Michele Morrow calls out BlizzCon gender pay inequality

Michele Morrow, one of the most recognizable faces in gaming thanks to her long career as a show host and actress and World of Warcraft player, has seemingly accused BlizzCon organizers of gender discrimination when it comes to BlizzCon hosting pay. Morrow has hosted Blizzard’s outrageously popular annual convention since 2014, last year with Geoff Keighley Alex Albrecht and Malik Forte. As she began on Twitter,

“Glad the #GoldenGlobes are calling out discrimination. I’d like to point out gender & POC pay disparity happens in gaming, too. This has happened to me. Has it happened to you?”

She followed up her statements by referring to her treatment by BlizzCon organizers specifically, suggesting that she didn’t know ahead of BlizzCon 2017 that she had been paid less than her male co-hosts.

“Hopefully someone will care & finally respond to my email regarding the situation to remedy it,” she writes. “This has nothing to do with any of my colleagues and 100% to do with those who hire.”

We reached out to Blizzard for comment earlier this morning and will update when we hear back.

Source: Twitter
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227 Comments on "Michele Morrow calls out BlizzCon gender pay inequality"

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Pedge Jameson

I usually stay on the fence with the crusades back and forth.
But she did work for Blizzard, probably more than some silicon valley bro-dude photoshopping gnome ta-tas.
Pay her. End of story.

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CasualSlacks

Lot of comments here for so little available information.

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mysecretid

I believe in equal pay for equal work, no matter who you are.

That said, I find the details given on this particular case a little unclear (so far), in terms of who was hired in what capacity, and who actually did what in terms of work expected — so, my initial opinion above is the only one I’m prepared to offer at this time.

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Alex Malone

Not enough information to make any sort of judgement call on this one.

What was her pay versus that of her male counterparts?
Was she contracted for the exact same work as her male counterparts?
What is her job performance like compared to her counterparts?

Gender discrimination sucks, we all know it’s wrong, but to throw something like this out there without adequate information to back it up is just asking for trouble.

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van_glorious

See post, 13 comments. Come back one day later, 217. Sweet cheese and rice

Celestia
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Celestia

Could really use a block function in the new comment software.

veldara
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veldara

comment image

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Utakata

I never find conversations on sexism entertaining though. I am told it’s best served with a large tumbler of the hard stuff after it’s done instead. :(

Duey Bear
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Duey Bear

I have never heard of this woman. Apparently, she was in a few episodes of Alias. I’m sure she is talented, but I would have to compare her resume to her co-hosts to see whether the pay was difference was justified, because yes reputation and fame factors into someone’s value, someone like Madonna would absolutely be paid more than any B-list celeb (and most A-list for that matter regardless of their genitals.)

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Apparently you live under a rock. Because you don’t personally know about someones accomplishments must mean they don’t have many.

As Grimmtooth said, you could have taken two seconds to look up her name on IMDB before embarassing yourself.

There was a reason she was hired, and it wasn’t because she did a few episodes of Alias in 2006. You *really* should have known better, as much as it doesn’t surprise me that people choose ignorance over two seconds worth of “work”.

Here I’ll make it easier for you:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1310789/

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Grimmtooth

Would it have killed you to look up her IMDB entry before commenting?

Duey Bear
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Duey Bear

If she was being discriminated there are government agencies available to take testimonies and investigate and I would urge her to do that. Wage discrimination does happen, but according to Department of Labor studies incidents are rare and it does not affect the wage gap more than a couple percentage points and other variables such as college major, overtime worked, maternity leave, chosen field of work etc (personal choices) are the primary drivers of the 23 cent difference.
To demonstrate the work choice does come in effect, 90% of work force fatalities are male and men work 14% longer hours. This is not evidence of gender discrimination against men, rather men tend of chose more dangerous (and often high paying) jobs and work extra hours and shifts more often.

antheriel
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antheriel

Bree, I am truly sorry for the amount of bullshit you have to put up with in the comments every time you post anything about sexism or social issues in gaming. You’re doing a good job and I appreciate it.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

On the Internet you get many crazy angry ignorant enraged male responses whenever you speak of gender inequality in any medium. Of course there are a lot that understand and agree, but those that don’t often take things too far the other way. They don’t have valid debate points and so they just spew anger and hostility.

For many years I used to fight and debate for gender equality in online games and games meant for “everybody”. It’s one of the reasons I ended up lowering my real life online profile in time and became more anonymous (not the only reason but one of the reasons I first did). People get incredibly angry over the subject.

It gets way too serious from people who don’t think things should be any different than they are. People turn to death threats and say horrible terrible things about you because you’re fighting for an equality change.

I’m not going to go down and read all the comments here because I can’t deal with the few I’ve already read. It makes me want to get into the debate and reply but it’s draining. I’ll support those fighting and do a bit of resistence still but I’m quite worn out from the hostility and ignorance after years of it.

