Star Citizen’s Chris Roberts is ‘fed up’ with giving 3.0 release estimates

Eurogamer’s just published a long Gamescom interview with Cloud Imperium’s Chris Roberts on Star Citizen, and anybody concerned about the state of 3.0 and its long delay and missed windows should probably give it a read — it may not change your mind, but it’s the gospel from the boss’ mouth. Also it’s significantly more entertaining than debating space poop.

Roberts first won’t agree that the 3.0 alpha, when we finally see it, constitutes beta. “With 3.0, the game is moving into a phase akin to Early Access,” he says, as “3.0 is the first time you’ll have some of the basic game loops and mechanics,” the first slice of the game with “proper persistence for your character, ship and items in terms of what their state is, their location is.” Terms like beta and early access, he says, are “just labels.”

“People still think of the old way [of making games], like my past games. We’d talk about a game for years, we’d show it, but no one would have their hands on it ’til it was out. There was an obsession with ‘when will it get released’. Even with those [traditional boxed] games now, they get patched, they add things, make things better over time.”

Roberts also touches on the game’s vast incomes, justifying those who spend thousands on the game as their hobby and maintaining that the game’s fundraising dictates CIG’s budget. “Right now it’s a very not-for-profit enterprise where we plough the money back in,” he says. “I definitely feel the responsibility to deliver the game, and the best game possible.”

Finally, Eurogamer effectively asks Roberts to defend himself against the tired old scam claims that have plagued the game for years, and he does so by pointing out that triple AAA studios delay games all the time, and his studio is no different — except in that it warns its backers, repeatedly, that release windows are unpredictable and destined to move. And frankly, he’s tired of what he calls “fan trolling.”

“People still say ‘Chris, you lied to me’, even if I did give all those caveats for our predictions. People forget all those qualifiers. I am fed up of giving someone an estimate – I’d rather say, here’s the data I have, here’s the schedule I see. This is what we are hoping for. Software developers at all levels tend to be optimistic – you have to be to build big things. But I hope that with what we’re doing, show what we’re doing every week, we can educate a fair amount of people about the process. There will always be cynics. […] There’s a subset of people who say ‘this thing is never going to come out, it’s a scam’. Which is plainly not true. It would be the worst scam in the world. We’re hiring all these people, we’re working really hard. We’re showing what we’re doing every week.”

Source: Eurogamer
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389 Comments on "Star Citizen’s Chris Roberts is ‘fed up’ with giving 3.0 release estimates"

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wayshuba

Outside of all the drama surrounding this, to CRs specific complaint – tough doo-doo.

While he mentions other AAA titles, there is a stark difference when you are working with your own money, which most of them are, and OPM (other people’s money).

If you don’t want the release pressure, then use your own money. The minute you take OPM, you are under pressure to deliver – like it or not. It doesn’t matter if it is investor money, bank money, or crowd funding – you now have other people you are responsible to for your actions and outcomes.

Perhaps he should have considered that BEFORE he took OPM, but now that is water under the bridge. If he wants people to lay off, then he should refund 100% of the money collected and work with his own funds exclusively. Otherwise, someone should slap him and tell him welcome to the real world Chris, this is what happens when you take millions from others.

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Rquebus

“People still say ‘Chris, you lied to me’, even if I did give all those caveats for our predictions. People forget all those qualifiers. I am fed up of giving someone an estimate – I’d rather say, here’s the data I have, here’s the schedule I see. This is what we are hoping for.

That’s fine. In fact, not giving estimates that almost invariably turn out to be wrong due to complexities and emergent issues is something many backers (and, I believe, staff at CIG) have requested for a long time simply because of the uselessness of the ensuing hype/drama train. And in fact, sharing more granular progress and schedule data is both more helpful for managing expectations and more interesting (for those playing the Just How Do Big Budget Games Get Made? Home Edition).

However, the caveat that comes along with that is that you’ll need to keep updating on that schedule at least every couple of weeks (maybe monthly at the minimum), not just wait until you’re way behind and the natives are restless before trotting out the progress tracker. Which is an annoying bit of extra work when you’re a long way off from the next big deliverable, and a little less encouraging-sounding than a guestimated date when the bulk for work for a patch/deliverable is still incomplete.

Swagging estimates is easy and rewarding (in the short term) when you’re in the early stage of a development effort and all the deliverables are really far off; it’s not so nice when you’re getting down to the wire (or late) and there’s still lots to do. Maintaining a detailed living schedule saves some of those last-minute apologies but it is a lot more ongoing work and discipline, and it subjects you to much more scrutiny in the early part of a effort (though that’s not always a bad thing in terms of managing both expectations and scope).

You can do either one, but pick your poison. Don’t just flip-flop between which one is “easiest” based on how early or late you are at the moment and wonder why folks keep getting annoyed.

My $0.02, coming from a guy who’s learned a lot of things the hard way and hasn’t always been a great project manager himself.

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Dividion

We have access to their development schedule and they give us a weekly update on blockers, so I’m fine with not having a set date. It’s more information than we usually get with the “it’ll be ready when it’s ready” design philosophy.

In any case, I bet CIG releases Squadron 42 before Valve releases the next Half-Life installment. (Half-Life 2-Episode 2 came out October 10th, 2007, so we’ve been waiting 10 years for the next one in that series.)

hamblepants
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hamblepants

I can see where people are coming from with a lot of their complaints about how SC is being developed (scope creep, delays). They said they’d deliver features by X date, and they said this to people who gave them the money to make the game.

But most of these crowdfunded games wouldn’t get the funding they ask for if they gave realistic/conservative estimates, ones they have a 90% chance of being early on.

Games wouldn’t get funding with realistic release date estimates, because most players won’t back a game that will be released in 5-7 years after it funds. especially because other devs will be willing to lie, and we’ll give our money to them, the ones who say they’ll release a similar game but do so 2 years earlier.

So the devs have two options:

1) Lie, and get funded, make people angry, eventually deliver the game and the anger at the delay disintegrates (if the game is good).

2) tell the truth, and don’t get funding.

(This is a generalization, some devs get stuff out on time, but most don’t.)

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Kevin McCaughey

I’m sick of hearing about it to be honest – if it is ever released I an not going to buy it.

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Brian McBride

Is he saying that he’s tired of making deliverables to his investors?

malibutomi
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malibutomi

No he is saying he doesn’t want to make release date estimates when their whole schedule is open to backers so they can see how development progresses anyway.

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Dom Claur

No he is not saying he’s tired of making deliverables to anyone.

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Castagere Shaikura

Crowd funding games was and always will be for suckers to me. I say for all the millions he’s taken and still taking is great for him as all he had to do is promise a game show some half ass work and people gave him money. I don’t feel sorry for any of these dumb asses. He can keep this train running for years and people will still give him money. And if it turns out to be nothing these people are just out of money no one forced them to hand over. Guy should just buy an island and vanish.

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Angel of Def

/laugh.

“Half Ass work”

I want to quantify a couple things. 1) I do not back Star Citizen. 2) I have only “crowd funded” one game, Elite Dangerous. And honestly, that turned out alright, but for me I wasn’t buying it for single player anyway.. those guys I am sure felt cheated. **EDIT** Two! I forgot about CU /laugh. No comment as I haven’t seen the state of that game recently.

But you either have no flipping idea what you are talking about in regards to the work they are putting out, or are being seriously disingenuous just to be a jerk. I am sure any program manager reading this would agree. Most knew this game was going to be buggy, laggy, and under delivered until hardware catches up. His goals for the tech we had/have available at the time he proposed it were never going to hit.

He is a dreamer.

But to call his work half assed is laughable, to say he isn’t busting his ass, or his teams aren’t busting their asses is laughable, to say he is trying to scam people is laughable. There are better scams with less limelight that would bring less scrutiny if he wanted to rip people off. He is just an artist who isn’t being grounded in reality right now. He was always eccentric. He dreams big. How about we let him fail on his merits instead of trying to paint him out to be a dude he isn’t for internet likes.

malibutomi
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malibutomi

That’s why ppl with a brain only put in the amount of money they are ready to lose because there’s always the possibility a project flops.

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shear

Actually, people with brains let other people risk their money…

malibutomi
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malibutomi

Well if 40$ is a “risk” then yeah

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Reselect Name

The only suckers are the ones who dont realize theyre not making a purchase, theyre donating money.

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shear

It’s not a donation, it’s a purchase from a legal point of view.

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Lethality

No :)

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Space Captain Zor

The word you’re looking for is pledge. You pledge money to a project or a purpose.

I pledge money monthly to my local NPR station as well as this website. I pledged money to CIG for them to make SC and SQ42. And as a reward for these pledges I get the two games. I got an NPR mug. And I get a couple of avatar badges.

Get the difference?

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shear

Call it whatever you want to call it man, it’s a preorder for a game and some content for that game. You can get a refund, hence it’s more of a purchase, not a donation.

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Space Captain Zor

You said “from a legal point of view” so let’s stick to that discussion, shall we?

It’s not about what I call it, it’s about what those entities you’re giving money to call it. And they call it a pledge. You can be obtuse and mince words all you like, doesn’t matter. If you’re going to evoke the “legal point of view” you can’t then boil it down to something as simple as: I give you the money you give me the thing.

Being able to get a refund or not is irrelevant as some pledges are circumstantially entitled to one and some aren’t no matter what.

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shear

Actually, it matters little what they call it. It matters as to what effect it has. At least that’s how Common Law would look at it.

It has every element of a contract, an offer, an acceptance and a consideration. This isn’t a donation, you get nothing of value when you donate in return, except the good feels, you are getting a product in return, you are buying it.

Stop it, you are embarrassing yourself now.

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Space Captain Zor

Wrong, it is very much about what they call it when you agree to their terms of service, which you have to do to hand over your pledge monies. And one pledge to one group is obviously not like every other.

So for the sake of massaging your frail ego, let me just explicitly point out that I DO NOT DISAGREE with the general notion that they are SELLING a PREORDER, ok? For all practical intents and purposes of course they are. So is every other freakin game on EA or Kickstarter, etc. I’m not a moron. The end result is exactly a preorder.

But the point is that it doesn’t matter when what you agree to is being called a PLEDGE by Kickstarter, CIG, etc. So if you’re going to get legally technical about it with the OP then how about you stick to the technicalities.

View post on imgur.com

View post on imgur.com

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shear

What the hell man, I never argued about what they called it.

You are the worst type of person when you are wrong you just change the point of the argument. How can anyone have a discussion with you?

Arguing about calling it this or that, I don’t give a fuck what they call it, I’m pointing out that it’s a purchase, a preorder from a legal point of view.

