The Daily Grind: Do veteran gamers help or hurt MMOs?

You may recall that just yesterday, Justin was asking whether dinosaurs help or hurt MMOs. When I first saw the topic, though, my assumption was that he wasn’t talking about the animals that give ARK: Survival Evolved 80% of its appeal; I thought he was talking about, you know, players who are dinosaurs. Olds.

This doesn’t mean that they’re the evolutionary ancestor to birds; it means that they’ve been playing MMOs for a long damn time and thus have a whole lot of perspective on the genre. I have experiences and backstory that stretches back more than a decade. It’s hard for me to find major released titles that I’ve never played at all, and when most of my friends talk about playing a game, I can chime in with a “me too” and mean it.

The bright side is that we dinosaurs know a lot about the genre, but the downsides are many. We get calcified in our ways and can be inflexible, we can sometimes suck the air out of the room by having endlessly repeating stories, and we tend to have lots of opinions about MMOs. Not all of them might even be good ones. So tell us, readers: Do player dinosaurs help or hurt MMOs?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today’s Daily Grind!
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78 Comments on "The Daily Grind: Do veteran gamers help or hurt MMOs?"

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Mewmew
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Mewmew

Generalizing them as a whole doesn’t work, as it doesn’t with any group. It depends on the individual.

My Uncle got me into gaming. He’s what you’d call a gaming Dinosaur. I like his stories about the early MMO days. I find them interesting. Though he tells me them in person and not rambling on while on a game.

Life willing I’ll be a gaming dinosaur one day. My experience grows daily, and I find that the experience helps me. Yes I’m more discerning in what I want, I’m not all fluffy eyed amazed and happy just to be playing online with others, I actually need good content. But that’s a good thing. We hold developers to a bit of a higher standard. We’re less likely to be suckered in and be fanbois or fangrrls (though it does still happen on occasion).

While dinosaurs may be thought of as stagnant, experienced gamers usually demand that gaming evolves and moves on. They demand new and different evolving experiences. This is all good.

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Rolan Storm

Depends on a player.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Exactly.

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starbuck1771

Exactly just like when SWG went through the NGE. Most Vets automatically tore newbs apart while I on the other hand was helpful gave away gear to the newbs except those who would carry on like they were entitled to free stuff. I hate Silver Spoon syndrome.

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Rolan Storm

Kudos. That’s how it should be I think.

I remember being newb and a lot of good folk I met. Met jerks too, but they are dull and not to be remembered. As for entitlement – there are people I just can’t believe.

oldandgrumpy
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oldandgrumpy

I started playing MMO’s with SWG so there starts and ends all my problems :)

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steve

I don’t think we oldtimers are any different than the rest of you. We’re all enthusiast weirdos here.

I can say I have never intentionally hurt an MMO for any reason related to my age.

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starbuck1771

This is a loaded question. They help but at the same time they can be a burden just like a rookie player. Ask anyone who was around when Star Wars Galaxies went through the NGE transition.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

I have not found that there is any solid correlation between age and disposition (happy or grouchy) either in life generally, or among people I have played games with.

My observation is that people who are crochety and grumpy and bitch about everything usually are like that from day one. When they are younger, they bitch out of ignorance. When they’re older, they bitch from experience. There isn’t a whole lot of difference in how much they bring down a game or a community at the start or at the end, and they tend to sap the good feelings from everything they play.

People who generally are happy tend to find something to be happy about in every situation that they are in; and that extends to finding something to like about every game they play. They may move on after a time if a game doesn’t offer much that they like, and that is the big difference between the happy players and the grouches. The grouches never move on and just hand around bitching forever, about everything.

And if the grouches ever are forced to move on, they find something to bitch about wherever they wind up too. The happy people may not stay forever, but they’ll usually be happy one way or another no matter where they are.

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Bryan Correll

I have not found that there is any solid correlation between age and disposition (happy or grouchy)

Yep, I’ve always been grouchy.

Siphaed
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Siphaed

Hurt. At least in respect of “nostalgia” and older game features. I all the time see vanilla WoW as superior in every aspect to the post-WotLK era. And I do think that the GW1 crowd severely hurt the GW2 launch image by the constant comparison and degradation against the game because of the significant differences between the two.

