The Daily Grind: Where do you stand on WoW’s proposed new PvP system?

Buried in the World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth reveals earlier this month was the huge PvP news that eventually, PvP servers, like the dying one I’ve been stuck on for half of forever, will be quietly converted into PvE servers. Instead of being constantly subjected to lowbie ganking while out questing in the world, PvP server players will join PvE players in taking part in what is akin to the Star Wars Galaxies-esque TEF system, only stricter. As you leave a major city, you’ll flag PvE or PvP, and that’s that. Flag for PvP and you’ll get a chance at things like extra rewards and faster reputation. The details are still up in the air, but as Blizzard Watch’s Ted Atchley points out, the rewards will have to be pretty sweet to entice most players to paint a target on their backs.

I’m not all that sad; PvP on PvP servers was basically pointless ganking for jack-all rewards, but there was just no way to convince a dozen friends to pay to move their entire stables elsewhere, so we soldiered on and put up with the random ganks on our leveling alts. I can still see taking the risk of being ganked if the rewards are huge, and the move will allow Blizzard to continue condensing its server groups too.

Where do you stand on WoW’s proposed new PvP system?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today’s Daily Grind!
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50 Comments on "The Daily Grind: Where do you stand on WoW’s proposed new PvP system?"

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Andrew Ross
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Andrew Ross

On the one hand, I’m sad since I always loved being on PvP servers and getting my fans to embrace PvP. On the other, when I wasn’t online or they were in a hurry, some of them would get so mad about PvP it wasn’t fun for anyone. Blizz’s solution almost further turns the world of Warcraft into more of a lobby, but that’s the way the genre feels like it’s going these days, and if it means we need our worlds to be more like graphical chatrooms we can pop in and out of to increase socialization, I’ll get behind it.

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Carebear

I am a little worried about the pvp bonuses, because the way the game works now is that each day you have a finite source of Reputation, AP (azerite as the new system), etc.

So for example, there will be 5-6 world quests of a specific faction up each day. If you do them pve will get x and if you do as pvp you ll get x + y% .. that mean that a pvp player will be exalted in 1 week, and a pve player in 1,5 week (example)… is not like the pve player can play longer and get more rep… the rep source is finite each day.

That may create the feeling of “forced” to open pvp if you want to progress faster. This may be ok for current pvp servers, cause they give an option to players who are there because of friends and dont like pvp, to play as pve with some lose. But on already pve servers, it will create a pointless dilemma…

So I hope the bonuses for pvp are not upon things that the source of them is finite each day… let it be like, more chance for craft material from mobs, so pve can just farm longer… but everything rewarded through dailies/weeklies should not have bonuses.

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Dreema

As I play exclusively on PVE servers and wouldn’t touch a PVP one with a bargepole, this won’t affect me in the slightest. I intend to keep the PVP flag firmly off and never engage in any PVP outside of battlegrounds.

Saying that, I’m all in favour of it. Over the years, there have been quite a few games – Archeage, I’m looking at you here – that I’ve avoided like the plague because they’ve been PVP only. Add a PVE option and I’d have played them but PVP only gets a big fat no from me.

luxundae
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luxundae

I miss the old vanilla Bloodscalp PvP server. Back 13 years ago (dear lord), open PvP was a huge community activity. Guilds would get together and go raid random enemy towns, holding them for a half hour or so until the global defense channel on the other faction was used to coordinate a response that pushed them out. Then there would normally be a running battle for a while until one side withdrew to regroup. It was a lot of fun.

Having been on both sides, it didn’t feel like I was getting ganked or was ganking people. It felt like realistic risks of being in a world at war. It made the world more exciting and dangerous and dynamic. And since there was always a rapid response to incursions, it never resulted in anyone getting locked out of a quest hub for an extended period. It’s important to remember that back in the first few months of WoW, there was a huge level spread. Very few level 60s, lots of 20s – 40s. So people of all levels could participate as long as you had a couple high level folks to keep the opposing high levels busy.

These days it seems like the environment has changed dramatically. If you’re a low level character getting ganked in Lakeshire again and again, no guild is going to see that in global defense channel and get excited about coming to your rescue. It’s just not a community activity any more. Now that they’ve added arenas and battlegrounds and raids and all the rest, people don’t keep to the old traditions. Given that, it seems like PvP servers are less like exciting, cohesive open worlds…and more like places people go to harass low level characters. So there’s probably no reason to keep them any longer.

