Move over, pixel ships: Star Citizen is now selling pixel land claims

The Star Citizen community was once again rocked yesterday by the addition of new pixelstuff to buy ahead of launch, this time in the form of land claim licenses. Running $50-$100, the licenses “[entitle] you to claim a single 4km x 4km [8km x 8km for the pricier version] parcel of UEE land that has been zoned for commercial, residential or industrial use as well as a GEOTACK marking beacon.”

While people-who-are-totally-OK-with-this and people-who-have-totally-had-enough fight this out on Reddit, Cloud Imperium has stressed that the claims are not pay-to-win.

“Will I have an advantage over other players if I buy a claim license now? No. Licenses can be bought for UEC in game and no one will be able to claim land before the mechanic is available in game for all. People that own claim licenses now, during the anniversary sale to support development, and people that earn the money in-game to buy one will be on equal footing assuming they have enough UEC, especially as there will be millions of locations for people to explore and claim within the Universe over the life time of the game.”

Likewise, early bird players can’t suck up all the “best” land plots now because that’s just not how it works – you’ll still have to scout out land in the game for your outpost to sit upon. In fact, you don’t even need a license at all to grab land; they’re just meant for players who want in-game “UEE protection when constructing their own outpost,” as “you can freely build or mine planets and moons outside UEE controlled space but you’re on your own as far as security goes.” And don’t worry about running out of room, as the devs said that the planets are so large that a single one could hold an outpost for all 1.9 million current supporters and still have room to spare.

“These land claims are being made available for pledging to help fund Star Citizen’s development,” CIG says.

Meanwhile, Star Citizen has a new Around the Verse out covering the Consolidated Outland Pioneer capital ship that ties into the new land claim system. Apparently developers went to a real world source for inspiration: automobile factories. It was there while looking at the production lines that the members found the basis for a giant flying factory that would cross the galaxy to establish surface outposts. Check it out below.

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267 Comments on "Move over, pixel ships: Star Citizen is now selling pixel land claims"

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Kevin McCaughey

This game is so dead on it’s feet that I don’t know why people are still investing in it.

miol
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miol

And don’t worry about running out of room, as the devs said that the planets are so large that a single one could hold an outpost for all 1.9 million current supporters and still have room to spare.

Can’t wait for a minority owning most of the UEE protected real-estate, especially after the richest persistent and still protected nodes are mined out! -.-

If they’re pricing plot claims for casual players, how much easier will it be for the min-maxers to get so many more?

Even if they decide one day to expand the territory protected by UEE, won’t those systems, bordering UEE now, not be the very first to be occupied & mined out by outlaws, long before that happens? o.O

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Joe Blobers

Good point. You may find some answer in the CIG Faq page.

You realize that you can make your business on any land, UEE or not UEE and that Land Claim give you just some extra to be a legal “farmer” of this square piece of land + UEE protection.

Also the UEE area include many systems hence planets/moons/asteroide. This is enough for millions of real players. But if several individual/group want to farm the very same little spot, among billions of others square land… game mechanism will apply…. Pew-Pew and reputation swift :)

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mysecretid

Oh, for f#ck’s sake …

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mike foster

I’m interested in the furor over this. Does it just taste especially sour to some people? CIG’s thing has been selling stuff that maybe will exist eventually in a maybe-eventually-finished game, so this doesn’t really feel as crazy as some critics are making it out to be (based on their established monetization model).

It’s kind of like…hmm. Like in whatever alternate reality SC exists in this seems totally normal, right?

Reader
Kevin McCaughey

I can just imagine the next sale, next week: “Ladies and gentlemen, we are offering you the exclusive chance to own, in advance, a Penis or Vagina! Yes, your own sexual organ and exclusive due to it being coloured green!! You can, of course, have pink, but that will be the standard post-launch colour and this marks you out as different from the crowd.

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Ken from Chicago

I was actually worried yesterday when I saw NONE of the top comments were about STAR CITIZEN. Once again, another fund raiser that gives no advantage to players who pay it. However, lots of buzz for the game and the news articles about them. Reality restored.

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John Mclain

*Grabs a bag of popcorn* No matter how this game ends up, it’s gonna be a hell of a light/shitshow.

OneEyeRed
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OneEyeRed

I was an early adopter of this game and finally got a refund. I have nothing left to comment at this point other then stating even if this debacle turns out to be the game of the century, I want nothing more to do with it. Thanks Chris, thanks a bunch….

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Denice J. Cook

Er, I don’t even play this thing and never backed it whatsoever, but I’d be mad if I did: I’d be wishing they’d complete the rest of the game first before they go adding more and more unfinished systems to it.

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ichi sakari

spent most of today bopping around the 3.0 PTU, had a blast, came in here to check out all of the hand-wringing – same FUD with a new bone to chew on

I wish they hadn’t announced this mechanic, but only due to the ‘ammo’ factor. There’s no need to buy a land claim, if someone wants one they can get it in-game, there’s more land available than can ever be purchased, any beacon sales now go to fund development

have fun guys being shocked and appalled, I’m enjoying the game (without owning any land)

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xanadox

Good to hear you can play the game. I would really appreciate if I could have these questions answered:

Is there 1- player game option?
How many players can fight in space combat now?
Is it open pvp ? Is it full loot?
What happens when you lose the fight?
How do you get the credits to repair and buy land and get skills…?
Is there any kind of teleport? or you have to go through star gates till the systems you want?
Are there NPCs with missions?

Thx in advance for your answers.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i play the game and am in ptu

there is no single player option but you can solo
ptu servers are 50 player caps
it is more or less open pvp, tho good luck finding anyone else in 3.0 atm. maybe levski is more popular than daymar tho idk. there is no full loot right now or any other incentive or penalty for pvping other than getting pirate status marking your vague direction.
alpha credits to repair/buy fuel/ammo/etc come from doing missions. you cannot obtain ships or ship gear in game yet except rental credits from grinding the arena modes. there is no “skills” progression.
you teleport back to ollisar on death right now and spawn in at ollisar (or grimhex if you die/load in while pirate state). there isn’t even the first full system yet, but QD is basically eve’;s warp and freelancer’s jump gates.
the NPC mission givers are not in game yet.

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xanadox

Thx for your answers.

Reader
ichi sakari

there is a way to force a private server, but this is an MMO
there are 50 players in each instance, framerates suffer if they’re all in the same area
there are armistice zones of limited size with no combat, but most areas are open PVP; there are some consequences to attacking, there is no looting corpses but you can take cargo that people are carrying
you respawn at a respawn location, this will change over time; there is an insurance mechanic to reclaim your ship if its destroyed
missions reward credits, there is no skill levelling
no teleport except on death, there’s no loading screens, and the current universe is limited to one planetary system
missions are provided through a smartphone type setup, npc mission givers are on the way

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xanadox

Thx for your answers.
So there is a 50 ppl limitation.
Can you change from one instance to other? To gather more or to meet friends?

Reader
Rhime

I would go to RSI’s website and check out the faq and do some investigating at your own pace. You won’t be disappointed…

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xanadox

I am a bit disapointed.

I think you mean to search in:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/help

but I can’t find there the answers. Thx to deekay_plus and ichi sakari, I got what I needed.

Reader
Zora

Blimey I’m old fashioned, to me if they are accepting money for the game, then the game is released… and if it is actually not then it is a scam.

I feel so old… get off my pretend-lawn, you punks…

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Rhime

Lol..scam.

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Kevin McCaughey

It’s the biggest scam I can ever remember, bigger than Bernie Madeoff.

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Joe Blobers

Thanks. At least scam is a familiar word together with Ponzi scheme and Jpges. This time you spare us with your “Penis or Vagina” evocation…

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Armsman

For a scam PTU Alpha 3.0 is fairly playable and working.

styopa
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styopa

comment image

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Robert Mann

In before somebody buys 1000 of these and takes over an area of interest (really liked system or two, maybe?) when the mechanic is released… because we all know that somebody will be willing to spend way too much money if they can, just to do something like that.

Also, it’s highly likely some mostly developed areas will be prime targets, so there will be spots this will be a problem…

Reader
Armsman

Even that much would barely get them a small chunk of ONE small moon. Given how much land area the game will have IMO – this is a tempest in a teapot. Other MMO charge more for a single player house, but rarely do they get called out for ‘just selling pixels’ the way SC does nearly everytime MOP decides to do an article.

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Robert Mann

There will certainly, as I noted, be developed areas where they can do this. The devs have already noted as much.

It won’t stop people from getting land, but they can still troll areas that people would like to settle this way.

And, in case you haven’t paid attention to my posts, I decry those other things and also note some good things about SC… but thanks for assuming I just have a target on the game.

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Dividion

So you really think someone will create 100 accounts so they can spend $100,000 to claim land the size of West Virginia, which they’d likely lose soon after for not paying in-game property taxes on it? Good for you.

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Robert Mann

Trolls will troll. Have you seen how much some people spend on these games, only to play epeen lord?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

in 2013 there was people who made dozens of accounts each with an basic aurie package on each that they were campaigning to be able to split the ships off the game copy so they could enslave their zergling guildies to work for them.

so yes people would totally do that.

and what in game property taxes? XD are you just making shit up now?

