No, Squadron 42 isn’t going to release this year

All right, let’s be honest, you probably didn’t actually think that Star Citizen’s much-delayed single-player Squadron 42 was coming out this year. Around this time last year, it was confirmed to have been delayed; now it seems rather definite that it’s not going to be this year, either, as the most recent update on the schedule for CitizenCon confirmed that it will be the focus of the game’s holiday livestream in December.

So it’s probably not going to be on display at the convention later this month, either.

CitizenCon will be focused on Star Citizen version 3.0 and beyond, which the announcement in question stresses is very important to the development on Squadron 42 and vice-versa. There’s been some ambiguity about which release windows qualify as stated release dates with the single-player game in the past, but the big takeaway is that you’re not seeing the game this year. Next year is still open for placing your bets.

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169 Comments on "No, Squadron 42 isn’t going to release this year"

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April-Rain
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April-Rain

I can now see the end in sight, it really has hit the iceberg.

Logic would suggest the single player would be top of things to do?

It could be released and selling like hot cakes, generating much needed money and goodwill but instead its delayed indefinite and the sale of jpg’s will go on to the mindless followers who will keep this monster a float at least till next summer.

taojeff
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taojeff

It would be if they weren’t trying to push the tech as well as maintaining consistency between the MMO and SP in terms of gameplay. By that I mean they’re trying to have the same or a very similar in cockpit experience for both games as it were.

For example releasing SQ42 without the newer interaction system would have been much easier but would mean that there are two games set in the same universe with vastly different gameplay mechanics. But it has meant that 3.0 being postponed has also delayed SQ42 as it’s most likely being used to do wider bug testing.

They may well have made a mistake doing it that way, but until it releases we won’t know for sure. I would rather it be delayed a bit longer and be more polished than have something with the potential it has to be rushed out the door and become another example of a game that was released before it was ready. I think we have more than enough of those already.

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Iain B

How is Star Citizen already at “version 3.0”?

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mysecretid

As I recall, they started numbering the alpha releases because people wanted a way to keep track? Technically, this is “Alpha 3.0”.

Cheers,

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Tithian

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

Releasing SQ42 should be the easiest task among those they are trying to achieve. This is a single player experience that can be as scripted and limited as they like, since they can obviously skip all the multiplayer and open world MMO-like bullshit. They have already done the voice over and motion capturing stuff, which is the bulk of the expenses in a game like that.

The fact that they cannot show even this, is both troubling and hillarious.

Loyheta
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Loyheta

Ehhhhh I spent my money, I’ve tested, I’ve lost interest in testing. I’ll just play other stuff until this grabs my interest again.

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mysecretid

I’m pretty much there. I bought in at a level I could afford to lose, if it came to it, so now I’m just playing other games and waiting to see wht happens.

I do actually believe Star Citizen will release at some point, but the hype train on this project has gotten so out-of-control at points that — unless they grant everyone who buys the game superpowers — the game will never live up to the launch expectations it has created for itself.

Cheers,

Reader

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PhoenixDfire

CSI :- Not coming this year like promised.
Me :- You still working on it?
CSI :- Yeah, but it’s taking longer than we thought.
Me :- *Shrughs* Oh well, I didn’t spend that much on it (and turns back to dodge thargoids in Elite:Dangerous)

oldandgrumpy
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oldandgrumpy

I learnt my lesson with SC in 2013 and my wallet has been closed ever since.
The game I thought I was backing in 2012 is not the game being produced. Maybe I will go and join the refund reddit :)

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Dread Quixadhal

inb4 RSI is “forced” to release an early pre-alpha build as “early access” for an additional $39.99 on Steam, which will get compared to No Man’s Sky and then serve as an excuse to push development back another year. :)

Whenever I see a giant project with overly ambitious goals, huge amounts of cash raised, and very little transparency about how things are actually going, I start thinking it smells like a cat box that needs to be changed.

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Space Captain Zor

Anyone ever watch the content on the Appendix discs with the Lord of the Rings Extended Editions? Tells the story of how all 3 movies were made back to back at the same time. And how Peter Jackson vowed never to attempt something like that again ever.

Development of SQ42 along with Star Citizen reminds me a lot of that. I stand in awe at these comments every time at how many people just over emphasize on such unthoughtful and illogical debates over the old estimated release dates. I have no problem with criticism where it’s due, such as towards their bad management and communications. But for real y’all. You want to know how much all these assertions of “but it’s been in development for 5 years, 6 years, going on 7 years” blah blah etc actually means in reality to iterative game development on a huge R&D heavy game much less two at the same time? Can anyone guess?

Who here thinks another studio could make BOTH games as pitched and to the current scope that CIG is shooting for within 3 years? 5 years?

7 years?

Name a studio. Name a developer. Name a publisher. Go for it. I’ll just start rolling my eyes in 3… 2…

I just don’t get how missed eta’s are so star spangled epic that it’s the same dead horse being beat to death over and over and over and over..

And now the notion that because Evocati testers are saying an expectedly buggy mess is confirmed a buggy mess the sky is falling and surely we’re going to get that buggy mess as our PTU release, which of course would be the EXACT point of a TEST UNIVERSE. Zoinks!

A buggy mess is what everyone signed up for if you’re going to touch this game during development. But go ahead and pretend like it’s supposed to be a finished product already. Don’t feed me any eye glazing crap about “oh but the developer said they were putting extra polish on it.” If you haven’t learned by now to do your own BS filtering while reading/listening to what ANY game developer says…

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Iain B

You act like the people here in the comments are the ones that forced CG to make all of these broken promises…

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Space Captain Zor

Did I say that? Ever? Here’s what I did say:

I have no problem with criticism where it’s due, such as towards their bad management and communications.

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Iain B

Yet here you are making excuses for CG not delivering on deadlines that they made themselves.