But I’m still sad about that, because of fond memories of a past time when PvP servers were different places.

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Brix50 .

Bloodscalp haha I started on that server Dec 04. I was in a guild called Scorched Earth-Horde.
I was such a noob I didn’t even know what pvp-pve was.

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MMOBro

I’m with you. World PvP has been dead for a long time in WoW. If you really want that large, epic-style PvP there are better MMORPGs for that. But I have a ton of fond memories of Tarren Mill vs. Southshore zergs battling back and forth and carrying out small raids on Alliance towns. There’s really no benefit to forced PvP in WoW anymore with all the rewards being dished out for battlegrounds/arenas.

This is definitely the right move for WoW. I’m more sad from a nostalgia perspective than anything.

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thalendor

The only complaint I have about this change is that they did not do it sooner.

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Dread Quixadhal

Maybe instead of taking the quick and easy route, they should actually try implementing the dishonor system, as describe in the original printed manual for World of Warcraft on page 134, printed in 2004?

This would have made griefing and ganking costly, as anyone doing it more than once in a while would become KOS to every NPC in the game, making it hard to sell loot, buy potions/food/etc, or pretty much do anything else.

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Robert Mann

Simply put, there’s not enough demand for open world PvP as it is currently designed outside from those who are intending to make others suffer (gankers/griefers.)

Since allowing those people to have their way turns a server dead (they leave once no ‘soft targets’ are around anyway,) there’s obviously not that much demand for that in most MMOs. So why bother paying costs for something that isn’t being used?

That said, I do think open world PvP with a better setup could be something people enjoyed. The thing that I think would make that best would be something akin to an ESO style of progression in taking things over… but far slower. That’s my personal opinion though, taking a castle should be a matter of longer term effort and importance to me.

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Sally Bowls

Maybe it will address a recent problem.

As you know from reading this site, it is required by the laws of God and Man to group while in an MMO. :-) The dailies did go much quicker if you used an addon so that when you got to a new area, press a button and you were grouped with others which sometimes put you in a new instance and occasionally those were PvP.

Regardless, anything to reduce the impact of OW ganking on the real game is a good thing. IMO, almost all (but not all) really competitive people are playing BGs & Arenas and fair/balanced/esport games which are about skill not gear and level.

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Dug From The Earth

World PvP for me when I did it, consisted of 2 things:

1. Consensual battles between players who were all looking to participate in random bouts of pvp as they played through each zone.

2. Lowbie ganking (ive both done, and been a victim of this)

2.5 (i know, i said 2… ). Rallying with others to hunt down players who were gankings lowbies in your faction. ( i view this more of an extension of #1 though, because often times people would lowbie gank in order to draw attention to get proper battles going)

By far, #1 is the most fun for me and the reason behind why I played on a pvp server. #2 was more of a boredom thing, that was fun for maybe 20 minutes, and then just became meh.

Im fine with a system that limits/lowers the amount of lowbie ganking, especially if it provides more of a way for more entertaining battles to happen (like i described in #1). It sounds like this is the direction Blizzard is trying to push things, but its uncertain if this new system will be able to deliver on it.

I worry about having world pvp incentives, because if done wrong, many players wont pvp because they love pvp, they will simply endure it to get the rewards. You see many of these types in BGs and arenas, who put forth minimal play effort, and just endure game after game, knowing that eventually they will have enough “currency” to get the rewards they want.

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Nathan Aldana

My only concern is if this attracts pvpers to rp servers since they have a nasty habit of griefing RP just for lulz.

Otherwise I couldnt give two shits about pvp.

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Chris Walker

My main focus is instanced pvp, so I have no strong feelings about this change. If it makes more people happy than angry, great.

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Trippin Ninja

It’s a smart move. I just wish they had done this before I blew way too much money transferring most of my roster to a pve server. 😆

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Denice J. Cook

Aion herded everyone onto the PvE-only Fast Track server, Tera watered down its still-labeled PvP servers into “forced PvE only until end-game” PvP servers, and Everquest 2 downright shuttered every open PvP server it had (even the recent Time Locked open PvP server got shut down in a period of months from start to finish).

The sad fact of the matter is that the never-ending flow of exploiters, capped gank teams and dupers/hackers ruin open PvP servers every time, and they aren’t overhead-free to keep running! I can hardly blame Blizzard for finally falling in with the pack.