You can’t even keep your arguments straight.

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Space Captain Zor

In point of fact, I have stayed on point the whole time when you’re the one changing the argument. Your very first comment was “it’s a purchase from a legal point of view” and what myself and the OP are trying to debate is that from a legal point of view it matters what it says when you agree to THEIR terms of service and not your fundamental opinion on what you’re doing with your money.

As I said below, you changed this to an argument about fundamentals when it did not start out that way.

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shear

It’s not an opinion it’s a fact, it’s a preorder which is a purchase not a donation for nothing in return and it will be even more apparent ones they launch this into 3.0 which is going to be “akin early access”.

You also agreed to no refund policy and yet when somebody got the law involved CR quickly caved and gave the money back because that ToS is the biggest anti consumer shit I’ve ever seen made to deter gullible people from refunds.

Illegal contracts are non-binding and their ToS are in effect non-binding.

I am sure you will try and tell me how I am still wrong even though you have already agreed that this is a preorder but just can’t admit to yourself that you are simply wrong and you are arguing about something you have no business to be arguing about.

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Space Captain Zor

I am sure you will try and tell me how I am still wrong even though you have already agreed that this is a preorder

Why won’t you actually read what I’m saying? Once again I have not once debated the SEMANTICS with you with regards to what pledging fundamentally gets you when you take into account pledge rewards being the actual product, etc etc. The end result is not in debate. The semantics of what your money gets you is not the debate. The opening exchange of money and if it’s protected as a purchase is the debate. You started your argument with a statement of that legality and now all you’re doing is arguing the semantics of something else.

but just can’t admit to yourself that you are simply wrong and you are arguing about something you have no business to be arguing about.

First off, you really need to deal with this condescending ego.
Secondly, I haven’t said anything inaccurate. Go to the very beginning of this thread, and start over.

Relect says “they’re not making a purchase, they’re donating money”

(Before I go on here, let me be clear. I do not agree with that statement. It’s not a donation. Crowdfunding a software project isn’t a charity. That would be simply crowdfunding a financial goal with no product development.)

Then YOU say “It’s not a donation, it’s a purchase from a legal point of view.”

^^^^^^^^^^ That is where my debate with you began. The legal point of view. The legal interpretation of what giving money through crowdfunding truly means with regards to purchaser protections. So where does that leave us? I guess that means the debate needs to be about whether or not individual crowd funding policies, as written and per platform, are explicitly seen as purchases or not in the eyes of financial institutions and thus actually providing legal consumer protections or not. So, in THAT regard, let me cite this article from 2016.

That’s just one easy example where even PayPal feels strongly enough that a crowdfunding pledge isn’t enough of a “purchase” to deserve purchaser protections anymore. Hell, even their wording says it can be a donation. So it is just not that cut and dry (yet). This whole crowd funding thing is still evolving and each transaction is STILL at the mercy of the platform in which you made it until the FCC gets off their ass and regulates this circus.

Estranged
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Estranged

Yeah, we don’t ask non-profit radio for a refund.

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Space Captain Zor

See above, re: relevancy

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor -SC is selling a product with tiers. Not a charity or a public service. It is basically a preorder. This passed donation status long ago, ethically.

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Space Captain Zor

I’m not debating ethics. I’m discussing what the receiving entity describes it as. You may not agree with what they call it, but it’s what they call it.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor – yeah. I can deem myself Czar of Earth, as well.

Will be making my speech in the morning.

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Space Captain Zor

I don’t even understand what point you’re trying to make. Are you suggesting we should just completely ignore and reject written agreements due to generalized fundamentals of what we’re doing with our money? This whole debate seems to revolve around what we are entitled to after having “spent” or “donated” or “pledged” our money but opinions don’t matter when you’re figuring out what your legal rights are.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor – if written agreements aren’t legally valid…

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Space Captain Zor

If you sign your name on it or click “I agree to the above terms”…

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor – first example. Anyone below the age of 18 can’t enter a legal contract in my state.

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Space Captain Zor

Well in that example the state is invalidating the contract regardless of what the customer has agreed to–such as their age. And I would assume the TOS on most platforms probably have legalese somewhere regarding age and if you sign or agree here or there you’re saying you are at or above that age. In such a situation the idea of the exchange of money being a purchase or a pledge or whatever is moot and the receiving platform wouldn’t be liable or responsible for any conditional refund requests or expectation of product delivery to that person.

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shear

Nonsense. There is a reason why they had to give you a timeframe for which the game has to be released which in in their ToS, they didn’t put it in there for the fun, they had to specify that “this is how long we are legally allowed to keep your money before you can ask for a refund” that’s why it’s in there, they have to deliver the product.

That’s why this move to early access is a snake in a grass for the people, because they will no longer have to give refunds in early access after a specific period of time, so say like steam they will argue “ah you played the game for two hours now so you don’t get a refund”.

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Space Captain Zor

I’m speaking merely of the case where the contract is illegal.

But going back to legal timeframes is just another, and different, discussion on how the whole crowdfunding industry itself is a big broken mess especially because they all revolve technically around “estimates” and not hard dates. There is little to no accountability regarding those timeframes. If their agreement upon taking your money is that they have to a) develop the product, b) provide proof of continued development, c) give estimates for completion, and d) eventually call it finished (when they say it’s finished), and a customer clicks “agree” or signs their name on that… there just isn’t a lot of protections there–but should there be? IMO you should know and understand the implications and risks there when you hand over your money. It’s a gamble. Especially when financial institutions like PayPal explicitly remove their own purchase protections from transactions like that primarily because of that rik. That’s why so many companies using crowdfunding are either taking a lot of heat or earning praise based on how they handle refunds–it really is on them to enforce something for now.

The only cases I’ve seen where refunds go out is when customers fight it individually, the developers flat out offer it unconditionally, or KS(et all) has to give it back after the project is officially announced as abandoned. I honestly don’t know if KS spells out in their own agreements some condition that considers a project dead regardless of what the developers might say and thus entitling a refund.

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shear

“crowdfunding industry itself is a big broken mess especially because they all revolve technically around “estimates””

Yes 100% this is why I do not believe SC is going to be finished as is, it’s not because it’s impossible, given enough money and time it’s possible, I’d say it is, to say otherwise is to basically say “we reached the end in computer science” but you have to consider how long are people going to wait for this before calling it BS and getting refunds. I mean now there is a guy with 45k refunded from SC, apparently, the whole guild gave up on this game, I am not saying this is the end for CiG, but they need that money, maybe not now, but eventually, right? So they have to scale the development down, and then down more and more and you will end up with a shell of what it’s supposed to be.

I don’t know how this could be better expect maybe that perhaps AAA titles are not meant to be made on this type of funding.

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Space Captain Zor

Yep I saw that about the $45k refund. But at the moment they’re pulling in >$1 million per month, sometimes by quite a bit more, so $45k may not make that big of an impact in the long run. The “big if” is how well they have or haven’t managed all the money. Sure, there are experienced people who can make all the educated assumptions on their burn rate that they want to, but end of the day only CIG really knows for sure. And if anyone from CIG is talking, no one has been willing to quote them or give them up yet.

And yeah, a big unknown is just how long a majority of people are willing to wait. That’s part of the gamble CIG took. Myself, I still have a lot of patience left in me and I feel that I’m part of the silent majority. I don’t feel the way some do–as if I’m being lied to or betrayed. Any money I put in to this is disposable and if its gone its gone. I was responsible with it.

I think AAA titles still have a place in this funding model but the consumer side of the industry has a lot of maturing to do. The development of Star Citizen is happening no different from any other large game (or small, for that matter). All this mismanagement and the delays would have happened behind closed doors as well–as it did with CR’s previous titles. The difference is how public it all is now.

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shear

See the reason I think that they haven’t done a good job with the money management is the fact that they are very aggressive in their sales, hear me out here, they are adding more and more ships, but a good chunk of them are nothing more than a concept, and bunch of them that have already been sold to people have not been made. Some are still not flyable or even hanger ready right, so why would they add more and more work for themselves when there is so much left just on the basic functionality of the game? That just makes very little sense to me, they can always do this post launch. Unless they really need the money.

See I don’t know, missing a deadline here and there is fine, I fully expect that from a big game like that, especially when it’s quite impressive what they want to achieve, but missing the majority of them and constantly hiding behind the same excuse, well that’s where I don’t believe them. Game development has to be hard and tedious and an ocean of unknowns sometimes, but people get fired and studios get closed for missed deadlines, CiG has no accountability to anyone if they miss it “ah well” and their funding doesn’t even slow down. I know that I work much better under pressure, and I think CiG is starting to feel the pressure. Which in my opinion is pretty good. You might see something out of them sooner rather than later now.

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Space Captain Zor

I know in the past they’ve said ship development is dictated by their individual needs in SQ42 first, SC PU second. And in cases where a ship is specialized for a particular gameplay loop (mining, freight, exploration, salvage, etc) then priority of the ship development lines up with development of the associated game system.

That’s why ships like Carrack and Banu Merch are so far down on the totem pole–not because they couldn’t churn them out if they wanted to, the priority just isn’t there yet. How they prioritize other ships probably has more than a little bit to do with how many backers own them, I’m sure. But end of the day I don’t feel like they’ve held up developing a ship that NEEDS to be in for the sake of getting a new one up for sale. That, and, it’s pretty easy to see how a ship concept team could work fairly independently of everyone else despite game system progress. You don’t have to stop a Ryan Church from drawing ships for anything and they’ve proven that’s all they need to sell one.

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shear

Doesn’t mean shit if it’s illegal as to what they ask of you, literally “contract law 101”

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Space Captain Zor

So you’re saying Kickstarter is completely illegal?

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shear

We were talking about CiG’s ToS not KS ToS and if you read KS ToS you’d know this isn’t a “give us money and we maybe will give you something back in return” they have to deliver.

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Space Captain Zor

You have not once specified that, actually. And you had at least one occasion above where I cite BOTH entities in which you could have been more specific if you needed or wanted to.

When have I even said anything at all about whether or not they have to deliver a product from EITHER ToS?? Totally not the scope of this debate.

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shear

Who’s ToS are you signing when you go onto CiGs page? The answer to that will probably give you a hint of who’s ToS I am talking about.

Because even on KS it’s not simply a donation, sure lower tear ones are if the thing you get in return is ” A thank you from us for supporting us” but at the higher tiers where it’s “You will get a game and this ship” they have to actually deliver that to you or give you your money back. If this was a donation, they wouldn’t have to give anything back to you, unless they felt nice that day.