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Sushi Maru

Differing opinions is something everyone should be able to handle like adults. I’m very certain anyone who posted this type of article is expecting differing opinions.

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Utakata

…not sure where you getting this though. But if opinions are ignorant and childish, then the proper thing to do as adults is to send them to the corner? o.O

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Yes, different opinions are fine, insults, ingorance and in your face prejudice and sexism during thos opinions not so much. There are ways to discuss things without them devolving into angry children hurling poo at each other. There’s no reason to feel that opinions given in such a manner should be accepted or given any recognition.

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Utakata

Yep, everyone is entitled to their opinions…does not mean we have to accept every opinion as valid. Being the adult is know that difference. :)

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Joshua Wells

You know why there is no such thing as a pay gap? Because if there was, women would be hired to do everything.

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Dobablo

Or there is such a thing as a gender pay gap because reasons prevent women from getting the higher paid jobs.

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Paragon Lost

Seems to be far too common and it is unacceptable. Just read this article about an BBC editor who quit in protest over the very unfair wages that were being paid to her in comparison to her male counterparts.

http://time.com/5092360/bbc-china-editor-quits-over-equal-pay-gap/

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NeoWolf

The fact that pay discrimination based on gender even still exists in this day and age is just another very sad fact and shows just how embedded the old boy network is in the business world.

People need to be paid based on capability not genitalia whatever their gender, which is also no doubt why the so called old boy network is so terrified of it as they know most of them would end up minimum wage lol

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Bruno Brito

uhh…what?

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NeoWolf

too many big words? lol

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Melissa McDonald

OK so, that was completely sexist. Boo. My father is a damn genius. a GREAT man.

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NeoWolf

Well considering it would ONLY apply to your father if he had discriminated pay to someone based on thier gender then no it isn’t sexist at all. So does it? :)

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Melissa McDonald

Your insinuation that people in power aren’t qualified for more than a minimum wage job is just… wrong. Hopefully you don’t even believe your own words.

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NeoWolf

Did you even read what I wrote before you hip shot your wounded deer response? As that was not the insinuation I made.

What I said was that the old boy network of people who frequently and consistently fail to pay females the same rates of pay as males for the SAME job, if put in a position where they were paid based on capabilitiy would probably come out worse off, hence why they feel the need to falsely pay themselves considerably more in comparison.
It wasn’t generic about ALL people in power it was specific about those who have consistently failed to pay women the same as men for the same job for no other reason than their gender.

And if you associated your father with that group (and I assume you do as YOU brought him into this)..thats unfortunate…for you.

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Sushi Maru

Wage discrimination has been illegal in this country for over 50 years. If you are getting paid less, we have laws to protect you. This is why looking at the numbers, there is no credible wage discrimination shown…because it would be illegal. It has been this way for a very long time.

If this person seriously got paid less for an equal job due to a sex/religion/race bias, they would have legal ground to stand on. I’m going to guess that instead of pursuing legal action though, they are going to post unproven claims on social media instead in a grab for attention.

Plus, I’m assuming with these types of gigs, you are booked for a certain agreed to price. There is no equal job/equal pay in these situations…since it isn’t a salary/titled job.

styopa
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styopa

Bingo.

“I’m a shitty negotiator or I’m more replaceable than I think, ergo, I believe that I should get paid more,”

The whole cognitive dissonance behind the alleged wage gap is breathtaking.
First, the assertion is that there is this giant anti-woman cabal explicitly or implicitly colluding to deny women fair wages.
AT THE SAME TIME, the people saying that are asserting that same cabal is SO STUPID that they somehow don’t notice that they could fill their ranks with just-as-capable-individuals who (depending on who you listen to) are willing to work for 60-85% of the pay of their other (male) workers?

Really? Anyone else see that paradox?

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Alexander Smith

We lack way to much information to jump down blizzards throat for this. I mean hell we don’t even know how large of pay difference there is. There could be a $100 difference for all we know.

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Dobablo

What is that Morrow has had difficulty getting feedback from Blizzard and the difference is enough for her to risk future employment and a relatively secure recurring appointment.

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zeko_rena

She looks like she is truly struggling to keep off the streets.

It is scary, if this sort of stuff was real (not saying this one is not but most are BS) I would be out of the job because our CEO is one of the most penny tight pincher ever and if she could get away with paying woman less we would all be out of the job and replaced with woman at the click of a finger.

I wonder what the actual reason she got paid less was, perhaps less hours then the others.

Actually now that we have started, I know our CEO gets about $1.2 million AU a year pay, I want $1.2 million AU a year, this is gender pay inequality just because I am MALE

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Michael

Wow, sexist much? There are tons of articles and research documents out there that prove that this sort of stuff is real and that most of it is NOT BS.

2 second google search :

http://www.businessinsider.com/gender-wage-pay-gap-charts-2017-3

Also, there is a thing in the workplace called equality. This applies to staff as well, so they can’t just fire the whole staff at your company and replace them with women because they have to have a balance of men and women in most workplaces (Anywhere you apply that says they are an equal opportunity employer, so most of them in the states)

Estranged
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Estranged

Michael, look at some of my links below…

This is sensationalist data:

Only accurate if the same amount of men and women work. If they worked the same jobs in equal numbers.

