Bungie denies Destiny 2 community claims that third-party apps are triggering PC permabans [Updated]

We’ve updated with Bungie’s latest statement at the end of this post.

It’s a classic case of he said, she said: the MMO edition.

Following yesterday’s rollout of Destiny 2 on the PC, players have flocked to the official forums and Reddit in consternation. The issue? Apparently, some folks claim that the use of certain third-party apps has triggered account bans despite Bungie’s never having expressly forbidding the community from using such programs. Even worse, players who receive a permaban in this fashion cannot appeal their case to the studio.

Some of the alleged programs that are causing these issues include OBS, XSPLIT, Fraps, Mumble, Discord, MSI Afterburner, and EVGA Precision XOC.

Despite the rising outcry, Bungie denies that this is the case. “We do block programs from pushing their code into our game,” PC Project Lead David Shaw tweeted. “Most overlays work like that. We don’t ban for that tho. That’s internet BS.”

This claim was backed up by a community manager on the forum who said, “Third-party applications that aren’t compatible with Destiny 2 may cause the game to not run but won’t result in a ban.”

Source: VG247, Twitter
Update: Bungie has made a new statement clarifying just who’s been banned and why.

We have seen lots of questions about bans being issued in the PC version of Destiny 2. To provide some information, we would like to share some facts. The following is true: Destiny 2 cannot automatically ban you, only Bungie can ban a player after a manual investigation. Yesterday, we banned approximately 400 players on PC. Bans were applied to players who were using tools that pose a threat to the shared ecosystem of the game. We did not (and will not) issue any bans for the use of overlays or performance tools, including Discord, Xsplit, OBS, RTSS, etc. Information on using third-party applications can be found here. We are overturning 4 of the bans that were issued during the PC Beta.

We are committed to providing an experience that is fun and fair for the millions of players who have joined us in this community.

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67 Comments on "Bungie denies Destiny 2 community claims that third-party apps are triggering PC permabans [Updated]"

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Bannex

Destiny is taking its pc launch seriously and not allowing the things that plague all other fps to mess with it? The horror!

Estranged
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Estranged

I know, right?

It is almost like they have been making these games for almost 2 decades.

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NeoWolf

400 less cheaters in the world.

Of course they are crying foul, they got caught.
Bungie bans are PERMANENT because they are that checked and sure. Good on them I say.

Estranged
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Estranged

400 out of millions, oh the humanity!

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rafael12104

Well, I feel a little better, at least. :)

Bree Royce
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Bree Royce

We’ve updated the post with Bungie’s latest statement on the issue.

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Dug From The Earth

Apparently even the NVIDIA overlay is causing this issue.

Its a pretty big cluster flop on bungie’s end.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you might wanna check the updated statement.

i think it’s stupid to lock out typical overlays but if these idiots even used them they’d know they don’t work on this game anyway. >>

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Dug From The Earth

Bans have been a popular thing in games in the last year or so. So much that most people who deserve the ban, dont deny that they were cheating/hacking/botting, etc. They still rage against the company/game/devs that banned them however (making for some great, fun reading)

This time around, large numbers of players are completely denying any use of hacks/cheats/etc programs.

Its this difference that makes many think something is up, and that Bungie is outright lying to the public about things to keep this from becoming a huge PR “Ooops!”

For bungie to post the newest response, about only banning 400 people (there are more than 400 people on the forums claiming to have been banned), seems like it could be complete load of BS just to paint bungie in good pr spotlight.

Is there a chance that bungie is correct, and that nearly everyone who got banned, is trying to deny it and act innocent? Absolutely. That saying however, the easiest answer, probably is… is more fitting in this case. It makes a WHOLE lot more sense that this is Bungie’s screw up, causing large numbers of people to be upset and confused (as they are), than it is for all these “cheaters” to suddenly change their behavior, mindset, and attitude and react as an entire group the way they have been.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

ofc it couldn’t be a cheat app forum users brigading and making multiple accounts right? cuz that would never happen.

and you took a poster count of how many are claiming to be banned? 400 people brigading about the same thing can look like alot on a forum,.

and no the nvidia overlay is not causing people to be banned or else everyone running nvidia hardware would be banned ayyyyy lmao.

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Dug From The Earth

Yeah, I should have been specific in my original post. Ive seen others reporting that the nvidia overlay was all they were using when they got banned. (including a friend on my bnet list I was grouped with). I dont have first hand info that it was… which is why I said “apparently”.