Is Blizzard doing server mergers too, and shuttering the PvP servers entirely, or just changing their rule sets as described? Sorry, I haven’t played Facebook WoW since Cataclysm arrived so I don’t really follow it nowadays. If they’re merging, there could be a silver lining in the cloud, though: Hopefully any money saved will help fund the Classic Servers. Then anyone who wants open PvP could just shuffle along to those once they launch. :)

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NeoWolf

Like the gentleman below I do not participate in PVP, but I have always seen the need for separate servers when it comes to pve and pvp to be somewhat redundant when Flagging is the EASY fix. PVPers can do their thing without bothering PVE’ers and PVE’ers can get on with their day witout the unwanted random ganking. Win Win.
In my experience most pvp’ers play on pve servers anyway lol

BUT and yes there IS always a but I do not like that there are additional rewards for PVP that is a little unfair. I mean I get they are trying to incentivise a far less utilised play style but rather than bribing people into it i’d prefer they actually made it something people would want to do by design. The rewards seem to be the cheap way of getting people to pvp without making any new pvp, which is a bit of a kop out.

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Paul

This – if MMO PvP play was genuinely fun for most people you wouldn’t need to bribe people to set themselves up as targets for gankers

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David Goodman

I do not participate in PVP at all, so the change does not mean anything to me.

The way I understand it, is that with this change, they will be able to ‘shard’ off the PVPers so that you only see PVPers in the world when you leave the capital city.

Additionally, and I don’t remember where I saw it, they also implied that they could also shard based on level as well, so you wouldn’t run into high-level people ganking your lowbie who wants to level while flagged; that if you’re attacked, it would be by someone who wouldn’t one-shot you and might actually be a fight.

It sounds good, in theory. Won’t affect me though, as long as the rewards are kept in check. I want them to (try to) ENTICE me to PVP, not force me to it.

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Armsbend

I am very much for it. Since I’m LTTP by 12 years I feel a bit intimidated by pvp now. This I feel is kind of a clean slate for me. Most people will be trying it so I feel like I’ll be on even ground. I’m a pvp’er 1st so I’m really excited about it. Much more than a basic story continuation.

borghive
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borghive

I just worry about my realm Emerald Dream, which has a huge active WPVP scene. Seems like they are moving towards mega servers which me thinks is the real reason for this change. I think this is their way to secretly merge servers into CRZ mega servers, which at the end of day might erode away role player server communities.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

When they were talking about this and related changes there was at least one comment that “RP realms are a special case” that they need to consider in working this system out, so, as they have done recently with the sharding system, it seems they’re going to make some tweaks peculiar to RP servers to preserve the value and context of being on an RP server specifically for RP.

If anything it seems like RP servers will become more distinctive now since RP vs. everything else will be the only real distinction, and it seems likely there will be some value for organized open world PvP to still being on an RP realm.

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Melissa McDonald

Opting in or out of PvP is the way things oughta be.

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thirtymil

If the additional rewards are simply for flagging for PvP then I see that as a handicap on pure PvE players. I don’t think you can ever ‘balance’ the additional reward to be fair as how much PvP delays your questing depends on server population, time of day and your class.

If the rewards are tied directly to actual PvP combat and/or kills (i.e. your questing slows down because you’re actually fighting the Horde/Alliance) then I have no problem with it.

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agemyth 😩

Hell, its about time.

A simple flagging system is great.

It is ironic that this is coming along with the news of another big Alliance vs Horde narrative push. Remember when Jaina and Anduin were like bastions of hope for a potential end to these pointless feuds. Blizzard somehow wrote those characters into being more petty hate fueled leaders and wrote Thrall out of his political position in the Horde and deprived him of his power as a shaman. SIGH

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Robert Mann

They like to make everyone in the game, including players, make choices that are absolutely stupid. As in, back when I was willing to play their game, to the point of walking away from quests and stopping for a while simply because I didn’t have the option to slap the stupid out of NPCs.

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Utakata

I don’t know…but my pigtails read somewhere that Blizz might consider scaling the PvP too. Not sure that would mean that max level greife…I mean, gankers will be quickly finding out that “lowbie” targets hit back hard as they do. It would be nice though.

Meanwhile, it’s the opinion of this Gnome that MMO’s moving away from PvP would be much more preferable. :)

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Robert Mann

I would LOL so hard if some game developer made a system as follows:

Low level players get a hidden buff (aka, only they can see it) which has two conditional effects: First, that if they are attacked by a high level player while under the effects of this buff they not only take very minimal damage, but gain a secondary buff making them vastly OP against the attacker. Second, that if they engage in PvP against a vastly more powerful player without that secondary buff, they lose the hidden buff. I’d also see that second portion with a timer warning for losing the hidden buff if high level players are PvPing nearby, where they can set a temporary flagging to be safe so as not to disrupt that constantly via either side using it as a workaround/abuse tactic.