“Who here thinks another studio could make BOTH games as pitched and to the current scope that CIG is shooting for within 3 years? 5 years?

7 years?

Name a studio. Name a developer. Name a publisher. Go for it. I’ll just start rolling my eyes in 3… 2…”

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Space Captain Zor

I’m saying that because it is so far and as yet untried. What they are trying to do is something no studio has, which equates to what will be a considerable development timeline. Considerable is of course relative to the scope of the project. People seem to think that 5-7 years is considerable for this and they bank on that notion because of CIG’s piss poor internal estimates and public blustering that they could actually get it done that fast. I knew better than that when I signed up. I guess I’m a rarity.

The excuse of missing internal deadlines/estimates is in the nature of the industry. It’s iterative development. You iterate for as long as you have time + money until you either run out of those or you get it right. Does CIG have time & money to iterate till they get it right? For the moment I don’t know of anyone that can actually prove that they don’t. So what do I need to make excuses for? They are still developing. They miss a date because of it and set a new one, they have that right. No amount of bitching from the community or anyone takes that right away from them. You know what would? Running out of time & money.

Am I making excuses for their bad communication around those ESTIMATES? No.

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Melissa McDonald

Didn’t they also film the Hobbit movies in one big marathon of production?
When you have 2 very elderly leads (Lee and McKellen) you’re almost obliged to do things like that…

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Tufao

tl;dr RSI are false advertisers and you approve.

But no! A buggy mess is not what everyone signed up. Numbers prove you wrong. 90% of the signers of the RSI website does not follow the project. When stats were provided during the first releases of SC, already delayed and supposedly, eager backers to get their hands on gameplay, it took weeks/months, so they achieve just a tiny % of players downloading and playing the thing.

If “everyone” had signed up for that, RSI wouldn’t be so afraid to release stuff to this people.

And it’s not the backers who treats this game as a “finished product”. It’s Roberts who pretty much, abandoned the concept of “finished product” and decided that people have to swallow alpha and broken mess, basically forever, while in the past, told a different story (or even today, depending of what is the question, he will tell a different story).

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Space Captain Zor

Welcome to the year 2010+ game development industry. But yeah go ahead and label me an apologist when I did nothing of the sort. Every storm needs lightning rods.

styopa
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styopa

“Who here thinks another studio could make BOTH games as pitched and to the current scope that CIG is shooting for within 3 years? 5 years?”

False example.

The point has been that NOBODY could make the game that Christ Robbers has promised, every time he sees a new shiny thing he goes haring off after it. Nobody could build that fantasy-dream. Ever.

Certainly not someone who employs family as senior management and has effectively milked the crap out of his fanbase ahead of actually creating a single product.

The fact they guardedly released some code to their biggest most committed fans and THEY are saying it’s crap should be the final nail, I’d think.

And no, I’m not sure what school of metorology you went to, but NO storm NEEDS a lightning rod. Really ever? That makes no sense.

taojeff
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taojeff

So nobody has made a game similar to what they’re going for = impossible to do.

Hmmmm, yes. Guess cars, air-planes, satellites, cellphones, internet and electricity are all imagined since they’re impossible.

Just because it hasn’t been done doesn’t mean it’s impossible.
Can they do it? We don’t know yet.
If they fail, does it make it impossible? No, it just means they couldn’t.

styopa
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styopa

I am pretty sure you need to overreact more?

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Space Captain Zor

The shit storm in these comments certainly do.

But hey, I’m glad you know the future. Can you get me some lotto ticks pls? Thx.

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TheDonDude

I don’t think the sky is falling. Release dates will be missed, sure, and the game could still easily end up kicking ass.

But at some point you have to draw the line. The original 3.0 estimate was not just missed. It was so hilariously badly missed that it’s easy to think that something went extremely wrong. It’s ok to be annoyed by this.

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Space Captain Zor

Draw the line where? Based on what? Tell them all to pack up and go home?

Being annoyed by missed estimates in game development is a fact of life and yet for SC it’s the continued star of the show. And I can’t figure out why.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

idk any other game project that so aggressively and excessively misses their own deadlines as a rule.

do you?

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shear

Wait, wait, I know how to rebut this one… “Other devs don’t share their development so openly so you don’t know how many deadlines they miss”

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the thing is those deadlines aren’t share publicly, but they are very much held to account by publishers and investors.

just look at the shit show that was vanguard development for anyone doubting (which is a shit show just becuase smed paid out a buddy of his to make his shitty game after defrauding the fuck out of microsoft after they dropped the project, without even the parts of it where he was defrauding ms.)

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shear

Well, you don’t need to convince me, but this is what happens when there is no separation of power. Criss is responsible for everything, from budgeting to scope to design choices, and when he misses a deadline, he has no one to kick him in the ass.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i agree his lack of accountability is a real problem with the project. it’s omething the kotaky.co.uk articles really emphasized contributes to their development hell status i think.

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shear

Well of course, and it’s evident that he has a tendency to go off rails as was seen with Freelancer.

The worst thing is that CiG really doesn’t have an unlimited time to do this, funding is clearly slowing down, refunds are being denied now so they closed that gate which means that there was a considerable amount of them if they did that. The loan is due pretty soon. It could get ugly.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”The loan is due pretty soon”

You should read with extreme caution anything coming from the Clown wording/ranting. There is no refund refusal but individual case under investigation. Should they decide to reject them right away there is the 14 days period to do so.

CIG keep hiring. There is a Board Director with many seniors managers including his brother and those guys do have clear vision of what is needed, both in terms of estimated time and Finance. There is a reason why companies do not disclose account… Internet is full of “expert” able to handle project, always much better, at lower cost and faster than those with decades of experience (Board Director)…

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shear

There is a refund refusal going around now if you have bothered to actually look into what messages people are getting back you’d know that’s true.