I couldnt personally tell you first hand if it was the cause, since it didnt happen to me. I wish I had your level of certainty about things though, so I could stand behind conjecture with a confident and whimsical attitude.

(and fyi, not everyone using nvidia, turns on their overlay, or uses it if its on. Many gamers disable it because its annoying. And if its a false positive glitch in bungies cheat detection, it wouldnt flag it 100% of the time either. Thats how fuzzy logic works.)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

if you’ve got an nvidia card and using geforece experience at all it’s effectively “hooked in” to teh game. except it doesn’t, as it’s at a hardware/driver level of “hooked in” which is why they can’t block it like they can stuff like even fraps which fraps generally evades shitty anti cheat that block pretty much everything else.

anyways it’s pretty obvious at this point that these people either had reseller keys or were legit cheating, so blaming overlays that don’t even hook into the game in the first place is silly. blaming nvidia geforce is just adding to teh silliness.

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Utakata

Mumble? o.O

…I assume if you have this software turned off it won’t be causing an issue? (I only use it when raiding with my Gnome guild…which is hardly ever, as I don’t raid that much.)

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Dušan Frolkovič

I would expect that only the mumble overlay will have potential problems, not Mumble itself

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Eliandal

Checking in on our mumble server, currently 27 people playing D2 and ‘mumbling’! Chatting with a few friends who do play – they’ve had no issues with mumble itself, and none have been banned

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Utakata

Thank you for looking in to that! /bows :)

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Utakata

“You probably can take the crickets to mean yes, Uta.”

…oh okays. Thnkx! <3

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A Dad Supreme

You know, talking to yourself doesn’t mean you’re crazy. Everyone does that.

It’s when you answer yourself that it becomes the problem. :P

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Utakata

Depends if the answer is correct or not. :)

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Sray

I don’t know what you’re talking about: some days answering myself is the only intelligent conversation I get all day.

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Hirku

Yeah, that’ll end well.

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Isey

I wish they would put forward an alternate view at least? They said its not an overlay, but not that there is any issue. I think it would be good of them to admit that hackers are being caught and banned (yay!) OR that there is something banning people incorrectly and they are working diligently to fix the problem (boo/yay). Their silence on the matter is giving the power to the people saying they are being banned for no reason.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they aren’t silent. they said people aren’t getting banned by using overlays which don’t work with the game to begin with.

and it seems from our testing/experience the only overlay that even works with destiny2 is nvdiai geforce stuff.

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Stropp

So does this mean no YouTube tutorials/play-throughs or no Twitch streaming?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i streamed almost entire tutorial w/e thing and the first zone yday.

but fraps doesn’t work with the game. idk about other recording apps. i meani can record locally with OBS i think same way i streamed but with one of the capture options that hooks in at a different part of the graphics stack than others tend to.

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rafael12104

Don’t think so. The issue is hardly universal at this point. I’ll check Twitch in a bit, but my guess is that there is plenty being streamed.

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BalsBigBrother

This aside how are you all enjoying Destiny 2 on PC?

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Mark Mealman

Loving it. Put in maybe 7-8 hours yesterday and got to level 20 on my warlock. Ended up never leaving the starter EDZ area, just ran around killing elites, doing public quests and exploring. The gun mechanics are a lot of fun.

The game might not be a 200+ hour game, but I can see myself putting 60+ in by leveling and gearing up the 3 classes.

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rafael12104

It’s fun. No question about it. Kept me going into the wee hours this morning. BUT, it isn’t revolutionizing FPS or MMOs by any stretch. Lol.

My quick take:

Beautiful game. Very satisfying graphically. And, this time, they included story and it is good sans a few things like a bad guy named Gary. Heh.

Combat is what you would expect, but it seems they dumbed down the AI. Or maybe you are just too OP for the levels. It’s too easy, IMO. And I’m not one of those Ninja Gaidan types who need extreme difficulty and failure to keep me playing.

Overall, I think it is more equivalent to Destiny 1.60 than Destiny 2.0. They fixed alot of things that hurt 1.0. Took away some skill customization, and dumbed down pvp.

Thumbs up if you liked Destiny 1 or found it lacking because of the lack of story. If you are looking for a revolution or the impact Halo or Halo 2 had? Hmm, stay in your fox hole.

Estranged
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Estranged

Right, they polished it up and made it a complete game.

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Archebius

I’m really enjoying it so far. My wife and I have been looking for a good game to play together for some time, and this is fitting the bill.