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Rottenrotny

Eh, I’m glad veteren MMOers are still around because we’re part of the player base that the devs need to cater to and thus some semblance of old school MMORPG still exists in most games.
If it were nothing bu new players the games would likely be arcade-y casual fests.

What if vanilla WoW came out this holiday season? Would it be a huge hit like it was in 2004? Probably not I’m guessing. It’s too hardcore of a game for gamers these days.
But since it came out way back then and a lot of us were there for that and still hunger for that type of game design. If we weren’t here to demand that it probably wouldn’t exist in 2017 MMOs at this point.

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Bryan Turner

If Blizz released a Vanilla WoW server I bet they nab 2 million subs instantly.

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Bel 🆚 Floors 51-60

As a veteran mmo gamer… I feel like I probably hurt games because I have super high expectations. I expect the game to do something new… but at the same time also include every cool feature I ever wanted in a game over the last decade and a half.

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David Goodman

I’m an old :( So, I think I am a biased source when I say that I do think we’re good for games :)

Veteran gamers, just like everyone though, come in many shapes. Some of us are polite and happy to share our knowledge without being pushy. I like to think I am in this category (but I may be wrong!)

Others, may be impatient and toxic to anyone who doesn’t have their breadth of knowledge of basic MMO mechanics that games are built on, and they can have a very negative impact on a new player’s time.

So in conclusion, pickle sandwich roller derby.

styopa
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styopa

Is it easier to sell products to an ignorant audience? Sure.

Would games that sold well in 2005 necessarily sell well today? No, I think as an audience/community, we have a far more sophisticated idea of what we want to see from a game – what works for us, what doesn’t – making us tougher, more skeptical customers.

I certainly believe likewise that the era of The One True MMO (that everyone plays) is gone forever, which is a damned shame. But I’m hoping nevertheless that a healthy niche audience of say a million can be an interesting enough market to attract developers of at least AA-grade titles durably enough that such a game is worth my time investment.

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Schmidt.Capela

a healthy niche audience of say a million

In the current market, and for a non-F2P title, that isn’t a niche audience. If you want to reach that many players, you need to make a mainstream game.

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Jack Pipsam

Having veterans is great, the problem is that there isn’t a steady stream of new players.
The issue is a lack of balance.

Only time I think it’s an issue is when people say over 30/35+ don’t quite appreciate what it’s like to grow up on the internet or the realities of it. I see a lot of “well just take away phone or computer ect”, but so much of what we do from school to just organisation for movies as teens is related to the net. For better or worse (and it could very well be worse) those under 25-30 like me have the internet in our blood, I don’t know a world without a always-on connection. Only problem is those older attempt to legislative and suppress what is our lives.
Although I feel like I have gone off onto a totally different topic now, my bad. Back to MMO’s, yeah having veterans is great.

Stories of pre-2006 (retro in my book lol) MMO’s of odd sandboxes, plays in SWG, running around EQ1 without a mini-map, online resources, discs to install expansions, old guild focus, old raid ideals is all so odd to me and I love hearing all that. But I can’t help but also get the sense that there might be a bit too much “things used to be better”. Take vanilla wow, never played it, too young. So when I try out the emulator, not sure I quite ‘get’ why it’s better. Same with SWG, not sure why it’s meant to be really better when I only knew NGE.

All that is fine, wonderful even. But it’s annoying that people tell me sometimes that I am playing or enjoying the “wrong” version of the game. I always hear MMOs used to be better, but I am not sure I believe it tbh.

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steve

I always hear MMOs used to be better, but I am not sure I believe it tbh.

If modern MMOs weren’t better in many ways, we’d still be playing those MMOs, but it’s not all nostalgia. We lost a great deal of what made this genre a great place for people to hang out and interact with each other. We also gave up a lot of our power as players (Our “agency”) and wound up with MMO themparks.