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Space Captain Zor

Again, you weren’t being that specific. If you want to debate something, be specific. Both the KS and CIG campaigns offer rewards including the game and ships. And again, both times they call it a pledge.

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shear

Yeah, you are right, even KS doesn’t call it a donation.

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shear

Even if it was valid, you can cancel your pre-order at any time before the game is out, same logic would apply here.

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shear

Do you have a legal right to a refund after any purchase in SC except the subscription? Yes, you do, hence it is not a donation.

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shear

We are not talking about who calls what, we are talking about what that represents, and what it represents is a purchase, plain and simple.

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Dom Claur

Telling it is a purchase is wrong. it is not, legally wrong. You interpret as you want, it is not a purchase.

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shear

I know it is not legally wrong. “It is not, legally wrong”. If a judge ever had to make a call in this situation he would deem it a purchase, see I know this because I know a little bit about this topic, but you can keep huffing and puffing.

Also, Joe Blobers, when you make a new account you need to change the way you talk too because after seeing you here for a month, it’s quite easy to see the pattern of the same nonsense and broken English.

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Joe Blobers

I never hide behind nobody you should know that. Do you think I am afraid to make 20 more comments in a thread if I want to? :)

To be clear… I do not really care about the pledge/not pledge debat. Still it can be entertaining depending with who you exchange with. So go ahead with a purchase if you like it :)

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Space Captain Zor

Go re-read your first reply to this thread then.

Reselect calls it a donation
You call it a purchase.

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shear

You are spot on buddy, they call it a pledge, they can call it a donation, but under that label, it’s a fucking preorder, which is a purchase, so what is your issue here?

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Space Captain Zor

The issue is you chose to argue how a term is taken legally, which is technicality. But then you swung your argument to fundamentals, which is not what this is about.

Fundamentally we already all agree on the end result of the money changing hands, so you can get off that.

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shear

I don’t understand you at all man, this is not a donation it is more of a purchase from a legal point of view, that is all I have said. So a “pledge” when you break it down, as to what effect it has, it is essentially a pre-order.

You give them money and you get a promise of a game and a ship and whatever else they are selling if you do not get that thing you are entitled to a refund. It is not a donation, it’s that simple, now you and CiG can call it whatever you want to call it, but if you asked for your money back their ToS won’t save them as has been seen before.

This will change with early access, because he will treat that as a soft launch, and then you are stuck with it forever.

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Dom Claur

The issue is that you keep repeating the same false information which is an opinion. You are wrong.

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Melissa McDonald

I wonder why nobody talks about how crappy and disappointing and B-class STAR MARINE is? That’s a very lame FPS compared to Battlefield, Call of Duty, Halo, etc.

So it’s not like everything they do is great.

malibutomi
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malibutomi

A shooter which is just a small part of a big game, and is in pre-alpha phase is not as good as a finished full on fps shooter game which is part of a franchise polished for years? Shocking.

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zeko_rena

Even Pong is a better FPS than Call of Duty.

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Tufao

It`s just the first version released. It will be better than any other. Just wait a few more decades.

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Joe Blobers

Probably because it was not intented to compete with 10 years old fully oriented pure FPS franchise but add a FPS component to Star Citizen?

Star Marine is just there to tests the FPS part of Star Citizen like Arena Commander is used to test ships combat.
Star Marine could become the next COD or BF… only by dedicating many ressources.. which they do not have today to go further down the pure FPS path. Lately, a few people were still asking for 3.0 and SQ42 :)

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edangerous

But it was, CR wanted it be far better than anything out there https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/star-marine-interview-with-chris-roberts

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Lethality

No.

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Dom Claur

You should read all article and avoid to cherry peak what please you edandrous.

Robert’s said [“It’s not [a] Call of Duty or Battlefield imitation,” Roberts tells Red Bull]
SC is the single space game project whith such level of FPS. This is not a dedicated FPS.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

The real reason Chris is fed up is due to something he explained to Eurogamer 17 years ago.

“…Taking three and a half to four years to build a massive title just seems like a huge amount of effort….”

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/article_29857

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Annoyed badger

I dont know whats worse, that he may believe this bullshit he keeps spewing, or that he may not.

Its increasingly clear CR is not capable of project management at all, and this has worrying signs of other projects that never get realised, that grow and grow and lose focus until they just peter out.

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Roger Melly

The most striking thing about what you see in these forums is how few people have any faith in Star Citizen’s development anymore .

Valen Sinclair
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Valen Sinclair

As an original backer I lost faith LONG ago. I’m not a koolaid drinker. I funded the KS for a certain game. That game doesn’t exist and what there is is years late. Is it any wonder?

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Tufao

They were warned.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”The most striking thing about what you see in these forums is how few people”

How many Million$ do represent the few guys (me included) in this comment section… all together… so far 221 comments made by +50 individual with mixed position (pro or con)….

Always the same speech. “People”….= 0.000008 % out of 600.000 :)

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Roger Melly

Well given you and a handful of other backers flood any Star Citizen article with positive comments I would hardly say that proves anything .

I would say taking that into consideration there are far more people who have their doubts about what is going on development of this game than share your rose colored view of it .

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Dom Claur

Having positives or neutral threads prove anything, but an handful of immature guys witth zero or poor educattion about game development loop is fine. Good catch. Publishers are really safe with people crying fro more same copy/past games year after year.

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Roger Melly

I don’t see them as immature or poorly educated they are just expressing an opinion in the same way you and I are .

( also it might be best to check for typos/spelling mistakes before calling others poorly educated ) .

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

sorry i’m late

this is what came to mind reading this article:

this is the most out of touch CR has been since his millions of polys statement 5 years ago. this is sillier than when he claimed they’d delivered 2/3 promised parts of the game to escapist in 2015.

i doubt we’ll see 3.0 before xmas at this point if not next year sometime.

and really if cr wasn’t outright lying to us on stage at gamescom then they should deploy without the delta patcher, as they have no history or worrying about bandwidth/CDN costs to begin with (long before their sweetheard AWS deal with amazon) or respecting backer/free trial player bandwidth/data caps.

and let’s be real, delta patcher doesn’t mean they are gonna start patching weekly or even monthly even once that issue is solved.

instead they’d rather remove player agency in discovering the small neat things, and turn them into not so neat and boring and annoying things to argue about becuase they shou;ld be left to players to discover and not prattled on about in half hour blocks without saying much at all and avoidign the elephant in the room that is wtf is going on with this delayed milestone.

which they’ve backed themselves into a corner by commiting to all these alrady too long videos of a set length to be filmed and posted on set days every single week no matter what. at some point it’s no longer endearing especially when they actively avoid disclosing just wtf is going on with this project in them that convinces only the most ardent and ignorant and unware fanboys of their so called open development meme. but here’s another concept ship sale, where the price is based on some role play lore concept of luxury instead of being priced based on similarly specced ships. and in which teh initial marketting of said ship is immidiately contradicted in one of these weekly video spam interviews they do as if to actively denegrate people who had already bought the ship.

but hey, this game was supposed to be built faster cheaper and more profitably than any publisher could do. and with greater accountability to backers than publishers or investors demanded.

right?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”this game was supposed to be built faster cheaper and more profitably than any publisher could do. and with greater accountability to backers than publishers or investors demanded.”

Wrong.

– profitable was used to say 1$ to publishers = x more to backers because of no huge middleman structure, marketing and share older.
– Greater accountability: transparency… in the limit of what any CEO will share, IE, no $ usage details but weekly update, insight development information and estimated date.

You turns words in a meaning they never had.

Estranged
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Estranged

Joe – Chris said every $1 given to him is worth $3 to a publisher, due to efficiency. I call BS.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you’re turning his very clear words into meanings they NEVER had.

lmao. you are out of this world man.

edangerous
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edangerous

Joe Blobers permanently drunk on the kool-aid.

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Melissa McDonald

Where was that video back when I used to smoke weed? LOL

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Roger Melly

shhh you’ll give Chris Robert’s ideas after pooping in the game he’ll want to put weed smoking in it too .

xpsync
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xpsync

Awesome.

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Reselect Name

Doesn’t the game continually come out with updates?

So the problem is the updates don’t come out fast enough?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Reselect Name:”Doesn’t the game continually come out with updates?”

Yes. exactly the point. Those complaining about 3.0 “delay” hust forget to say that 3.0 depicted end of Nov 2016 and current 3.0 is day and night…. several patch delivered since January and 3.0 estimated in June… that moved to October.
3.0 is so huge compared to others patch that it is easily equal to several… but some love to not care about patch contents… this is so convenient :)
For them carrying a luggage of 10 kg is equal to 100kg… until they try to move it along by themself to the carrier :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

Doesn’t the game continually come out with updates?

the last “major” update was over a year ago and was a placeholder fork off an older build than what 3.0 is forked off of to satiate backers untill 3.0 came out which at the time was due xmas last year. there’s been 3 minor updates since 2.6 was deployed largely tiny low effort balance patches which were accompanied by a statement on how that balancing went by a dev: “balancing an alpha is a waste of time”

so no it doesn’t continually come out with updates.

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Reselect Name

Meh. Just doesn’t bother me.

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Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

You are doing this all wrong, you are supposed to be losing your mind at this point and flipping out.

Where is your self entitlement, are you not going to tell people how you could be doing a better job and would have the game released by now with even more than CR promised?

Are you not going to tell people what to do with the money they earn themselves?

Wait are you an alien? :)

Yangers
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Kickstarter Donor
Yangers

LOL.

That’s it. I’m putting my money on the table. REAL aliens will show up before this game does.

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

Spoilers: They’ll actually show up with the finished Star Citizen build. They’ll have built it in a weekend because science.

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Roger Melly

Well I did see an article where NASA officials claimed that they thought they would have definitive evidence of alien life within 10-20 years so you may be right . lol

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primal

real aliens have been here for a long time. civilisations thousands of years ago had more advanced techniques of doing stuff than us today

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kidwithknife

Insert meme here.

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Melissa McDonald

Discovering that the Egyptians knew how to electroplate gold is a long way from silicon chip development and nanometer processes. But I would love to hear about those more advanced techniques.

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Would like to see a group of 1st worlders build the pyramids without modern tools.

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Roger Melly

There are plenty of articles and videos on youtube that not only explain it but demonstrate how could have been done . All without modern tools or alien help .

This is an attitude I will never understand in the internet we have the access to the greatest compilation of human knowledge in history and yet people like you don’t use it when it comes to something like this to find out how it could be done .

Obviously the internet does have a lot of bulls~*t on it too but someone with a little common sense and intelligence can work out which websites are based on scientific principles and which are not .

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Roger – “people like you”

Oh, piss off!

They used slaves. That is the big secret. The joke is modern people wouldn’t be willing to work so hard.