The fact is equally educated and qualified people make about the same amount in America. These differences are razor thin, around 2 percent.

All this study shows is women OVERALL make less than men. This is due to women generally being in lower paid fields, like teaching. A woman is less likely to have a highly paid professional job, often by choice.

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Michael

It always makes sense to attempt to debunk a legitimate argument by throwing out stuff like SENSATIONALIST PROPAGANDA!!!

So these “facts” that the difference is around 2%, where they at?

Estranged
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Estranged

Michael, the info has been posted. If it doesn’t fit your agenda, sorry.

I explained why I disagree with your stance.

Have decided that some don’t want equality, it threatens their world view.

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Jeremy Barnes

I haven’t really decided where I come down on this argument, but saying something very specific like 2% then when asked for the source saying “The information is out there…somewhere..” generally makes people believe you are full of it.

Estranged
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Estranged

This is what I have been looking for today. Pretty much sums it up.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2073804

It has improved today to around 2-3 cents.

Long read.

Other links have been provided today, but I realise it is a lot to read.

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zeko_rena

Thank you Estranged, someone with some knowledge thank goodness.

Another reason woman also often overall make less than men is due to them deciding to have children and the woman often stop working entirely or cut back work hours hugely.

(which is a wonderful thing before someone starts hating on me for saying that)

Which skews most of these “results”

Estranged
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Estranged

zeko, right. My Mom took 5 years off of work when I was born. Therefore, she is 5 years behind in experience and earnings.

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Armsbend

“She looks like she is truly struggling to keep off the streets.”

So because someone is doing better than you are, or a poor person, is – they should shut their fucking mouth and be happy they are getting paid anything at all. Got it.

“Actually now that we have started, I know our CEO gets about $1.2 million AU a year pay, I want $1.2 million AU a year, this is gender pay inequality just because I am MALE”

I don’t know what you do – but I know the CEO does more, and more important work than whatever it is you do for your company. It isn’t equal work.

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zeko_rena

Call me old school, but I am more interested in hearing from and helping people and families that are struggling to make ends meet on a daily basis then people who are living comfortably.

I also don’t know the details fully in this case, but perhaps the other people who are getting paid more were doing extra work, since you know paying a woman less is ILLEGAL and Blizzard is not that stupid.. well maybe I am giving them too much credit.

Exactly it isn’t equal work, I likely work harder as I am on the front lines working on hardware, where as a CEO is usually in meetings eating and drinking delightful food.

Although mostly what our CEO is doing is making bad decisions and causing people to get made redundant because of said bad decisions but I digress.

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Stropp

CEOs are generally brought in by the board to achieve a certain goal. That might be a certain rate of growth, or to make mergers or acquisitions, or even to layoff a certain number of staff. Accordingly, they get paid to make the decisions to achieve those goals.

You might think he’s making bad decisions by laying people off, but it might just be that he’s saving the company and all the other jobs by doing so.

While those at the coal face do work hard, they don’t have the responsibility for the success or failure of the business. That’s the CEOs job.

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zeko_rena

Good valid points.

But I could go into details of some of the terrible decisions that have been made that outright led to cuts being made on staff, but I wont bore people with that kind of crap.

Must… resist… urge… to… vent… her… terrible… descions…
Haha.

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Dobablo

I see lots of people saying she should negotiate better but what impact does being skilled at negotiating have on one’s ability to present (or do 99% of other jobs).

Market place only work when there is a high degree of information available. Unless you know what your peers are earning it is very hard to judge what your labor is worth to an employer. This is especially problematic in the gig economy where jobs are one-off so past knowledge is less helpful. That fits doubly in the entertainment industry where telling your colleagues what you earn could potentially cost you future jobs since your colleagues are also potential rivals who could undercut you for work.
If I was to guess what happened, I’d say Morrow probably assumed a rate in-line with prior events while her co-presenters pushed for a raise because they visibility and importance of their work to Blizzard had risen.

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Jack Pipsam

It’s disgusting that this kind of thing keeps happening over and over. Blizzard should absolutely be held to account for this, it’s their own branded convention so this kind of action is entirely on them and their values, hopefully in future they don’t screw up like this again.
Good on Marrow for taking a stand.

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Stropp

Agree Blizzard should be held to account, but it’s very likely they engaged a production company for the event and didn’t directly handle pay issues. It may be that the production people charge a ‘fixed’ fee for talent and then handle talent payments in order to maximise profit on the event.

However, Blizzard should be pushing these issues with the production company though.

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Karl Hungus

Blizz talks about diversity in both the games themselves and the gaming industry as a whole but then they pay this woman less?