I never claimed that I am better, or that I could do better. I don’t know where you’re getting that out. I am just stating facts.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”I am just stating facts”
… yea Shear, unproven facts from the Clown as usual.

Just read the last MOP article :”last week insinuating that CIG had stopped issuing refunds now that alpha 3.0 is in Evocati testing. You’ll be shocked to find out those claims have been rebuffed. We spoke to a representative from CIG who stated that the studio’s position on refunds has not changed at all”

But you are providing facts right? From a Reddit section who have generated the biggest fake refund ever :)

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Kevin McCaughey

I think you are putting your head in the sand. The sad fact is that, for most people, what this company is doing, have produced and (more importantly) has not produced, does not stand up to examination. It falls short to the extent that I now believe that the majority of people believe it is going to fail.

All of that is reasonable and these are reasonable conclusions to come to, Reader. So I think you should stop the personal attacks on every person that doesn’t share your belief. It just seems more and more desperate.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Kevin :”So I think you should stop the personal attacks on every person”
Before complaining to someone about how bad he is supposed to be, make some search… I do Not attack anyone and certainly not either everyone. Read again this section. Few comments, most about giving numbers that everyone can agree or disagree. Zero attack.

I also pinpoint Shear’s behavior by providing a counter argument… given by MOP themself. Yours conclusions are just what they are: speculations… and your “most people” are still a handfull of guys to be compared to +600.000 backers.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

>And now the notion that because Evocati testers are saying an expectedly buggy mess is confirmed a buggy mess the sky is falling and surely we’re going to get that buggy mess as our PTU release, which of course would be the EXACT point of a TEST UNIVERSE. Zoinks!

CIG has spun the state of 3.0 alot more positively than the evocati leaks indicate. on multiple levels, including live demo play at gamescom. the nature of those leaks indicate a state far buggier than would be reasonably expected based on anything CIG has shown or told us backers in the past some odd months.

CR himself on stage at gamescom said it was ready except for the delta launcher.

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Space Captain Zor

Like I said, filter the BS on your own. OR you can continue to hold them to every amazing thing they say and use it as fuel to keep that disappointment engine running.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

this is a good rationalization justification and apology for their shitty behaviour.

IT”S YOUR FAULT YOU EVER BELIEVED ANYTHING THAT CAME OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS EVEN IN THE SLIGHTEST! says the guy defending them.

nice. real nice.

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Space Captain Zor

You think I’m apologizing for it? That could not be further from the truth.

I’m just tired of the endless train of people moaning about it already cause it doesn’t change anything at the end of the day.

I haven’t said anything defending them. My talking points are fairly generalized towards the entire industry here.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

your entire OP is defending them if ever there was defending.

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Space Captain Zor

I’m defending iterative game development, sure. Not PR BS and bad communication. You need to know that for me that stuff doesn’t bother me. It slides off like rain on the windshield.

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Melissa McDonald

Do they make Rain X for spacecraft, there, Space Captain Zor? :-)

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Space Captain Zor

Yeah in lore it’s called Space X :P

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Koshelkin

Wasn’t this the Space Opera game which they wanted to release Holiday 2016?

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Greaterdivinity

As far as I know, yes. This was supposed to be the Wing Commander “spiritual successor, complete with pretty big-name talent hired for voicework/motion capture.

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Melissa McDonald

Andy Serkis for motion capture, or stfu! (laughing)…

Seriously, he is great at that.

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shear

Well, this isn’t surprising, it won’t come out next year either. Must suck for the guys who were only interested in SQ42.

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Bryan Turner

Sorry for my snarky comment, especially considering I get so defensive about GW2, I know a lot of people are believers in this game, I just don’t want to see them get ripped off.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Saw this in a thread on reddit,

Employee numbers since the project started:
2012 10
2013: 48
2014: 161
2015: 258
2016: 363
2017: 428
Total 1268 * $10,000 per man month (typical figure used in the industry) * 12 = $152 Million

However, according to this http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-10-10-rising-game-dev-costs-put-squeeze-on-mid-tier-studios it is probably closer to $13,500 per month which would put the development costs nearer to $205 million.

Using the latter example would mean costs are close to $70 million a year now, they don’t bring in anywhere near that sort of money. If that is the case I wonder how much longer this can go on for?

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Joe Blobers

I do not see really the point to shoot number as every one have different. Still about the one you picked on reddit and link provided, based on my own experience CIG is now closer from 35M$/year including tax deductions and have close to a year of cash ahead.
They have senior managers but also a lot of junior developers and spend not that much during the 3 years and half compared to current team size.

If the reddit numbers were correct, especially the 70M$ per year… CIG would be already history… and we have no visibility on private investors who do add to CIG financial balance. CIG keep hiring. You do not hire if you have a financial visibility of 2 quarters because it is costly and time consuming to hire the right profil and have very little impact on a short term scale to release a project.

But you are right, SC + SQ42 will cost +200M$ and indeed more because the company won’t stop after SQ42.
Such amount looks huge but really they are not because they are cumulative.

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roo woods

I think generally speaking he is right .The developers have a finite amount finance and development time if they employ that many people unless backers money keeps pouring into it ( which I can’t see being maintained the longer it takes ) . Given the money raised they probably have a couple of years to get a product out . Its becoming more obvious by the month Star Citizen is not going to be released next year and probably not the year after that .

That makes it imperative that they finish SQ42 as soon as possible because its success may be the only way that Roberts Space Industries will be able to finish Star Citizen without either going bust or having to be bailed out by an larger already established gaming developer .

They could of course buy themselves more time by making some of the development staff redundant but that would probably slow development even more .

Given the pace of development vs outgoings things are not looking good however you cut it .