People like me. Wow, just wow.

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shear

Hell yeah, they did, thousands of slaves, and yeah I wouldn’t want to work like that, I’d work with a pen in my hand, hell pulling all them rocks :DDD, no thank you.

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

However…

Why does it make some people so uncomfortable to discuss the possibility of life outside this planet? The very people that live off science fiction and space games? I can’t reject the possibility and be open intellectually, in my opinion.

We are the only special random occurrence!

lulz

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shear

Probability alone would dictate that there is absolutely no chance that humanity is alone in the universe.

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

shear – we also limit our scope to looking for planets with water, etc. Other life might be able to tolerate extreme cold/heat and thrive on chemical acid.

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shear

I think that’s the real skill, to be able to see past bullshit. :D

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

shear – everyone is FOS, the world runs on bullshit. Everything would collapse without it. +1 to George Carlin

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

all you need is to sub to teh history channel and h2 for their ancient aliens segments and the one about geological w/e thing that guy claims to be. XD

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Roger Melly

You really should stop watching pseudo scientific documentaries about ancient aliens . They are rotting your brain mate .

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

this reply explains alot.

Tamanous
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Tamanous

LOL

wat?

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kelvar

Accountability is also “just a label”. I work in software development and if I told stakeholders I was sick of giving estimates while happily getting paid with their money I’d probably lose my job.

Here’s the thing – these aren’t “just fans” they are your stakeholders who have paid for a product with a plan and deliverables. It’s not a charity they are contributing to for you to pursue your hobby.

These are people who are investing in your product and are expecting a return, or, at the very least, paying customers who would like a timeline for when the product they purchased is going to be delivered.

I know that may be galling or inconvenient for you but the fact of the matter is you took their money and so, yes, you literally owe them answers.

Or are customers, stakeholders, and such just labels man and we, should like, all just hang out and love each other and take it as it comes…man.

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primal

well no were not stakeholders at all. they dont own any part of the game therefore roberts technically doesnt have to give anything to us.

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Roger Melly

“roberts technically doesnt have to give anything to us”

And doesn’t have to actually release the game lol

PT Barnum would have loved you .

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

2013: we have to be even more accountable to backers than we would a publisher or investors – CR

2017: i’m sick of backers trying to hold us accountable – cr

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay Plus”i’m sick of backers trying to hold us accountable”

…. nice twist.. or lie as you want. It is nowhere what CR said :)

But your reputation to write words out of mouth of people who never said them or twist meaning of a sentence is proverbial :)

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

This is exactly what CR meant – nuance of the English language. Context.

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Dom Claur

So Estranged you are now reading in Chris Roberts’mind? Nuance of a language does not mean you can interpret it at your leisure.

You probably missed also the 2and half pages where CR explained all what done to make SC a reality, game development and hiring of more staff, +40 since January and +416 since January 2013

I see no nuance of language about reality of actions done by CIG.

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Dom – he is tired of being called out for not meeting expectations, dates he gave himself. Those are his words. He is basically playing a game with every backer – comparing this project to an early access. This buys him more time and creates a nice legal shield.

An old American saying, “don’t piss down my back and tell me it is raining”…

By the way, the number of employees just adds to my concerns. Feature bloat, employee bloat, overhead bloat. Bloated.

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Dom Claur

I understand this is your opinion. I pick your old American saying, “don’t piss down my back and tell me it is rainin” for what it is or at least another vision. This apply to “naysayers who are pissing down backers back and pretend it is raining”

The game CIG is playing is to catch up with bugs to release 3.0 while working on next patch and SQ42.
Having+400 employees does not deter anyone to deliver, quite the very opposite.

Estranged
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Estranged

Dom – in business, growing too quickly can make it unmanageable and create an unbearable financial stress.

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shear

I have a feeling you’re a business student? ;D

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Shear – it is possible that my undergraduate business degree influences my thinking. Yes. 😀

The classic case study of a business drowning from overgrowth seems possible here – Chris is fortunate to have a group of followers that are willing to overlook this issue.

No worries, the game will be made, even if a publisher has to rescue him again.

If I ran a huge software company, would be watching this closely.

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shear

This whole thing is interesting to me from a legal perspective because I do not believe he has enough money left to deliver the game as promised, and I am wondering what will happen now, will he look for outside investors? Will he crash and burn? This could be a very interesting judgement one day to set president as to how KS should work.

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Space Captain Zor

So.. if I don’t just blindly agree or confirm/echo that CR is full of shit and scamming everyone then I’m an idiot and/or fanboy and/or SC white knight and/or delusional? How’s the air up there, really?

Anyway… a game with an expectedly long development cycle has delays. Whoop de doo. Sky is falling… oh the huge manatee…

The snark below of comments like how dare we want to know an estimate is so full of bs it makes me sick. Of course we should want estimates and of course they should probably give them even if there is nothing in it for them to do so. And of course estimates aren’t ever going to actually be regarded as estimates anymore because when is that sexy or sensational. Estimates must be treated as etched in stone so that a) when they’re missed the community has a collective thing to be wholly pissed off about and can flap their arms and lips together in communal rage and confirmation bias. And you snark about him not wanting to give estimates? Who the FUCK in their right mind would WANT to give the internet estimates in game development!? It’s a completely lose-lose situation. And yet crowdfunding has the built-in requirement to keep them coming…

Let’s maybe behave as if this game hasn’t even been in development for 10 years yet, since, you know.. it hasn’t. And there are a number of successful games that HAVE taken that long or longer to make. But that rationality is so boring I guess…

Are so many of you really just going to continue to carry on as if CIG isn’t allowed to spend precisely as long to make this game as they feel is needed and as long as they have money to do so because you’re mad or tired of waiting or… whatever? Congratulations on not understanding crowdfunding at all. That’s simply the right they have, as well as all other crowdfunded projects, and there’s fuck all any amount of e-peen internet elitism can do to change it.

I’m gonna start crowd funding some hot air balloons…

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McGuffn

“So.. if I don’t just blindly agree or confirm/echo that CR is full of shit and scamming everyone then I’m an idiot and/or fanboy and/or SC white knight and/or delusional? ”

It’s been that way for years. You can say something like “I think you should stop at red lights” and people will scream at you.

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Utakata

It’s appears most of the opinions here in the tl,dr form are put up or shut up, Mr. Roberts. Perhaps your PR need to take that in consideration. O.o

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

Mana – he really is sorta crazy. History of creating unrealistic expectations and then gets pissed when he is called out on it!

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Koshelkin

They should have gone silent a while ago and work on the game and only very sporadically release updates. Big games tease their game at a couple of shows(E³, Pax) and that’s it. They had do subscriber programs and news, though, had to constantly promise new ships and features and put themselves under unnecessary additional strain. It’s really on them. They should have finalized their project schedule a long time ago.

Even with all the money they have available if Roberts thinks he can just throw people at it until it’s done the project will just implode after release.

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Armsman

IF CIG did what you suggest at this point – it would just provide confirmation to everyone who thinks it’s vaporware/a scam. IE:

“Oh, now they just stopped talking or really showing anything – yep, he’s taking the money and running at this point.”
^^^
I sure everyone at CIG realizes how bad the idea of: “Lets show everyone how PC game development works – front to back…” has more negatives then positives at this point because honestly – in the end, gamers don’t care “How the sausage is made” – they just care about how the game plays and their biggest concern: “Was it worth the money paid/time spent playing.

I do have to say though – If they didn’t want to give time estimates; they doing ‘open development’ to the degree they have been was an idea Chris Roberts should never have entertained. He was very naive to think a lot of gamers would really be interested in the true minutiae and problems associated complex game development and further that they would be asking for (or demanding) realistic estimates at some point.

Bit yeah, at this point “Going dark” would kill the project because further crowd funding would dry up fast if the flow of development info stopped.

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Koshelkin

That’s why I said “a while ago”.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

weekly videos where they try to fill a half hour with blathering about minor mechanics that should be left up to the player to discover for themselves certainly doesn’t help the perceptions people have about the game.

if anything it makes them come off as exceedingly desperate to disprove those perceptions when they’ve got nothing of substance with which to do so.

if cig ever offered truly open development i’m sure gamers would be interested and follow along patiently and understandingly like they do with a number of other game projects that actually offer those things. which CIG does not nor has ever offered those things. it’s just cynical and crass marketting to fill multiple half hour video time slots every week without fail even without anything to say that they are willing to share with us.

the fact that this week’s atv was a half hour blathering about stamina and environment conditional procs dressed up as something more with all of 2 minutes of nothing devoted to what is holding up 3.0 shows they really do need to change course on their marketting and learn to stfu or say something of substance.

which for 4 years now their weekly comms since wingman have been largely hot air drivel and bullshit.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Koshelin:”They should have finalized their project schedule a long time ago.”

They did. this is called design phase and was done in 2012… Then come the unprecedented support and approved strech goals. Since end of 2014 CIG stopped to add new ones and they are working to create a sizable company able to handle backers expectation plus game engine and pipelines.

Read the Eurogamers article. Funding process is very well explained. Ships = salaries. As simple as that.

You can’t make 2 triple-A, even by sharing assets, with 12 guys in a garage. Some pretend to get it 3 years ago… that is probably possible in dreamland where developers are not paid and assets are created directly from CR’s mind to 3.0 patch… but dreamland does not exist so we have to do with reality.

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Koshelkin

No they didn’t. They keep shoving new features into an already bloated title and miss deadline after deadline.

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Joe Blobers

Koshelkin… there is no deadline… you mislead yourself :)

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Armsman

No they didn’t. They keep shoving new features into an already bloated title and miss deadline after deadline.

^^^
So, yeah, SC is already behaving like a released/live MMO — got it. ;)

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Space Captain Zor

Are kidding? Do you not see what the internet does to crowd funded projects that go dark? They can’t go dark and they can’t miss estimates. Because logic.

deekay_plus
Reader
deekay_plus

seems the majority of crowdfunded games don’t get this level of shit storms while reserving communications to legitimately useful communications with high signal strength. as opposed to commiting themselves to multiple too long videos every single week even when they have nothing of merit to say at all (that they are willing to say which they regularly do not disclose things and are forgiven for that and even defended on it by fanboys).

crowfall and CU are both delayed and not facing the level of qq from their own backers because they are forthcoming well in advance about delays and what is causing them in a frank and honest way. something CIG refuses to do for years now. instead choosing to only talk about positive things on the horizon and always out of reach until deadlines woosh by and they are forced to talk about their challenges only after the fact and only in limited and still as positively spun fashion as possible.

the only crowdfunded game that earns this much qq is star citizen, and CIG and CR are the chief architects of that qq. and even then the QQ is decidedly muted compared to other qq fests for other games which have done much less worse than what CIG continues to do in terms of communication deploying and selling to their customers.

this isn’t some product of erstwhile hate machines. if anything the video game hate machine trolls have largely ignored star citizen in favour of games like GTAO and dayz. it’s entirely a product of CIG and their fanboy’s own ongoing efforts.

and articles like this with this attitiude of spoiled brattiness and entitlement to customer spending only adds fuel to that fire.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”only adds fuel to that fire.”

