Star Citizen denies claims that a backer sought and received a $45000 refund

[Update: ArsTechnica now reports that a Cloud Imperium rep has gone on the record stating that some of the Redditor’s claims are fabrication, including the amount (CIG maintains it was $330, not $45000) and that the screenshots and videos depicting poor customer service are forgeries. We can confirm the same statements have now been made to us by the same CIG rep. Cheers, Cotic! The original article follows.]

If you’re as “fed up” with waiting for Star Citizen as Chris Roberts is “fed up” with providing endless moving release dates for alpha 3.0, there’s one recourse left to you: get a refund.

That appears to be precisely what one guild has done. A report on ArsTechnica points to claims on the Star Citizen Refunds subreddit, where an anonymous player has seemingly provided proof to the public and to moderators that he and his guild sought and received refunds on $45,000 worth of completionist packages (three for $15,000 apiece). He makes clear his antagonism toward the game, too.

“We sidelined many other great games and commercial opportunities waiting for Star Citizen, but in the end we can’t wait any longer, and a new generation is joining also who have absolutely no interest,” Redditor Mogmentum claims. “The final straw was evidence presented the committee of Chris Roberts blatantly lying, we don’t mind the delays but couldn’t handle the lies anymore, and it left us wondering what else he is knowingly lying about.” He doesn’t elaborate on those accusations.

He also claims “it was a nightmare getting the refund” because of the ID required and corporate credit card process. “Total it took about 5 weeks to get sorted,” he alleges. “They definitely try to delay you as much as possible in the hope you’ll forget or give up.”

The subreddit is filled with claims like this one, though this is surely among the highest – if it’s legitimate. (The general Star Citizen sub, we should note, is skeptical, and has further pointed out that the game earns more from backers in a single day than this refund cost.)

We have reached out to CIG’s PR for comment, but generally studios do not comment on their finances or player accounts, so don’t hold your breath.

Star Citizen has had a bit of a rough couple of weeks; following its impressive real-time facial animation display at Gamescom, CIG has been talking up its survival mechanics, including perceived nuisances or trivialities (depending on your view) like defecation effects while slowly whittling down the alpha 3.0 bug list. A delayed Gamescom interview published this week by Eurogamer has been criticized as a seemingly frustrated Chris Roberts suggested he was tired of “fan trolling” and people asking him for release dates, though he also rejects the exhausting notion that the game is a scam.

Source: Reddit via ArsTechnica. With thanks to Serrenity!
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161 Comments on "Star Citizen denies claims that a backer sought and received a $45000 refund"

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odin valhalla

Had the investor put that money in the market, giving the bull run we are on… LOL

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Rolan Storm

Always fun to know that things are usual in the Realm. ‘Well, not guild… Well, not $45k…’ Heh.

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Roger Melly

Like most here I think this is probably just trolling Star Citizen but the damage has been done I have spoken to several people today who are convinced it’s real .

I think it is possible that some people who have invested larger sums of money into the game might seek refunds especially if the rate of development doesn’t pick up .

I guess they could try and sue the person responsible( and to be honest after some of what I have read here I wouldn’t blame them) but can you imagine the online backlash that would provoke .

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Joe Blobers

Quote Roger melly:”I think it is possible that some people who have invested larger sums ”

That is exactly the type of comment we can expect after such “fake drama”. Proven fake but who knows… after all it is may be time for refund?
If they are convinced this is real by reading headlines, they will be convinced this is not buy reading updated headlines, right?

The “damage” are negligeable to SC project. Players do not join based on headlines only but contents and perspective.

As you said the rate of development is key. Good news. CIG do have all lights on green in terms of game engine, pipelines, team size and pledges.
3.0 is at one hand of Evocati group of testers and the 4 remaining patch (3.1 to 4.0) are much smaller than 3.0). Expect at least 3 of them released by end of 2018 which make Beta at 5/6 quarters.

Those who have pledged more than a starter package are also the ones who can see the benefit to have exclusive or big ship at Beta and after. Why sell on grey market while you probably can’t buy the same ships, with or without LTI, in a year and half or at a much higher price?

With the right remaining patch timing release, CIG ensure a steady pledges flow, through new backers and older backers.

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Veldan

At this point, if SC turns out to not be a game and it was all for the internet drama, I’d be OK with that.

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starbuck1771

It was Fabricated. The guy got busted and deleted his Reddit account.

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NovaScotiaCitizen

too bad CIG knows his identity :))

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Roger Melly

Even if they do they would be wise to let the matter rest .