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Joe read the article that is linked in the comment. You will see that $10,000 per month per employee is a number that studios have been using since 2000 to estimate development budget.
Or read this one https://kotaku.com/why-video-games-cost-so-much-to-make-1818508211

Such amount looks huge but really they are not because they are cumulative.

Oh god, not another person that cannot grasp such a simple notion.
How do you calculate the number of man months spent on the project over the last 5 years without adding up the number of employees for each of those years and then multiplying by 12?

If you have 300 employees on the project in 2016 that’s 3600 man months.
If you have 400 employees on the project in 2017 that’s 4800 man months.
For those 2 years you have a total of 8400 man months OR you can simply add the employee numbers and multiply by 12, like so
300 + 400 = 700 * 12 = 8400 man months. Simple.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Cmdr_cotic:”Oh god, not another person that cannot grasp such a simple notion”

Do not worry… I got it. What I said is that +200M$ sounds huge because it is cumulative but indeed is not that much compared to overall cost of a company.

Also as I said, everyone do have different numbers. Facts is that the number of 10 or even 13K$ does not match with CIG situation. If it was the case, CIG won’t exist anymore already.
Junior developer, taxes deducted, cost around 5K$ month not 10K$. Taxe deduction cover other housing infrastructure costs.

of course it is a mix of Senior and Junior but CIG financial situation based on others calculation give a totally different picture, definitively not scaring but under control.

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Oleg Chebeneev

You think every single CIG employee recieves over 120k a year salary?

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Nice edit.

Of course they don’t receive $120,000 per year. That’s the cost to run the studio divided over the number of people, it’s not literally $10,000 per person per month.

Seriously just read the article http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-10-10-rising-game-dev-costs-put-squeeze-on-mid-tier-studios

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Another one that cannot grasp that 1268 is only used for calculating the number of man months since 2012.

What is the world coming to?!

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Loopy

I don’t think those numbers are cumulative. So the total for 2017 is 428, not in addition to all the previous numbers. The cost you’re looking at is probably closer to around 50 mil per year. Subtract from this a lot of tax credits associated with business expenses, and the number becomes a lot more manageable.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Total man months since the project started is 1268, the only reason they’re added up is to derive the amount of man months, nothing more

10 * $10,000 * 12 = $1.2 million
48 * $10,000 * 12 = $5.76 million
161 * $10,000 * 12 = $19.32 million
258 * $10,000 * 12 = $30.96 million
363 * $10,000 * 12 = $43.56 million
428 * $10.000 * 12 = $51.36 million
Total $152.16 million

OR

1268 * $10,000 * 12 = $152.16 million

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”1268 * $10,000 * 12 = $152.16 million”

1268 * $90.000 = $114 million… versus 161M$
As you can see, depending on numbers, the picture is bad or good….

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Greaterdivinity

Those seem like studio total numbers rather than new hire numbers…why are you adding them all together rather than just using the most recent number?

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

It’s not my calculations, it’s from a thread on reddit. The number shown for each year is total amount of employees and is added to calculate total man months.

10 emplyees in 2012 at $10,000 per month = $1.2 million
48 employees in 2013 at $10,000 p/mth = $5.76 million
etc

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Greaterdivinity

But the numbers add up all the employees to reach that 1268 number, which doesn’t seem remotely accurate. The accurate number of current employees would be the 428 numbers.

Spoilers – people on Reddit are often wrong about a lot of shit, intentionally or not. And given that this is SC we’re talking about, it’s going to probably be more likely an incorrect hater or fanboy than not.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

The numbers are added up to make it simple for calculating the total man months spent on the project since 2012. It seems really simple for me to grasp, I’m surprised that other people are struggling with it.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

yeah idk, seems obvious to me why it’s added up too.

Estranged
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Estranged

Seem like a good way to estimate total costs. Pretty cool.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

yeah have to remember this method for future game cost estimates.

idk if it’s obvious but this should include the cost of infrastructure too i believe. stuff lik eoffice space, computer hardware costs and software costs, electricity etc.

Estranged
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Estranged

Overhead costs on 4 offices in high profile areas is really expensive. Yes.

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Joe Blobers

And taxes deduction are also pretty high. taking into account that 10K or 13K are just speculative and I do have very good proven corect numbers which are much lower… CIG situation = 1 year ahead of cash.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

throw in the regular convention appearances… the marketting costs they incur… the costs of their bullshot demo slices

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Armsbend

And all of the bullshit that they custom make. Models, desks, all that junk they have in the promo video backgrounds costs a lot of money when they are basically one-offs.

when you look at cotics reddit numbers, which seem reasonable, I don’t see any way this game wont turn out vapor. Like it almost has no path for success.

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Joe Blobers

The bullshit you are talking about is part of the marketing to match SC lore with visual.
Call marketing bullshit if you want… But it works pretty well for many companies based on the 10’s billions of $ paid yearly for adverstising and marketing budget all around the world.

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rafael12104

I thought this was a well known fact. Granted that for me, SC updates now are like watching an episode of rolling end credits so I don’t pay much attention.

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Greaterdivinity

By the time the initial game comes out, not even the fully completed version mind you but just the initial “this is the minimum we’re doing to consider the game ‘launched’ and we’ll work on the sun and moon we promised with post-launch patches!”, I’ll be collecting social security/medicare payments…if they’re not bankrupt, that is.

It’s real hard not to be skeptical as all hell about this with these constant delays. Remember when it was planned for a 2015 launch? And then that was revised to 2017? And now it’s slipping to at least 2018? I can’t wait to see when it’s delayed to next, it’s sure a roller coaster ride!

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they just finally removed the year ETA at all from their site. wether you want to take it as indefinitely delayed or they finally sobered up on dates is up to you.