Yes we know, the number of yours comments, putting words in people mouth they never said, ATV’s every week that mean nothing to you, Burndow reports and details that are not informative enough… whateveer CIG do is not what you are looking for… We got it Deekay. You want 3.0 and please nobody talk about game development, bugs reports or ATV’s.. this is all bullshit: you want 3.0 NOW…

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Space Captain Zor

Nothing you just said justifies the problems I have with what’s going on. No one even remotely paying attention for the last 5 years is going to argue that their communication hasn’t largely sucked, because it has, but most people who just come to the comments to bitch and moan and flap their e-peen on the desk never bother to simply stay on point and remain concise about that criticism. It all gets weighed down and bloated with frivolous hyperbole and hot air and completely bullshit claims that can’t be backed up, all for the sake of wanting to look tough and cool on the internet. There may be people who are fed up with watching CIG develop these games but I for one am fed up with the community itself. I just cannot believe how much bias-fueled irrationality there is. And yeah, I realize that’s not an exclusive problem to just this game or this industry.

[…]forthcoming well in advance about delays and what is causing them in a frank and honest way

It may not have been around for a relatively long time but that insane production schedule they have kept up week after week tells the story of where delays are coming from. But of course people don’t want to bother looking because it’s wordy as all hell.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the production schedule is not frank or forthcoming.

if anything if we went by their production schedule things looked on track for mid summer deployment months ago.

but that was an erroneous interpretation of the production schedule.

and chris roberts on stage at gamescom claimed it was only the delta launcher that was holding it back which has never been mentioned in that schedule.

so which is telling the truth? CR? or the schedule? who are we to believe here?

we can’t reasonably say we know where the delays are coming from based on CIG’s comms about them because they contradict themselves on a regular basis.

and releasing the schedule late friday night with nope not gonna deploy to evocati again this week an hour ago! is not particularly useful communication nor forth coming.

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Joe Blobers

Deekay plus do you read the coming patch details up to 4.0? This is information at a precise date with no guaranty they will stricly follow this order. Features for 3.3 could come in 3.1 and the other way around. Delta patcher was announced way ago.. they add it… Damned CIG is still wrong… they did not informed Deekay :)

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Blue touchpaper

I think what we are witnessing is the nervous breakdown of Chris Roberts . I think he started out with the best of intentions but all the stretch goals exceeded his teams ability to deliver them and he knows it and that is starting to affect his mental health .

God knows where this will all end .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Blue Touchpaper:” but all the stretch goals exceeded his teams”

Strech goals are stopped since end of 2014. Take the time to compare what is delivered (including upcoming 3.0) vs strech goals vs what was said about some to be delivered only after release and you realize that most of them are either done or faisable by end of 2018.

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Roger Melly

You say the upcoming 3.0 but I see it as the much delayed 3.0 .

Also why bother having stretch goals if they are not intended to be delivered until after release would it not have been better in just getting a finished base product out first like every other mmo developer on the planet .

I don’t there is any real chance that Star Citizen will release in 2018 and I wouldn’t be surprised if 3.0 doesn’t release before the end of this year .

In fact I think there is a good chance the single player game SQ42 may be the only thing ever released under Roberts leadership because to be honest I don’t think it will be very long before he has to step down ( or step back at least ) for health reasons . The man does not look or sound well .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”if they are not intended to be delivered until after release would it not have been better in just getting a finished base product ”

You will noticed that some strech goals are part of the core product and some are intented, partially or totally, to be provided After game release. That is planned since years that way.

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sizer99

If it even looked like they were working towards a stable product release date I think there’d be a lot less heat.

Instead they just randomly keep cramming in more crap like Faceware, which is a common tactic on projects (software and otherwise) that you don’t actually want to deliver. New features always look like progress and give you an excuse why it’s not done yet, and meanwhile you’re building up gigantic technical debt.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Sizer99:”randomly keep cramming in more crap like Faceware”

Nothing to do with “ramdom” but just… what was said in 2013. CIG with Faceware is just providing what they talked about (damned, they are delivering what they promised…) and in a more refine version that what was available 4 years ago.

For those not caring about face expression, the best of Faceware is TrackIR like technology… which is almost mandatory for a “simulation”.
Play F1, Arma 3, War Thunder with TrackIR… you will never play them again without it!

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sizer99

I’m more concerned that at this rate I’m never going to get to play Star Citizen WITH it. This is not core game tech, it’s nice(?) cosmetic frippery. I backed for Squadron 42, I just want my single player Wing Commander game without seeing some kid screaming at me about how he’s f@#$ing my mom with perfect replication of how his shrill little piehole is undulating like an antlion’s maw.

I can see how this would be nice for some people, but get the game and all the various components working first, then you can heap on all the superflous frosting you want.

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zeko_rena

“I just want my single player Wing Commander game without seeing some kid screaming at me about how he’s f@#$ing my mom with perfect replication of how his shrill little piehole is undulating like an antlion’s maw.”

Best thing I have read in a long time lol

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Joe Blobers

Quote Sizer 99:”without seeing some kid screaming at me”

It was said that this feature is optionnal (facial expression). You want to play your refreshed version of Wing Commander? Fine TrakIR like function are a must… And it comes at no cost as Faceware is developed for SC but can be used easlily by SC because all mocap done can use it.
This is straight forward, not like adding a useless feature that require years of internal development. You got TrackIR like.. for free.
If you have a chance to test a real trackIR, go ahead, you will never come back. You test it… you want it :)

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Melissa McDonald

You’ve got to be British… surely…

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thirtymil

“Just gonna put the SC article up…”

SC.jpg
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Fervor Bliss

Putting melted Velveeta on chips does not make you a great chef.
Collecting 160 million from people does not make you a game developer.

veldara
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veldara

This project had the best of intentions and I firmly believe that Chris Roberts still has every purpose to launch it at some point. The question will be at what state will the game be in. But that’s not the reason I’m posting, I’m not here to defend or attack Roberts here, though I will say that he’s a great developer, but I will put into question his business skills. Much like Keiji Inafune and how he ran the development of Mighty No 9, there’s a reason why we need the men and women in business suits and game creators should focus on game creating.

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Joe Blobers

To Veldara. Good point. CR is not alone, far to be. Season seniors developers are making this team a solid one.

It is no coincidence that well known Senior Producer (Production Manager in Rockstar for GTA V and Producer in Blizzard for WoW) Dennis Crow joined CIG.

A very good signal. Such profil never jump on project that does not have a clear positive future:)

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Roger Melly

Or maybe they offered him a lot of money to join the project and he thought why the hell not if it crashes and burns I can take the money and run .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly: “I can take the money and run”

This is option is probably much more realistic for sure…. Or he signed CIG contract by mistake and now have to go to work with them. This one sounds even more foreseeable :)

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rafterman

In other news, Star Citizen backers are ‘fed up’ with Chris Roberts.

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dsmart

I just stopped by to say I freaking called it.

About a year ago in July 2016, when I wrote that he couldn’t develop the game pitched, and that he was going to dump it as per releasing an MVP, some people thought I was just off my meds.

From $160m crowd-funded game, to an Early Access MVP with no promises of delivery.

You were warned.

I like how he says the public schedule is the internal one. I guess 3.0 did come out in 2016.

I am also thrilled to see that he is still reading my articles because I was the first and only person to leak that the internal and public schedules were different. And the fact that he even mentions it – and having lied consistently about this project since the start – proves that I’m right, and that he’s lying about it.

As I wrote a few days ago, now that they have started yet another shell company in the UK and which is no doubt designed to shield the IP from impending and/or future litigation, anyone giving money to this project now, is just funding an exit strategy.

“…and, awh, wuh… we’ll have what will sort of determine a sort of… MINIMUM VIABLE PRODUCT FEATURE LIST for what you would call STAR CITIZEN the COMMERCIAL RELEASE, which is basically when you say, “OK! Ah, we’ve gotten to this point and we’ve still got plans to add a lot more COOL STUFF and MORE CONTENT and MORE FUNCTIONALITY and MORE FEATURES”, which by the way includes some of… the LATER STRETCH GOALS we have cos not all of that’s meant to be for ABSOLUTELY RIGHT HERE, on the commercial release…“Chris Roberts, April 18, 2016

I hope you guys enjoy your $160m MVP. The project is dead. He got rich from gamers. The End.

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Simon Morris

some people thought I was just off my meds.

I think this is the first time you’ve admitted you are on medication!. Good for you Derek!, I am glad you finally decided to get help with your Star Citizen persecution complex.
Remember!, finish the course and stay true. Good for you Kid! – best of luck and with your ‘Line of Defence’ project!. How’s that coming along by the way?.

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There is only one thing that needs to be said about Derek Smart.

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Nathan Aldana

Oh look, its Derek Smart trying to pretend he’s any more virtuous or worthy of respect than Chris Roberts, how shocking.

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Dom Claur

If you look to alternate opinion, about who is Dsmart and why his behavior against CR just have a look to this link: https://sctrollsdump.wordpress.com/about-trolls/

Valen Sinclair
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Valen Sinclair

This guy again, LOL… Not that I disagree with most of your rantings, but you seem unhealthily obsessed about this Derek.

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Armsman

Projection is a bitch eh, Darek?

It’s pretty obvious Chris has put the money he’s gotten to date into his company and the Star Citizen project. But anyone who knows your ‘game development’ history also knows if a group of people were dumb enough to give you that level of funding for a project of yours – they’d get an 8-bit side-scroller that didn’t work as advertised – and you’d be gone with the rest of the cash sipping margaritas.

I mean hell your current ‘game’ LoD (aka Loads of Douche-baggery) is going on what? It’s ninth year of development and fifth year of steam early access. maybe if you used your development PC to work on the game instead of spamming twitter with your nonsense, you’d actually be able to release something.

It will be really interesting to see what happens if Twitter ever goes under – because then you’d have nothing to do all day anymore. And don’t reply with – “I’ll go back to making games because it’s obvious you’ve never delivered a finished/playable game your entire career; as your infamous and bug ridden Battle Cruiser 3000 AD was actually finished by the people at Take Two Interactive.