The world so far feels a lot more natural, with better enemy spawns and mission areas. The guns handle well, movement feels great, voice acting is solid and design is pretty intuitive. Random NPC dialog is hilarious.

Also, the main social hub has chickens. Can’t go wrong.

Estranged
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Estranged

You will eventually have another social area, with lots of goodies.

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thirtymil

Well, voice acting is solid apart from the painful over-the-top British accent sported by the quest-giver in the European Dead Zone…

But otherwise yes, it’s a lot of fun and I’m finding myself thoroughly entertained.

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Archebius

My brother hates British accents, so I’ll randomly quote that guy as we’re playing just to bug him. :)

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Sray

Loving it.

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Wolfyseyes

I’m enjoying the heck out of punching every face I see as a newly-rolled Titan. Only played the Hunter from the launch of 1 and through 2, so Doom Guy punches are a refreshing change of pace. <3

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i don’t like the platforming and we had some confusion finding the quests/missed the side quests after the “tutorial”. the tutorial is super overly long but we joked that they were just trying to do the mmo thing with the too long tutorial bullshit.

but other than that it’s a lot of fun. 3 man team really tears ass on missions that are phased/instanced to just your teeam (and aren’t dungeons per say).

idk where the bright engrams drop from but i haven’t gotten any i guess at level 6 so far. and i don’t see where to buy them in game either Oo (not really interested in buying any right now but i was curious this morning).

Estranged
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Estranged

bright engrams come with level ups and further XP gain

get to the main social area and it all starts happening quickly

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BalsBigBrother

Hmmm thanks everyone for your comments I may end up snagging this after all as I enjoy a good fps as much as the next person.

Won’t be this weekend though I have a date with some Nazis that need shooting. I will get round to the aliens eventually I expect :p

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thirtymil

I have a date with some Nazis that need shooting.

“It’ll be a short date.” *

* May not mean anything until you’ve played Destiny 2 :)

Count Oakland
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Count Oakland

Did they announce that bright engrams are going to drop for free on PC and not be cash shop only? I have not seen that in writing.

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rafael12104

Haven’t seen anything either. My guess is that won’t happen at this point.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

afaik it’s just how the game works, noth says they come from quest rewards not just automatically on levels tho. idk i’m a bit confused on that.

Estranged
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Estranged

on PS4, once you hit level 20, you gain another XP bar

every time it fills up, you receive a bright engram

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Wolfyseyes

I tried to stream my game yesterday but only got a framerate hit when I tried to use OBS (probably the wrong capture setting).

That said, i’m glad I appear to have dodged a bullet and will wait until this little dust cloud clears before I try to stream anything Destiny 2. Better safe than sorry.

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rafael12104

Indeed. Good idea. But when you do, post a link. I’d love to check out your stream or vid.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

he does a fun show too. better than mine anyway LOL

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rafael12104

You are streaming already ? Cool! Hook me up with a link.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i’m at twitch.tv/dirtyklingon (off the top of my head). i decided to local record today (which was my plan yday). i’ll likely stream more on friday tho, around 1pm est.

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Simon F

At least it requires a 3rd party program to get you kicked out. Play MapleStory and get accused of hacking by the system by just playing the game. Out of curiosity I even tried playing on a fresh Windows install in case some program was interfering, but I got the same issue.

Besides, I find it a bit odd for people to get automatically permabanned by using 3rd party programs, so I think I’ll stand on the side of Bungie until further evidence shows up. I can certainly see 3rd party programs being an issue in terms of false positives shutting the game down and such, and possibly temporary bans being thrown out, but that’s about it. Permanent bans are rarely given automatically even if it’s hacking.

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BalsBigBrother

Yeah I saw this start up yesterday and Bungie need to be absolutely sure that they are on the right side of the fence with this one or it will be pretty horrible to watch. I mean banned for streaming Destiny 2, can you imagine the storm if one of the bigger streamers is hit with this.

I have popcorn and I await developments :-)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

fraps doesn’t work with the game from what i can tell. as for OBS i streamed for 2.5 hours yday and am not banned, and we were all in mumble while playing with discord open on our pc’s. none of us seem to be banned today from what i can tell.

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BalsBigBrother

Did you have any of the overlays running? That seems to be the current theory going round at the moment that overlays from those programs are what trigger the ban due to code being injected to allow them run with the game.

I am only asking I don’t know either way and am just really watching as an interested bystander

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BDJ

Its the only theory for hackers to put forward for getting banned.

