

ceder
Reader
ceder

I in some cases have to pay 5-25% more for games in my region than even the US due to price exploitation between steam and various studio/publishers.

GoG as cited indeed used to be good for equal pricing but they’re slowly following into steam footsteps so that they can generate more business and as well invoking “not available in your region” restrictions as well.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

grey market is a dog whistle for anti consumer rights.

it’s completely legal to buy something in one region where it’s cheaper and export it to another for a profit. it happens literally all day and night every day and night.

valve have taken a wholly anti consumer approach here that goes far beyond any reasonable action against g2a’s behaviour that isn’t even in valve’s perview or jursidiction to go after to begin with.

let alone being illegal in much of the world.

and they’ve been regularly ruled against that way in courts across teh world but have spent untold millions appealing those rulings over and over again across the world.

maybe export/import tariffs should be paid on those goods and services, but like so much ecommerce including physical goods often it is not, and that’s hardly unique to valve or video games.

there is no reasonable argument for this behaviour by valve, including that g2a are awful people. g2a being awful doesn’t give valve license to violate our first sale doctrine to resell goods and services as we see fit as consumers.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

it’s completely legal to buy something in one region where it’s cheaper and export it to another for a profit. it happens literally all day and night every day and night.

Not when you have a state-granted monopoly right, unfortunately.

Copyright laws often allow the copyright holder to exclude all others from importing the product to the country. It’s why, for example, most videos published by Disney on Youtube aren’t available where I live; Disney entered an exclusive distribution deal, handing those rights to someone else here, and as a result isn’t legally allowed to provide their own shows here without the authorization of the local exclusive distributor; in fact, if they weren’t able to block my country on Youtube, they would be legally forced to remove those videos from Youtube as a whole.

Setting different prices for different countries is up to the publisher, not Steam; and when the publisher sets different prices, or excludes the game from being sold somewhere (like BDO, which isn’t on Steam where I live), Valve is legally required to block those sales across country borders.

Something similar happens when patents are involved, BTW; a patent is a government-granted right to exclude everyone else from making or importing something that uses the method or product described in the patent, even if what would be imported is perfectly legal in the country of origin. It’s why it’s illegal in the US to import medicine from countries where it is cheaper.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

i think you severely misunderstand how copyright might even remotely apply here.

or patent law for that matter.

nevermind that there’s absolutely no laws barring consumers or business from importing video games from other regions whatsoever. except where in there is a larger embargo or sanctions that specifically specifies specific products from specific countries of origin. and in those cases said video games wouldn’t be available for sale at cheaper prices unless they were domestic products of said companies, and steam would likely not be able ot legally do business there anyway.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

As far as the US is concerned, there is no need of a video-game specific law, since copyright law itself deal with importing copies; 17 U.S.C. §602(a)(1) reads:
(1)Importation.—Importation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under this title, of copies or phonorecords of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the exclusive right to distribute copies or phonorecords under section 106, actionable under section 501.

The same is true in many other countries, thanks to international agreements on copyright. The copyright owner has the exclusive right to manufacture or import works covered by the copyright. There are a few exceptions — for example, copies legally manufactured and purchased abroad with no intent to resell — but large scale sale such as practiced by Steam is unlikely to qualify.

Of course, the copyright owners could decide to retain their global distribution rights (instead of selling them piecemeal) and not enforce any restrictions on sales across country borders; that is up to each individual copyright owner, though, not Steam, which is just a store, albeit a very large one.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

that’s still a misunderstanding of copyright law.

you aren’t making new “copies” you are selling existing copies/licenses.

idk how that isn’t abundantly obvious and clear here.

it’s the same reason that when i sell a computer or a phone the software on that phone or computer can go with it.

what you’re suggesting is it should be illegal under copyright law that one cannot resell their phone, their computer, their cars, their toasters, their fridges and all many of items because of some fiction about how software licenses work.

when that’s not even remotely how the law works or what is being described in what you quoted.

there is even specific provisions for software resale under first sale doctrine which is a higher law than copyright legislation in the US and other countries.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

you aren’t making new “copies” you are selling existing copies/licenses.

Which is why the tidbit about importing is meaningful. Copyright doesn’t just prevent others from making copies without the authorization of the copyright owner, it also prevents others from bringing into the country copies made abroad.

It’s the same with patents. I mention prescription drugs because they are the most visible example of this; even when the prescription drug is authorized for use in the US, even if it was sold abroad by a subsidiary of the US manufacturer with the exact same formula as in the US, prescription drugs can only be imported into the US by the US manufacturer, and any other person or company attempting it will have the shipment seized.

it’s the same reason that when i sell a computer or a phone the software on that phone or computer can go with it.