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starbuck1771

Why is that? He didn’t have a right to a refund of anything in the first place but RSI\CIG were nice enough to give refunds anyways. When you back the game it gives notification that you are not entitled to a refund and once you accept it you acknowledge and accept that and have no legal right to a refund.

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Roger Melly

I was referring more to CIG bringing legal action against this guy for lying on reddit . Which I imagine could be construed as defamation maybe ?( as Novascotiacitizen alludes to in another post ) .

Offering refunds is not nice of them it is good business practice because if they refused to do so it would soon get about that something might be amiss with the game and it might deter new backers .

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Byórðæįr

I have no idea what did or did not happen but I do have to point
out you are looking at a video which had to be edited and encoded
to end up on the web so saying that it had to be true that it happened
because in an edited video refreshing the page could not be faked is
kinda silly.

Basically if you upload raw avi files they would be hundreds of megabytes instead of the edited footage of screen grabs. Ah I might be wrong but weren’t the high roller packages 12k anyway? which would be 36 thousand dollars. I hope no one short of money bought those but people with disposable income only. Those people kudos for supporting the game development.

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starbuck1771

Also think about this. If your guild was requesting refunds why would they refund the money to only one person? That is proof enough that his images and video’s were falsified.

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Joe Blobers

Guess what… fake. As I told yesterday before CIG provided an answer.

This subreddit “refund”section is out of any control like Escapist was by providing “proof” of ex-employees ID that was proven fake. Even better This the nest of all guys rushing every SC article to shoot refund. Astormapproachs is one of this subreddit active mods.. who “approved” himself the evidence (jpges and video included) as “valid”… just to say that everything they can do to hurt SC Comunnity will be done…

There is already proven fake Jpge of $16.000 (few weeks ago). OP on Reddit call moron people saying it is fake and provide a few seconds video refreshing a screen on what his supposed to be a 45K refund…

This can be faked with some relatively medium video podcast skill and video editing tools. He could have also simulated the White House garden with alien walking on the grass.

Here is another “Org proof jpges” of +108K$ refund. Totally false of course.

Trolls are desperate for visibility with major patch upcoming in October.

Another “drama”.. another flop. But for now, I am the one with the biggest refund with 108K$ :)

I try to deliver information based on facts and numbers and denounced already months ago the orchastrated campaign of obfuscation, lies and deception used by a very small group of toxic individual to desperately try to hurt CR and SC Community supporting Star Citizen project.
I said also they were going to switch to a more frenetic toxic behavior before 3.0 because this patch is the nail in DS and followers hatred coffin.

Looking at comments poping up like popcorn on PCInvasion comment section, with a military timing, one troll after the orther, each one leaving his pre formatted message, supporting each others. Quite a captivating troll’s ballet indeed :)

Starting with the guy who “validated” the “evidence” (the same guy rushing every sincle SC article to leave message of Doom and Mod/Admin of this very Reddit subsection), followed by is three lieutenant… and the Clown arriving minutes after and leaving his LOL messages.
Same ballet repeated on some others web sites which were more interested by quick buzz headline than anything else… The recent “loan gate” then “Australian tax gate” were probably too far away to remember how they both ends up…

Fascinating. Disgusting human behavior as its best. I did not write “pinnacle” because I expect much bigger lies/hoax in the next coming months, because those guys and their spiritual leader have proved already to have precisely no limits :)

Note: Still that does not mean some backers or none backers can’t have genuine doubt or question. This is fine and only release of major patch like 3.0 and following will lift most of those doubts/questions during following quarters.
In the meantime it is not forbidden to educate ourself and try to sort ou what belong to frustration handling versus scam , con or childish behavior…

PS: Credit to Palonga for the second picture with the Clown
PSbis: lastest news-> Update: The redditor who made the original post on has deleted their account… :)

Fake or not fake.png
Fake DS (palonga).png
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Michael18

Maybe Ars should’ve done some research before copy/pasting GIFs from reddit. I’ve been reading Ars for a long time but since they shifted the focus away from tech/science to gaming coverage and the like, the journalistic quality seems to be going down hill.

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Melissa McDonald

Yeah unfortunately too many tech sites have descended into “opinion” instead of “reporting”. ENGADGET published a manifesto last year about how they were changing to a site that was based on their “perspective” and interjected things like evolution, global warming, every possible political slant as being “irrefutable” and something they’d be pushing in their articles.

I pretty much quit reading when their tech articles became soapboxes to push the editor’s political views. Really baffling to me why, but ESPN is doing exactly the same thing – becoming about politics more than sport.