Because nothing would be funnier than the complaints and rage of grief/gankers than when low level players destroyed them.

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Schmidt.Capela

Removing PvP servers, and instead using phasing to bring together the players that want to engage in PvP: terrific idea, even if unoriginal (the exact same system, down to having to go to a main hub to switch between PvP and PvE, was added to DCUO back when it switched to MegaServers about 6 years ago).

Level-restricted phases in PvP (i.e., one phase for all PvP players below the suggested max level for the zone, one phase for all PvP players above that): another terrific idea if they get to implement it. It would kill newbie ganking in the bud, as max level players flagged for PvP wouldn’t be able to even see lower level characters, much less attack them.

PvP-exclusive content that only appears in the world if you are flagged: I’m fine with that as long as the added content is purely PvP and any reward that isn’t purely cosmetic can’t be used in PvE (or, at least, there are equivalent rewards that can be obtained with a similar effort without flagging for PvP even once).

Giving increased PvE rewards for being flagged for PvP: horrible idea. That is functionally the same as bribing PvE players to accept less fun gameplay just so gankers can have victims. If I was still playing, and the increased rewards were large enough to get me to consider flagging for PvP, I would instead leave the game in disgust.

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Paul

“That is functionally the same as bribing PvE players to accept less fun gameplay just so gankers can have victims.” – spot on

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Modrain

From my understanding, the key thing here is that it’s not PvP servers “quietly converted into PvE servers”, but all servers getting uniformized under a single system.

As far as I’m concerned, it’s the best of both world. It can introduce PvE players to PvP without impacting them on a permanent basis, potentially bringing in fresh blood, and similarly PvP players are not forced anymore into living 24/7 under a pressure few want except a handful of hardcore players.
The downside is obviously the risk of splitting the smaller PvP playerbase between servers and inadvertently killing it.

As said in the article, it will depend a lot on whether the rewards are worth it or not, whether non-PvP players could get interested in it or not. It could both destroy PvP or vivify it. Tough balancing job for Blizzard on the horizon.

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Schmidt.Capela

The downside is obviously the risk of splitting the smaller PvP playerbase between servers and inadvertently killing it.

Connected Realms can fix that, though at the cost of potentially killing the “small realm” feeling many of them have.

As said in the article, it will depend a lot on whether the rewards are worth it or not,

Particularly, if I was still playing, making the rewards “worth it” would make me leave. It’s one of the reasons I stopped playing Diablo 3; the rewards for playing in groups were so worth it they made me feel like a fool for playing solo, which when coupled with the fact I really dislike playing Diablo-style games with strangers made me leave the game instead.

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Robert Mann

I agree, either make the PvP fun and rewarding in and of itself for open world or just leave it to the people who already find it thus.

No extra credit, as that’s going to make me want to throw a game into that “Nope, piece of trash exploitive crud” pile regardless of anything else.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

The population if anything should be less divided since they’re going to be using cross-realm PvP phases or shards to get everyone together. Which they actually have been doing this for a while, but probably it will be used more aggressively to make sure that if you’re flagged for PvP you have a better chance of seeing other flagged players in the open world. The difference is that population will be segmented mainly by shards or phases instead of servers, so players should be gathered into a smaller number of more populated instances on both sides.

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Dawn Ball-Chatman

Oh Yay, even more asshats running around on my PVE servers killing quest givers in low level areas, can’t wait for that. /sarcasm

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Utakata

Keep in mind those NPC’s might be scaled, making that more difficult to do so.

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TheDonDude

I think this actually completely solves this issue, no?

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Hirku

I don’t like that either, but if those players are doing it to stir up PvP and they’re flagged as such, then you’re not going to see them. If you’re flagged for PvP you’re put on a separate shard and can only see other flagged players.

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Dawn Ball-Chatman

If that’s how Blizz ends up doing it, then have at it. =P

Polyanna
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Polyanna

This seems to be their stated intent with the new rule set for open world PvP; to put anyone who is initiating or flagged for PvP into a shard or phase where everyone is flagged for PvP, and where you won’t see PvE (non-flagged) players at all. Hence, you also will not be able to kill the PvE-phased quest givers, but you freely can be ganked by other PvP-ers for killing their NPCs in the PvP-phased instance.