I think innovation and progress tends to run in cycles, and right now I see the survival clone infestation as similar to the MUD proliferation prior to the MMO era. Survival games are rehashing many of the systems MMOs left by the wayside. Zones are back. Dropping stuff on the ground is back. Incredibly hostile world environments are back. Once a few current technologies mature just a bit I think it’ll all come together again. I think there are enough people who don’t want to play a murderhobo simulation who will craft a new MMORPG in the survival sandbox mold.

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CthulhuDawg

I’m with you on everything except for one very important point. Old Freeport is superior to new Freeport, end of story. :D

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Darthbawl

:P

old_school_black_design_mouse_pad.jpg
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Ket Viliano

Needs roller ball mouse with PS/2 connector.

:P

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Schmidt.Capela

I have a Microsoft white roller ball mouse with two buttons and a serial connector in my closet, next to my Sidewinder flight stick with a joystick connector (the one that looks like a serial port connector and that I have no way of connecting to my current computer). Also, my current keyboard is a 1st gen Logitech G15 that is over a decade old already (it still works perfectly fine, including the macro functions, so I see no need to replace it).

atherenlightspeed
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atherenlightspeed

The ideal is a mix of veteran and new players. Game knowledge from the vets, and new player ideas and enthusiasm make it all more fun for everyone. I do think it helps to play a wide variety of games so you get a feel for what’s out there and you don’t get too stuck on the rules and fate of any particular MMO.

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Utakata

I am an Old…

*Removes a gray hair strand from left pigtail*

…I guess I am freely admitting it. But I am always advocating for games to move forward. Perhaps I hurt others whose ambitions are to move games to “back in my day”. O.o

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steve

Back in my day, the next thing was still going to be the best thing. The good old days weren’t all that good, in spite of a great time being had.

But forgive me if I’m pleased to see developers going back and revisiting our old ideas without the tech limitations of that era. Some things were lost along the wayside in the push for blood sport arenas and Raid or Die, and we have a much better canvas to work with now.

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Utakata

But you try and tell the young people today that… and they won’t believe ya’… <3

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Bruno Brito

Well, i guess they both have their “niche”. I have a small issue with MMOs becoming triple A titles, when they are made to accomodate too many playstyles. Even small games have their place, and their players shouldn’t feel left out of the scenery.

That being said, i’m completely against games not moving forward. I get the core point of the legacy crowd on WoW, but no, if the company doesn’t change the formula yet they are still making money, it means they have something that’s correct in there. No need to reinvent the wheel.

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Pandalulz

In my particular situation as an old, I kind of feel like I’m more irrelevant than anything else.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

no one but massively commenters are reading my ranting in the void either lol

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Tobasco da Gama

Elitism, in my experience, is completely uncorrelated with actual veterancy.

Estranged
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Estranged

True! The venom can be just brutal from the younger bunch. Listen to some Overwatch audio!

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Darthbawl

Leave us dinosaurs alone! And yes, I do consider myself one, 44 counts, right, right? I’ve been playing games since before some of you young grasshoppers were even in diapers. :P

Estranged
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Estranged

Darth, I’m 43 myself and have seen/played every generation of video games. It has been amazing to experience the graphical and systems evolution of the genre.

I don’t pine for the old days!

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’m 35 years old and been gaming since i was 2 years old. lol. i often question the popular opinions and narratives presented in whatever medium we are using to spin things this decade. lol.

and something i noticed about idk 5 or 6 years ago is back when we were youngens we used to consider game devs and the gaming press to be god like in magical ways. but at some point we looked behind the curtain and not only realized that they were just mere mortals, but that these gods bleed.

and well as klingon religion goes, they “killed” their gods. >> (not this is not a death threat against the press or game devs).

not that i care for the “new” “gods” either.

as zephram cockrane said “don’t try to be a great man, just be a man, and let history decide otherwise”

Estranged
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Estranged

DK, yes, I suffer from knowing too much.

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Darthbawl

Gaming since you were 2? What the heck were you playing? :P

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Utakata

I get 1984 when I plug in the numbers. Perhaps something on a Commodore 64? Or some Atari consul hook up? o.O

Estranged
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Estranged

Utakata – I loved my Commodore 64 so much, opened a new creative world for a very young and isolated country boy.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

some fly through the markers game my dad made in college lol. i only have the vaguest memory of it tho a clear one, and it may be my earliest memory.