I pray that Massively doesn’t become the same thing, a platform for pushing the views of the writers that transcends game reporting.

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Torb Inator

You have absolutely no idea what journalistic standards are. CIG continues to get a free pass from most of the media. There is no balanced reporting on CIG at all – it is all promotion of the “game” and no critical analysis.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Torb Inator:”There is no balanced reporting on CIG”

Say the guy who spent tens comments on various sites to copy/paste reddit subsection proven fake stories but still defend them with baseless arguments + direct link to the Clown blog :)

Talk us about balanced reporting Torb :)

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

PCGamer had an article up as well but removed it shortly after CIG’s response to Ars’ article. Game-debate.com had it running far, far earlier in the day.

As long as the article is not presenting the situation as fact then there’s not really any problem. Look at articles where people get arrested, it’s alleged that they commited the crime, should media hold off reporting on such things until it has been proven and the perp convicted?

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Michael18

Didn’t say Ars should only publish info that is 100% proven. I said they shouldn’t publish arbitrary, anonymous (or pseudonymous) posts from one of the most notorious corners of the internet, without at least a minimal fact checking in advance.

BTW: in my OP I’ve not criticised Massively. After it has been published on a site like Ars, it “became news”, in a sense, because it was obvious that a significant discussion would follow and, in addition, part of the news is that Ars publishes such a story. I’d guess that Bree would not have published the article above only based on the reddit post without the Ars article.

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starbuck1771

Waiting would be the Smart thing to do. However this is about a game not an arrest. So if something like this happens you end up looking like an ass who didn’t do the research which damages your credibility. Ars clearly didn’t do the research and think the story through. I bet their editor hates having egg on their face.

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Jack Pipsam

I still don’t understand how people threw thousands upon thousands at a CGI model anyway, I wouldn’t be at all shocked if one of them came to their senses about their ‘purchase’.

misanthropomorphic
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misanthropomorphic

I understand people losing patience and wanting a refund. What I can’t understand is how that leads to charges of “scam.” I’ve watched nearly every developer video they’ve put out. The sheer amount of work being done, by incredibly smart and dedicated people is just jaw-dropping.

The realism they’re going for is off-the-charts compared to any other game I’ve ever seen. Does that mean the game will be “fun?” Can’t say. Flight simulators are extremely realistic too, but they bore the crap out of me. I gave them my $35 years ago for the most basic ship, and now I play the other 250 games I’ve got on Steam while waiting for SC. But yeah, if I had coughed up $15k, I might have less patience and want to make some noise.

In a weird way, I’m kinda hoping this game sucks. Because it has all the potential to be a life-stealer like WoW was when it came out. And it was hard enough to break that addiction, I don’t think I want a new one.

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Roger Melly

I think the problem is those development videos offer promises of what is to come and not what is currently playable .

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Koshelkin

What’s the matter here? CGI getting all panicky because a couple of customers wanted a refund? That they choose to react to this is what blows the story out of proportion, not that someone wanted a comparatively big refund.

The one thing which makes me suspicious is that the refund is for 3 different persons, the money lands on a single PayPal account, though. Who in his right mind transfers 15k $ to a person he knows from the internet when he can do the transaction himself through the same channel?

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Raimo Kangasniemi

The matter is that it seems to have been fake news and trolling by the whale – who, it seems was just a barracuda in the end.

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DrSteinman

I mean, that seems to be him refreshing the page of a secure zendisk help portal for the game.

Skoryy
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Skoryy

EVE: Intrigue! Treachery! Massive battles!
Elite: Developing plotline! Exploration!
SC: Trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls.

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Norbert Lichtenecker

This is the first Domino, more will follow very soon and will start a Shockwave.

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Robert Mann

Anyone who drops $15k on a game that isn’t at least in beta (heck, 15K is a lot no matter what state the game is in) is *********. That is all I really know about this.

Estranged
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Estranged

This was almost the greatest refund ever made by the most ambitious project in the history of gaming.

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Bryan Turner

I’m surprised the internet warlord hasn’t shown up yet.

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Talyian

Probably busy writing a blog post about it.