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Utakata

It’s obvious that they need to be pushed on that issue…to you know, walk the walk as oppose to just talking about it. Instead of throwing out diversity with the bath water, which I sure many internet populist types really want the way they go on about it…

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Bruno Brito

YOU’RE BACK <3

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Karl Hungus

I was, but now I’m gone again.. and this time, for good.

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Utakata

….

For me it’s about adjusting the way I approach the argument so I don’t get moderated. Instead of hightailing it out every time a mod takes a dim view on your approach. This is what we call being a sore loser…but don’t let that hit your ass on the way out. Just saying.

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Utakata

PS: I suppose I am being rude for being so harsh. But when a regular posts after a long period of silence, only to “look at me” crash a gut wrenching subject, stir up shit on it, then leaves in a hissy fit when it all gets rightfully and reasonably moderated, I begin to quickly lose all respect for the individual. This is not how it’s done. And the person just looks like an ass with a hat after all said and done.

…I do wish Mr. Karl best of luck in whatever he is doing. As I am sad to see him go. I am just not sorry to see him go. /sigh

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Bruno Brito

>:C

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Sorenthaz

Welco-Rip.

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Boom

Surely by now we have emerged far enough from our primordial ooze, but nope read the news & there are still folk clubbing others on the head.
Its just absolutely ridiculous, how hard is equal job = equal pay ffs

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Karl Hungus

Our species has been around for about 150,000 years, but we’ve only been “civilized” for about 10,000 years. We have not even begun to emerge far enough from our primordial ooze, as you put it.

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Melissa McDonald

Maybe Natalie should be complaining to her agent. Just my 2 cents. Management typically do the negotiating.

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starbuck1771

Exactly people love to blame the employer but it is their Agent/Manager that has done a crappy job of negotiating their pay. Another determining factor is the amount of work put in, and the current star power of the person in question.

Would I pay someone who was in Ninja Sex Party: 6969 the same as someone like Wil Wheaton or Felicia Day? Hell No! And Yes she was in that you can look it up on her IMDB page. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1310789/ After looking at the page you don’t really see much that stands out saying she should be paid the same as a celebrity.

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Dystopiq

“Shes not x so she doesn’t deserve it”

Well done. You’re doing exactly what people are accusing the industry of doing. How dare people ask to get paid fairly.

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starbuck1771

That is not what the point is. She did get paid fairly. It is not Blizzards fault if she or her representative did a shitty job of negotiating how much she got paid. The problem is you guys think there is static pay involved when actually the amount paid is negotiated before hand.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Well by your logic she should have made more than at least one of her two male counterparts, since she HAS actually been in movies, unlike them.

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starbuck1771

Well maybe she should work on her ability to negotiate her contracts. That’s where her argument fails. There is no static pay. You get paid the agreed amount that was negotiated.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

You’re making an assumption that there was any negotiated salary, rather than a flat offer, which isn’t a guarantee for hosts or shoutcasters.

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Melissa McDonald

There is union scale, but your point is valid.

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Zora

That’s actually just been pointed out to me, isn’t compensation for such kind of jobs negotiated rather than established on a pay-per-hour basis?

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Dobablo

I didn’t realise ability to negotiate had an impact on how good a presenter was. Companies hiring talent should pay based on their ability to perform, not on how well they hardball on a contract.

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Robert Mann

True, but that’s not how this world works, sad to say. Similarly hiring should be about ability and the person… but all this other crud gets in the way. Or how lawsuits tend to swing toward the $$$ that a person has, regardless of actual justice.

It’s not ideal, of course, but realism and idealism rarely match up.

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Dobablo

Just because the world works one way doesn’t mean we have to accept that change is impossible.
In general, companies have an interest to save money so they’ll try to negotiate individual wages to get everyone as cheaply as possible but they need to balance the short term need for value against the long term cost of bad-at-negotiating-but-great-at-job talent being underpaid and leaving the industry for a better paying job elsewhere.
There are many fixes that can help, from publicising pay scales to collective bargaining and contracted equal pay clauses.

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Armsman

Not defending anyone one way or the other; BUT in the Entertainment field; your Agent (and his/her negotiation skills/strategy) can GREATLY affect your compensation one way or the other. There are PLENTY of bad agents out there.

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Darthbawl

I feel bad for myself, I had to look her up on Wikipedia, the name did not ring a bell. As soon as I saw her pic I recognized her from some recent Youtube videos with Jesse Cox. Other than that, not familiar with her at all.

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Knox Harrington

If the work is veritably equal, the pay should be equal. It’s so logical that it should not be that politicized of an issue.

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Robert Mann

Aye, and this is… well, a problem with all non hourly positions it seems. Which means, rather sadly, it tends toward the top half of the wage scale where it is an issue. Who knew high society was so corrupt?!? (Okay, I’ll try not to be so sarcastic tomorrow.)

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Karl Hungus

I approve of your name/avatar, sir.