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Schmidt.Capela

Actually, you won’t be able to even initiate PvP while on the PvE phase. In order to target and attack the other faction (which I hope includes quest givers), players will need to go back to a main city, flag themselves for PvP there, and then go back into the world.

Similarly for removing the PvP flag. Go back to a main city, unflag, and then get back to where you were.

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Hirku

I’m all for it. Can’t happen soon enough.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

The only actual difference will be that making the choice between PvP and PvE for open world gameplay will only cost you a loading screen instead of a $25 character transfer or re-roll.

People discussing this tend to fixate on “PvP servers going away,” but the flip side is that PvE servers are going away too, and all PvE servers will now quietly become PvP servers, for anyone who wants them to be.

The main point they made during the announcement about this feature was that it will let them do all sorts of new open world PvP concepts they have thought about for a long time, but never tried because they couldn’t figure out how to have it make sense on the PvE realms. So, for all those who wish for the good old days of Southshore vs. Tarren Mill; not saying that’s exactly where they will take it, but it’s at least a possibility.

It’s unlikely that anyone will actually miss the locked in PvP / PvE settings, other than the pissy no-skill gankers who will have to fight people that actually want to PvP now. Anyone who wants to play on a PvP server can; anyone who doesn’t want to can avoid it. But there are a ton of people who probably will try occasional open world PvP now because they can, where that choice was never open to them before due to their realm choice.

gelfred
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gelfred

In one interview they mentioned they would -like- to have it so you get phased with similar level players also, removing high level gankers. This would be excellent. Leveling would become much more enjoyable.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

blizz has progressively killed pvp on pvp servers since vanilla. there’s really no chance of tm/ss coming back with this or any other update in teh future because that’s just not the logical progression of blizz’s design progression on the subject.

you might see more phased/”instanced in teh world” stuff like wg and tb but that’s not really at all ss/tm by a long shot or any stretch of the imagination.

what will mostly happen is much like when wildstar did exactly this where some ppl flag for the rewards and most ppl who flag avoid kiling other faction players who are flagged with few exceptions.

which is already pretty much been the case on pvp flagged servers since at least wotlk.

while historically plenty of conciously flagged wpvp has happened on pve servers in all of that time as well.

this is more about dwindling “shard” populations regardless of server type outside of expack launch windows (which historically the most populated and active servers are by far pvp servers, even if dead servers number for pvp higher ratio than pve servers).

either way a more productive move would be to break down faction barriers like wildstar also has moved on as the major population issue these days for a few years now (far more than previous years where it was very bad as it was) is faction imbalance. which ever since humans got that racial which freed a slot for an extra dps trinket alliance has overwhelmed horde populations by a massive margin.

Richard de Leon III
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Richard de Leon III

I avoid pvp like the plague, so the new system doesnt affect me in the slightest. But if itll lead to total separation of class balancing between the 2 playstyles then I’ll pop open a bottle of chardonnay to celebrate.

Polyanna
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Polyanna

It’s unlikely that balance will be totally separated, because they said they are ok with some imbalance in world PvP and they don’t think that trying to export the stat template concept from instanced PvP into the open world would work out well.

However, they have been doing a lot of behind the scenes upgrades to their balancing tool kit, like putting in the “aura” effects that let them turn a single dial to tweak damage overall up or down a little bit for a spec, without dorking around with the rotation or re-scaling individual powers.

And it looks like they are starting to do some “If (Target.isPlayer)” style balancing of PvE items and overall damage and healing where they see problems with PvE setups in open world PvP combat, and if they have the capability to do that, then we know they now have the option of turning the dials independently for PvP vs. PvE, which should make it easy to balance one without gimping the other.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

wow has balanced differently between (instanced) pvp and pve for many years now. >>

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Rick Mills

Seems to be a side effect of server merging plans – which is great!

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

sounds almost identical to wildstar’s wpvp system.

ergo choosing to flag gives more rewards from doing world pve while flagged.

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BalsBigBrother

Q: Where do you stand on WoW’s proposed new PvP system?
A: About two degrees left of north north west. Um no a bit more to your left, YOUR OTHER LEFT, yeah nearly got it, right ther… nope too far go right, geez this is going to take forever and I don’t have the time.

I guess I will go with a generic not caring either way as a non WoW player. ;-)

wpDiscuz