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Utakata

…please, no. :(

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ichi sakari

comment image

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

goes doubly true for game companies deflecting from bad pr right? :D

kingcheezit
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kingcheezit

You would have thought people would have learnt from the Lizzy Finnegan and Escapist debacle. If it’s from Derek Smart, or something Derek Smart is associated with like the refund sub, it’s fake. Do not pass go, do not collect journalistic integrity +1, go straight to bed without any tea,.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the escapist article wasn’t fake tho. those rumours were going around the industry for more than a year prior and chris roberts confirmed they were indeed (“bitter”) ex employees in his knee jerk law suit threat post.

and were later backed up in kotaku.co.uk’s in depth article.

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Emiliano Lozada

Care to provide a link?

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Joe Blobers

Emiliano what Deekay won’t explain to you is that the Kotaku link does not speak at all about the fake Escapist article source …. but a lenghty article I prefer to describe by quoting someone who already did it:

Quote EmphaticGamer about the article”:

Proper journalism where the quoted sources are mostly anonymous with no evidence or sourcing provided?
An article where the only thing they quote is stuff that shines a negative light on the project, this is a balanced and fair approach to journalism?
Seems to me like just another slam piece, fueled by a few bad apples who got canned cause they were shit at their jobs and couldn’t listen to instruction and a ton of speculation, none of which is backed by any evidence…
… Usually when people wish to remain anonymous it’s because they have an axe to grind with the company on a personal level, so then they are also discredited because they could say almost anything to make the company look bad.”

The Escapist article have been removed but you can still fine on Glassdoor, reviews of CIG ex-employees used by The Escapist to “prove” information was correct (you know like the video of refund was a “proof”).
You will find review of guys explaining CR forced them to carry him on their back in the office :)
Go there, write a review with a Unicorn if you want and pretend you find one in CIG office… no problem, this is a valid review as per Escapist criterias… :) Fake journalism doing fake article… being removed from their own site. End of the story.

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Joe Blobers

Thanks Bree for this clarification.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/09/23/inside-the-troubled-development-of-star-citizen

took literally 2 seconds to google “kotaku star citizen”

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NovaScotiaCitizen

the Escapist article was bantha poodoo, same fabricated fantasy of deranged internet harrassers

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Lethality

The Escapist article absolutely was bolstered by fake information.

kingcheezit
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kingcheezit

Thats a stretch.

What would be more accurate however, is to say, yes it was fake, and the Kotaku article said nothing of the sort.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i guess you didn’t even read the kotaky article then eh?

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Utakata

Not sure which is putting out the biggest /popcorn draw of late: Star Citizen or EVE Online. Must be something in the water when it comes to MMO space themed sandboxes. o.O

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic
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Armsman

Dammit dude – I almost killed my Display Monitor projectiling Mountain Dew from impulsively laughing at that. ;)

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

In an update to the ArsTechnica story Swofford says the individual actually received a $330 refund and falsified the rest of rest of it.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/09/tired-of-waiting-star-citizen-guild-gets-a-45000-refund/

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Sally Bowls

Was this a new purchase? I am not in the loop, but I recall a couple of years ago, CIG tacitly approved grey market resales so when a player was ready to bail, it was advantageous to sell rather than refund.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they’ve made “grey market” resales alot harder over the years.

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Melissa McDonald

“the cracks appear, the frame starts to distort, it’s ready to explode.” – Judas Priest

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Sorenthaz

Good Lord that’s a lot of disposable income to throw at a /concept/ of a game.

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Armsman

Well, that means if World of Warcraft, Star Wars The Old Republic, and a slew of other MMOs had done open development and done pre-sales from the point of inception; said Guild in the article would have bypassed them too.

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Sally Bowls

These don’t seem to be hobbyists – they used a corporate card and lamented forgoing other “commercial opportunities.” One can plan around several year lead times. Several year schedules slips cause far more problems. Those MMOs may – or may not – have taken as long as it turns out SC will take but none of them came in at anywhere near 500% of their original estimate.

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Lethality

None of them changed the scope by 500% either.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

wow was in development for 4 years. swtor was out less than 3 years after it was announced.

typical mmo development is 5 years.

that includes time spent on the phase which fanboys refuse to accept is a normal part of the development cycle prior to the kickstarter in 2012.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”wow was in development for 4 years”

And forgot to precise, on purposes, that those Publishers do have uptodate game engine and pipelines, Billions of cash and thousands of developers day One while CIG was 12 guys and 6 M$ and of 2012… counting also the demo trailer of Kickstarter for a year or two (more?) of game development equivalent to what CIG is today… At the time they had no idea of what could be the kickstarter result.

So convenient. You are more credible at every comments Deekay_Plus :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

keep spamming that meme. it doesn’t make it any more relevant.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”keep spamming that meme”

Count one me Deekay :)
not for you because you are in denial but for Readers who could otherwise be misleaded by your comment.