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connor_jones

I loved the Coen Bros’ Fargo, but absolutely hated Big Lebowski. ;)

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Arktouros

Oh hey Karl’s bac….annnnnnnnnnd there’s all the pictures again :|

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Karl Hungus

.

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Estranged
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Estranged

Karl, what the hell! wb

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Karl Hungus

I never really left. I just stopped posting because snowflakes were getting triggered and kept deleting my posts even though I was adhering to the rules. There’s this epidemic going around where people only want to expose themselves to view points they already agree with. It makes a forum feel more like a circle jerk than a place for constructive conversations. But it’s all good. I’m just going to stick with my memes and image macros.

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Alex Willis

That didn’t take long.

KARL HUNGUS, EVERYBODY

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

Snowflakes are awesome.
Unique and ephemeral.
Just like human beings.

cryptshadow
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cryptshadow
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Bruno Brito

Hah! Social justice haikus <3

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Alex Willis

Hey, it’s Karl! Hi Karl! #memediversity

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Karl Hungus

.

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Estranged
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Estranged

Karl, when I worked in HR, it was so comical.

Sometimes, no one was concerned with the actual person any longer.

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Knox Harrington

Okay now it makes sense.. apparently some folks here thought we’re the same person heh

and..

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Utakata

It’s still debatable now that this isn’t just pair of Mr. Hungus’ socks speaking to each other. o.O

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Karl Hungus

If I had a pair of sock puppets, don’t you think one of them would have pink pigtails? :P

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Utakata

The only thing that will do is confuse SoMuchMass…our other infamous but AWOL regular, as he was confusing me for A Dad Supreme a long while back. o.O

…but to be less rude, and regardless whether your Mr. Knox or not as well, welcome back Mr. Karl. It’s been awhile. :)

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Bruno Brito

Ah, i don’t miss SMM.

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Karl Hungus

There is only one Karl Hungus!

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Bruno Brito

We disagree a lot, but you’re still my second favorite meme’er. <3

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Arktouros

If they were all hired for the exact same position that was created with a static pay and she’s claiming she got paid less for that exact same position I think that’s a fair claim to make.

If on the other hand they were hired for the same gig but it wasn’t a position with a static pay amount and you could negotiate your pay on that position it seems like it was kinda on her to get the better payday.

I just don’t know. This is one of those things that when done publicly is hard to really take objectively because it’s probably not the whole story.

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starbuck1771

The problem is like with every other gig it isn’t static pay. Your pay is negotiated. If you or your representation can’t properly negotiate your pay, you are out of luck once you sign the agreement. Just another Youtuber jumping on the bandwagon.

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Dobablo

As you said, gig pay isn’t static. Knowing what you are worth effectivity guess work and how big a risk people are willing to take (even for professional agents). Employers should give more guidance over the narrow price range they are looking to employ.

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starbuck1771

Correct however people are trying to make Blizzard look like a bag of dicks for paying her the agreed upon amount. I am sure if the actual financials were examined they would find some males were paid less. It’s just people always tend to go straight to the it’s because I am this or that argument.

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Crowe

Nicely put and I agree. This sounds like a conversation she should really be handling with her agent.

Estranged
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Estranged

Having an aggressive talent agent is worth every penny.

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imayb1

In similar news, I was a bit surprised by the BBC’s Carrie Gracie’s recent resignation from her position as China Editor. She likes the job, the company, etc. She’s one of the company’s top reporters with plenty of accolades, but her male peers are paid over 50% more. She wasn’t after more money; just equality. To that end, she tried official routes to no avail. The BBC even has an equal pay policy! Still, she said she could not “collude” in unequal pay by continuing in her role. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42601477

I hope women continue to speak out across industries and make changes.

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Paragon Lost

Damn, late to the thread, I just posted this above. lol. Should have known someone would have already covered it. :)

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Armsbend

This story is what really explained the pay gap in clearer terms – to me:

Natalie Portman:
Natalie Portman is weighing in on Hollywood’s gender pay gap, saying that she was once paid three times less than her male co-star.

The “Jackie” star, 35, told Marie Claire UK, that Ashton Kutcher, her co-star on 2011’s “No Strings Attached,” earned a salary three times greater than hers.

“I wasn’t as pissed as I should have been,” the Oscar winner said. “I mean, we get paid a lot, so it’s hard to complain, but the disparity is crazy.”

“Compared to men, in most professions, women make 80 cents to the dollar,” she added. “In Hollywood, we are making 30 cents to the dollar.”

Portman, a bigger star, much more talented and arguably a bigger draw got paid 3 times less than shlub, dope for hire Kutcher.

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Stropp

Hmmm. Just because Kutcher plays the dumbass character really well, doesn’t mean he is one.

What an actor brings to a movie isn’t just talent. There’s market pull too. Look at the difference between Arnold Schwarzenegger and Alan Rickman. Rickman had more acting talent in his little finger than Arnie, but Arnie was able to command huge salaries because of his market pull.

