Destiny 2 struggles to find a solution to raid grouping

One of the reasons raiding continues to be a sore spot in the MMORPG community is that it’s difficult — if not impossible — to find a good solution to bringing inexperienced players up to speed with veterans without frustrating both groups. It’s an issue with which Destiny 2 is currently grappling without a graceful reply.

Instead of using a traditional raid matchmaking system, Bungie’s answer to the raid grouping conundrum is by using “Guided Games.” These attempt to replicate a mentor-mentee relationship between the masters and novices, but so far it’s not working as planned. Players are being thrown together with others from around the world (raising language barriers), some can’t or won’t use voice chat (which is problematic on consoles), queues are quite long for novices, and experienced raiders feel resentful over having to bring new players up to speed over and over and over again.

Some players have turned to subreddits designed to better match up prospectives, although gear score comes into play more strongly here. It’s also been suggested that the studio offer much better rewards for guides to incentivize experienced players into joining the Guided Games queue. It will be interesting to see how the raiding scene shapes up once PC players and their almighty keyboards join up later this month.

Source: Polygon
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22 Comments on "Destiny 2 struggles to find a solution to raid grouping"

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steve

Ah, the principle conundrum of the raid or die set — how to handle the churn.

Best of Luck, D2.

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NeoWolf

Well there is one question Destiny and indeed any MMO ever has failed to ask themselves and that is. “Does everyone actually WANT to raid”?

Psst the answer isn’t YES.

;)

The sooner they all realise this instead of trying to find ways to force or coerce or lure us into it, the happier we will ALL be.

Its bad enough they ruined Nightfalls (Gee how do we make Nightfalls more interesting..hmm I know we’ll stick a timer on them, everyone LOVES timers!!!!…dum da dum dum DUM), without trying to force everyone to raid.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

I like raiding, though in limited amounts. I mean it depends how long the raids are. Fortnite put out content that literally took 4 hours for a group to do all at once, 4 hours! It was timed so there was no speeding it up and there was no doing it in pieces or different sessions, that 4 hours needed to be done in a single sitting. Needless to say I never took part.

Normally raiding can have some of the most challenging combat there is to try and overcome. I’m fairly good at shooters once I learn the individual game systems and quirks, I like the challenge of a good co-op raid.

So the answer IS yes, a lot of us do like raiding. It is nice to do the more difficult content in a setting with other people.

I don’t like raiding that requires voice chat, I’ve stated in the past *why* I don’t like voice chat, although if I was playing on consoles that didn’t have keyboard chat I would want to use voice chat again there, as much as I dislike using it (console voice chat is what killed it for me to begin with though). I understand that they’re not able to type to communicate there and so if you’re not using voice chat on consoles it’s pretty difficult to talk to each other.

Lots of us like the higher difficulty and needing to group up and work very well together that raiding entails. Don’t say that nobody likes raiding that simply isn’t true.

Though giving people rewards that you can’t get elsewhere that are *better* (and in some cases required in order to progress in the rest of the game) instead of simply different, I understand being upset at that. You do want sufficient rewards to make the extra fight worth it, although personally I’m good with visual rewards, stuff that looks different but isn’t actually better, some kind of visual thing you can have on your character that you can’t get elsewhere, etc.

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NeoWolf

It’s cool you like raiding, and to clarify I am NOT attacking raiding or those who like to raid. What I and indeed MANY (as expanded upon below) have issues with is the fact it is a one path endgame, when the game is not designed purely for one type of player or playstyle this is the exact SAME error many old school MMO’s made back in the day.

I would disagree the answer IS “yes” as you say because it isn’t (not being a jerk, if you read on ill explain). And not just because I say it isn’t but because the community (go read the bungie forums) say so. The number one complaint with this game atm and that bungie is aware of and has stated they are looking into is endgame and the lack of variety to it, its grind and the fact it all aims at raiding.

You see your making the same mistake Bungie has made, your assuming because you like it and you see others doing it that they also all “want” to do it, rather than feel they have no “choice” but to do it because their is no other avenue of progression.
If you look on their forums however you will see and read the truth of the situation, and that is by and large most people IF given an alternate choice would not raid at all. People want CHOICE.