Solaris
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Solaris

I would argue that SC is way more ambitious than any of the MMOs you mentioned. Not defending the long past Kickstarter expected due date though.

Estranged
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Estranged

SC is more ambitious than manned space flight to Mars.

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NovaScotiaCitizen

as if anyone cares about the two crappy Kickstarter millions. What a load of bull even bringing it up.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i didn’t mention them

Solaris
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Solaris

You referred to Wow and Swtor. In the end, the technical hurdles and scope of SC are way beyond the development manpower those titles commanded.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

if you raly believe that you have no concept of those game project’s dev challenges to begin with

nevermind i wasn’t the one who brought them up. again ffs.

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Lethality

SW:TOR was in development in 2005 (source: Me interviewing Bill Dalton). That’s a 6 years. ESO, 7. WildStar, 9. And so on.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

sure bud sure.

and wildstar was famously development hell which you denied for a long time. which is it?

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Joe Blobers

Deekay_Plus did not you saidthat Beyond Good and Evil 2 was developed since 2009 by one man at Ubisoft but showing in 2017 a DEMO close or equivalent to SC 3.0 patch… one man? :)

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Space Captain Zor

R&D development for parts of SC could easily exceed that–namely AI and networking if they ever get it right.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

fixing networking is a pretty normal part of using CE for multiplayer games. look at archeage which suffers none of the issues SC or the crysis games suffer from.

ai development is a normal part of any game with pve.

if anything these things were put on teh backburner or were in development hell until fairly recently.

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Armsman

There were rumors back in 2007 that Lucas Arts and BioWare had already been working on SWToR and most reports say BioWare started working on in in 2006.

SWToR released in December 2011.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

that’s still less than 5 years.

wow how does that even work? XD

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Joshua Dickerson

And it released with far less customized features that Star Citizen has.

It was also a themepark game that was on rails. The only “new” gimic SWTOR had was the voice acting at the time of release. Other than that, it was a mostly “standard” MMO by those standards during that time. It was just because 1) It was Star Wars and 2) It had full character voice acting.

And to my knowledge, they werent really building a game with the level of customization that SC has or the scope and depth that it has.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

none of which has anything to do with the point made.

i’m not here to defend the shitfest that was swtor. just to point out that it took less than 3 years after it was announced to launch. and that even if it was rumoured to be in dev in 2007 that’s still five years of development.

i guess this post got linked to on the subreddit again. a lot of randoms making non arguments that miss the point again.

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Joshua Dickerson

Look whatever your argument is about SC or other games, we are all here discussing and debating it. No need to get all snarky talking about subreddit like that matters at all as far as people’s opinions.

Trying to insult people in order to make you seem like you are more informed is a sign that you have nothing to back your argument up. You made a point……….it didn’t stick in this situation because the games are intrinsically different by design and scope.

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Space Captain Zor

Is any point made about a fully launched, pre-2012 “typical” MMO relevant to a discussion about a still-developing SC? I’m honestly not sure that it is.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

then what was teh point in bringing them up in teh first place?

why to reply to me? i’m not the one who mentioned them.

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Space Captain Zor

lol, what? Unless I’m missing something it looks like you weren’t the first to mention them but you did carry on the discussion of them:

wow was in development for 4 years. swtor was out less than 3 years after it was announced.

If you also think they’re not exactly relevant why not say so earlier to the OP? :P

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

lol wat?

why does my initial reply warrant the missing the point i made about them in my initial reply to argue about them in ways that aren’t even relevant to my point?

most of this thread is beating a dead horse of irrelivancy to teh counter point i made using spurious examples to make a non relevant point or prove the notwithstanding point that those games were development hell that took more than 5 years to develop.

either way it’s a tired meme. we know pretty well how star citizen’s development has gone sideways at times and wasted years of non development to produce ac which is a triviality to develop in CE out of the box in that time, and most of the worthwhile development starting in 2015 which is part and parcel stuff of any game project with any project.

it has nothing to do with scope or ambition, and just normal stuff any game studio does with any engine for any game project even using in house engines.

where there are ambitious game projects out there that have developed their own engines from scratch and produced ground breaking games in less time than SC has been in development total.

beyond that i’m tired of the same old irrelevant talking point memes every single article when it’s just not relevant to any points being made.

there’s also no need to pile on and brigade my every reply with teh same tired talking point memes on every article. i swear i’m rereading the same comments every week for days on end at this point.