Estranged
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Estranged

DK, think they are making assumptions, based off AA.

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Dividion

Possibly. I think CIG just happened to “forget” to mention that we’ll have to pay property taxes on any land we claim. This is the UEE after all. And don’t forget that in “Death of a Spaceman” it’s expected that when you die your heir will need to pay an inheritance tax as well. If you become such a terrible criminal in the eyes of the UEE that you lose your citizenship, they’ll probably revoke your claim as well. Of course, if you’re playing that way, you probably want to set up shop in non-UEE space.

Every MMO I’ve ever played with open world (non-instanced) housing has had property taxes. Granted, SC will have more land mass than any other MMO ever created, but this sort of general housekeeping totally makes sense from a logical and performance perspective. The tax probably won’t be outrageous and we’ll likely be able to purchase several months worth in advance (that’s pretty normal as it supports our service men and women when they’re on deployment).

I’d be incredibly surprised if they didn’t implement property taxes. Death and taxes after all…

Reader
Kevin McCaughey

What nonsense with no factual basis at all. I mean really?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

so you just made up the taxes thing? XD

and death of a space man is probably not going to happen any more than the other two design docs posted in 2013. that they haven’t been referred to in years speaks volumes.

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Space Captain Zor

It’s a perfectly logical credit sink to assume will be in the game, even if they haven’t explicitly mentioned it yet.

Those design ideas could be abandoned by now but they could also just as easily be tabled until it’s time to actually work on them. Such as it is for concept ships that haven’t gone out of concept yet.

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PhoenixDfire

Wow, We’re getting closer to ‘Ready Player One’ and Surreal-estate.

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Simon Morris

From the Q&A:

Will I have an advantage over other players if I buy a claim license now?

No. Licenses can be bought for UEC in game and no one will be able to claim land before the mechanic is available in game for all. People that own claim licenses now, during the anniversary sale to support development, and people that earn the money in-game to buy one will be on equal footing assuming they have enough UEC, especially as there will be millions of locations for people to explore and claim within the Universe over the life time of the game.

Will players claiming the “best” plots of land on day one be an issue?

No. Due to the billions of square kilometres of available land over many planets and moons and of course as new Star Systems are introduced and explored, all players will have the ability to find and claim new “hot spots” throughout the lifetime of the game. Also, every player can have their own reason for what could be the ‘best’ piece of land, while some may judge a plot of land based on the type and quantity of natural resources that it contains, others might be looking for proximity to trade routes, and others could simply look for a quiet spot with a beautiful vista. This – combined with the fact that there’s an enormous amount of real estate available – means that prospecting and the purchase of land are two pieces of a supply-and-demand equation governing how rapidly land of a distinct perceived value will come on the market.

……

People still have a problem they need to question their motives. Bashing it just because you can?. Nothing affects core game-play if you don’t want to own land in-game. I understand the current climate default is suspicion with microtransactions and any potential P2W scenario – but how much more reassurance do you need?.

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Iver Gørtz

What gameplay? Is there a game yet to play? And if so, where can i buy it and play it?

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Simon Morris

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deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

most alpha early access games i’ve played that i’ve played that will ever have progression of some kind have that progression implemented as soon as early access starts.

and they also tend not to charge money for that progression ever. let alone before the progression is implemented in game.

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Joe Blobers

Correct but this is crowdunded model and they do not charge anything… unless you ask for by agreeing to pay such amount of pledges. This is not like pay now extra or get out of Alpha. This is not whales exclusive Alpha access, at least in PU as PTU have some sort of limitation (Evocati, Conierge, subscriber).
Someone can get in 3.0 and test everything limited to there start package ship or loaner ship if not available.

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Alex Willis

Bashing it just because you can?. Nothing affects core game-play if you don’t want to own land in-game.

Prospective players and donors, who have catapaulted this game into unforeseeable heights, are being asked to fund a very new and unproven mechanic in a game that doesn’t exist yet. What part of this is “because we can”? The scepticism of the haters has more basis in reality than does the backers of the game. (And for the record, I backed the game and bought two ships — at this point, literally years ago.)

If you don’t believe that buying land will affect anything important in gameplay…I have a space-bridge I’d like to sell you. (Which makes me wonder: is RSI selling bridges between these plots of land?)

Reader
Simon Morris

@Alex Willis;
“Prospective players and donors, who have catapaulted this game into unforeseeable heights, are being asked to fund a very new and unproven mechanic in a game that doesn’t exist yet.”
….

Umm… no they’re not. They are being told the opportunity to support the development further is there if they wish to take it – and if not the feature will be available for earned in-game currency.
I am not being asked specifically to fund this if I don’t wish to. I have no idea where you are getting this from and why you feel persecuted.
Personally speaking I have no intention of ever buying land for cash, If I want land I will fund it through earned in-game currency – but if a player thinks they will have very little time to play Star Citizen in the PU ,but expects to enjoy it nonetheless then why would i begrudge them from saving time and buying a claim for cash?.

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Alex Willis

I am not being asked specifically to fund this if I don’t wish to. I have no idea where you are getting this from and why you feel persecuted.

And *I* have no idea why you think I’m feeling persecuted. Like many others, I’m worried that this organization (which, again, many of us have donated to) is development-gambling with hundreds of millions of (our) donor dollars. Scepticism is not a feeling of persecution. It’s an expression of disbelief and concern.

Nobody ever demands you fund these elements. It’s all voluntary. Nobody is disputing this. But it’s more than a little naive to say that, relative to a game system, a cash-for-time grind substitute is not an advantage. Most of us on this board have had plenty of MMO experiences — and we know a fishy deal when we smell one. I’m not saying this is one of those cases with 100% certainty, but you can’t say there’s nothing weird about it simply because the sales pitch is “voluntary”. ALL sales pitches are voluntary. Otherwise, they’d be extortion.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Alex: “But it’s more than a little naive to say that, relative to a game system, a cash-for-time grind substitute is not an advantage”

I am with you we few ships owner… I did not bought the land Claim not because it is weird, to me land or ship are still a way to support the project, but because of the price I feel a bit high. At 20$ I would have bought one.

Does iot give an advantage? yes like owning a Freelancer day one. But it is only and advantage in terms ot time or to be precise, available time to spend in SC or any MMO.
I can’t spend 20 hours a week on an MMO but I can spend 100$ on a ship that would take 2 weeks to get with ingame credits. This or subscription which is not the choosen model.

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Space Captain Zor

I’m still not sure how offering different ways to support development of a game that’s still in development “fishy.” Unpopular, perhaps, but with some business you don’t have customers if you don’t have a diverse range of things to appeal to those wallets.

Immediately putting in micro transactions on a title that’s launched as a retail product and hiding otherwise inaccessible content or progression behind those MTs is what I’d call predatory or fishy or whatever. So far, Star Citizen can’t be accused of that as it’s still in development. You can of course yell all about not being able to earn a ship (or really much of anything yet) in game but you can buy one via pledge but it is still. in. development.

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Simon Morris

The only thing fishy about his is the timing. I simply do not understand why CIG have opened themselves up to another thing that can be seized upon by the sceptics as ammunition. There’s no benefit to the players to buying now. No-one will be able to take advantage of these certificates until the PU goes live, and even then they won’t be totally necessary. If the only motive by CIG was to get another revenue stream then this has backfired because the sceptics have predictably seized on it.

“But it’s more than a little naive to say that, relative to a game system, a cash-for-time grind substitute is not an advantage.” –

Except it is true. If customers have 2 -5 hours per week to play games over 20+ then it’s good to cater for the gaming-time disadvantaged if you want to be inclusive . Of course others will also take advantage of said system but so what – what’s the alternative? – lock out the little [time to play] guy?.

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Alex Willis

I think you’re right about that. And it’s a shame, because otherwise, the idea of owning land in the game could be very cool. I mean…it’s kind of related to why we’re all interested in the game, right? Star pioneers, etc? Poorly timed idea indeed, that could have seen a lot of interest later in in the game’s life-cycle.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

‘Later in the game’s life-cycle’?

You can look it an equivalent of buying an apartment in a house that is still being built (quite normal), although in this case its the whole city around that house that is in process being built.

Skoryy
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Skoryy

I’m starting to suspect that Roberts’s personal goal is to create a player base consisting solely of whales.

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Alex Willis

This is super f*cked up.

We’re now in the dimension of pure financial speculation. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculation) Except the motive to participate here is…somewhat more mysterious. What is the payoff? If it’s not P2W, what accounts for the interest? This is all fascinating from a human behaviour perspective but rather like watching a human vivisection from a gaming culture perspective.

cryinglightning39
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cryinglightning39

Vivisection. Haven’t read that word in a long time. Last time I did was in the context of animal vivisection and activism.

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Nate Woodard

There was a time when I wanted to play this game. I’ve moved on so much that when I look back, I hardly recognize what I was interested in to begin with.

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Alex Hyer

And yet, in 10 years when it releases, you’ll be there playing it anyway.