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Roger Melly

Backers receive no annual financial reports so I would say it is not obvious at all as to where the money is going .

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Dom Claur

The fact CIG hired +40 developers since January and well known producer from GTA5 team plus 2 M$ per month is anything but a sign of very good financial situation.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS:”He got rich from gamers.”

For a guy who pretend to be a master of everything, including Finance, the world are still waiting the prophecy of collapse to happen, a SURE thing as per yourself (90 days top!)…the end with zero alternative…. Backers are doomed for sure, no option B :)

And now “He got rich from gamers”… prove that beside trying to create havoc inside SC community to hurt CR… you have no clue about what you are talking about… or more precisely, keep trying to obfuscate random Readers that still do not know you.

The big money is coming… after release not before. Game engine and pipelines uptodate, SQ42 and Star Citizen released and the cash machine start to take speed. For the best of players as cash equal to more contents… exactly what MMO are supposed to be.
The big $ are coming after, proved years after years:

Here are the numbers about MMO: “Free to play MMOs have 92% of the playerbase and 87% of the revenue of the entire MMO market. 18.6 Billions $ in 2016”

CIG is not F2P as the crowdfunded model is there to support game development… However CIG situation is even better than true F2P games, which have to rely to private investor/publishers to be created… with shareholders constraint (deliver it whatever the status, profit first).

Backers get 2 Triple-A for the price of one.
CIG can create 2 Triple-A with limited private investors and then switch to micro-transactions, DLC’s model after release.
If you believe a project who have gathered 160M$ is dead you are just proving again your cosmic incompetence :)
This project is litteraly Financially umbreakable… Patch bringing core game mechanisms are coming with 3.0 and remaining 4 patch in 2018…. bringing each time more new Bachers.

Your campaing failed DS… as usual :)

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Roger Melly

“Backers get 2 Triple-A for the price of one”

What you mean is backers get the promise of two games for the price of one . Neither has been released and nor do we know they will be Triple A quality games if and when they do release .

“however CIG situation is even better than true F2P games”

That also remains to be seen because CIG are selling ships that could arguably give an advantage in a pvp situation and if that is the case the game would certainly fit into my personal definition of pay to win .

“which have to rely to private investor/publishers to be created… with shareholders constraint ”

Which may explain why the development is so shambolic because CIG have no one to answer to other than a loyal fanbase to get a polished released product out .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger Melly:”What you mean is backers get the promise of two games”

… Which is the principle of all crowdfunded project.

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Melissa McDonald

Well, one thing is for sure: Star Marine is a B-class, bog standard FPS that is utter crap compared to the Noun of Noun series, Battlefield, or Halo series games. They make it look extremely poor in comparison.

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Armsman

Well, one thing is for sure: Star Marine is a B-class, bog standard FPS that is utter crap compared to the Noun of Noun series, Battlefield, or Halo series games. They make it look extremely poor in comparison.

Apples to Oranges in teh Star Marine development ISN’T FINISHED. What’s out to Bakers to playtest now is still an early/incomplete iteration that they’re still working on (like the rest of the game) <— That's why it's called 'Alpha'.

For a far comparison you'd need to get EA or Bungie to release one of their earlier builds of Battlefield or HALO (which they wouldn't do as they've never wanted to do 'open/public facing development'.

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Joe Blobers

Probably because it was not intented to compete with 10 years old fully oriented pure FPS franchise but add a FPS component to Star Citizen?

Star Marine is just there to tests the FPS part of Star Citizen like Arena Commander is used to test ships combat.
Star Marine could become the next COD or BF… only by dedicating many ressources.. which they do not have today to go further down the pure FPS path. Lately, a few people were still asking for 3.0 and SQ42 :)

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primal

oh piss off fake smart. if smart was really here he’d do a better job than you

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Roger Melly

Actually I think you will find that is the real Derek Smart . If memory serves me right he was invited to comment on a story on this site earlier this year and has commented occasionally on Star Citizen stories since .

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shear

Like to be fair here Derek, most people with any common sense would see what’s going on, it’s not as if this is very hard to figure out.

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dsmart

True, but tell that to the guys on Reddit right now postulating that this is all perfectly normal, and nothing to be freaking out about.

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Joe Blobers

Quote DS:guys on Reddit right now postulating that this is all perfectly normal’

… not only on Reddit man :)

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shear

Nothing you can do about that.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”Nothing you can do about that.”

Wrong… and you prove it every day, by being and echo chamber of DS headlines and (failed) prophecies.
Everybody know DS behavior, gross incompetency in releasing anything remotely playable and behavior against whatever is linked to CR… but you choose to follow this guy… up to being an echo chamber including diffamation in pasts comment sections… Fine… your choice.

Your exchange with this guy was cute. Even incompetent need a public hug from times to times :)

Keep going. This is always entertaining to see who is supporting who. As you said already, you can choose by yourself…

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

Please go away.

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dsmart

What, is this your safe space? Get over yourself.

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Nathan Aldana

“Hi, if I scream right-wing gamer jargon will I look like a hip dood the kids all love”

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Armsman

dsmart
What, is this your safe space? Get over yourself.

^^^
Pot meet kettle.

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Daniel Reasor

Let me try to put it fairly. Your criticisms of Star Citizen are legit and needed, and your bad habit of trying to make the story about you regrettably distracts from that.

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There is plenty of room to criticize Star Citizen. Unfortunately, Derek Smart‘s criticisms are not only misplaced, but have been proven to be invariably wrong time and time again. Not only that but he continually projects his own failures on others who are succeeding where he could not.

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Utakata

This isn’t an ego space for you either. Just saying. o.O

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Greaterdivinity

Not at all, if you bothered to read a single post of mine in this comments section you would know that I’m not much of a SC fan, though I don’t hate it either. And I’m pretty dumbfounded by this terrible interview, to boot. So much for your attempt at high wit and humor *giggles* with your space space snark.

But you’re flat-out toxic. Stick to working on your own games rather than trying to insert yourself into drama just for attention. Make your own games as awesome as they can be and let your work speak for itself.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i don’t think he gets that he undermines all the criticism and concerns he parrots from actual backers voicing those things by regurgitating them along side his ego flatulence self promotion and shitty behaviour.

i don’t think he cares, because he’s the kind of person that will make everyone else’s things about themeselves.

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Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

Should never give dates ever, even estimates, hopefully the gamescon no date giving trend will continue, just weekly progress updates on how the project is going should be more than enough

That way if people want to make up there own estimates they can, although I suppose the problem with that is you get some random making an estimate, someone else reading it and taking it as an official response from a developer lol

Emmanuel Carabott
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Emmanuel Carabott

You really think thats a viable strategy? that is ask people for their money while giving them no estimates at all when you’ll actually be delivering what you promised?

I mean imagine if say one of the mega big online retailers stopped marking if stuff it sells is in stock so that when you purchase and pay you dont know when said item will be shipped and they’d simply do this to avoid critisism on their delivery speed, wouldnt that be an outrage? do you think anyone would buy from that retailer? I sure wouldnt because price is only part of the equation, time line is another. I might be willing to pay more for an item if i can get it a week in advance to a cheaper option for example.

Simply no, hiding their estimates is not the solution to this problem.

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Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

Did you just skip the bit where I said weekly updates on progress?
So long as each week the progress being made on the project is being documented and released then I would be happy.

Now if they were to give no release dates and provide no feedback on project development then I would have a big sulk.

Emmanuel Carabott
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Emmanuel Carabott

I dont think weekly updates is a substitute for estimates at all. Again going with my retailer with no delivery information analogy .. Imagine I buy the latest and greatest GPU the market has to offer. I pay for it and start waiting. I hoped it would be shipped within 24hrs but that didnt happen. i wait… first week goes by and I get my first update. Waiting for stock from our supplier. Fine… another week goes by, we got the wrong cards, supplier promises to send us correct cards next week. 3rd week.. still waiting for replacements… 4th week we dont know how to tell you this, the truck carrying your card was involved in an accident, driver is safe but cards burned down. 5th week waiting for shipment again.. 6th week ooops they sent the wrong cards again… and so on so forth until the next generation of GPU is released and the card you bought hasnt been sent yet.

of course this is all an exaggeration but even so pretty clear that weekly reports will neither lesson your anticipation or make you accept the delay with less shall we say anger..

and mind you we’re talking about something we have a frame of reference to… if an item is in stock we expect it to ship next business day and if not available within a week of order. with game development there is no such luxury so just telling us what they worked on this week, how many bugs they quashed and how man new ones they gave live to is certainly not going to help. People will be allover the place with their expectation… some will go with their experience on early access expecting new builds every couple of weeks. Some will go with their favorite game franchise and figure yeah it will probably take about 4-5 years for them to finish and what do you think when those 5 years are over and we are in the state that we are in. Do you really think will go oops my 5 year estimate was totally wrong… but nothing to worry about we can see their weekly progress or is it more likely we’d have a situation where people with torches and pitchforks will peacefully and calmly ask for a release estimate?

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Dom Claur

Estimated date should really be given with a few month more to secure inevitable development issues. 3.0 in June? Give an estimate around October AND burndown + details reports of bugs numbers and types. That is enough to please the majority, a few won’t ever be satisfied anyway.

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

Alpha 3.0 Release in 4-6 Weeks according to C.R. from starcitizen

Except he did give a date, actually. So much for “no more dates!”, that didn’t last very long.

And backers should absolutely be asking for estimated dates of delivery. That’s more or less equivalent to milestone calendars that publishers/investors will have, and it’s a good measure of the studios ability to keep up with their work and accurately project their timelines. Which is kinda important for budgeting/planning.

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They gave us estimated dates. The problem with that was that there are too many people out there that take an “estimated date” and treat it as if it is set in stone and when that date is missed, they throw a fit. This is software development. The date is going to be missed many times. That’s just how it goes. Upper management is too optimistic and the developers just laugh at the dates and keep plugging along until it’s done.

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

I get that, so do a lot of other folks. But if you’re routinely missing your estimated delivery dates, and doing so by upwards of a year in some instances, then there should be some very serious questions as to why the estimated dates are so consistently wrong.

This is the kind of thing that wouldn’t fly with a publisher. If a developer is constantly missing milestone deadlines, then you can bet your ass the publisher is going to start getting very hands-on to figure out why that’s the case, and depending on the cause potentially drop the game altogether. That’s reportedly what happened with Vanguard when McQuaid and team were frequently missing/fudging milestones, which is why SOE came in late in the game to “save” the project.

This is a crowdfunded game under Roberts. If Roberts is so out of touch as “upper management”, then what the hell is he still doing as the face of CIG/SC?