we get it, yall think that taking six years going on seven years to produce an alpha milestone that the lead considers steam early access release candidate worthy normal.

when it reality it’s worse than some of these more than five years in development hell games lethality mentions above. which in those cases they didn’t exactly launch in great shape despite being in the oven for so long now did they?

so what’s the point? what’s the point of bringing up wow which was in development for 4 years and other games which were announced less than 5 years prior to launch and launched in shit shape as being a defence of CIG getting on a year late on deploying a cut back iteration of an alpha state milestone? what’s the point in 5 different people arguing against the fact those games were only in dev for that long before launch?

why do i need to wake up every day for the next week with retarded replies that are completely looney tunes on every sc article?

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Space Captain Zor

Well, I mean.. yeah. My question to anyone arguing about it would be what’s the point at all in comparing any game development to any other except to point out how irrelevant it is to do so.

If a dev team puts together something amazing for its time and in a relatively short amount of time that’s either incredible talent or incredible luck or some mixture of both.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

5 year development cycle isn’t a short period of time for most AAA games let alone indie games with shoestring budgets.

most AAA games develop in about 2-3 years from concepting stage to gold status.

few exceptions to that with mmo type games typically being the normative and rathermundane 4-6 year dev cycle for the genre. while mmo’s that have gone over six years to hitting gold from the start of the concepting stage generally as a rule had major development hell issues of one kind or another and are noted for their particularly poor launch states.

in star citizen’s case one has to keep in mind that post kickstarter until around 2015 very little legitimate development got done and most of the staff they hired were artists which produced alot of assets that were trashed or planned to be trashed (what’;s left now? the 300 series and auroras? with aurora rework coming in 3.0 and 300 rework planned?) so despite every week on WMH eric making big shows and big talk of progress and being on track for beta at teh end of 2014, there was actually very little work getting done and at the end of 2014 we got a bullshot video of PU and AC, which AC is relatively trivial to produce in CE with minimal programming really. it’s something someone new to teh engine could produce in a couple months or less working full time if the assets were otherwise available.

so that period of development for the game was all hell. nothing worthwhile got done.

and then we’ve spent years since then with actualy development getting done 0 the pretty typical engine modifications and such (which is a basic requirement for any CE mp game), which somethings just haven’t been a priority for them it seems until recently. which really should’ve had dedicated manpower on them since development got on track in early 2015.

the main problem with all of this being – is CR needs to shut his fucking mouth. and CIG needs to tone down their hype machine in general. they’ve backed themselves into a corner month after month year after year and their fanboys make it all so much worse.

hype machine cycles for big AAA mmo’s are bad enough typically. we have pre launch hype levels that would be rather obnoxious for any game launch at this point except just for an alpha milestone. it’s rediculous. and it won’t end well for anyone involved.

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Space Captain Zor

People can debate back and forth about how long “short” means regarding development time of ANY genre until blue in the face and I’d still call it all academic and irrelevant. Development is fucking it up over and over and over until it’s not fucked up anymore and then you hope it’s fun. And all the human variables involved in that make it absolutely pointless to debate a right or wrong length of time. Debating or criticizing the internal decision making, however, is always fair game.

Annnnnnyway, what I read is that your fatigue and distaste for the bad PR, bad communications, irrational fan/critic base, and over done hype machine manifests itself in a far more intolerant attitude towards a situation that otherwise isn’t at all unique. Not saying common, just saying not unique.

I think Don Vu from Blizzard sums development up nicely in his recent post about Diablo 3 patch 2.6.1

Lastly, we iterate and repeat. Game development requires trial and error, experimentation, and reworks. Sometimes, these experiments don’t make it to the PTR because we’ve identified a problematic issue that makes a change non-viable.

You cite a lot of development hell and art that was created and now trashed or unused and I guess you want to keep making it a talking point. But, to me, it’s so mundane to game development that it’s also become irrelevant to keep talking about. The more we talk about it the more it make it look like we’re trying to assert that it’s a unique problem for CIG when in reality it isn’t. So, like, let’s move on to problems that ARE unique to them.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the problem is prioritizing art development over code engineering.

and prioritizing asset creation over making the actual fucking game.

so six years later we’re a year late on the first milestone that the lead dev think would be early access launch worthy.

5 years of constant concept art sales and we don’t even have a basic game loop yet.

why is that to be defended? if anything that should be an alarming thing. 5 year of microtransaction sales and the lead of the dev team doesn’t evne think what we’ve got right now would be early access launch state quality. you know the guy that is constantly selling us those multi hundred dollar MTs.