For part of the software, yes, it can go with the phone/computer/whatever; software that is tied to the hardware, such as an OEM or embarked SO, tends to automatically transfer with the hardware that runs it. This means that as long as you reset the phone or computer back to its factory settings — which removes all software that didn’t already come with it — and either destroy or give to the buyer any copy of that software you received or made you should be fine.

Other pieces of software are a bit more complex in that regard. The court decisions require that you make yourself unable to run that copy of the software; for applications purchased from a phone’s app store, for example, you would need to get whoever manages the app store to transfer that software to the account of the phone buyer, as well as erase all backup copies you might have made of it.

(That assumes you can’t legally make and distribute copies of the software, of course. If you have, say, LibreOffice installed on the computer you can leave it there regardless of anything else, as its license allows you to make and distribute as many copies as you want.)

In any case, this applies to consumers, not to Steam. Steam itself, being the store that makes that first sale, isn’t protected by any of that, and as such can’t allow a copy intended for sale in a given territory to be sold in another. Which means, for example, that Steam is legally required to prevent me from being able to purchase games for the much cheaper Russian price.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

you are yet again grossly confusing things.

precription drug import laws in teh US have very little to do with copyright. somewhat more to do with patent law, adn everything to do with general us big pharma protectionism.

and under US embargo law steam shouldn’t doing business with russia at all as a washington based company if the current embargos specify not allowing it. beyond that there’s not a damned thing enshrined in copyright law or otherwise barring import of russian license keys of call of duty for steam.

also keys aren’t actually licences.

just stop. there’s nothing in us law that prevents one from buying a cheap software key in anotehr country and using it in the US legally within these parameters. certainly fucking not copyright. and certainly under us law steam has no legal obligation to prevent it.

just stop. i’ve gone showered gone shopping had lunch play an hour of games and been through a thunderstorm since this rediculous argument started.

valve is not you friend. gaben is not a good guy. neither are strictly speaking adhering to the law. in teh us or any other country.

Reader
Sally Bowls

what you’re suggesting is it should be illegal under copyright law that one cannot resell their phone, their computer, their cars, their toasters, their fridges and all many of items because of some fiction about how software licenses work.

You may be being misled by trying to apply common sense to the US legal system. I have life experience that you are absolutely wrong here. I worked for a leading voice mail company back in the day when that was a thing. A hard disk of a size that cost $500 at Fry’s would cost $20,000 as part of the system; i.e. this was not a low margin business. Companies were legally allowed to resell their used hardware. But the recipient could not use that hardware without getting a liscense for the software inside it from my company.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

GL enforcing that in court loooool

you were right previously about the 2011 ruling. you should’ve stopped there.

corporations especially american ones frequently step outside the bounds of the law hoping to go unchallenged. it’s the whole modus operandi of court settlements is preventing a precedent from being set against your business model when it looks like you will lose.

the argument was stupid before it started, especially extending premises into it that never existed in teh first place.

valve fights consumer rights world wide. they spend how many millions on it every year. all while claiming a customer service department isn’t in their culture. that says alot about valve as a company.

Reader
Ket Viliano

Selling a physical CD is one thing, making a reproduction over the internet is another. Reproduction is exactly what is protected under copyright law.

Reselling your computer, or its hard drive would be legal, transfering the software to another physical medium is reproduction, and is protected. Or, at least, it is supposed to be. In the US, that is.

First sale doctrine is not a higher law than copyright law, it is the result of a US Supreme Court ruling from like 1906 or thereabouts. First Sale is held to be a narrow ruling, with significant limitations.

Anyway, that is what I got from doing a quick search on duck duck.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

microsoft tried to argue in two federal US circuit courts this that the license wasn’t transferable on this argument and were defeated in those courts.

you have ever right to resell software licenses. it’s literalyl covered in first sale doctrine specifically.

Reader
starbuck1771

None because I am not a fan of steam. Why? Because it killed my box and physical swag collection.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

eh things were going that way (box and swag) before steam even took off at all.

i think the last couple games i got with legit manuals were teh homeworld games, maybe morrowwind and maybe the final one nwn1. can’t recall nwn2 if it had a legit manual.

for me personally i lost almost every physically purchased game from 1998 until 2009 via various house moves and such while cd based drm and disc based installations were increasingly a hassle that i will not soon lament the loss of.

while i am including an optical drive in my latest build for the sake of burning mix cd’s for the back porch, i am happy to report that it’s been many years since a video game disc has touched the one i have now.

that being said, my steam library is full of humble bundle trash i can do with out, much of which won’t even fucking launch. i don’t even take free games on steam anymore really for the most part. i no longer window shop and impulse buy on steam sales.

and thanks to their anti compeition actions against legal resale markets and consumer rights, i can no longer buy little games on their platform to gift to friends and fam even.

my email account archives serve as plenty good enough resource for finding old game accounts to get downloads and log ins from nowadays for the most part when push comes to shove.

wpDiscuz