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vertisce

The unfortunate fact of the matter is that this is nothing new at all with software development of any kind. You make an estimation on when something will be done and months later it’s still not done because one bug or another crops up. Why do some games like say, Starcraft 2 take so long to make? You would think a game like that take 7 years to make? Bugs…we just didn’t see the development process unfold like we are with Star Citizen.

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

SC2 wasn’t in full production all that time, and Blizzard can afford far larger budgets and longer timelines than most developers can. They’re a pretty terrible company to use as a reasonable comparison as there’s pretty much no company that actually compares to them.

Yes, software is hard. Again, I get that. But again, this kind of behavior wouldn’t fly under a publisher or under private investment. Period. They’d have their asses dropped so fast they’d wonder if they had stumbled into a gravity well.

A certain amount of flexibility given the complexity and challenges of software development is expected, but having nearly everything repeatedly delayed, including for coming up on a full year now for 3.0 (which isn’t even the final product), is not normal. It’s not anything that would be acceptable anywhere else with outside funding.

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I would rather deal with delayed releases and a longer development time than deal with an inferior product riddled with bugs being released as a result of having an impatient and money hungry publisher.

The entire point to the Kickstarter and this project was to make the game without a publisher. It’s one of the key reasons why I backed to begin with. No publisher. No EA interfering and destroying what could be a great game. No WB adding micro-transactions under the guise of adding to the game experience just so they can line their pockets. No Zenimax taking a long cherished franchise and shitting all over it to make a quick buck.

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shear

3.0 is a soft launch of this game.

The day they add the ability to buy ships and no longer wipe progress which by the way I have a suspicion they will do for 3.1 if not for 3.0 Itself it’s no longer early access it’s essentially launched game.

Now let me ask you. Are you happy with it? He is giving you less than one system, a bunch of sold ships are not in the game yet, most of the professions are not in the game yet and won’t be for the 3.0.

How would you feel if CiG did that?

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They have already announced that 3.1 would allow us to purchase ships with aUEC. So, nice “prediction” there. That does not make it a “launched game”. They still plan to wipe progress with each update in order to test everything as they go along.

I am very happy with the progress of Star Citizen. I am happy because I am not ignoring the progress they are making and showing us every week. I understand what it takes to develop software. I don’t go crying on every forum I can find about how I think they should have made this game in 2 years when I can’t even complete my own game.

Your final question is irrelevant.

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shear

It’s not irrelevant, it’s the only answer I want from you. How would you feel, if 3.1 no longer had wipes and would basically be the launch of the game?

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vertisce

Being as that isn’t going to happen, your question is irrelevant.

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shear

I am asking you how would you feel if it did happen, but your determination not to answer this question leads me to believe you’d be wildly and rightfully disappointed.

Remember this exchange when the game is launched into early access with no wipes and less than 10% of the content that was promised. That’s the inevitable.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”but your determination not to answer this question leads me to believe”

Shear the Master of never said words by OP, translated in pure fantasy matching his desire to demonstrate something OP precisely or implicitly denied… :)

This time we got:
“SC released as finished with 3.1 with 10% of content…. inevitable…” for sure… 90 days top! :)

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zeko_rena

I don’t monitor every news site, and certainly not German ones, but when I try to follow the link to the article off reddit I get

“Secure Connection Failed”

However they can still have internal deadlines, I was meaning public dates, of course you still need internal deadlines lol, just seems to be dammed if they do dammed if they don’t

People whinge at a delay from a date “estimate” or people whinge if no date is provided.

I guess its the whole people are not happy unless there whinging that seems to be the in thing these days.

EDIT: I am not saying your comment was whinging by the way, just people in general :)

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Greaterdivinity

Chris apparently made that comment publicly via the interview. I only spotted it because someone else linked to it earlier, myself.

People will “whinge” (I assume this is a “clever” snark at whine?) when dates are consistently missed, yes. They’ll “whinge” when they’re crowdfunding a product and the developers don’t provide them remotely accurate dates again and again, or any dates at all, which any publisher/investor would absolutely demand FYI.

And those folks will absolutely be justified in all their “whinging”. Were they a publisher, they’d have already long since yanked funding for CIG’s abysmal failure to come remotely close to hitting their milestone estimates. It’s what happened to McQuaid with Vanguard when Microsoft dropped their ass for what was reportedly a routine failure to meet milestones.

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Blue touchpaper

Lets see in 4-6 weeks how accurate that is .

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

I sure hope it is, I’d like to see them hit those dates (and any/all others) with awesome updates that everyone likes : )

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shear

Stop it, you are making too much sense, you are about to make an enemy. :DDD

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Patreon Donor
Yuri Geinish

And the bullshit rolls on.

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Utakata

…but we’re here for the /popcorn comments, right? :)

Leontes
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Leontes

*crunchcrunch*

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thirtymil

I know I am :)

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A Dad Supreme

“People still think of the old way [of making games], like my past games. We’d talk about a game for years, we’d show it, but no one would have their hands on it ’til it was out. There was an obsession with ‘when will it get released’. Even with those [traditional boxed] games now, they get patched, they add things, make things better over time.”
=======
Lulz. Ah yes,the good ol’ days.

When a company would make a game with their own money, hype it along, and keep you updated when they’d release things.

Now all these ingrates…er… pre-paid customers… expect to be updated on when the company plan to release things after endless hyping instead of just waiting for responses from their company when they feel like doing it.

The nerve.

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Utakata

The question should always be whether the post is offensive and why it got so many /upvotes if it is. And not instead how many /upvotes where gained in a given amount of time.

To answer your question more directly though, 6 readers like what they saw roughly around the same time and within that period, hit the /upvote button. I am not sure why you find that surprising or suspicious. It seems simple arithmetic to me. O.o

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

Did you save the page as it was 2 minutes after he posted and then come back an hour later to comment, or something? I’m confused as to how this worked for you.

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Veritas Liberos

If you look at his other comments below you’ll see he’s a hardcore Star Citizen fanboy who simply can’t believe there are people who actually don’t like his game. CIG and Chris Roberts tell everyone Star Citizen detractors (known as “goons” in the community) are one off individuals with “silly little grievances”, in order to get more money for stupid jpeg images of starships from backers. So when reasonable criticism gets heavily upvoted in a public forum it “must be fake upvotes”.

The reality is huge numbers of people, even people who still really really want Star Citizen to happen and are massive backers with thousands of dollars are now critical of the project, and most of the [people] still supporting it are newer backers from after 2015 who haven’t been lied at enough by CIG become cynical yet.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Veritas Liberos:”huge numbers of people”

Yes like someone saying in this very comment section, look “people” are unhappy…. this is +50 individual (not all disatisfied) = 0.000008% of 600.000 backers.
Meanwhile and despite frustration of some about “delay” which nothing but normal game development… 2M$ on average per month.

Which does not mean that some are not disastisfied… but the gap is more than huge between comment sections and reality.

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Veritas Liberos

You only have to see that the official Star Citizen Refunds subreddit has grown by 30% in 1 month to see a lot of people are bailing out. The numbers of money coming in, such as $2 million, don’t show you how much money is haemorrhaging out the other end. From reports of big “whales” with concierge level status asking for refunds, we know it’s a lot, a big big big lot – tens of millions of dollars in refunds already.

(Comment edited by mod; please review our commenting code of conduct.)

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Dom Claur

Remind me of the Glassdoor jokes with ex-employees talking about CR forcing them to carry him on their back from room to room. Hilarious.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Veritas Liberos:”tens of millions of dollars ”

Sorry my bad there is one extra zero, correct percentage is 0.00008% not 0.000008% :)

Sure… counting fake and forged refund (the last one was “just” 16k confirmed fake)… 30% minus fake equal multiplied by 0.000001%… :) yes 10 of millions… close to 100M$ soon, 90 days top! :)

Here is my contribution for refund I received. I swear!

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Space Captain Zor

If only most people would simply lay out constructive criticism and leave it at that, but no. So much hyperbole and indefensible trolling.

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Loopy

We’re all actually Dad’s bots. Didn’t you know?

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Hirku

No, I’m A Dad Supreme!

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A Dad Supreme

You guys always crack me up lol.

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

Or are we actually all his alternative personalities, briefly taking over control of his body to give him like without any of us realizing it?

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rafterman

You’re delusional.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

He is. This was the guy who spent years trolling Elite Dangerous in these comments all over $20 or something stupid. Funny how it’s sad when others do it but was perfectly acceptable week after week when he did it.

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Sally Bowls

There are some on the extreme who will love – and others who will hate – SC almost regardless of what it is.

I am not overly invested in the game or its discussions, but over the last year, my impression is that the “trolls” as you describe them are winning. I.e., I think SC’s reputation now is worse than a year ago.

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NovaScotiaCitizen

winning what? An imaginary war against a video game in development? Who. cares what trolls say, if someone’s opinion is swayed by a bunch of armchair experts repeatedly posting doom and gloom which never happens, they’re not any smarter than the average CNN / MSNBC viewer consuming the daily mainstream BS news and going along with it.

The CIG games will either be good or bad or average and both will come out. One of the two games has Mark Hamill in it and it will sell a couple million copies or more on release. It will be the final, biggest cup of troll tears I will drink. The end.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the imaginary war against a video exists only in the minds of fanboys like yourself, and perhaps derek smart’s imagination as well.

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Reselect Name

A video?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

a video game. i’m not awake yet.

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Sally Bowls

“Right now it’s a very not-for-profit enterprise

IMO, “what is SC’s monetization strategy after launch?” is an interesting topic. There a number of things they can successfully do. E.g., some blend of:
Will they downsize people/expenses a lot after the pre-launch crunch is over?
Always new ships for sale?
sub?
people still donate after launch?

When it launches and the donations perhaps stop, then what is for sale and does the dev team shrink?

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Kickstarter Donor
Tobasco da Gama

Last I heard, they have ~1 million backers right now. A high-quality AAA title usually sells much more than that, so I don’t think there’s necessarily a big question mark about post-launch sales.

Also, the single-player portion of the game, Squadron 42, will be released as two episodes. Everyone who bought a game package before a certain point will get both, but newer buyers (including anyone who waits until “launch”) will only get the first. And they almost certainly will make more episodes if the first two sell well.

So, I don’t think there’s a huge issue for post-launch monetisation, if the launch itself has decent reviews and word of mouth. And, as you suggest, I believe they will indeed cut loose some of their departments or sub-studios after release. Probably most of the studios that are now focusing on engine-related work will be either shut down completely or substantially reduced in size.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

where do you get a 1 million backer’s figure?

they’ve only disclosed number of backers once under a year ago and that number was 500k after 4 years of constant sales and marketting.

most early access games sell most of their copies at EA launch and their official launch sales regardless of the quality of the product delivered are vastly reduced from that figure.