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Jonny Sage

Heres a bunch of pretend stuff people paid for that apparently dont exist. We must be all having a shared delusion.

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Humble DG

You should activate Windows so that you get important updates and features as they are released.

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Jonny Sage

NEVER. Actually yeah, i know. I installed the wrong version. Went to activate and it said nope. Have to reinstall but thats such a pain.

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Armsbend

Easily worth $160 million USD + future donations. An amazing screenshot of a truly amazing game. Totally not a scam – clearly.

LOL

Bernie Madoff provided people with portfolio information and you could even take your money out if you wanted – until the entire house of cards toppled it was great. Listen, whatever you need to do to rationalize your mistake – I want you to do it for your own personal health. I understand the embarrassment of not being able to walk it back at this point.

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Joe Blobers

The embarrassment could be to see Prophecy of Doom or Madoff syndrome as soon a question mark is raised, genuine or not? Is SC a scam? If not they are smart enough to know how much expenses they have versus pledges + investors + cash bucket and there financial interest is to switch as soon as possible at a Micro- transactions model… big money is coming after release not fefore which are many to cover wages but not make profi….. And if they were totally fine for a time (financially speaking)?

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Jonny Sage

Clearly there will be no more content after this screen shot – clearly.

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Dividion

We all know you’re going to play it too, Armsbend. See you in the ‘Verse.

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Utakata

That will unlikely happen.

Besides, it doesn’t seem that Armsbend-san has an issue with the game per say, rather on how its being funded. There is a difference between “haters”, and those who are “suspicious of it”.

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Jonny Sage

The good news is no one has to pay for it if they dont like it.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

I think the problem here is that many de facto “haters” are being graciously considered “suspicious” – to the detriment of actual factual criticism, which gets buried by the over-the-top reactions from the “haters”.

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Alex Hyer

What physical items do you walk away with when you buy a movie ticket?

A torn paper stub?

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Jonny Sage

Memories? Entertainment? A temporary license to sit in a physical location and engage in an experience?

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Armsbend

No one is talking about physical items.

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Alex Hyer

“Heres a bunch of pretend stuff people paid for”

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Castagere Shaikura

This just in..EA has been a secret backer for this game all along.

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Kevin McCaughey

I wonder could it be a rescuer. That’s an interesting scenario.

Xijit
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Xijit

They already dealt with his horseshit once before: this guy and his “game development” ideals are what caused EA to shut down Origin Systems, and before that … the reason why EA could buy them in the first place is because Origin was going into bankruptcy (for like the 3rd time).

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Alex Hyer

Really don’t care. The available real estate in the game will be huge. Entire planets.

I’ll just buy my spot with in-game money.

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Dividion
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Armsbend

I certainly wouldn’t want to be mentioned in the same breath as Shroud. Do you?

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Except to a vocal group of people going around attacking game after game, developer after developer, SoA is still just another online game in development and known mainly, if at all, for its connection to ‘Lord British’ and through him to Ultima.

Storms inside teacups may look huge and dramatic from inside the tea cup, but its still in a tea cup they take place.

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Kevin McCaughey

But you can have your own special teacup, all in porcellain, for a fee of only $9000!

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Cheap. A Song dynasty porcelain tea cup can go for millions of dollars. ;)

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Simon Morris

I do believe this is a very cool mechanic introduced [albeit preliminary ] at completely the wrong time, especially following recent pay-to-win scandals.

Discuss it, outline it and finesse it as a concept sure – but don’t go selling land claim certificates just yet, it just gives off completely the wrong type of message. This should of been introduced [and sold as] a game mechanic at the preparatory weeks before or live launch of the PU.

For me the timing of this is what has caused this community [and predictably press articles] furore.
Personally I don’t understand why anyone would rush to buy land claim certificates now or anytime up until nearer the live launch of the PU to be honest – I mean… It’s not like you can move on any of your preparatory investment until the PU launches anyway!, and by then you will be able to buy said certificates then anyway – which makes me think it’s a slightly odd non-priority move by CIG to be selling them now if the motive is just to generate ongoing funds.

It certainly has played into the hands of people that like to bash Star Citizen’s funding model by giving them ammunition – in that sense it’s a bit of a PR own-goal that could of been avoided.

For those making EA Battlefront II comparisons – it’s not anything like that.
CIG is not making you miss out on playing a character unless you P2W or without 4000 hours of grind. They are selling certificates enabling you to file a land claim when the PU goes live.
Every Star Citizen registered, all 1.9 million of them could fit on half a moon – and there will be hundreds of proceedurally generated moons and planets in hundreds of star systems and you are worried about what? – missing out on a spot?. Don’t make me laugh.

That said this was an unecessary PR faux-pas that could of been avoided in my opinion.

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Armsbend

“but don’t go selling land claim certificates just yet, it just gives off completely the wrong type of message.”

You are presuming that they are 1) not running out of money and 2) they are not padding their own personal bank accounts with inflated salaries.

I am working off of the opposite presumption.

cryinglightning39
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cryinglightning39

Nice…

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Terren Bruce

Anyone who buys stuff for Star Citizen at this point is just delaying the game’s release because they have no incentive to ever finish it. You’re not supporting a dream game anymore people, you’re making sure your dream game never comes out at all.

They have all the money they could ever need. You did your job. STOP FEEDING THEM MORE FEATURE BLOAT. Just stop it already.

They don’t need the money anymore. You’re not helping anything.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

We should stop buying Apple’s new gadgets because it has all the money it ever needs etc?

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Kevin McCaughey

At least you actually get something for your money.

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Joe Blobers

We got 3 modules including 3.0 PTU. This is not all we are expecting. 100% or close will be at Beta or release. So yes we got something, because crowdfunded, step by step model.

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Jeff Weideman

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kgptzac

Not a troll when the logic is sound. Like all monetizations, if it’s working then why change it? If monthly based subscription worked timelessly then there wouldn’t be a proliferation of F2P games. If microtransaction is so evil and detested by everybody’s wallet then it would be abandoned. By same logic, if a game is already making a lot of money by selling the hype, then there’s no reason to change the status quo.

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shear

This game is attracting a very different group of people (whales)

I mean even if\when it comes out I could never play it and be on an even footing with everyone else. You can buy all the ships now you can buy land, what’s next?

When it comes out you’ll be able to buy in-game money with real cash so, in essence, you will always be able to purchase things with real money. That’s not a game an average player can compete in.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”This game is attracting a very different group of people (whales)”

SC is probably attracting an higher volume of whales than others MMO because many guys who pledged first played already CR’s games. They have a job and deeper pocket than a student.

How much is it breaking game balance against a minimun starter package? The whale can have multipe ships, several squre land faster. Is it an issue when talking about billions of square km? What about Org? Is it even fair for an individual to compete against an agressive Org made exclusively of none whales players ?

Why will make the game is interaction of players. How many griefers shooting everything at sight? Is the reputation model to keep them away?
Whales have little to do whith the game being fun or not…. At the opposite, they can allow CIG to keep monthly subscription away as long as needed. Something many are looking for.

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Space Captain Zor

I think the notion that it’s going to end up a competitive (PVP) game will drown out eventually when the developers iterate it down to a more realistic product. That is, if they’re smart enough to not make the mistake of making it a pvp swamp for whales.

Yeah, it’s super popular to a certain audience and group of backers for them to get on camera and talk about to-be-developed game mechanics that allow assholes to be assholes to each other, but.. My hunch is still betting on CR’s history of titles and early statements and wishes for the experience to win out on how the final game will be. He likes PVE, he likes coop, he likes the Firefly ‘verse narrative. He likes the Millennium Falcon analogy which is why the Constellation is his most important ship. He’s not known for having any PVP emphasis in his titles except for maybe Wing Commander Armada.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

The reason why there wasn’t PvP in his earlier games is because online gaming was in its infancy. It couldn’t be done.

Personally I think the PvP aspect may be the game’s biggest problem in reaching the entire potential audience it could have – same as with EVE and Elite Dangerous.

I don’t think it will be scaled back, although I could imagine in-game ways of getting around it.

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Alberto

I was looking at this and at first I was a little upset ( flashbacks to ArchAges land owning system) but then I realized, All this is actually is a “Bobs Parking Spot” Sign. It does not prevent someone from just Squatting on your land, Mining it, building on it, or jut plain destroying your property. My feeling is its a bit early to sell these before the mechanic is in the game or available for testing on the Alpha servers but then so are a lot of the ships mechanics. After reading the threads on reddit ( which didn’t explode most people seem to be fine with it) and the forums….its all meh for me I’ll just grab some free land and defend it with the rest of my Org mates. Also this is Not a new idea as Project:Entropia has been selling virtual Land plots for thousands of dollars for a couple of years now. And BitCoin is now worth almost 10,000, it seems virtual things are worth a lot of money or at least whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

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Shiro Madoushi

So what stops a whale from buying 1000 of these plots?

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Dividion

They could do that, but there’s a maximum of 10/acct, so they’d need to operate 100 accounts. And if you’re going that large, you might as well get the large plots, so that’s $100,000. That would give them 64,000 sq km of area (about the size of West Virginia).