Having said that, I’m undecided whether or not Kutcher is a bigger drawcard than Portman. Maybe for a romcom he is. Even then, 3 times salary is a bit much.

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Melissa McDonald

Side note: the depiction of JFK’s assassination in “Jackie” was horrific. Truly.

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Arktouros

I just don’t know if you can really use a job where you can negotiate your salary as a metric to measure discrimination. Discrimination is more about an intentional discrepancy because you think/feel one group of people is inherently better than another.

It seems to me today we see a clear result (in this case, pay discrepancy between genders) and take one of the possible explanations (usually the worst) for that outcome (discrimination) and accept it as fact without any data or proof to back up that explanation.

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Karl Hungus

.

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Utakata

…if you where a female *ex-military fitness instructor, I assume you want to get paid the same for the same amount of work you put in it.

*Note: This is what I assume you do for a living from all the things you said about yourself over the years here. O.o

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Karl Hungus

I fully support equal pay for equal work. The work has to be objectively equal though.

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Utakata

I presume this case is objectively equal…or it will likely not have a chance in court. Again though, IANAL retentive…

…beginning to hate that ‘nym as well. :(

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Bruno Brito

^ I can agree with that.

I just am well aware that i’ll never find a builder woman in Brazil for x reasons. It’s just cultural now. After years and years of saying that only men can do these jobs, they simply don’t attempt/want to enter that workforce. It’s quite telling, really.

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A Dad Supreme

After years and years of saying that only men can do these jobs, they simply don’t attempt/want to enter that workforce. It’s quite telling, really.

As a retired male law enforcement officer, I can say without a doubt that many women who apply for male dominated jobs are subjected to (and expect to be) treated as if they weren’t there to do a job, but as if they were there looking for a boyfriend/husband.

So many times I’ve seen women get hit on for just doing simple things dudes did on duty daily, and when they didn’t react as expected (“oh gosh, you’re so strong and smart.. we should date”), they were derided for not blowing off a ‘joke’ or come-on.

It’s not that many women don’t want to enter the workforce, it’s that the workforce is still White Male dominated and carry much of the 50’s mentality.

Maybe Brazil is different than America in this regard.. don’t know.

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Bruno Brito

Yeah, i agree. I would say shit here is a bit more solidified, really. Most of the heavyduty jobs aren’t known here for being “women jobs”. Majority of the people who work on said jobs, that are known for their bad paychecks, are black people, indian descendants, etc etc.

This is the consequence of 500 years of complete slavery, dissonance and prejudice. When people say those doesn’t exist and Brazil is “the land of miscigenation”, i laugh hard, then i proceed to show them what Brazil really is: A land where a shitload of people come for the sexual tourism when Carnaval ( february festivities ) arrive.

There’s a shitload of things wrong with Brazil. I’ve met only ONE female bus driver in my life, most of them are the cashiers on the bus. This is entirely a cultural issue that’s just ingrained in people nowadays.

Just so you guys know: My mom is a social assistant. She actually believes that because of her being a woman and having a weaker body, she should be paid less than a man for not being able to, for instance, convince a family of people with ex-prisoners to move because it’s a risky area. She finds that the intimidation makes the job easier and men should be paid more for it.

I find that pretty mind-boggling. It gives me a good insight on how stuff actually is with social interactions.

7BitBrian
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7BitBrian

I’m glad to see this type of stuff coming forward but I dont think this is a great example personally. That movie is a romantic comedy mostly marketed towards women, so Natalie Portman wasn’t the major pull, Ashton was. Natalie is an amazing actress but for a movie like this more people come to see it because of actors like Ashton who is more well known for these types of films than Natalie is. Portman actually got some flack from some of her fans for doing this movie because they considered it to low brow for her.

I mean this doesn’t explain away it all, or the size of the difference, but in this particular case with Ashton being a much bigger pull it does make more sense to me that he gets paid a bit more.

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TheDonDude

I’m unfamiliar with Michele Morrow, Malik Forte, or Geoff Keighley. Are the latter two bigger names or anything? Or did they have a bigger part in Blizzcon?

If not, then yep it’s straight up inequality.

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Armsbend

All relative nobodies. All deserving of the same pay for equal work. Unless the fellows used their cocks to pump the crowd up.

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Soy

Keighley is far more well-known in gaming. Has been for many years. He hosted a VGA show on Spike TV for ten years and has executive produced other video game shows for cable tv. You are right two of those are relative nobodies.

In the context of video games and video game shows one of them is not.

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Armsbend

I consider all three relative nobodies deserving of equal pay.

Estranged
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Estranged

https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/12/16768676/the-game-awards-2017-viewers-geoff-keighley-interview

Geoff is a highly recognizable face.

Thank you for pointing this out. This whole story is another example of outrage culture.

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Robert Mann

Hmmm, I’m still in the “Who?!?” crowd there. As noted, though, that would apply to almost anyone they would hire.

Personally, I think bringing in these people is silly, and less cool than other things they could do.