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Tufao

Vaporware.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

I’m sure the void will be filled with something….

the  ol' 42 skidoo.gif
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rafael12104

LOL! Your best gif manipulation yet. Lol!

Post of the month!

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Oleg Chebeneev

LOL. Awesome

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Tufao

I am just ROFL here after checking this old article from that famous magazine:

http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-30s-planetary-landing-blows-no-mans-sky-away/

Some would say “time will tell” by that time and earlier too.
Others wouldn’t need.
The situation that this game development and reputation is today was quite obvious and easily predictable since earlier 2013 (at least for those with a little more experience in the game industry than just amateur bloggers, game magazine “journalists” or usual gamers).
People have been believing on fairy tales and spending tons of money under this basis, ignoring and filtering the reality at this point, to try to keep the faith, which is good for the excecutives of RSI and their wish to keep making some personal profit from this obvious flop/fail, disappointing game, and, ultimately, an actual marketing scam.
Neither the first nor the last time that humans do that, of course.
To be fair, our entire society is ruled/directed/based on many things that are just illusions and fairy tales.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Opening several studios across the world, hiring tons of industry veterans including creators of CryEngine (over 400 developers total), spending millions on R&D… Thats some weird scam, dont you think?

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Tufao

They have a legit business doing “stuff” by using a marketing scam approach. Clarified enough?
Still a scam anyway, like you or not of how that sounds. Not the kind of “weird”. But the kind of “smart”, which makes the business to sound legit. It happens all the time. Big companies deceiving investors, creating false expectations, for money. Of course, in their case, when they are caught, the responsible ones go to jail for life. That never will happen with this case, because it’s just a game, because just involve a trade with consumers, etc. But it’s almost an irony when you realize that the nature of the deception, that leads one to jail and publicly demonized, leads others to be required to just to give some refunds.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

in retrospect there was a tonne of red flags back in 2013. like metric shit tonnes of them.

as a friend from irc that gets upset when people are overly negative about the game pointed out while talking about ashes of creation when i compared their KS to SC’s “no i would not back SC again if it KSed today with what we know now”.

far more realized and substantial KS’s have come and gone with far more doubt about them than what we collectively fooled ourselves about SC based on their comms in 2012 and 2013 and even in 2014.

and looking back at those comms and videos and streams which i did recently is a massive eye opener about how much they’ve bullshitted us and continue to do so.

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Oleg Chebeneev

What redflags? Be specific.
Back when they launched kickstarter campaign, they never imagined such success and project was planned to be much simplier and smaller in scope. When they got money, they changed SC to something much more ambitious. Which most backers were happy to see. Did they fail deadlines? Yep. Chris is terrible at putting realistic dates. But game is obviously improving every year and more and more core features are being implemented.

This is the most ambitious video game ever created and its been in full development for less then 5 years. Its too early to scream vaporware. Especially considering that backers can actually play parts of it.

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Melissa McDonald

Ya know… I have to ask. Exactly WHAT is so ambitious about this game? We have other games with spacecraft, exploration, combat, landings, explorable ship interiors, etc. We have space games with ground combat / away missions. Honest question. What is so “ambitious” about this game?

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Tufao

Exactly WHAT is so ambitious about this game?

It’s a very ambitious project when you see all those features together, MMO-like, high fidelity, number of systems, player-controlled stuff, AI, economy, etc etc.., but “ambition” is pretty much meaningless when you have no capacity to deliver even the basics, which is the case of this lost project.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Its like comparing a globe to planet Earth. Globe is also round. It has similar contours. It rotates too. There is some blue in it. Same shit right? Well, not really.

Gotta invest time to learn about SC to know the answer. In short 2 words: scale and fidelity.

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Melissa McDonald

So Star Trek Online in 4K would surpass Star Citizen in “ambition” then? ;-)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

other games have massive scale and higher fidelity than SC has at this point.

so answer the question honestly and without buzzwords?

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Oleg Chebeneev

But we arent speaking about SC at this point which is alpha version. We are speaking about launched PU when all game systems are working and at least 10 star systems functioning. And there is definetly no other game like that.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

eve has lots of systems that are larger than stanton and have high fidelity assets.

unverse engine is epically more massive and has high fidelity assets.

there are other games in development which appear to be further along than SC currently is and will do all of that if all goes well for them.

and nevermind what SC WANTS to do, we know what it does now and the dificulties and challenges this team faces which others have already overcome and do on our desktops now.

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Oleg Chebeneev

are you serious comparing eve’s scale with sc? wow..

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you’re right. eve is massively bigger even tho SC apes on it’s travel systems.

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Tufao

After 6 years of development, going to the 7th very soon, they won’t be able to release even 0.5% of the promised game that you called “simplier and smaller” in scope.
The idea that “Most backers were happy to see” an increase in the scope was based in the things not delaying the game, but making it to come faster… and logically, the game fully released, instead having to play for a decade or more, as is reasonably/obviously expected at this point, sub-par, broken, tech demos, without realistic indication until now, of the game ever achieving what you called, again, “simplier and smaller” scope.
The “ambition” thing is pure propaganda to feed the imagination of those buying jpeg-vaporware, or meaningless assets that works only in tech demo mode and probably will have to be redone several times if they really dream to release a meaningfull/working game.
They are years far to achieve even the simplier and smaller scope, which I would call, something even smaller than games of the 90’s, considering the whole thing delivered and how all the things work together.
So much for what you said: “game is obviously improving every year more and more core features are being implemented”.
It’s very low expectations for a project with this quantity of dollars of investiment: “Oh, they are working on this and delivering 0.5% more of what they promised to be fully released three years ago, so, it’s all good”.
I also don’t understand why defending a business and a company following the same approach of continuous deception would do any good for that company, community and game in the medium/long term. I alerted about that earlier 2013. Here we are.
RSI certainly is one of the game companies with worst reputation in the market at this point, if not the worst.
They have a niche indeed, a very tiny one, to explore. But they are basically hopeless of ever increasing this niche in this decade and realistically thinking, pretty much never will be able to.
That’s all fruit of their marketing behavior and less guilty of the development itself, which, unfortunately, they are obviously lost on direction.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Tufao:”I alerted about that earlier 2013 “… That is your problem Tufao… back in 2013, hence just months after end of Kickstarter end of Nov. 2012 you went totally south about SC. It is your faith, nothing to do with any reality of scam :)
SC with the worst reputation, you forget also about 200 whales pledging for 161M$ and others educated “revelation”.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

success? what success? merely raising capital to fund a project is not “success”, it’s raising capital to fund a business. nothing more.