West Virginia covers 0.012% of the land mass on Earth. You would need 8,333 backers just like him to claim all of Earth’s land mass. That would only cost $833,300,000.

I don’t know what the taxes would be on that, but they probably wouldn’t be able to pay them, so the UEE would take back the claim for defaulting on the payment, and then that’d be a complete waste of money.

Estranged
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Estranged

Nah, huge alliance finds a spot with amazing natural resources and buys it up, along with everything around it. They have a major advantage,through real life money.

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Dividion

EDIT – Sorry, that was “total area” rather than “land area” on Earth. I blame google.

West Virgina covers 0.042% of the land mass on Earth. You would need 2,365 backers, with a cost of $236,500,000.

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Jeff Weideman

You have any idea how HUGE these worlds are?

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Joe Blobers

Nobody… except I would really like to have his email to send him a warm Thanks in name of all backers not having the desire or the financial base to spend more than the starter package :)

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A Dad Supreme

It finally runs out of money.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

((Deleted by mod. Please review our commenting code.))

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Shiro Madoushi

That is very reassuring.

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Alberto

Right now its a limit of 10. They could buy as much as they want though, its infinite land as you could have Millions of people living on just 1 of the thousands of worlds , planets and asteroids. They can’t police it all having the land title just means “this is mine” and whenever an A.I. patrol comes by they will help defend it but its not a Force field, Anyone who wants can just Squat , harvest resources, on your property its up to you to keep them away. Its just like in real life even if you had the money owning more then 10 houses would become a logitics nightmare. Most people will probably just put all their land in 1 area to make it as big as possible. Also i don’t think you understand how big each world is you could give ea star citizen 1.9 million ( 5 land plots each and you wouldn’t fill 1 Moon let alone a planet. the finished game will have millions of places to live and every time they add a new system hundreds of thousands of new spots will be created..its pretty much infinite. Also land is Free you can take as much as you can guard, the A.I police just won’t help you defend it

Estranged
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Estranged

Last year, SC stated they had around 500K paying customers. The number you are quoting is registered users on the website.

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Space Captain Zor

Oh boy.. Let’s play some Would You Rather

Would you rather this be an EA funded game? Or any AAA publisher?

Estranged
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Estranged

Justifying this bullshit. Same ole lies, different company and financial plan.

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Space Captain Zor

What exactly is CIG lying about?

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Armsbend

He is saying he wants to complete this game.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor, is exaggeration better? CR and his imagination?

Maybe it is the hardcore fans.

The whole idea this isn’t PTW is the lie of all lies.

Just be honest.

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Space Captain Zor

Exaggerating what?

If I knew exactly what it is you think is being “won” that might help inform a response.

Estranged
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Estranged

I’m done here. When “new” players see thousands of dollars of advantage killing their dreams at launch, they will be finished as well.

Perhaps 42 will satisfy them.

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Space Captain Zor

Well, if CIG is dumb enough to leave the game in such a state that something like that can happen, then ok. Why don’t you let them finish iterating and developing first. If it launches that way then we will all have something to bitch about.

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Terren Bruce

Well EA would actually release the game. And they’d charge for stuff actually working and in the game and not just on a drawing board somewhere.

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Space Captain Zor

You think CIG won’t release it? Because…?

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Raimo Kangasniemi

To a certain type of gamer, all these are just different heads of the same Hydra…

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Space Captain Zor

It’s Hydra until proven otherwise ie a released game, right? ;)

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shear

Whats the difference at this point?

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Space Captain Zor

This point being.. still in development?

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A Dad Supreme

Why are my only other choices hemlock or arsenic while Star Citizen offers me strychnine?

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Space Captain Zor

Exactly, lol. I don’t get how people can’t see how obtuse their complaints can get.

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Bryan Correll

Will I have an advantage over other players if I buy a claim license now? No.

They misspelled ‘Yes.’ Don’t insult my intelligence with the old ‘you can earn it in-game’ line. Bob and Joe start playing Star Citizen at the same time. Bob came in cold and starts with nothing but the Scootypuff Jr. that is the default starting ship. Joe paid thousands of dollars to buy an armada of ships and some large land holdings. Joe has an advantage. To say otherwise is like trying to claim that Donald Trump’s kids didn’t have any advantages over Joe Crackpipe’s kids. After all, everything the Trump kids have can theoretically be acquired by anyone.
Online gaming used to be a great equalizer. Everyone paid the same entry fee and once you were in game your level of success was determined by some combination of time, effort, and skill. I miss those days.
As for Star Citizen I was as excited as anyone when it was first announced. I loved the old Wing Commander games and was thrilled at the idea of an MMO from their creator. But not anymore.
BTW, I am not saying that this is a scam. I fully expect that at some point the game will really really be released. It may even be great. But no matter how good the game is, the excesses of the pre-purchase cash shop will remain a festering sore at it’s core.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Bryan: “Bob and Joe start playing Star Citizen at the same time”

You are absolutely right. Yes both won’t start with the same level or capacity, one will gain more credits from start than the other and can probably shoot dead without too much risk the other guy with his starter package. This is indisputable and if you cross the path of a guy who love to make other life miserable that will ends up as a bad experience for one of them…

Now 6 months, a year or two after. Bob made his way the galaxy with his starter package, not spending another $,. he have now a fleet, millions of credits, AI’s in every single room, uptodate ships with the best military outfit. He worked hard and spend numerous time to build his little empire.
Then come Joe, so happy to take off in his brand new Aurora… and he cross Bob path, in a bad mood this day. Bob decide to shoot that pesky little Aurora because… well because. Is if fair to the new comer to get shooted by Bob with is Warden ship full of guns that costs more than two Aurora?
I do not think so, and the new comer won’t ask if Bob got his Warden with cash or credits.

cryinglightning39
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cryinglightning39

Scooty Puff jr. and Joe Crackpipe’s kids. Lmao. I like the cut of your jib Sir.

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Dividion

Okay, so what if Bob started the game with his Scootypuff Jr and a single land claim, while Joe started with his massive fleet but no claims to land? Now which one is the winner?

Then, by coincidence, they both hire Charlie to survey some properties they’re interested in. Charlie finds some promising locations for them with good resources. Bob goes and gets his land, but Joe has to earn the in-game credits with his fleet of ships.

What Joe doesn’t know is that Charlie also sold the survey data to Dave, who swoops in before Joe can claim those properties and takes them for himself.

Sounds like Joe, even though he spent way more than any of the others, is the only loser in that situation. But yet he still went out and earned the credits and can plant his claim on some other land in the massive universe. If he goes outside of UEE space he doesn’t even need a claim.

It’s not all black and white/right and wrong.

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Bryan Correll

You’re arguing the relative advantages of ships vs. land. My point was that anyone who buys land and/or ships (or Darth Vader unlocks) has a significant early advantage over someone who doesn’t pay extra for such items at all. I also don’t see it as an issue of right vs. wrong. They really aren’t trying to hide anything other than making the spurious “no advantage” claims. Any potential player who pays attention to the development of the game knows full well what they’re getting into.

Estranged
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Estranged

Bryan, indeed. This is a whaling expedition. CR admitted big donors would be pissed if plebs could gain their ships quickly.

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Alex Js.

Eh, I’m perfectly ok with idiots willing to spend their own money on such truly meaningless (judging by the descriptions of these land claims) things. I’m just curious how much $$$ the Cloud Imperium has left considering that they’re still pushing for these “sell any possible virtual item for real life $$$” things…

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Kevin McCaughey

The time since their last sale is the thing that worries me. Are they close to finally burning through the money? I’ve never seen so much feature creep in any game ever and I think that was their biggest mistake. I think this is all going to come to a close soon.

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Joe Blobers

Quote: Kevin: “I think this is all going to come to a close soon.”

True… and they are precisely at 90 days top close :)

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Arktouros

I’ve largely avoided Star Citizen threads but to me this largely smacks of the same issue I have with Crowfall at this stage.

Developers keep selling items. Items they then claim will be available to be earned through in game methods as well and therefore it’s not Pay2Win. Ok. Now everything we do in games can be reduced back to a single currency: Time. How long did something take you to do? How long did it take me to earn X so I could acquire Y? Therefore it also stands to reason that if you can just directly acquire Y for Z money then ultimately X time/effort is equal to Z dollars.

My issue comes is that if the systems for acquiring these items is not in place yet because the game is still being developed then how did they come up with that particular price point of Z dollars? Is that going to be consistent? If a ship worth $100 that takes 40 hours of grinding will a ship worth $1000 take 400 hours of grinding? Does a $100 plot of land take 40 hours grinding? Truthfully I don’t think they have an answer, and that’s alarming because how did they come up with those price points then if they don’t have an approximation of in game time/effort per item?

The inherent danger should be self-apparent especially after seeing systems like Battlefront 2 having extreme unlock times next to it’s business model that lets you bypass those timers. It’s incredibly difficult to design a system to be balanced without paying when paying is there from before there was even a day 1. This, in turn, makes me leery about the whole system in the first place. It’s like they came up with the price points they want to sell the items for, now they’ll design the game systems to support those price points.