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Schmidt.Capela

I started with Pong myself, which I believe would be fairly playable for a 2 years old child. I mean, nowadays children that age already know how to use a touchscreen.

One of the consequences of having played games so long is that I don’t care much for graphic and audio definition. I’m perfectly fine nowadays playing games with SNES-quality graphics, and I actually prefer when games neither go for graphical realism nor use full voice-overs (I’m fine with Sims or Animal Crossing-style voices, which are an unintelligible mumble just to set the pitch and tone, but I don’t quite enjoy full voice-overs).

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Bruno Brito

Here i was thinking i was old.

mystwen
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mystwen

I am a female and a dino in both senses of the word, age (58) and how long I have played. Hubby and I played WoW for quite a long time, ran a guild, and had fun. But I don’t expect other games to be WoW.

I like to try new games. I’ve had fun in WoW clones like Rift, sure. But I’ve also enjoyed Secret World, and love the heck out of Black Desert (AA broke my heart). I’ve dabbled in some much smaller games; even the one with the mostly naked girls, and it was a blast!

I don’t think we hurt. I am usually willing to help in chat, or in the field. I don’t rant in the forums all the time. However, if I think something is completely out of hand, I will give my opinion, but that is not often. I don’t fit into a stereotype, and I like it that way, but call me a dino if you like.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’ve largely stopped giving feedback in places devs will see it, as they generally disregard me and people like me anyway it seems. i choose to rant in places they generally don;t look or wouldn’t see like irc channels and on massively comment sections. lol.

i also generally don’t do game specific subreddits due to teh nature of the voting system even when devs are present on the game sub. which i do remind myself why i don’t do them so to say every so often. and even the general game subreddits i do for more amusement at what the people on them believe about games and gaming vs my own experiences with specific games or gaming culture or developers, which is often pretty amusing stuff. that and tracking the latest qq fest review bomb shit storm lol.

mystwen
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mystwen

Same here. When I get word of something going on, I’ll check out a game forum, or even reddit, if it’s referenced. But I rarely comment, even here. Ranting does no good for me, and heaven knows I tried with GW2. Gave it up after that.

CapnLan
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CapnLan

Depends on the game and community. Over in Warframe, the vets tend to seek out new players and help them out. I got tons of help when I first started from random people. I was actually overwhelmed with all the offers for help and free stuff. It made getting through some of the tougher areas of the game (well, tough for new players anyway) far more bearable and even enjoyable in some cases.

Meanwhile in Elite Dangerous, I found the vets to be outright hostile to new players. Don’t play the way they want you to? Be prepared for a lot of “git gud scrub” and “lol uninstall” followed by a murderhobo smoking you in his overpowered FDL because reasons. It’s why I play in Solo and Mobius PG these days. As much as I love Elite as a game, the “community” is really more of garbage heap. Avoid the forums too. They’re even worse than standard MMO forums.

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Schmidt.Capela

From what I saw in ED’s forums, at least two groups with a mindset similar to EVE’s Goons decided to call ED their home. Most of the offensive and aggressive posts I saw in the forums came from members of one of those two groups.

ceder
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ceder

When I see the steam forums for ark and all the newer/recent players making all manner of complaints based on a lack of experience or disinformation and the ones playing for a while then make the efforts to help them understand the game better. I have to say no.

But then I think on the fact that, many complaining are doing so based on their veteran experiences from other games as a comparison or with expectations groomed from them and then I have to say… hmm maybe.

So really this is a which came first, the chicken or the egg sort of thing.

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Melissa McDonald

In LOTRO at least they are a big help. Got a question? Ask World chat channel. You’ll have an answer in seconds. Without snark.

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Paragon Lost

What server is this? Because that’s one of the things I am sad about since the server merge of 2015 is all the troll like snark and other crap I listen to when I do have WC on, is is growing less and less.

I’ll agree that you will get helpful answers if the chatter can stop trolling each other over politics etc, but there is a lot of snark you have to weed through to get that answer anymore.