you really needed to go and review their communications in those years like i suggested before you replied. not that it will make a difference in your mind anyway.

infamous vapourware projects in the history of gaming have had more substance to them and playability than star citizen currently does as well.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”infamous vapourware projects in the history of gaming have had more substance to them and playability than star citizen currently does as well.”

Can you list 5 games and dates of none release which was officialy flagged as proven vaporware and more playable ? :)

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Oleg Chebeneev

I meant kickstarter success, are you cant argue with that.
Ive been following SC for years and have seen alot of communication. What exectly you are referring to?

Most famous vapourware games never gave access to any type of gameplay or even videos of gameplay. Games like Duke Nukem Forever or Beyond Good and Evil 2. If you intend to call vapourware any game that has been in development for 5 years or less, it would be a damn long list.

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Tufao

I meant kickstarter success, are you cant argue with that.

Well… The “kickstarter success” only makes the current situation, one that we know that will persist for many years yet, a big failure.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the most famous examples of vapourware games all had video and even in some cases on the floor playable demos.

i don’t think any game in the history of the industry matches star citizen for clearly in retrospect bullshot video footage either.

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Oleg Chebeneev

What vopourware games are you talking about? Just curious.

Also you can call it bullshot video footage. I call it awesome footage. Like that procedural planet demo

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

https://www.google.ca/search?q=famous+vapourware+games+with+playable+demos&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=70PmWdHbD8nujwSRjYS4BA

google is hard.

until it starts accurately reflecting what we get on our desktops it’s pure bullshit and nothing more. hence the term “bullshot”. but idk i’d rather have legit game to play than fancy video footage that is a fantasy.

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Oleg Chebeneev

You linked some random googled crap and it somehow should prove your point? There are Machinarium, FF7, Stanley Parable, F16 on the list and NONE of them was vapoware. Try harder buddy.

The most famous vapoware games that I mentioned never had playable demo or even screenshots

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Tufao

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/funding-goals

“Star Citizen will launch with 100 star systems.”

Oh yeah! Vaporware! Unfortunately.
As 90% of the features of the game.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

nevermind that those games were all vapourware until they no longer were…

what did you do only click one single search result?

are you really gonna sit there and pretend there haven’t been vapourware game projects with demos and footage? really? is your head so far up CIG’s ass that you would behave so ignorantly about common knowledge and expected behaviouir?

why am i asking these questions of a guy that thinks a game hitting NDA testing disproves alleged haters that exist only in his own imagination anyway?

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Oleg Chebeneev

Lets see..
You called SC a vapourware. When I told you that SC has playable demo, you said majority of vapourware games had demos more playable then SC. I asked you which ones. You gave me some random link to google with several games listed that noone would ever call vapourware. After I pointed this out, you are telling me that I didnt click enough search results (what? I should go through 100 pages of search to find that vapourware game youre talking about?) and angrily accusing me that I shouldnt doubt that there are such games.

So maybe you actually list them instead of acting hysterical? Since it looks like you made a statement that you cannot back up and now just yelling to cover the fact that you dont know the answer.

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Tufao

There are literally thousands… actually millions of games that are Vaporware in the planet, and which achieved even more than the 0.5% of their final target, less ambitious target (which is the current status of Star Citizen):

https://www.unseen64.net/category/unseen-news/leaked/

After all this money and time, SC has no indication of available tech or anything that makes you seriously believe (if you are not an ignorant dreamer) that they shown capability deliver “100 systems on launch”, as along as many other promised and advertised features (meaning legally binding to release such features in the way that was advertised, which puts them in a worst situation certainly than those who made it at close doors without general consumer money involved), in this lifetime.
So, definitely it is vaporware at this point and a good candidate to be kept as vaporware forever… or to be released like Duke Nukem Forever was… so-called vaporware that ended released, but terribly disappointing.

And different from many vaporware, all things considered, we can call this a marketing scam for sure too.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Tufao:” actually millions of games that are Vaporware in the planet”… this and your numbers of 5% of SC done, 2% of whales pledging for 161M$? that is always fun to read your ranting Tufao :)

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

The rationalization is there will be less systems, but they will be more detailed. pfft

Just marketing BS.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’m not the one who called sc vapour ware for one.

for two there are lots of examples of vapourware and why the term exists with simple google searches, which is why i suggested it in this context. becuase clearly you are oh so triggered by the term that you don’t understand how it applies to SC in it’s current state.

for three you’re the one who acts hysterical in every single one of these articles that people are saying actually pretty reasonable criticisms about your precious consumer luxury product that has a severe communication and project management problem at the very least nevermind the astounding monetization scheme it uses. and you’re hysterical about it even before anyone says anything in every single SC article to boot.

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Melissa McDonald

I realize this point is probably of niche concern, but you’d think a game that has such ambitions would do more to interest the female of the species, i.e. female avatar, some things like that. They don’t seem very interested in attracting anything without a Y chromosome.