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cryinglightning39

I wouldn’t get too hung up on price points. It’s usually based on “how much can we get for it?” Or just straight pulling numbers out of thin air.

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Alberto

All good points and something that been discussed many times. Basically what we are hoping is that as soon as they get the land claim mechanic working, they will release it in alpha and beta and can then figure out How much should the Time = Money? How long or difficult should a mission be and how much money is that then worth. how does this translate into the cost of goods? until that happens everything is placeholder and prices are being pulled out of peoples butts.

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A Dad Supreme

Developers keep selling items. Items they then claim will be available to be earned through in game methods as well and therefore it’s not Pay2Win. Ok. Now everything we do in games can be reduced back to a single currency: Time. How long did something take you to do? How long did it take me to earn X so I could acquire Y? Therefore it also stands to reason that if you can just directly acquire Y for Z money then ultimately X time/effort is equal to Z dollars.

I don’t nor ever did, have a problem with the “time” aspect of earning things in an MMO.

If anything, it personally made MMOs more of an “addiction” or “attraction”. That feeling of finally achieving something always gave me a boost so it’s somewhat true what EA said in an ugly way.

That said, I don’t like P2W but that’s the natural progression from when a company sells items in a game that start out “harmless”. It then leads to things that can’t be acquired through normal gameplay and only through a cash shop. It’s been proven time and time again.

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Rick Russ

Everything they sell now will be earnable in game.

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Arktouros

Oh I one hundred percent agree with where EA was originally coming from with their comment. I too remember a time when games and achievements in game took a long time and it’s why I enjoy a game like Black Desert because it feels very retro in that aspect.

However the fundamental issue is once you start involving monetized solutions to bypass that time we run into the scenario where is it possible to discern if the systems were designed independently from each other? If a space ship takes 40 hours of grind time to acquire or $100 (to use my fictitious numbers) would the 40 hours of grind be 40 hours if there was no option to acquire it for $100? Would it, say, be 20 hours of grind? Is there a designed incentive for you to instead spend the $100 to save yourself the 40 hours because your time is more valuable than $2.50 an hour?

And for games like Crowfall or Star Citizen (and others) who started up with the cash shop for items that question is always going to be a muddy, ugly question for them. Of course they’re going to claim (like EA) that the numbers are set for a sense of pride and accomplishment but of course the on the consumer end of things we can’t help but wonder how fucky that is because there’s no frame of reference.

Estranged
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Estranged

This is your answer. Even Chris admits, on video, this concept of gaining items in game easily will not be happening.

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Arktouros

Oh I am super aware (and have the MOP article bookmarked for the inevitable Star Citizen monetization outrage articles) he said that. As much as I’d love to draw the 1:1 comparison if EA designing BF2 with extra grindy mechanics to push the cash shop and StarCitizen having extra grindy mechanics to push the cash shop we just have to wait to have that wonderful conversation till we get the details of how it’s designed. Arguing without facts wastes everyone’s time.

Estranged
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Estranged

Ark, he said it, that is a fact. Money will buy power and a significant time advantage. I don’t need the exact numbers.

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Joe Blobers

An MMO is not made to last 1 year or two but as many as possible, IE: Players have fun, Company stay afloat.

Money drive the world included game companies an our very own life.
Copmpany need cash to pay wages. Players provide that cash. Either you have a subscription model (WOW) or micro-transations + cash to credits equalt to a montlhy subsciption ($ to credits will have a cap).

The day someone can create multi millions dollars project and not charge them to someone or have someone pay for maintenance, this guy will get the Nobel price… just before receiving a bankruptcy note :)

Estranged
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Estranged

The ethics of how we raise money is highly important.

Also, people like to pick on large publishers around here.

Well, they are publicly owned and are required to show their financial results. They have accountability.

Sorry, I want to see the books before giving CR another dime. He has zero accountability.

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Arktouros

As a Black Desert player I’m kinda keen to the whole “nickle and dime” situation when it comes to selling items for power. For example being able to sell cash shop items on the market place for in game silver seems super strong at first, but when you actually compare the amount of money you can make vs money earned in game it’s an advantage but not one that will make a significant enough difference to matter. The same goes for many (not all) of BDO’s monetization strategy where few are inherently egregious enough to really be outright awful but at the same time you know something fucky is going on.

So I can’t really say that, for sure, that money will buy significant amount of power that it will matter in the grand scheme of the game. Also as all of these systems are in development, let alone balanced, it’s hard to make an objective call regarding these systems before actual details emerge. For all we know Roberts wants to avoid a Battlefront style backlash and scales things to a more reasonable level? Development and priorities change so it’s unfair to prematurely judge something before it’s fully out and available.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

I expect they come up with the price of items they are selling like any other company selling a product: They will make more or less educated guess (after customer surveys or not) how much people are willing to pay.

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Arktouros

Your statement misses the point entirely. If the basis of their argument is that these items are available in game and are not pay2win how can they make that claim if they haven’t designed the system in which you acquire them in game let alone balanced/rebalanced said system? Forgive the hyperbolic example for this thought exercise but what if paying $1 in the cash shop is equivalent of 10 hours grinding money in game? Going the other direction, is spending $50 on a ship worth it if it takes you only 30 minutes to obtain it in game? There’s an inherent problem where the prices are set first, justified by the fact they will be obtainable in game, but then have no system in place for how much effort that time/effort/dollars represent.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Different people ‘grind’ at different speed, some do it solo and others in groups.

Putting an exact value for time spend can’t be really done.

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Arktouros

It 100% can actually be done and we do it a lot already in other games and Star Citizen will be no different.

So lets start with the different speed part. So lets say Player A has to start out with just the box purchase price and has to go earn income in Ship1. Doing missions they earn 5k credits/hr. Ship2 costs 50k credits so that’s 10 hours they’ll have to go “grind” before they can move on to Ship2. Doing missions in Ship2 he can earn 10k credits/hr but Ship3 costs 200k credits so that’s 20 hours. So that’s a minimum of 30 hours into Ship3. You could argue that a person who stays in Ship1 would have to grind 40 hours instead in Ship1 to jump ahead to Ship3 but this is irrelevant as the fastest route forward is the only one that matters.

This is in fact more problematic for the game as if you’re capable of generating that much more income being able to swipe your card out of the gate and instantly start generating a lot more income means you’re going to pull away from someone who didn’t. Those kinds of advantages are the backbone of most arguments for pay2win, but again we’ll have to see what system they actually come up with in game.

Grouping just tweaks the numbers. For example if two people in Ship1 can do the same missions as a solo person in Ship2 but only earn 7.5k/hr instead of 5k/hr that means from the get go they’re earning more/hr. That can get them into Ship3 that much faster at 27 hours instead of 30. At that point the meta shifts to people grouping up more because they’re rewarding more for doing so.

It’s all just numbers man.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Now imagine trying to calculate ‘right’ price for time used for all the items that can be bought in the game, from ships to vehicles to land?

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Arktouros

Since everything can be broken down to the standard currency of time it’s simply a matter of setting how much you want your time/$ ratio to be. It’s not hard nor complicated.

What it is though is messy and ugly when you haven’t come up with the ingame money/hr ratios. At that point you’ve created a scenario where it’s impossible to tell if the RL$$/hr has had an impact on the ingame money/hr ratio.

What that means is that if something takes you 40 hours to grind in game does it only take that 40 hours to grind for because they want you to spend the $100 instead? If there was no $100 option would they have designed it as 20 hours or 30 hours of grind for the same ship? The fact is no one will ever be able to cleanly answer that because they’ve muddied the ability to answer that question from the start.

It also makes claiming the game as not Pay2Win a difficult to verify claim. If the system was designed to be overly grindy in order to incentivize paying money then that veers pretty clearly into Pay2Win territory as the advantages you gain by paying are significant enough to have a large impact on game play.

We’ll see what they come up with, but my gut tells me it’s going to be pretty awful based on past interviews (below) but you never really know.

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Rick Russ

Early on after release it may make a difference but after I don’t see it giving any advantage.

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Arktouros

We can’t say that for sure until we know how the system is designed and what time/dollar ratios they establish for their various systems. If it takes me a year of grinding to get the same value as someone who swipes their card for $1000 then that’s a full year I’ll behind that person since while I’m still catching up then they’re moving ahead. Will it be that big of an impact? We don’t know yet. It’s all speculative, which means you can’t really form the basis of an argument that something is or isn’t pay2win until we know the details of a system that, seemingly, hasn’t even been created or balanced yet.

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Rick Russ

And if you and your crew blow up his $1000 ship with a bunch of cheap ships you’re the better player. Remember the game is all about team work when you get to that level. Most people will be running around in the more easily replaceable ships. Vessels of that size will be to iffy to go gallavanting around in.

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Arktouros

Your point is perfectly 100% valid.

It just has absolutely nothing to do with my point that if you swipe your card and you’re suddenly a year ahead in terms of income compared to another player the not being pay2win thing starts to enter pretty questionable territory. Whether you can delete someone’s year of income or not is irrelevant to the point how that year of income was acquired.