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Space Captain Zor

I wouldn’t agree at all that their art assets are a priority, they’re just seen more than anything else. Just because it’s the most publicly visible element of development doesn’t mean it’s the highest priority. Plus, artists seem to be more willing to go on camera in an ATV than others.

I mean, if they were to publish some actual numbers and we saw their ratio of art developers to everything else was upside down then you would have some evidence to theorize on, sure. But their delays don’t simply equate to a priority of art over all else. There’s just too many assumptions there.

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deekay_plus

that 40gb leak a couple years ago was 90% unseen assets on top of the ones we’ve seen.

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Space Captain Zor

Art is made in tandem with everything else. Artists are likely far easier to come by than engineers. Their artists have had a well developed pipeline for a few years now. All of that means yeah, they’ve made a lot of art. They will continue to make a lot of art.

Art isn’t a smoking gun, lol.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:” i’m not the one who mentioned them”

… but you keep arguing with non sense arguments comparing behemoth Publishers versus a company with 1/1000 of ressources 5 years ago. Nobody forced you to give such answer.

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styopa

Delighted to hear this. Actually, this increases my confidence that SC will actually come out and that it’s not all a con game. Or, more accurately, that the cast of characters running the show really is trying, albeit some would say incompetently, to produce the game they’re pitching.

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Tobasco da Gama

Well, the folks who shout “SCAM!” were always wrong anyway, and even this evidence (a scam doesn’t offer refunds) won’t convince them.

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styopa

comment image

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Joe Blobers

Quote Styopa:”Never attibute to Malice that which is adequatly explained by Stupidity”

…. that explain a lot, including this new fake “refund drama” :)

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Tobasco da Gama

Yeah, basically.

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BalsBigBrother

Oh boy I think this may wipe out my supplies /sigh

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Whale gets angry, whale gets his money back and as an extra whale gets his 15 minutes of Reddit fame.

In some ways Star Citizen is an obscene waste of money in our world with its troubles, but so is every major Hollywood movie also.

Wanting Star Citizen to fail is the same as wanting the MMO genre to fail, as so much is riding on it.

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Ket Viliano

No, SC, and Chris Roberts, have no such importance. The guy is plainly incompetent at project and expectation management. He could have done a Wing Commander type game, ***got it done***, and then gone on to add or expand on whatever seemed cool or doable in a time frame.

There are other games, there are other developers, there is a new generation of artists and engineers, and we, the audience, do not need to be constrained by the failures or inadequacies of the past. We can choose to look for and enjoy other works.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Star Citizen does have that kind of importance. People might not like it, but 159 000 000 dollars is 159 000 000 dollars. It matters, even outside the genre.

If Star Citizen is a success, you can bet that it will be reflected beyond Cloud Imperium in the stock of pretty much all MMO publishers who are trading in stock market.

Investors will be more interested opening in the purses – including to that new generation.

The genre needs big success stories. Others can surf on the wave of the success of Star Citizen – assuming it will be one. If it isn’t, it will hit the whole MMO business, financing will dry, purses will be tightened.

Roberts didn’t want to do just a Wing Commander type of game – what Squadron 42 is – and a lot of people bought his dream and wanted a part of it. Whether they did a wise decision is another matter.

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Ket Viliano

No, I see it quite differently. The death of SC and the end of the has-been careers of yesteryear will open up market space, and money, for new developers and much better games.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

It hasn’t been shown yet that SC would be hoovering up money that would have gone elsewhere in the genre – or that it would be stopping new developers and companies from emerging.

And what would we get if SC would failure? In recent years, after the apparent failure of new triple A MMOs we have been getting survival games, gankboxes and MOBAs galore.

The failure of the biggest or second biggest – depending what you think of SWTOR’s budget – MMO project would likely just lead to even greater concentration on these frail wraths of MMOs: Survival games, gankboxes, co-op games and MOBAs.

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Sally Bowls

but so is every major Hollywood movie also.

Yesterday, I went to see the 35th Anniversay Wrath of Khan. (recommended ofc) The preshow interview with Shatner discussed how the first movie cost $40M and did not do great so they were going to not do a sequel. But a studio exec liked it, so said do it, but cheaper. So they did it for $11M. I have been in the MOP comment section so my mind immediately went to “so 6% of SC.”

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Star Trek: Beyond had a budget of 185 million dollars, 471 million dollars in 1982 dollars taking inflation into account.