Its a similar situation to MMO’s, raiders always assume everyone loves raiding because they themselves do, and because they see others doing it. They fail to notice that raiding being the ONLY endgame choice means people have little option because endgame for the longest time only EVER consisted of raiding. However once games started to provide choice and alternate endgames methods..Raiding suddenly became a hardly ever done niche activity for the minority. A fact attested too by many studios and developers over the years and Destiny is no different, it has just only recently realised this and has yet to adjust for it.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

I’m not a raider. I don’t want to raid. But I don’t find that anyone is forcing me to raid in D2. Is there gear you can get in a raid that gives an advantage in pvp? If that’s the case, then I would be bummed about it. Otherwise, I don’t care.

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NeoWolf

This highest power ranked gear comes from raid drops. So if you want the highest power level you have to do the raid for gear of higher power from the raid chests. And as Power IS what light level was if you want the best damage and the most resilience you need the highest power. So yes it has thing that will give you an advantage in pvp even if your only using them to infuse.

So in this respect they are forcing people to raid via necessity. Their “guided” games methodology is how they intend to lure non raiders etc..into it under the presumed assumption that those knowledgeable and capable in raiding will want to take them through the raids and nightfalls but again this brings me back to the original point I made..what IF everyone doesn’t want to raid? Then those people are forced to have a lower power level than everyone else.

And I know the typical response to this in an MMO is but they don’t need the highest ranke stuff if they are doing the highest ranked content… trouble is raids are not the only content where highest power level is useful in Destiny (or Destiny 2), it is useful in strikes, it is useful in pvp (trials, iron banner and in general) etc.. There should not be only one way to get max power.

My friends who raid for example are 305 ish they were 305 within a coupple or three raids. Me who doesn’t the best I’ve managed thus far is 288 and that is from a RIDICULOUS amount of grinding strikes, reputation packs, dailies and faction event grinding. My power is crawling up super super slowly. The highest ranked stuff I see so far is from doing Clan dailies for our guild (clan).

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deadsniper

You really don’t have to grind strikes. once you get around 290 light level the only things that going to give you upgrades are the weekly “powerful ingram” things and your Clan bonuses. My friend and I both hit 305 without ever killing Callus, in fact I know for certain 4 members of our clan that did so. (We have done plenty of nightmares, but I have done half of those with pickups). Timing has been off on trying to get 6 together for the raid though.

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NeoWolf

You pretty much do have to grind, not specifically strikes, but PE##s, challenges, dailies etc..etc.. not “just” for the gear but also for the purples to break down inorder to infuse your existing gear. Clan rewards have definitely provided the best rated stuff outside of a raid I’ve seen so far.

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LusitanGaming .

i’ve played D1 and all its DLC, and i played D2 quite a bit so far.

Guided games, are just not worth the effort, you can get groups faster in third party websites.
Nightfall strikes takes about 15/20m to get a group, that you dont know if they have any clue what they are doing, what language they speak or Power level.
Raids queues are over 1h currently, with same problems as nightfalls.

The worst part is that when you queue for guided games you cant do anything else, you cant go to a planet and farm public events a bit or patrols, you have to wait whatever time looking a your generic spaceship, and if you zone out to lurk the internet you might get kicked off the game for inactivity.

its just Awful, and the BETA tag it currently in under is just to cover their asses in how bad this feature is. this might be tolerated a bit by console players, cause, well i really dont know, but PC players will not tolerate this shit at all.

D2, is as D1 was when it launched, full of promises and no deliveries, the story is not that great, it explains nothing of important or does it explain story-arcs of characters we care about, and we left again with a bunch of questions with no answers. just cause you have a few more cinematics with poor writing, if i may say so, doesnt make it a better story.

I would strongly advice players on PC to wait until a few DLC are out before trying the game, the game will be cheaper then (most likely you will get the game + DLC’s) for the rpice of what u paying now, similar to D1), and with alot more stuff to do and features actually working like they hyped us about. Again similar to D1, it was crap at lunch but after a 3 DLC’s it actually become a good game.