But like I said above, we’ll circle back to this once they actually design the system in which you earn money in game. Someone is going to do the math on the amount of hours it takes to acquire said items and then we can have a discussion on it. Until then it’s just a lot of theoretical numbers back and forth on how good or bad the system will be.

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Rick Russ

Fair enough I can see your point

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Doctor Sweers

Wow…did I choose the wrong profession or what? I have a doozy of an idea for a game. $50 and I’ll tell you about it!

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Armsbend

Would the right profession be scamming people for money? You can do that and not be a video game designer.

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Shiro Madoushi

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TheDonDude

Dude, I’m not falling for that.

Now maybe if you had a few jpgs for me…

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Rick Russ

Here’s an idea if you think it’s a scam don’t buy or play 🤔

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Wilhelm Arcturus

Here’s an analogy, if I’m not robbing your house don’t call the police.

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Rick Russ

Lol exactly

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Armsbend

It is a scam. I wouldn’t buy or play this piece of shit if you gave me $10,000 worth of concepts ships and a new rig to play it on. What I will do however, is comment on it until it is dissolved.

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Rick Russ

Seriously? Is that all you have to do with your time? It’s a game if you don’t like it let I flow to the way side and die. No body is forcing you to buy anything.

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Armsbend

No, that is not all I have to do with my time. I do make the time to do it though. Thanks for your concern. Any other questions while I’m here?

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deekay_plus

#REKTLIKESHREK

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Rick Russ

Nope that about covers it

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Lone Crusader Destroys Evil Developer With Online Comments – when has that kind of headline ever come true?

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deekay_plus

unlike you guys armsbend isn’t on a crusade, he’s just shitposting in his usual watering hole.

not marauding across the internet on a religious crusade to purge the nine heavens of impurity with a thousand defense force posts.

Estranged
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Estranged

We need a classics page. lulz

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Utakata

Welp…I am starting to get that feeling that there is a lot of snake in that digital oil they’re selling. Maybe it’s just me. Maybe I am being unfair. But when a game company keeps selling stuff that hasn’t even left the drawing board yet to fund itself…all the baloney detection alarms in my pigtails start ringing off and how. :(

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Honestly. Or not.

This is like a Buster Keaton movie where you think the worst has already happened but you have no idea what’s coming.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

We might end up seeing land speculation on few popular planets and ‘gated communities’ -type concentrations of whales and lesser marine mammals on some more popular planets, but honestly…

This seems like a total waste of money because the land is anything but a limited commodity in the game and without some Trantor / Coruscant -type concentration of player population, any monument to your ego you build will be very much in the Ozymandias-type “Behold the mighty and despair” -style vanity, where the size of the game world alone will dwarf you.

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Cyclone Jack

Yeah, I don’t see the need to rush something like this (ie: buy these now). 3.0 still isn’t live, and even that will only bring 3 moons, and no planets. Heck the function to use these are still a long ways off (I’d guess a year at minimum), and then you’d need to wait for the Pioneer to be in place, resources to build Outposts, etc. Plus, like you said, there isn’t going to be a lack of land.

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cmdr_cotic

Cropped because anonymity is deserved despite what he says.
This guy bought 10x $100 land claims right away, almost like a badge of honour or some crap.

comment image

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Joe Blobers

Nice picture. Thanks to the backer if it is a true one.

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Alberto

Yeah that a fairly well known person in the community, he got about 30K+ invested in the game so far last he was interviewed..which was like a year ago. Basically he has a high paying Job and he considers this his hobby, he says his wife has as least that much money invested in her anime/toy collection if not more. And do you know what his plan is with all these ships?
To Loan them out to people who can’t afford them or just want to try them out in game. He also gives out packages and has been known to have donated to people thousands of dollars in ships for giveaways and raise money for charities. He’s basically sent out this tweet as a Big Middle finger to people claiming these will never sell.

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Space Captain Zor

If as you say they did it just as an ego boost, that’s pretty lame. However as a collector of Macross toys and similar stuff, which is a pricy hobby, I know of people who have spent far FAR more than the above figure on that hobby alone. Sure, it’s a physical product but still just as frivolous as most hobbies are.

People value their own disposable income very differently in a relative sense. While $47k may seem completely reasonable to that person’s senses vs their income, $470 may seem just as sensible to another person. $47 to yet another. $4.7k to another. Etc etc.

If the game get’s made to the scope that everyone dreams it will and that person above is happy with it, then their money was well spent. They will know they helped make it happen despite all odds and/or wishes against it.

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

Damn. I thought my ~$100 was a lot. I could get a new car for that. If there are any whales here, I could use a new car. Just sayin’. :)

Estranged
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Estranged

Lots of homeless people could use real land plots, food and houses.

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Boom

How long can this farce continue

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Space Captain Zor

I mean, people bought will buy and continue to buy loot boxes in EA games. That alone should tell you how willing the consumers of this industry are to spend money despite the bad behavior it promotes.

That being said, I don’t really feel the continued diversification of ways to support development of SC is bad behavior as long as it doesn’t become something that imbalances the game for people.

Estranged
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Estranged

Continued use of EA to justify this ridiculous business model is hilarious.

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Space Captain Zor

How am I justifying what I refer to as NOT bad behavior by citing ACTUAL bad behavior? Give me a break, dude.

Estranged
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Estranged

Zor – EA is doing this guys! Creating a smokescreen for SC. If SC is OK, then EA is justified.

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Space Captain Zor

I honestly dunno how the F you’re putting those words in my mouth when I literally cited what EA does as bad behavior. You’re really REALLY misunderstanding my intention in the comment.

Estranged
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Estranged

I understand completely.

EA is greedy meanies. SC is greedy, but the good kind. Cause, science!

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Space Captain Zor

Just keep twisting my words to your liking, I guess. Just ignore the caveat I made in my own original reply to the OP.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

The outbreaks of Puritan morality among gamers still keeps surprising me, because these schemes exist only because significant part of the audience – gamers – are willing to pay for them.

This is how games get to be funded nowadays. We may not like what we see, but as long as there is a demand for this among gamers, publishers and developers will do it.

It’s not big bad companies ravishing the innocent gamers – its a significant part of the gamers trying to get advantage through real money. We may call them Whales, but they are among us and as long as they flash their credit cards, we will have these schemes.

If you want to change things, start thinking how to change the Whales’ behaviour.

Estranged
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Estranged

Puritan morality? Common decency is considered Puritan today?

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Raimo Kangasniemi

‘Common decency’ could do with some ‘common sense’ in this case – like understanding that companies funding and selling products can’t and won’t try to exist in some ideal moral sphere.

Estranged
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Estranged

I don’t think this situation requires ideal morality.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Yet many seem to demand it.

xpsync
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xpsync

As infinite as the universe itself it seems.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

..

citizen21.jpg
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A Dad Supreme

The “unreal estate” was an excellent, well-timed choice considering it’s pixels pretending to be ‘real’ purchased with real money to earn ‘unreal money’, all while the backdrop is the “real” Earth represented by “unreal” pixels.

So deep on so many levels, Schlag.

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Space Captain Zor

Aw you shoulda used a pic of Yela or Daymar lol

xpsync
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xpsync

And here i thought Lock boxes were all the “rage” < pun intended

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Ahelms Tub

Does the game even exist? This is ridiculous.

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Danny Smith

So did their ship whales reach bankruptcy point or just ran out of ships to buy? :p

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they’ve raised at least 3-4 million in the past some odd days since this anniversary sale/3.0 ptu started.

that being said based on my time in ptu i’m convinced they rushed it to entice people to spend.

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Space Captain Zor

It was going to generate income no matter when it hit PTU, most likely. I think they rushed it to put out fires AND get these systems into a larger QA pool (which seems to be helping them a lot, from what I can tell) which is precisely the point of letting backers play limited builds and focusing on specific elements.

You can see it as either questionably convenient that it went to PTU alongside the anniversary sales or a nice little win that they decided to ahead with it for the start of the holiday season and just deal with the extra bugs above and beyond where they wanted it to be.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

playing this week it’s pretty obviously been rushed to evocati and ptu. when the sales started it was like “yep that explains it”

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Space Captain Zor

I have to say I’m amused that you’re making these comments about it being “rushed” while previously making complaints of it not being on your desktop yet. To say it’s “rushed” implies it’s not ready and they shouldn’t do it, right? I think you are showing some double standards now, eh?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

because i gave the benefit of the doubt to CIG/CR that they were being at least somewhat honest that it really was just around the corner for the past year and change.

turns out they were bullshitting us hard about it’s state the past year while they dangled it at us concept sale after concept sale.

seems this company has a real honesty problem for people who have a meme about being “open development”, even tho that’s been demonstratably false statement for a long ass time now.

so yeah my fault, i gave CIG the benefit of the doubt that they were being partially honest. it’s my fault for being stupid enough to believe it really was just around the corner and they were holding back for polish reasons.

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Space Captain Zor

I wasn’t talking about any of that at all. I’m only talking about you want it right now and then when you get it, you call it rushed lol. I mean, that’s why CIG doesn’t release shit at the pace it’s demanded.