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Tobasco da Gama

Well, you’ll get the snark as well. But at least it comes after the answer most of the time. :P

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MesaSage

The only people-dinos hurting MMO’s are the ones creating them.

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Schmidt.Capela

As a fellow dinosaur, this is why I try to keep my suggestions to things that align with the game’s stated vision (if the game has one, or if one can be clearly discerned). For example, I might dislike EVE due to its PvP element, but I will never suggest the game drops its PvP because that would go against everything the game stands for.

On the other hand, it’s infuriating seeing new devs repeat old mistakes. If a dev wants to add to their game a feature that failed in games past, at the very least said dev needs to identify why it failed in the past and make appropriate changes; anything less is the very definition of insanity.

As for whether dinosaurs hurt games: not really. Dinosaurs are no louder than PvPers, or raiders, or roleplayers; if the dev isn’t able to notice these segments of its player base are louder than their numbers would indicate, that is a dev failing, not a player base flaw.

Estranged
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Estranged

Depends if you are flexible or static. Flexible vets help and evolve, static vets are more likely to hinder progress and drag everyone down with “the good ole days”…

Memories are good, but obsessing on them is toxic.

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FreecczLaw

((Deleted by mod. Please review our commenting code.))

Estranged
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Estranged

Free – 😂.

I become saturated with the same ole systems, guess I’m a wild old man! Really can’t play tab-target games at the moment. Taking a break so I’ll be refreshed for Camelot Unchained.

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angrakhan

I think it depends on the, ehem, dinosaur. I’m 44 and I’ve been playing MMO’s since the launch of EQ1. However, I don’t have it fixed in my head that new games have to hold to old tropes. For example, tab targeting and auto-attack combat can go ahead and die in my opinion. Honestly I love this new breed of MMO-like co-op games which from a technical standpoint are a lobby shooter, but the lobby is integrated in the game world.

The Division is a prime example of this. The Division would, in my opinion, completely fall apart as a true MMO (classic sense of EQ or WoW). Imagine if instead of walking out of the base with you and your 3 team mates to fight the mass of gang bangers, pyromaniac psychopaths, and paramilitary fascists, you walk out and see 200+ agents camped around spawn points hoping to kill the guy they need to complete their current mission. The whole feel of the game goes from ‘hero’ to ‘military police state’.

So, I’m willing to evolve and try out new things. I’m not stuck in some preconceived notion of what an ‘MMO’ is. I doubt I’m the only one.

Estranged
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Estranged

angrakhan – brilliant! I feel the same about Destiny 2. Sure is nice not having to fight for resources and seeing too many Guardians would go against the scarcity lore of the game world.

Confession: I believe FPS combat is more interesting.

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Bryan Turner

To be fair MMOs are an aging industry, most of the people they appeal to are probably in their 30s and up, are conditioned to WoW combat.

This becomes a problem in a game like GW2 where the elitists just assume vets used to WoW are baddies. This means that any game that tries to break the mold will have their niche players that are good at the mechanics but crap all over the millions of WoW vets that will close their wallet to anything out side of their comfort zone.

This industry then is condemned to WoW clones played by jaded WoW vets trying to get the magic back, vs vets that are maverick that cling to games like GW2 and protect their quirky ways to the detriment of a healthy population that needs to draw in some of these WoW vets.

Veterans are a dual edged blade for the MMO industry for which it is made and catered toward, these vets are resistant to change and when they do change they discourage vets from an older play style to participate in their End Game PVE because they build their characters in non META ways to closer approximate what they had before.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

.

listen here noob.png
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Utakata

…did the gentleman on the left get a medal for going to the bathroom? o.O

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wratts

As a fellow dinosaur, think I began playing MMOs fairly seriously with EQ in ~2001, I can definitely see the harm we bring. We have certain expectations and frustrations going in, both of things we want/expect to see and things we dread seeing.
I can’t count the number of MMOs I’ve tried and uninstalled in a half hour either because they were missing things (inverted mouselook) that I refused to do without, or bought into a trope I’d seen a million times (traipsing sylvan elves) and couldn’t stomach another. Those might have even been good games, but I couldn’t make myself find out.