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Jack Kerras

I feel like the real solution to this would be to have an achievably-difficult Baby’s First Raid as the normal mode, with a brutally hard hard-mode version released later on.

LFR was a huge deal for World of Warcraft, and making things reasonable for an everyday player is basically the whole way to make it so that your bazillions of man-hours making content for players can be enjoyed by… y’know, -players-.

There’s so much personal responsibility in this latest raid that carrying someone who doesn’t refuses to figure their shit out is a monumental chore, and ‘challenging content’ does not need to equal ‘monumental chore’.

I feel that this would be further relieved by SOME concession to overleveling in terms of Power; just like Destiny, Destiny 2’s systems full-on ignore your Power except to brutalize you when you’re too low. Once you reach the required ‘level’ to do content, you don’t gain an ounce of strength from there onwards, so it doesn’t matter if you’re 280 or 305; 280 content always feels the same, and for the most part, hit point pools in Destiny only get harder as you get deeper, which means your power never feels like it grows at all. It’s a key, not a measure of strength.

While I understand the reasoning behind this to some degree, being 305 and having the capacity to faceroll normal-mode raid content in some way would make it much less painful to deal with lower-leveled and less-experienced characters filling out a few slots in your raid. Further, it would allow people who will not or cannot engage with Destiny 2 sufficiently to actually learn raid mechanics and get good at the game to get powerful enough by sheer force of numbers to actually contribute, at least in the normal mode.

Hardmode’s last boss sits at 300 (which is max Power, with purple mods adding +5 in total). The above would mean that the easy-mode raid would operate at a significantly less-scary power differential for regular humans who managed to push to max. This would also mean that there -is- no way to gear up hard enough to get things into faceroll territory while a given chunk of raid content is current; later iterations of Destiny saw Light requirements for final bosses sitting at precisely maximum Light, with the Power system acting almost exactly the same way.

It’s a waste, I find, of a much-improved Light system, and even a change to this which would allow scaling a few percentage-points beyond content in damage and survivability could make the raid -much- more accessible to humans without making hardmodes significantly easier for tryhards that bitch about everything being Baby’s First MMO.

Y’know, despite the fact that hardcore players are a vast minority and that making content that is geared only to super-hardcore players is a prodigious waste of time and money.

So:

Make Normal mode easier to deal with, fewer personal-responsibility mechanics, easier to carry others through, and turn on matchmaking,
OR
Make LFR raids the true ‘easy’ mode, achievable with somewhat more effort than an XXL Strike, released a week after the normal Raid drops, with matchmaking like any other gametype.

Let Power scaling above the requirement help to a certain degree – it doesn’t currently.

Make it more accessible. I know other hardcore players hate that, but who gives a fuck? We don’t keep the lights on. Make a real effort to want what’s good for games you love.

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LusitanGaming .

i do agree they should have implemented it as a LFR, but they would have to not offer any rewards apart from shaders or mods.

Cause weapons now have fixed perks, and if you could get a weapon or piece of gear, by using LFR, and they have the same stats as normal raids, everyone would in uproar. gear tbh now is only a cosmetic thing so giving it in LFR might not be that bad, but weapons need to be out of loot roll. but just offering mods or shaders would be a better choice, people would see the bosses and their tactics in LFR, and then would be able to tackle normal and prestige at their own pace.

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WarlockJumpBestJump

Guided Games is a bad idea that fails to account for how players approach Destiny. Bungie believes players should complete raid, nightfall, and trials content with an established group. Bungie resisted matchmaking tools because they believed players were struggling to access content should find an established group.

Players want convenience. Playing with an established group is great, but if that group is unavailable or non-existent, they still want to play the game. the100.io, r/fireteams, DestinyLFG, and Xbox Live came about because players want to be able to raid even if their clan is busy or they have no friends in game.

Guided Games was compromised from the start because it’s centered around clans. It’s queue times will always be long and it’s utility to the clan will always been minimal. And it’s an automated queue and not a bulletin board type system like the100.io means you will get language and skill barriers.