Honestly I’m way closer to dismissing the title as a “boys game” than a game that will never launch or will be a shadow of what was promised. Just my 2 pence.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they’ve been showing female characters in a fair bit of their bullshot marketting material the past year actually.

check out that mining video a few months ago for heavy female representation for example.

and ofc way back when the cutlass ship ad had a female character.

al that being said, i’m waiting patiently for character creation to come in and playable female avatars. imo it’s one of the indicators of sq42 readiness that they haven’t even shown char creation yet which will be essential for that part of the game given it’s sales pitch, unless it becomes yet another thing they renege on.

also noting that alot of the VA work that’s been implemented so far is women VAs.

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TheDonDude

The lack of a female avatar is hilariously bad. It’s been right around the corner for ages now.

Beyond that, though, I would think the game should (eventually?) appeal to women, no?

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Oleg Chebeneev

They already have female character models and armors ready, more in the work.

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TheDonDude

Yeah I know they have it in the works, but they’ve had it in the works for years.

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Oleg Chebeneev

They dont just have them in the works, they already shown how female models and armors look ingame

Estranged
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Kickstarter Donor
Estranged

A couple of female NPCs means nothing.

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TheDonDude

I’ve learned not to give points until it’s actually in the game for players. Until then, it’s still “in the works.”

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

as it is they can talk all they want and make bullshot videos all they want. until it’s on our desktops it’s immaterial.

and that goes for 3.0 as well, despite it’s NDA player test status.

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TheDonDude

Hear hear.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

idk why in this day and age the video showing thing is even propped up so much as proof of anything.

people still rage about the division e3 trailer (despite it being completely accurate to what we got at launch) being a misrepresentation in graphics and content, but somehow CIG throwing together bullshit videos “proves” something? despite every single one of their “gameplay” demos proving to be utter bullshit once those milestones hit our desktops?

i’m still waiting for the gameplay video that legitimately reflects game play from them. and the more i look at that gamescom video the more obvious fakery it is on multiple points in a way that would earn massive qq fests for publishers.

Estranged
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Estranged

TDD – not to mention many men play female avatars.

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Melissa McDonald

#SpaceButts

Estranged
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Estranged

Melissa, I like the image/RP of a strong woman. The ladies in my family have been doormats, basically (not their fault).. My main in SWTOR is a female bounty hunter, for said reason.

So, not only is it important to have female avatars – I want them to look strong and feminine, not just eye candy.

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Knox Harrington

.

saywhat2.png
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Schlag Sweetleaf

Karl?..

Estranged
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Estranged

So, the original intent of the game is not even close to ready. Surprising. 😂

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

eh i usually have to tell this to fanboys, but the mmo was always the primary part of the game. they spend more time talking about the mmo on their ks video than the sp game nevermind the ks campaign is titled “star citizen” and not squadron 42.

that is a meme tho that goes around regularly even when it’s not at all relevant to the current topic. and no amount of linking the kickstarter page to the people passing it around does anything to dissuade their disconnect from reality generally.

Estranged
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Estranged

DK, ok, I just have seen it written so much – figured there was a good reason. Maybe that is what many backers actually wanted and ignored the rest…

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it’s just a deflection from teh state of progress on development and nothing more.

idk what purpose they even think it serves becuase if it were true it would add weight to the foolishness of CR

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Paragon Lost

I predict a busy thread with the usual suspects who really don’t post anywhere else posting here and defending RSI.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

and look they’re back after their hiatus. >>

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Paragon Lost

Heh, I’ve not read the thread yet. On a lark since the wife was out of town for a few days I went for a 400 mile motorcycle ride yesterday. Got back in the early evening, damn temperature dipped and I ended up freezing my backside off the last two hours last night getting back home.

Ended up falling asleep for quite some time and I’m not just getting up. :) Now to go read through the thread and be sadly amused.

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Oleg Chebeneev

I wanted to predict the appearance of same hat… well, lets say “doubters”, that storm into every SC article. But you guys are ahead of my predictions.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you mean people who regularly comment on the site and are if anything completely fair to SC given the optics and parameters of the project?

as opposed to the people who come to this site only for SC articles to brigade and harass regular commenters and staff with absolutely insane gamergate bullshit?

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Oleg Chebeneev

By “being completely fair to SC” you mean something like your comment in the bottom about SC having no possibility to ever be released?

Estranged
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Estranged

Oleg, one can be fair and critical.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you mean how i questioned that you think it’s a possibility still that sq42 will be released this year still somehow?

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Dividion

Wow that’s amusing. He clearly interpreted it as you saying “SC/SQ42 will never be released.” I guess people see what they want to see, even when it’s just so they have something to argue about.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

oddly most of them dissapeared a few weeks ago. i actually asked bree if she banned them and she said no she didn’t.

dunno if they had a moment of sobriety or what.

FTR me and bree had been commiserating at the clusterfuck these SC article comment sections had become prior to that with the brigading and harassment from teh SC fandom against commenters and staff (including stuff we don’t see in the comments section i’m told).

Bree Royce
Staff
Bree Royce

I did ban one recurring SC/Elite troll/sockpuppet, but not the usual SC brigaders unless they keep trolling after warnings. I think a lot of the brigaders vanished when alpha 3 actually materialized, contrary to their insistence that it was vaporware. They’ll be back – they just need to move some goalposts real quick. :P

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rafael12104

Scrolling up… I think he is back. Lol

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Armsman

IDK – “Spot the Manzes” was a fun pass time on occasion in the old days. ;)

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Three cheers for Bree!!! That guy was exceedingly tiresome.

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Paragon Lost

Very odd that they’re not showing up. I was starting to ponder the same thing as to whether they were banned. I guess they’re just focusing their effects elsewhere, maybe mmorpg dot com or Twitter.