If you want to talk about their honesty that’s a really pointless debate. There’s too much opinion around it and nothing else to point at unless Russians go in and hack their email and release it all for us to peruse. For now you either believe their intentions are honest despite poor execution or you don’t. The question is can you forgive poor execution in the face of honest intentions? Does your forgiveness run dry until they drop a patch and start the cycle over again? Does that even make any logical sense if so? A wishy-washy group of consumers we are.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

Hey they said it was weeks away last year. So they mislead us as to the state making me believe they were holding it back for polish. Everything theyve communicated in the past year has been to that angle.

Fwiw because it is on ptu now and on my desktop i dropped another $300 on the game to round out my options when i play.

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Space Captain Zor

I am absolutely not debating that what they say vs what has happened doesn’t look like they’re bullshitting. However I still reserve the right to have the opinion that it’s still been a symptom of bad project management and communication rather than dishonest intent, while some of it is likely due to surprise bugs and other issues.

And, lol. Well, hey. I’m glad you approve of what they’re doing enough to continue supporting it that way. Personally I haven’t given them anything else since getting a Carrack when it first went on offer.

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Melissa McDonald

In other news, Bitcoin breaks $10K
And I will sit that one out, too.

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Alberto

Yeah I know!, But here’s the deal… Real things and Virtual things have something in common ….they are only worth only what people are willing to pay for them. if someone is willing to pay 1 million dollars for a baseball is that baseball really worth a million Dollars in and of itself? It cost pennies to make, the materials aren’t worth more then a few cents. and the labor cost for just 1 is neg liable. The entire idea of somethings “worth” is kind of a made up thing. Just Like Diamonds.

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shear

This applies to absolutely everything, not just digital goods.

cmdr_cotic
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cmdr_cotic

Okay, I’ve been critical of Star Citizen at times but mostly tried being very optimistic about it but this just cuts it. It’s ridiculous.
The ridiculous funding plans are allegedly “acceptable” because they work to fund the game which otherwise never would been realised. Whilst Lootboxes and other extensive monetization plans by EA and other publishers can be deemed as “predatory” for making vulnerable people pull out dangerous amounts of their own money.

Yet here we are with Star Citizen funded way past what they estimated it was going to cost. We still have concept sales of ships whilst ships of old concept sales (Genesis Starliner anyone?) is way off in the distance. Now we have concept sales for ships that will take advantage of new features that was only just recently revealed (building outposts on plots of land), really big, important features which are likely technical challenges, when 3.0 got delayed by over a year and a half and its scale significantly reduced.

Yet these practices aren’t predatory? Hyping people up constantly for “the dream” (as it’s called so often), making it seem more outlandish and wild whilst cutting down the scope of upcoming updates which still get delayed, and then tapping into it with more and more concept sales for $600 “limited” ships, even when the game is supposed to be fully community funded now? Sure, other players buying the ships shouldn’t have a negative impact on one’s own personal experience… so why complain? Well, why keep selling them? The fact that they can’t even meet their own deadlines by a massive, unreasonable margin yet still have the audacity to sell what essentially stays as concept art for several years doesn’t make them predatory?

If you ask me, it’s pretty fucking dodgy that they’re doing this when it becomes more and more clear that not even CIG have an idea what workload and time the project is estimated to take. It’s the third time (or more if my memory betrays me) that they’ve changed their updates release schedule, and 3.0 only “just” came out now after CR said “weeks, not months” about the bloody thing over a year ago.

Pretty much sums it up.

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Space Captain Zor

re: delays, welcome to iterative game development behind a glass wall?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the delays aren’t due to iterations tho. at least that we can know based on what CIG has told us.

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Space Captain Zor

What do you mean?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

aside from scrapping poorly planned ship assets repeatedly and the SM animations debacle there’s been very little iteration in the development of the game.

at least compared to what iteration generally means in a typical game or software development process.

hell they literally can’t afford to engage intypical iterative development like usually happens in game dev at this point in the ways they’ve locked themselves into a corner in so many aspects of design and implementation, based on their regular practice of foot in mouth disease.

as it is when they talk they often talk publicly about things that are in little to no more than a vague concepting stage like this very land claim and base building system before they rush to monetize it locking themsleves into a corner whre legitimate and wholesome iteration in the normal sense of the word simply cannot happen without fucking with their whales in some very big ways.

i think the closest thing to normal iteration in this project has been the cutlass and even then it’s not an example of well done iteration as they literally completely changed teh purpose and role of the ship long multiple times in trolly ways long after taking loads of cash for it. and one of the few examples where they scrapped a game mechanic they’d set “in stone” from an early stage that was more than vague design blog or off the cuff maybe that sounds cool from CR over the years.

and that has caused a large amount oif upset with cutlass owners over the past some odd years for an $110 ship.

imagine if they completely change the role and function of the pioneer and land claims from what is currently being advertised (as contradictory as their comms on the recent concept sales ships have been to an extreme degree as is) to the degree they changed the cutlass?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay :”in this project has been the cutlass ”

They did change it. The first when I compare first iteration and new own is “what a nice move and ship”. Same for Aurora. They are now much nicer than before.

Now about ship role. How much a Cutlass Ite1 can do significantly better or worst than Cutlass Ite2? In real game I mean, not stat of a page. Is the second iteration void all pitched role of first iteration or he is close to negligeable?

The exemple of Pioneer is probably better. it is planned to be a mobile construction ship. Those who pledged for it would be entitled to complain if it becomes a swimming pool mobile construction ship or a giant mobile tank fish but as long it keep his essential purpose….

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Space Captain Zor

Eh, I boil all of that down to one form of iteration or another. You iterate on assets and mechanics the same way you iterate on ideas and concepts. In the end you’re making changes until you get it right and all of that can amount to delays. Your problem with it is how they wasted time, which is valid, but it’s still a process of iteration.

I think words like “general” or “typical” are hard to apply to the notion of software iteration unless you apply it in the general terms of “we did this wrong a thousand times until we got it right.” No two projects are ever exactly alike so I really feel it’s a fruitless task to compare development of one game to another the in pursuit to show that one studio did it better than another. Communication and PR notwithstanding. A huge impact on iteration is how good or bad the tools developers have at their disposal and we know that their devops team has taken years to get good tools setup for this crew and they’re still working to make them better. That’s a big variable as to how you might compare the efficiency of development from one company to another. Despite good tools and talent, bad design decisions will still get made and have to be iterated on, however.

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Jack Pipsam

This ‘game’ is an absolute piss-take.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Another’s ‘absolute piss-take’ is another’s financial juggernaut.

Estranged
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Estranged

Whom is benefiting financially?

Bernie Madoff had one of those, as well.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Chris Roberts and his company of course – and Madoff ran a classic pyramid scheme.

Madoff was paying his old investors with money from new ones, not from profits from investments – which was unsustainable when the money coming in dried up.

Roberts is just selling digital items to fund his business project. It might look unsavoury at times, but it has nothing to do with a Ponzi scheme.

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TheDonDude

Whether a game is P2W isn’t always black and white, as it sorta depends on the ratio between Time vs Real Cash. But man oh man, Star Citizen is looking awful dark grey of late.

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Armsbend

It isn’t even P2W that’s the issue – it is just a small group of people taking money away from consumers through a fundraising scam. The game is of no consequence. Their “dream”. What a joke.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Star Citizen is very much of consequence. Like it or not, but its probably the only real coming MMO that gathers significant publicity outside gaming media.

It’s also not a scam. It might be taking advantage of the gullible now and then, but taking advantage of the gullible is what every business does, selling dreams and pixels of land that might have no real value – although as ‘real’ and ‘digital’ economies merge more and more, eventually owning pixels in a virtual world are likely to be no different than owning material goods and property in the real world.

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Joe Blobers

Precisely and I would add also this. Beside the usual complain and somehow legit question about where we are in this project and what we can expect in say 12 months, part of the answer is 3.0 being iron out by thousands Backers in PTU.

To me this anniversary sale just demonstrate the variety of gameplay that SC will provide with many options to enjoy a massive universe. Not massive by the number of planets as they can create millions of planets with PG (ED do have +400 billions systems not even counting planets) but massive in many different gameplay on a limited numbers of semi handcrafted systems (5 to 10 by Beta and 100 on a longer run).

And of course we are served with the LandClaimGate, right after the LoanGate :)

What is the difference between buying a ship with real cash to fund a project without Publishers claws versus a piece of 4Km land pledge? CIG explained that all backers (estimated to +600.000) having each a Claim Land Licence will cover only half of a planet surface.

Knowing each system can have up to 10 planet/moons + asteroids fields, 100 systems are enough to get 600K x 1000 = 600 millions of players…. :)

I think we are safe to say nobody will walk on each others feet and that more gameplay like land+surface mining+farming bring more diversity and life to a game than billions of empty planets. (not complainging about ED as I am also an early ED backer and enjoy diversity)

At the end, Land or ships= pledges. So each one looking to support this project without spending hundreds can pledge for something that will fit their gameplay style (land+mining/farming) rather than pure pew-pew. A bit for everyone.