It’d be near impossible to make an MMO today without thinking about the ‘veteran’ market who’s played WOW, and probably a half dozen of the others. Knowing what those players care about is absolutely going to influence whatever vision you were working towards. Of course, without those players there’s probably also no market to support your game

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i mean there’s many factions of veteran mmo players with various feedback/desires cliches. from the “this game must have raids” people to the “i demand ladders for instanced arena pvp” people to the “this game will fail without rvr and three factions” people. and beyond.

certainly the above examples have helped shaped the downturn of the genre as it’s design has turned incestuous as developers trade creativity and innovation for bending over backwards to appear to appease the most vocal and loudest “fans” of their games (who forever claim that developers don’t listen to them and that’s why their games have “failed”).

in the wake of such paradigms there have grown other factions – those that remember certain other classic mmo’s and get excited when a developer seems to be playing off those games’ design elements. or when a developer starts talking about less vertical or horizontal progression. tho generally we get legitimately dissapointed when the developers were only paying lipservice to features they had no real intention of giving us, and certainly didn’t deliver on. further fueling the demise of the mmo genre as we knew it.

while for new players the magic we once felt when we were newbs is stuffed into a mountain of neverending gates amounting to tedious chores and unfun game play in terms of the moment to moment experience. which is certainly stuff that alot of vets demand (if you haven’t worked for it how can you feel a sense of achievement/entitled brats wanting instant gratification memes), while alot of other vets just have time or patience for that bullshit anymore (look at the downfall of wildstar for example).

and then there’s the veteran devs. even the ones that once had super creative design ideas once upon a time have since largely phoned it in. and for the most part most of these people continue to do so without a publisher to blame for that paradigm in their various kickstarter game dev projects. certainly they’ve polluted the genre with their “contributions” to this genre and what it became.

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Sray

Yes, they kind of do. I find that most player dinosaurs tend to bitch the loudest about how “there’s no innovation anymore”, and “the games are all the same” yet are usually the first to balk at innovation when proposed, and loudly reject anything that deviates more than 3 or 4 percent from the formula set forth by Ultima, Everquest, and WoW decades ago. Unfortunately, these guys are the loudest, and their approval is often highly sought after by developers; so we get a bunch of junk that doesn’t move the genre forward whilst those who loudly oppose change whine about wanting change.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

coudl it be that they are different groups of people voicing feedback at different times? look at my post below for examples.

it does seem to me that the people who oppose change tend to win the favour of developers tho. and why not? it’s easier to appease them than to be creative.

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Sray

I’m thinking more when you can look at the record of statements of individuals, you see a pattern of whining about “games today” while rejecting actual change, as opposed to lumping everyone into a large group. There is definitely a tendency among a lot of long time players to complain about the sameness of today’s games while they oppose real, substantive changes to MMOs and/or the stale MMO formula.

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thalendor

To be fair, there’s probably a certain segment that complains about “games these days” for whom one of the major problems is how either a particular game or MMOs in general have changed over the last decade or more. Given that perspective, you could expect someone like that to resist further “innovation” as well. So I don’t necessarily view complaining about games these days and resisting innovation to be contradictory, depening on where someone is coming from, particularly if what someone desires is not the current form nor a new form but a prior form of a game or feature.

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Sray

Again, not a lot of time to get into subtlety because of work today, but I was talking more about guys whining about stale products while resisting change.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

idk that there are much games in the genre in a today’s games’ sense. there hasn’t been much releases in most recent years and alot of the last series of releases all had various flaws and quality issues in places they “innovated” at all while generally riffing on the same old design tropes that have encumbered the genre that their lead devs are known for in previous games they’ve worked on.

idk that slapping action combat on what other wise amounts to a wow clone is particularly innovative either. i mean if anything based on my experience with ue4 and to a lesser extent unity it’s actualyl less work to having aim based combat. ofc few of these developers take on the work to make the gunplay of those action combat models actually half decent despite beating their chests loudly about how riffing on shooter controls is somehow a game changer (despite oftne having more yawn inducing pve than tab target games and some fo the more unreliable pvp in the genre).’