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Armsman

Actually what happened was Paramount made a deal with NBC and STII:TWoK started out as a Star Trek TV movie (the deal with NBC was for 4 films over 3 years to be broadcast as ‘Special Events’). But Paramount changed their minds – and turned it into another feature film.

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Melissa McDonald

I’m not convinced Star Citizen is actually an MMO as we think of it. Could be a small # of players per server, in which case it’s no different than GTAO.

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Sally Bowls

I don’t think SC is a game it is a brand. My understanding is there is to be different software containing SC in the name to do a number of different things – persistent universes and private servers and small scale PVP/coop servers and probably others.

E.g. http://massivelyop.com/2016/02/10/star-citizen-clarifies-the-persistent-universe-and-squadron-42-split/

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Sushi Maru

There is absolutely no way this will be a single shard mmo, or even a large instanced mmo. In fact all the evidence we know so far points to the exact opposite of this ever achieving more than a Single Play game with Multiplayer elements. Small instance multiplayer with MAYBE a central economy, though I doubt they will even pull that off, as development efforts are headed in the direction of making webcams

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Squadron 42 is the single-player Wing Commander -type game, Star Citizen is a MMO with a single shard and instancing when player numbers at any area grow too big to handle.

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Godnaz

Advertised as a single shard game, which I have to see to believe..

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

most people that criticize the way this business operates do not want the game to fail at all.

but certainly statements like CR made to eurogamer and fanboy behaviour do encourage a desire for schadenfreude.

you’d almost think someone who spent $15k on a game actually wanted it to be everything they could hope for and more instead of just some bitter asshole hoping it fails. but in sc fanboy logic everyone who has a reasonable gripe is a goon send by derek smart himself to ruin the game for everyone ever!!!!!11111.

ayyyy lmao.

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Sorenthaz

That’s some insane levels of hyperbole right there, acting like Star Citizen is the last hope for the future of MMOs as we know it.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

It’s the flagship project and if it fails, the effect will be felt throughout the genre down to small indie developers.

It’s among those rare MMOs that get attention in major mainstream media.

If it’s a success, that will be boon for the whole genre at all levels and will make major publishers more open to funding AAA MMOs again.

Publishers are no different from movie producers – they flock to do what is currently successful and popular.

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styopa

I’d disagree. I don’t think the MMO business is riding on SC’s success; after all, it’s not even (AFAIK currently) slated to BE a real MMO. More like a multiplayer coop-thingy?

Now Kickstarter? Yeah, there’s a lot of KS credibility that’s already swirling around the bottom of the bowl of confidence – SC’s now-almost-inevitably-disappointing launch should pretty much put the final nail in that shitshow.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Star Citizen will be a MMO, Squadron 42 won’t be.

People seem to be confusing the limited scale of 3.0 with the full game in its launch condition.

Star Citizen will be using similar single shard and instancing as ESO.

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Witches

You’re talking about MMOs right? KS seems to be working fine for everything else.

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Sally Bowls

I agree, both that it won’t have much effect on MMOs and will affect Kickstarter. My thesis is that SC is going to be bad for crowdfunding on either extreme

If SC is mostly regarded as a failure (and it could happen), that will be bad for CF.

If SC is mostly regarded as a success (and it could happen), that will be bad for CF. At that point, who will want to invest in a future $3M Ashes of MLM project? That is barely 1% of the SC amount; people might think why not wait until a “real” KS comes along. I.e. a SC triumph raises the bar for KS projects.

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Greaterdivinity

Edit, actually, nevermind!

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Greaterdivinity
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Veldan

I’m stealing this

Alfredo Garcia
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Alfredo Garcia

That’s no moon…

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Utakata

Can almost here the The Blue Danube playing in the background with that. <3

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Ashfyn Ninegold

You win the internets for today.

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Utakata

Wait, we haven’t seen what Mr. Schlag will put out yet! Those are usually /popcorn worthy in themselves. <3

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Melissa McDonald

It took me a few seconds to figure out what that actually was.

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Devon

I thought it was some kind of sea urchin.

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Space Captain Zor

I’ve watched it for at least 2 minutes and I still don’t know what it is.

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Armsman

It’s what a lot of people are eating as they read this thread. ;)

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Tanek

Spoiler…

Popcorn. But wow it makes for a great image of some kind of alien attack.

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Space Captain Zor

oh, LOL! Well now I see it.

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BalsBigBrother

Oh god it’s leaping at my face 😱

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Ket Viliano

Lies!

I know alien attack eggs when I see them!

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