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Sray

As far as I can tell, the only overlay that works on Destiny 2 is Geforce Experience.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

does OBS even have an overlay? i forget lol

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

when i tried using fraps the overlay didn’t hook in which is how i initially knew it wasn’t working with the game (as well i tried taking a screenshot and checking in the fraps screen shot folder and there wasn’t anything there).

there have been games where overlays have been false positives in teh past but idk about this one. the game’s graphics stack is different somehow and that seems to affect overlays injecting in the first place.

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Schmidt.Capela

An update: overlays not working is indeed due to an anti-cheat measure.
Edit: David Shaw is the PC project lead for Destiny 2.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

we already knew that. it doesn’t mean it’s not idiotic. i think this tweet is literally quoted in the article btw.

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Schmidt.Capela

More likely it’s an anti-cheat feature. One of the most common ways of injecting cheats (or anything else) in games is through the video libraries, so finding ways to prevent all such injections is an effective way of slowing down cheating.

Might be why Geforce Experience is the only overlay reported to work. It’s built into the graphics driver itself, as opposed to third party overlays that need to inject code into it.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

cheats almost universally go through memory and not the graphics stack. even wall hacks that overlay information on teh screen. even those don’t work like the above mentioned overlays, which fraps overlay injects at a completely different part of the stack than any of those other ones and is famous for not triggering anti cheat crashes in other games that crash when using the others.

and really the games where the anti cheat crashes the client pretty much disprove teh notion that dissalowing legitimate overlays “slows” down cheating as a rule.

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Schmidt.Capela

cheats almost universally go through memory and not the graphics stack.

I believe you are thinking about CheatEngine and other debugger-based cheats. Those can be prevented by either disallowing debugging of the executable or by having a watchdog process that attaches as a debugger (there can only be one debugger running at a time), so while they are very common for games that don’t try to prevent cheating, they often don’t work for better protected online-only games.

Another common technique is by linking an extra DLL into the executable, but that is so easy to detect, it’s like asking for a ban in any online game where the devs care about preventing cheating.

So, the best attack vector left for cheating in online-only games that attempt to prevent cheating is injecting into a known library that is linked into the game client. The graphics stack tends to be the target of choice because too many legitimate applications do it (anything with an overlay) and every game that displays hardware-accelerated graphics needs to link its libraries.

BTW, if you successfully inject into any linked library — including those in the graphics stack — you get access to not just the library’s functions, but also to all the game’s memory. And it’s kinda hard to tell apart injected code that just adds a harmless overlay from actual cheats.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

it’s not just cheat engine that reads/injects into memory.

and cheats don’t use the places that legit overlays hook into.

friend of mine makes cheats for games for fun (she also customizes her linux kernel for fun she’s weird) and is laughing at this post right now saying some very unkind things i won’t share.

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Schmidt.Capela

it’s not just cheat engine that reads/injects into memory.

Nope, it’s not just CheatEngine. But you need to either be debugging the process you want to attack (which means a CheatEngine-like approach), or to have your code running inside the process itself (usually done through code injection, though other approaches like proxy libraries or rootkits can work).

and cheats don’t use the places that legit overlays hook into.

They can use the exact same hooks, though. I have some first hand experience here from when I made a map overlay for an online-only game with a nasty anti-cheat watchdog just to see if I was capable of pulling it off, so I know it’s possible.

(No, I wasn’t caught; private cheats rarely are. And no, I didn’t keep using it after I was confident my cheat was fully functional and undetected; I was interested in the challenge, not the cheating.)

friend of mine makes cheats for games for fun (she also customizes her linux kernel for fun she’s weird) and is laughing at this post right now saying some very unkind things i won’t share.

My approach to writing cheats under Linux was a bit different. I could just rewrite libraries to include my cheats, no hooking needed. Or write a custom version of Wine if doing cheats for Windows games. You don’t need to do anything fancy when you can just rewrite any part of your system you want.

I do admit I am just a dabbler, though; programming is just a hobby, I never worked professionally with it.

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Sray

For what it’s worth, I played about three hours last night, and had no problems with MSI Afterburner running the whole time. Though I suppose it’s possible if running multiple apps of that sort simultaneously that you might create some sort of false positive.

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rafael12104

Starting to suspect it may be the cheaters trying to change something. Not sure.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

maybe it’s those controller aim assist dupers from yday’s thread? XD

wpDiscuz