certainly it might appear that the same people who talk about how tired they are of this or that mmo trope also resist any innovations to the genre. idk for me it appears as if it’s different groups of competing customers – people who want tropes that have been regularly implemented over the past 10-15 years vs those that do desire change and devs pay lip service to only to ultimately not deliver on that lip service.

for me i went back to playing games the wrong way to an extent, such as i did with wildstar, and enjoying them for that, despite the intentions of the devs and the feedback factions in teh fandom and forums. some games that’s not really possible tho like ffxiv which for the most part seems to innovate on how it can dictate to the player what to do at all times before he can do what he wishes to do at any given time.

which both of those games pander to the types you mention in different ways, one with much better success than the other, being the one i dislike more and find unfavourable to my desire for freedom of play and agency in teh gameplay world i guess and the other simply not providing much avenues of gameplay for us or making us a focus, i guess i will sit out and go play teh sorts of mmmo like games that mmo dinosaurs don’t consider mmo’s at all for w/e reason >>

tl;dr imo it’s mostly idfferent groups, but for all i know you might be right.

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Sray

You’re right that there’s different groups out there, but when I’m sneaking off to the head at work to type out a response on a gaming site on my phone, I often don’t havw time for that type of subtlety lol.

But you do remind me that there is also another type of dinosaur that I believe we both are to some degree or another: the dissatisfied type that want to knock it all diwn and build something new on the ruble of what’s left behind. The individual’s degree of desire to do so will vary.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

eh i don’t want older games i tend to not love to die. i just want to see fresh blood be given the power to innovate like the good ol boy rockstars once were.

i’m tired of seeing what name is leading what in a new mmo, then looking at their resume, and seeing the same design tropes from them in their old projects that are tiresome.

even worse is someone like raph koster tho that once made a very imperfect but impressive set of design elements in swg’s overreaching economical model, then phone it in with doing what the rest of the genre was doing for the next decade, only to copy pasta fucking landmark’s shitty ass crafting/economy once freed from teh yoke of publishers.

to me the former is awful, the latter is even worse.

but i don’t want those games to die. rather just give us fresh blood with fresh takes on the genre, maybe one that works towards the ideal of virtual worlds instead of monetization driven skinner boxes they’ve become in teh most cynical and cold fashion possible.

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Sray

Keep forgetting Poe’s law… was making a dramatic overstatement about for the lulz.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

eh maybe it’s overstated when it comes to us, but look at poor armsbend over there looking for a cleansing apocalpse. lol

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Dividion

As with most things, it depends on the person. Not all veteran players have the same experience or willingness to use that experience to benefit others.

If you’ve been with the same game for a really long time, you may have built up a valuable store of experience that could benefit new players. There are some who will gladly share the information, and there are some who will horde it and use it for personal gain.

If you’ve played tons of MMOs over the years, you may intrinsically know how certain mechanics could play out to make a game better in the long run, or maybe make it more appealing to players looking for a good MMO. Maybe the devs will even be open to those suggestions and include them in future updates.

In the cases where you can find veteran players willing to share not just their knowledge of how the game works but they also get you excited about the game and make you want to stick with it because it’s a fun and rewarding experience, then you really see their worth.

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Wolfyseyes

As something of a wee babby dinorawr (MMO’ing since EQ1, first major game FFXI), I kind of recognize the need to toe a line between being informative and opinionated without entering the “back in my day” muttering realm.

I like to think that my embrace of the new guard of MMO design and interest in where new stuff is going helps. Gotta keep up with these damn kids, after all.

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CthulhuDawg

That being said, Camelot Unchained and Pantheon can’t get here fast enough.

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RJB

This question is kinda pointless because you always have both kinds of ppl who do help n other who don’t. Plz don’t group everybody into the same category it’s the most ignorant thing you can do when reffering to groups of ppl

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Sray

If we’re forced to endlessly parse definitions, we can never have any sort of meaningful discussions. At some point, you just have to toss out a label and say “if you got problems with that, deal with it: that’s the cost of free speech.”

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