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Sally Bowls

The question is if they have already pre-sold those million customers and used that $160M? 260M? to make the game, what is the ongoing, post-launch development and what pays for it? Will it need to be funded from unspent prelaunch donation or where does the ongoing revenue come from?

N.B.: not accusing anyone of anything, there are lots of options. just curious if it is ships, DLC, UEC?

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ichi sakari

they’ll continue to produce SQ42 episodes for sale, they’ll offer UEC which will bring in loads, it’ll allow the non-basement-dwelling types a chance to buy components and other goodies; of course this will bring out the PTW FUD trolls because … CIG is FUD troll magnet

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cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

They say that selling UEC will be their focus after launch, which should be of concern. If they believe they can make enough money from selling in-game cash then they must be designing large aspects of their game around that idea. When has that type of design worked out well?

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Sray

The majority of the money that GTA Online makes is from selling in-game cash, so there’s an example of that type of design working out well.

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primal

How else do you expect the servers to keep running? Most MMO these days are buy to play with a cash shop. There also not charging for any “expansions” so please tell me how there supposed to keep paying for stuff?

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vertisce

He is just a hater that doesn’t bother to think before he speaks.

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Sally Bowls

Most MMO these days are buy to play with a cash shop.

I don’t believe that. at least for Western PC;
Off the top of my head, there are a couple of sub games (WoW, FF XIV) and B2P (TESO & BDO) but most things are F2P (EVE, GW2, SWTOR, WS, Terra, B&S, STO, LotRO, …)

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vertisce

Wait, you lumped EVE as a F2P when it has an identical system to BDO with the only difference being you have to pay $10 for the game up front? That is an extremely small distinction…

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shear

You do realise that buying money in the game for real money is by definition pay to win.

On top of that, because there are no levels of any kind in SC, character progression will be directly linked to how much money you have in game, so, people with a lot of money to spend on games will have any and every ship with any and every gun and unlimited amount of rebuys on day one, and by the looks of it, SC is funded by quite a few people like that.

You’ll really be able to feel the 1% in this game.

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Armsman

shear
You do realise that buying money in the game for real money is by definition pay to win.

Um, no that’s actually NOT the definition of ‘Pay To Win’ – the definition of ‘Pay To Win’ is for powerful items in an MMO you CAN ONLY OBTAIN BY SPENDING REAL MONEY IN ITS CASH SHOP.

If the Item in question can be earned by simply playing the game (it may take more time to get it) – then it’s not ‘Pay To Win’.

You could argue it’s ‘Pay for Convenience’ which even a lot of subscription based MMOs do in their cash shops (including WoW.)

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Joe Blobers

Quote: “You do realise that buying money in the game for real money is by definition pay to win. ”

You realise that buying cosmetic stuff or paying to be allowed to reach a special area have nothing to do with P2W? How buying a nice space suits available only with cash is P2W?

Beside that, everything is available with in game credits. The game is based on instance with different security level. A guy (or Org) with an Idris won’t create havoc in a high secure area without being in trouble with Army/Police NPC’s not even counting players making credits with Bounty hunter mission.
When CIG will provide precise description of what will be available with cash it will be time to talk about each opinion.

… and the legend of:”SC is funded by quite a few people”…. :)
Yea the theory of 2000 whales versus hundred of thousands backers… 160M$= 80.000 $ per whale head.
Man, CR must have a magic wand… or there are nother theory: hundred of thousands of Backers (estimated to +600.000) to support this project.

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Kickstarter Donor
zeko_rena

What about if you pay real money for in game money to buy a big ship but then another player with better skill because he earns said ship in game destroys your ship, does it become pay to lose?

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shear

What if I spend 20 hours getting a ship and someone comes around the corner after they just got the game and bought enough UEC to buy a bigger/better ship and shits all over me rendering all my progress useless and in effect paying to win this theoretical encounter.

Not only that but even if I manage to kill him he just buys another one as if nothing happens and keeps going until he eventually runs me down.

In an MMO like SC wants to be a loss has to feel like a loss, but it will never feel like a loss to a person who can just wipe out his wallet and pretend like nothing happened. That’s the eventuality in this scenario. There are no grounds on to argue against it, any other game with a system in which you can purchase currency in the game in which the currency is directly attached to your progression would be labeled as pay to win, yet again, SC is getting a pass.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”someone comes around the corner after they just got the game ”

What if no cash is given to keep a +428 team financially healthy? is it better to have an MMO with not ebough $ to keep addding great contents (not only a new suit with different colors).

SC won’t have a pass about P2W… this is backers driven and SC will be what backers want it to be. They could make instance limiting a type of ships… bought with real cash. That could be an option to overcome that P2W perception (real or not).

Why not leaving those who buy ships with cash between each others? Technically this is not rocket science.

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GoJammit

How will you know they didn’t go through the same struggle as you? Why does it matter to you if thewy got it first.

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shear

It doesn’t matter who got it first what does matter is that it will take me time to get that stuff back it will not take any for them. It’s not about the time it’s about the effort just to stay relevant in a game.

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GoJammit

It will still take them time to get that back.

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shear

Not if they can pay for it with real money. It will take them time to type in the credit card details.

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primal

You can do that in eve online, world of warcraft, not sure about others havnt played any others in a long time. Warcraft you buy a token for £19 then can sell it on auction house atm for about 250k ish gold from what I remember from the other day so don’t sit there pretending SC is the only one

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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

In WoW, top end gear is earned via raid – guess you could pay to be carried, that isn’t PTW like SC.

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shear

Gold in WoW is meaningless. I started playing a month ago and made 50k without trying, gold in no way has any considerable effect in WoW.

In eve you can have billions but there are still character skills, so your character progression is not calculated only in money, although I suppose now you can buy skills so, yes EvE, in theory, is sort of pay to win too.

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primal

you cant do alot with 50k gold at lvl 110 if you want to buy top end gear.

Eve having skills doesnt really mean anything. its a time sink to keep you playing but ok answer me this…. how pay to win is this. When i used to play eve i purely PvPed for about 3 years and all i did to be able to constantly do that was to buy game time codes with real money and sold it for isk. if i did make any money in game is was buy selling something id gotten from blowing someone up and most of the time i didnt bother doing that i just kept stuff for spare parts.

I had a carrier and a dreadnought, battleships, recon ships, battlecruisers, command ships, etc and other than that i didnt make a single isk from mission running, mining, hauling etc how your technically supposed to do it.

You could call buying UEC a pay to win mechanic which i guess i cant argue with that seeing as that was all i did in eve but its there as a neccessity to keep the game going but not alot of people are going to be doing that whether they dont want to or simply cant afford to. It has to be done, cant just rely on cosmetics otherwise devs will be forced to churn out vanity crap all the time.

you may not like it but it has to be done

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shear

Well actually there is plenty of other ways to monetize the game without making it pay to win, they don’t absolutely have to sell UEC in the game as if it’s the only way to make money for them, that notion is ridiculous.

They could have an optional sub, which works wonders for TESO.

Could have a mandatory sub, might piss off some backers but I don’t even think it would considering how freely you are all throwing the money at it. (Maybe not you, I am not going to generalize like that, but it certainly feels like it)

They could charge for expansions or DLC that wasn’t part of the deal.

Lastly, they could sell cosmetics and considering just how strong their visuals are in the game, their cosmetics might just be impressive enough so people buy them consistently. Which is the system I’d prefer.

Either way, selling UEC is absolutely not the only solution, and definitely not the best.

Edit: Why would anyone ever buy gear in WoW? I have never bought gear in my life playing WoW. I just loot it.

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primal

in wow to skip the looting part if you cant be bothered to grind your way upto raid gear level. I do have to say it is alot easier now. You do the world quests in broken shore and there handing out gear to you. ive barely done any dungeons and im average 894. also got a 970 legendary from a pink icon world boss.

The optional sub is one thing ive said before i think but it would have to be done right because it would need to give you some benefits otherwise no one will bother. think my mate said in TESO if you have a sub you can get higher experience gain and stuff and i think maybe the ability to teleport yourself to wherever your mate is or something. i cant remember it does give you direct in game benefits over someone that doesnt have that subscription though, would that come under your pay to win category??

ive been thinking about this UEC and it might not be as bad as you think. atm its like £10 for 10,000 UEC. Roberts has said the amount you pay for your ship now in real money will be alot more in game credits so if you take a hornet thats currently at £105 although that is with 20% tax. lets take the 20% tax away to find an in game price so £105 / 12 x 10 = £87.50 in UEC that should = about £90 gives you like 90,000 UEC. But the ingame price in UEC is supposed to be alot higher so say its double at about 180,000 thats going cost you abotu £180 to buy… for a hornet.

You go up the ships and itll be insane the amount of money youd need to spend. Thinking about it that way its not a big deal. The eve thing i used to buy 5 game time codes a month which got 150-190million per code i always tried to get above 800mill for all 5. now 800million a month in eve is ALOT of wedge or was like 11 years ago you could alot but seems in SC if the UEC to money amount stays the same its not worth worrying about because its far to much

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shear

Nah, buying gear in WoW of AH is something I doubt many people do, it’s so easy to get gear.

TESO sub is good. They don’t take anything away from the base game they give you extra stuff if you sub which is nice, and yes there is a 10% increased XP gain which is negligible, I mean it’s 10% so you’ll get to the end that much quicker, there are other benefits but none of it is impactful really. The game is very much playable for free, it’s just more convenient to sub.

Ok so here is the issue, you are one of those people who can afford to dish out that kind of money on a game, £180 for a ship in a game? No. Hell no. I am a student and I simply can’t afford this, and if you can, I can not compete with you in this game, you win.

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primal

no i cant dish out £180 for a ship in a game at least at the rate your implying, ive got a mortgage and bills to pay dude. besides as long as youve got insurance on your ship you should be fine same as in eve it all depends what you have equipped on that ship. some people in eve have a battleship with a billion isks worth of gear on it. stuff you get off the high level npc well or more specifically the lower you go in space the better.

itll be the same in SC, well i hope at least be pointless going after dangerous pirates or whatever for them to drop you trash loot. then you could sell it for tons or equip it but if you lose your ship its gone.

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shear

Yeah but you don’t seem to understand, it might take me let’s say 20 hours to get the ship and then someone might blow me up with a bigger ship they bought with real money and in essence paid to win, and I can’t compete with that, nor do I want to, and I suspect a lot of people wouldn’t want to, but I could be wrong.