This is a problem that has already been solved by third party sites. It’s a problem that WoW tackled with it’s bulletin board style group system. But Bungie obstinately refuses to accept these solutions and so myself and my clan are still using the100.io to actually play the game.

Reader
Ssiard

One of the reasons raiding continues to be a sore spot in the MMORPG community is that it’s difficult — if not impossible — to find a good solution to bringing inexperienced players up to speed with veterans without frustrating both groups.

This has been solved by World of Warcraft with the 4 different difficult levels to raiding (LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic).

Reader
Knox Harrington

You could’ve just copied and pasted the article from years back about Destiny 1 having the same exact problems. How is this a sequel again?

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Kickstarter Donor
Greaterdivinity

You’d have figured that they’d have a better solution to this problem by now…but I guess not : /

Hopefully they’ll figure something out and it will roll out with the PC release, because that sure doesn’t sound like something that’s terribly appealing to me should I want to run raids and shit one day.

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Major Glitch

When I look at the player count of Destiny 2 one word comes to mind: hemorrhaging. Destiny 2 doesn’t feel like a complete sequel, but more like a half-arsed dlc. To anyone thinking about getting this game, let me tell you what I WISH someone would’ve told me: just play Warframe. It’s better, and it’s free.

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Jack Kerras

There are tons of us that are waiting for the PC release to come out despite playing the PS4 release at the get-go. :) I cannot WAIT to get my hands on Destiny: Controls You Aren’t In Constant Conflict With Edition.

Also, it’s incredibly common for games that actually cost money to have an unbelievable first-day spike, after which they drop off to 25% or even 10% of that and hover there, slowly declining but boosting back up every major content patch or much-needed balance change, for many years.

This is totally normal for any game which is not A) free to play or B) World of Warcraft, and even WoW suffers for it despite being a ridiculous industry-wrecking titan.

I actually like F2P games more than most other games these days. Some of them are downright predatory, but there are a few (Warframe DOES spring to mind) that have this ridiculously great release cycle wherein there’s almost always something good on the horizon. DE really hit it out of the fucking park, and although Warframe doesn’t stay installed 24/7/365, it absolutely does eat up scads of my time.

Dantos
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Dantos

Im wondering how the PC release will affect things. Ive been wanting to try it, but have been waiting for PC. I never played destiny 1, since it was console only, and I really dislike shooting with a controller. As someone brand new to the series I hope it will feel differently than what alot of people have experienced. It seems like something right up my ally.

As for Warframe, I love it, but ive got like 1700 hours in the bloody thing, i need a break.

CapnLan
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CapnLan

Yep. I’ve been noticing a rather sizable amount of Destiny 2 refugees coming over to Warframe in the last week or so. Many posts and threads on both the forums and the subreddit. We Warframe vets are doing what we can to help all of them get adjusted, but there sure are a lot of them. Fortunately there’s a whole lot of us registered los…er, users to help everyone along.

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Chris Moss

I never played D1, but was very close to buying D2. Then I watched the Angry Joe review…. I can not believe anyone bought D2 after seeing the bullshit they pulled with it.

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mysecretid

I’ve stayed away from the raids in Destiny 2 because the final Crota raid in the first Destiny game looked notoriously complex to my eye (it included jumping puzzle sections, for crikey’s sake!).

I appreciate the warning that the D2 raids are something I should also avoid — at least until further notice.

Cheers,

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LusitanGaming .

the raids are fun, but this current one, actually needs teamwork and co-ordination, cause you have specific things to do in order to progress, so team work is a must and vo-ip is mandatory.

This raid for me is excellent, but no way it should be done by Guided Games, in its current iteration. they need to give us alot more tools in it, like option to make sure you the guides actually finished the raid before they pit themselves as guides, a power level option should be something the guides need to be able to select to filter out undergeared people.

Bungie, wanted this to become something the solo players could use to see the raid boses, but they should just made a LFR, instead of this.

Current systems is bad for guides and seekers. But the raid is actually awwsome

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