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Armsbend

Maybe but today he’d be lower than your average youtube personality. But he is probably professional – unlike most youtube personalities.

that picture is hilarious though. needs more product placement.

Estranged
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Estranged

highly profession and experienced…

btw, he hated that ad campaign

Estranged
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Estranged

well, I can’t edit this, or I would…

put my other comments back and delete this one

lol

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Marian Čejka

First, i would like to acknowledge presumption of innocent, if shes accusing someone – let her show proof. in other case, i would sue her.

(Edited by mod. Please review the commenting code.)

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Alex Willis

Your transformation of this into a legal accusation is pretty strange. That’s not at all what is happening here. This is an HR issue, not a legal one.

Woman can be very abusive too.

Oh. So that’s where this is going.

kthnxbai

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Bruno Brito

You’re a smart person.

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Cosmic Cleric

This topic makes me sick

Why?

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agemyth 😩

Watch for the warning signs: anime avatar, stating the “presumption of innocence” argument/seeking proof before anything can be taken seriously, suggesting anyone read YouTube comments, and bringing up the “both sides” argument.

These are signs of a comment worth skipping. Poor English is also a flag, but not one I like to put too much weight on because knowing multiple languages is cool.

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Bruno Brito

Never thought i would get to a point where Otakus would be the conservative part of the debate.

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Ben Rubinstein

I sincerely doubt she would jeopardize her career by bringing this information forward if she didn’t in fact have proof. But I also doubt (and don’t think she should) paste her paystubs on Twitter. Why would you assume she is lying?

Also, why on earth would merely discussing this topic make you sick?

hurbster
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hurbster

Don’t you pay the bigger name more ?

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Malik certainly isn’t a bigger name than Michelle, and Geoff is arguable.

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Zora

Imagine a role reversal, would any man dare to complain he’s being paid less than his female co-host because he is not a woman?

How many minutes until he gets shot down with derisive comments around exactly the same “maybe I am more important than you darling” lines?

Oh what do I know after all, I am just a (non famous) woman…

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Zora

Gosh I’ve been a woman for my whole life (which is quite a feat in an era where people switch back and forth at will!) and when I got paid less than my co-workers
it was due to, well… me working less hours, being less of a senior or having lower training or whatever but certainly not because of my being a woman.

At times I got paid more than male co-workers, should I yell for discrimination in that case as well or just roll with it because it’s only bad when you’re the one getting the short end of the stick?

Estranged
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Estranged

The current data says men and women are paid the same in the US, if you factor time away from work for child raising. If one misses 5 years way from work, they miss the pay raises and experience.

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Alex Willis

I…would like to see this data.

Estranged
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Estranged

Alex, my last link that I could find, gotta head out for lunch.

https://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

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Dystopiq

That data is from 2011-2012

Estranged
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Estranged

Given things are better today than in 2011…

Was just an example.

The MSM likes headlines, attention grabbers. You aren’t going to see positives in this area without searching.

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Alex Willis

Thanks. Will read. You delivered!

Estranged
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Estranged

Here is something else I found interesting. I think the issue is not men and women being paid fairly, but the kind of job they typically have in the workforce.

There is a mother penalty. One, because they spend less time working. Two, employers are fearful of another pregnancy. Thirdly, they are more likely to take time off of work, etc.

This is a study showing the major issue, in my opinion.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/04/the-simple-reason-for-the-gender-pay-gap-work-done-by-women-is-still-valued-less/

Look at the data – men dominate the higher paying jobs, while women do the same with the lower paying jobs.

As you can see in the bottom half, we have data that conflicts.

One study in Britain says all things are equal. Another study differs.

This New York times article blames motherhood:

7BitBrian
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7BitBrian

It’s the same government study quoted by Obama and others, it says women are paid 70% of what men are paid Overall, not for the same job, experience, and hours worked. If you read the entire study there is still a small 2% pay gap for same job, experience and hours worked, so that is something we should be looking into. The prevailing theory atm is it’s because women are less likely to negotiate up as highly as men are and thus our efforts need to be put into further education in that area. Helping people to understand their worth and be comfortable with properly negotiating salary.

If you skip the media bullet points that are taken out of context and read the entire study it’s actually very fascinating and points out some problems that we are still ignoring due to those aforementioned media bullet points being pushed on to us.

Estranged
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Estranged

7bit: Right, the 2 real issues:

Why aren’t women more mobile in the higher paying fields?

Why aren’t women taught to negotiate?

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Bruno Brito

Now, you’re asking the good questions, my friend.

Estranged
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Estranged

Bruno, it is just a cultural issue. We need to focus less on salary and more on people.

In my family, the women almost feel guilty for pursuing better jobs. Why not go for better pay, if the time is the same?

Answer? Culture.

Also, there is nothing wrong with being a stay at home mother and the elitist negative attitude towards career mothers needs to end.