I don’t miss em since there was no rational conversation to be had from them. All of us pretty much disagree with each other off an on and still over all manage to have two way conversations. Even Oleg… most of the time. ;)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

those guy’s efforts were internet wide so i doubt it’s moving to other venues. idk if they still do other venues either mind you as i focus my time on massively. i know this because at one point years ago they were openly discussing other venues on this site they behave that way on.

it’s reasonably assumed they have a discord server they coordinate on as well you can pretty easily find links ot massively on the subreddit.

but yeah they are an insane and toxic bunch. recently in an r/games thread about sc had people rationalizing their stalking and harassment of dsmart as if somehow that behaviour is even remotely healthy or “good” just becuase he himself is obsessive about sc.

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Paragon Lost

Wow, I hadn’t even considered that they’d organize and use Discord etc to move around doing what they do. I should have, but for some reason I didn’t even consider it.

Once again this points out one of the many strengths and weaknesses of the internet. It’s always a balancing act and often can be abused by people of the toxic sort. :/

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it’s speculation that they use discord but i have people in irc that are in teh big sc discord server so it makes sense.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

according to leaks as well 3.0 isn’t doing as well as CIG has communicated and demoed to us. if anything the leaks demonstrate how poor and positively spun their comms are and how utter bullshit their ETA dates are. even the internal schedule is positively spun it seems given the state of 3.0 in evocati.

here we were thinking they were dalying it to over polish it and it may be the most broken PU milestone thus far. which is saying something.

Bree Royce
Staff
Bree Royce

I’m not even surprised. We saw the bug-handwaving they were doing just to get it out the door at all. If they were willing to sideline a ton of critical bug fixes, imagine how many noncritical ones slid past.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the really eye opening leak, let me see if i can find it again… here it is https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/76lqca/30_spoilers_from_my_evocati_friend/

really eye opening and makes you wonder what was going on with that gamescom demo that it looked so much better shape than what these guys are dealing with right now.

also makes you question how they’ve communicated the state of development to us the past several months notwithstanding the aforementioned bug handwaving.

based on CIG’s comms we would think things were in better shape than this indicates really.

and makes me think that 3.0 will be released in similar buggy state to pre 2.6 milestones rather than my previous thinking that it was delayed so they would over polish it for an alpha milestone.

apparently chris roberts is also complaining to them that they are reporting too many already known bugs and issues or something >>

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Nosy Gamer

Read the description of how to get to a moon. First land approx 500 km away. Then, warp to one of 6 buoys to land 100 km away. Then slowboat (even using an afterburner) for 5 minutes until you get into radio range of ATC. Then you can proceed to try to dock.

That sounds like intended gameplay and not bugged. That’s nuts.

Estranged
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Estranged

DK, they are just FOS. I’ll believe when I can download it and play.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’m sure it’s gonna be alot of fun tbh. i’m looking forward to it. but i might have to re appraise selling it to guildies to play with me given the news coming out of evocati, for the same reason or worse than why the guild outing in 2.5 fell flat.

i guess we will see. and as always only one it’s on everyone’s desktops can we know for sure.

Estranged
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Estranged

DK, free weekends seem to be a good idea, at first.

These games aren’t for everybody.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they haven’t done a free week(end) in a while. wonder why XD

nvidia
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nvidia

I am Jack’s complete lack of surprise.

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Bryan Turner

I bet you can buy a 2000 dollar concept ship though that you might get to use in another 5 years though.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

There is the much hyped “game changer” ship coming up for ConnedCitizen or whatever it’s called.

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Kickstarter Donor
Dividion

Actually, there’s an opening for one. There’s the $1500 Idris-P and the $3000 Javelin. We need something at the $2000 price point. Good call. :)
Or, you can wait for the Anniversary sale next month and pick up multiple ships. For $2000 you could get the top-tier Mining, Exploration, Salvage, Repair, Refueling and Science vessels.
You could also just buy those with in-game credits after the game launches and never spend more than $60.

Estranged
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Estranged

12 months of 8 hours a day grinding later…

pfft

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roo woods

I seem to remember there being a lot of conversations ( meaning arguments ) in the summer of 2016 where backers argued fervently that it would be released by the end of 2017 .

“Place your bets” hmmm I would say it is far from a sure thing that SQ42 will release next year either .

As for Star Citizen I also remember there being a lot of conjecture about a release date in the early 2020’s ( again the backers disagreed fervently over the possibility ) . But with only 26 months until 2020 and 3.0 a year late and still not released to all the backers I think that it is increasingly looking like that could be possible too .

I have even seen some long term backers and supporters on mmorpg.com forums start to become disillusioned with the pace of development .

I think it is becoming clearer by the month to those of us who are not viewing this project through rose coloured glasses that all is not well with Star Citizen or Squadron 42 .

As Monty Python once put it ” there is trouble at mill “

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wratts

2020 seems realistic to me, from what we see in alpha and the overall pace of progress. If they can contain costs to keep going that long, there might be a stable product in sight

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

2017 seemed realistic to some of us 2 years ago, and as it is release = current year + 2 years has become the rule based on CIG’s bullshit comms they give us.

so 2020 seems reasonable now but will it seem reasonable in 2019? outlook seems hazy, ask again later.

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Phubarrh

How much for the logo design?

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Oleg Chebeneev

Yep, I indeed thought that SQ42 _probably_ wont release this year. Thank you MoP for confirming, that SQ42 _probably_ wont release this year.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i like how you put emphasis on it like there’s a possibility.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Not really. Im pretty sure SQ42 wont be released next year either. My estimates:
SQ42: early-mid 2019.
PU: somewhere in 2020 with 5 systems included.

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Dividion

Agreed. I’m a fan of the project, but I’m also a realist. There’s no way we’re getting SQ42 this year. I think there’s real potential for a 2018 release though.

wpDiscuz