And as usual, nobody is forced to pledge more than a basic 45$ package…

xpsync
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xpsync

Thank you Armsbend.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

keep in mind to do anything with these land claim things you have to have someone with the consolidated outland pioneer base building ship which sold for $750 fresh cash in limited numbers recently.

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Joe Blobers

Correct. 750$… or 0$. Nobody said so far only players will be able to provide base building.

And even if there is no NPC’s on this very specific activity… you pay players with ingame credits not cash. Like you will pay NPC’s or players to carry goods, purchase raw material, repair and ships with ingame credits.

Economy must be alive and only spending ingame credits will keep inflation under control.

Estranged
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Estranged

So, the $750 base builder is definitely a PTW ship.

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Wilhelm Arcturus

I won’t be happy until people can buy pixel buildings on their pretend land claims in which to store their JPEG ship collections.

Of note, if you Google “buy land on the moon” you’ll find that an acre there is only $30. The moon is a real place and your claim to the land is about as valid as what SC is selling you.

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Joe Blobers

… you can buy (illegaly) a piece of Moon land but will never be able to touch it… while in SC, thousands of backers are already testing the feature… with help of few pixels but still this is better than a virtual physical piece of land.. :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

this feature is not in testing. it’s not even entered basic design phase yet.

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Joe Blobers

True. You can’t yet plant a beacon because there are not in game. To be precise, we can now fly and land on a moon and will be able to use a beacon when available, while nobody ‘except maybeNasa astronaut, won’t ever be able to go to a moon and plant a beacon.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

No. Nobody can legally own land on the Moon. It’s banned in international treaties about outer space. Selling land on the moon is a fraud, a clear crime – like selling land owned by someone else on Earth.

The digital ‘land’ being sold in SC is very much the company’s to sell and there is no law against it. It might not be morally uplifting, but it clearly isn’t illegal like selling land on the Moon.

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Wilhelm Arcturus

And yet if you Google as I suggested you will see that a company has been selling such deeds since 1980. I am sure there is a caveat in there that such sales are for entertainment purposes to cover themselves. Likewise, I am sure the EULA for SC says that you don’t actually own any of the virtual goods you have purchased. Claiming there is a radical difference seems to be a matter of splitting hairs… and price.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

There are legal precedents that you do own the virtual goods (or at least a ‘license’ to use them as long as you wish etc) you have bought with real money – with all the caveats that come with the lawyer-written small print.

Different countries’ legal systems take different approaches, of course, but I would expect we will see much legal activity in this front in the coming years – one that has been brought up regularly in recent years is the question who owns your virtual goods when you die?

I would be very surprised if we wouldn’t move towards equating virtual goods with ‘real goods’ – which could mean, theoretically, for example a court stopping a publisher from closing down servers of an online game for which it has sold virtual goods without making sure the small print is water-tight.

Eliot Lefebvre
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Eliot Lefebvre

I would think you’d buy the portrait of the house on the land which has the unplayable ship pictures in it. You can hang the portrait in your ship once that system rolls out in 2019.

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Wilhelm Arcturus

Why isn’t a simulated picture of your JPEG ship in the virtual hangar on your pretend piece of land not an option RIGHT NOW? Throw your avatar and the avatar of your desired mate/life partner out front and this would literally be worth another few million in sales!

Eliot Lefebvre
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Eliot Lefebvre

Can we really call them pixel land claims when there are no actual pixels to claim yet? Isn’t this selling… the idea of pixel land claims?

For fifty bucks.

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shear

Double virtual?

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Jonny Sage

Not much different from preordering any game really. Its all just ideas until youre playing it. Although you actually can fly most of the pixel ships your bought, RIGHT NOW.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

oh there is planets now that presumably at some point years from now when this feature hits closed testing we’ll be told “told you so heaters!” and it’ll take some weeks before whales like me get to see how cut down it is and buggy on ptu

er i mean moons but still.

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Melissa McDonald

“I’m not selling them the paint,” yelled Taine. “Can’t you understand that?
They don’t want the paint. They want the idea of paint, the principle of paint.
It’s something that they never thought of and they’re interested. “

-“The Big Front Yard” by Clifford D. Simak

Dantos
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Dantos

Or get a bigger idea for $100!

Eliot Lefebvre
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Eliot Lefebvre

Fund game development by purchasing the idea of a pretend thing that we haven’t yet put into the game at all.

Star Citizen is a wild ride.

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Jonny Sage

Again, they have delivered a playable alpha where you can fly the pretend things you bought. They are in the game. There is no reason to doubt that they will deliver the other assets they sold given this history.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

preordering microtransactions that affect gameplay is not only totally not pay2win (because i mean, equal footing with those that will have to grind the currency to buy these things!) but it’s a ok because it funds the game!

because spending money on games doesn’t normally fund them getting made apparently. XD

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Jonny Sage

It doesnt. Normally they make the game then you buy it. If they dont think youll buy it they dont make it. Which is why something like SC would never get made. Instead you would just get Call of Duty 14

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

TIL having paid for advancement in an mmo’s progression ahead of launch over others that have not paid for that advancement is “equal footing”:

double plus good!

also the 1.9 million number is just number of accounts on rsi.com. the one and only time they disclosed number of paid accounts (accounts with anything on them at all $5 skins and up) was late last year and that was 500k total paid supporters.

also worth noting is you can’t buy these land claim things with store credits. fresh cash only!

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Armsbend

If the balloon on this scam bursts I think a next move will be holding the donors hostage by telling them they can’t get it made without a huge infusion of cash. Then the game just dies on release. What a turd.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i don’t think this is a scam, it’s just severely mismanaged on multiple fronts in multiple ways and they are increasingly desperate for cash.

after about a week with 3.0 ptu i am convinced they rushed this chopped up version to ptu and nda drop purely to race ahead ofthe anniversary sale and bring in big bucks there.

which seems to have worked as i’ve been eyeballing my irc chan funding meter bot and i think guessing here that they’v gotten at least 3-4million + since the anniversary sales event started on the strength of everyone posting videos and streams of landing on planets this past week. XD

which i have yet to find any actual pve yet but gonna try some more this week

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Armsbend

I used to use the word scam as a placeholder of sorts. Now I’m convinced this was a scam from the beginning.

Sometimes I wonder why you, someone I hold in high esteem here, is involved with such nonsense – but then I remember you are really the only guy I knows who plays the game and gives a balanced, legit opinion on it with videos and such.

So keep on keepin’ on friend.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i genuinely find what has been there fun (well, AC stuff sucks after 10 minutes but the PU stuff they’ve done is alot of fun so far). tho i don’t recomend it to the casual interested person as despite what the fanboy salesmen claim there’s just not much going on with it. it really is just a tech demo of sorts.

but actually playing it gives insight into the really meaty part of my money well spent feels about it – bringing the reality of it to those outside the fandom when it comes up on this site and on gaming discussion venues i frequent. tho i could do without the completely disconnected from reality fanboys attacking me and anyone else who says the slightest percieved to be negative thing about it. which i’m sure the usual suspects will show up in no time flat to ramble incoherently their alternative facts at us for the next few days XD

anyways it’s a head ache dealing with the fanboys and CIG’s bullshit but i do have legit fun playing the game and making videos and sharing insights about it. and in a kind of maschistic way it’s interesting to see people convince themselves of the various strange things they convince themselves about the project in various ways from how game development works or the never done before memeing that goes on as if these people woke up one day crawled out from under their rock after ignoring so many many games of the past some odd years and th edevs who love to talk about how they are made.

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Joe Blobers

Glad you have fun with a PTU version which is the shadow of what it will be in a couple of months.
I see 2018 as a a pivotal year after 3.0 bringing all fundamental (PG planet, basic IA, Netcode improvment, many stations, missions…) to expand furthermore with jobs…. and female model!

In the next coming 12 months, we can expect a good part of jobs added (transport, mining, salvaging) may be more like repair, exploration, some being released in their “basic” form. By next Citizencon we will have a much better vision from where we are from something that could be named beta.
In the meantime, SQ42 information will be welcome next month.

Last but not least, I agree with you.. fanboys sucks! :)

Estranged
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Estranged

Joe, I’ll add 12 months to your 12 months and maybe this will happen. Will also add a couple to your couple.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

yeah you do suck XD

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peor togs

So embarrassing! I will likely never play this game based on how badly they are premonetizing a game that still has yet to be released!

Just passed Shroud of the Avatar and shot your rep worse than Garriot, Mr Roberts!

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Last of the Jedi hasn’t been released yet, but Disney and other companies which have bought right to use it in their marketing are already making money out of it.

Making money out of things that you can’t play or watch yet is very much normal in the entertainment industry.

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Armsbend

He hasn’t sold any blood yet or capitalized his mother’s death. YET.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

if you ever happen to be aware of one of their fundraising streams being on when you’re having a drink at the pc, tune in. the one i watched was hilarious. with cosplaying gariot just quietly drinking while they announced ever newer hairbrained incentives for their devoted whales to give them free money. LOL

wpDiscuz