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Robert Mann

Sadly, most jobs don’t pay well enough for that in the U.S. Maybe because worker raises over the last 40 years are less than 40%, but executive wages are up over 13000%, and inflation is up over 200%! (And that’s just on the basics like food. Housing and cars and insurance… yikes!)

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Bruno Brito

Uh, there isn’t. There’s nothing wrong with being a homemaid, or even a maid for that matter.

There IS something wrong to assume that women not taking heavyduty jobs, is something normal. It isn’t.

It IS a cultural issue, but still a issue. Treating women like dolls for the entirety of societal existance made this behavior exist. Now we have a completely depleted workforce with people who WOULD be apt to work in several field, and they don’t even consider those fields to be part of their dreams. It’s a constant here, for instance.

Everyone should have the right to decide what they want, and freedom to pursue it. But i don’t agree with wagegaps, and they exist here in Brazil. I don’t agree with keeping a clear issue alive, just for being cultural.

Estranged
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Estranged

Agreed. We have progressed greatly, however. I hate to act like this positive has not happened. Your country, Brazil, is another story.

One of my best friends, she come from your country to obtain her PhD.

Estranged
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Estranged

Alex:

OK, I’ll hunt it down, read it a few months back…

Before I dig this up, remember one thing…

Some of these headlines are misleading. You will see something like:

“Men earn 10K more a year than women” – without factoring in position, rank, education or experience.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-chart

“According to data for 8.7m employees worldwide gathered by Korn Ferry, a consultancy, women in Britain make just 1% less than men who have the same function and level at the same employer. In most European countries, the discrepancy is similarly small. ”

first example

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Daniel Reasor

Internalized misogyny is a helluva drug.

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Alex Willis

This is kind of a jackass post, tbh.

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Ben Rubinstein

Is the jab at trans folks necessary? Also, while I’m glad to hear your life has proved so discrimination-free, statistics show that you’re an anomaly, at least int he US.

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Utakata

Being a small minority to begin with, it is even rarer to seem them switch back and forth. In fact, I am not sure how that’s possible. While there are those who are gender fluid, but they are also quite rare too. The OP is living in a dormitory full of them or believes quite erroneously there’s one hanging out on every street corner (not that would be a bad thing). But yeah, wtf? o.O

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

I think the indication is that the ONLY reason she was paid less was because she was a woman. If that can be proven I’d say she has a case. IANAL as the kids say.

Should be the same deal for a man.

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Bryan Correll

IANAL as the kids say

That acronym is terrible for skim reading.

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Utakata

You are just being IANAL about that…

…err, I’ll show myself out the door now. :(

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Bruno Brito

I’m going to use this A LOT.

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agemyth 😩

I hate that acronym. We should all just stop saying “I’m not a lawyer, but…” comments. It is safe to assume the majority of people commenting on the internet are not lawyers unless otherwise noted.

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Cosmic Cleric

I hate that acronym. We should all just stop saying “I’m not a lawyer, but…” comments. It is safe to assume the majority of people commenting on the internet are not lawyers unless otherwise noted.

You’re forgetting why it came into being in the first place though, as someone would offer an opinion on something on the forums, and someone else would jump all over the opinion expresser as if the opinion expresser was actually stating facts, to try and win an argument, so, IANAL came into being.

You’re still going to need something. I don’t know what, TIOAO seems too peaceful. Somethin’.

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agemyth 😩

Yeah, I get that. It is really easy to misunderstand someone’s casual comment as trying to state things factually or definitively, but I feel the same way about how some people need every opinion accompanied by a IMO/IMHO label.

We should understand that people are usually expressing opinions and hardly ever have law degrees and all that. It is what it is, but IANAL is bad XD

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Cosmic Cleric

but I feel the same way about how some people need every opinion accompanied by a IMO/IMHO label.

I totally get that and agree, unfortunately, others don’t, so you end up having to further define what you are saying from time to time.

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

Woohoo! Just passed the bar now I can stop using that damn acronym and use the one for ‘I AM NOW A LAWYER.’

WAITAMINUTE….

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mistressbrazen

Congrats on passing the bar, a well earned achievement. Once you get sworn in….then you are a lawyer! :)

Estranged
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Estranged

camren, really? wha?

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

I would like to point you towards the acronym, IANAL

No, not that one, the other one.

Estranged
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Estranged

So, do we have a lawyer here?

:)

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Bruno Brito

The true discussion.

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Melissa McDonald

Iceland recently made it illegal to pay men more than women for same job.

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Angerina

It’s already been illegal to pay woman less since 1961. Now it’s just mandatory that companies show their books and that they receive a seal once they’re checked.

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Zora

But did they also make it illegal to pay women more then men for the same job?

Captain obvious is not the hero we deserve, but at times it is the hero we need :P

Siphaed
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Siphaed

I honestly think it should be “illegal to set wages based on any physical and/or genetic attributes, instead basing wage pay only on observable talent related in the field for which the individual is being payed.”

That’s how I think it should be, male, female, in between, eunuchs, whatever. But apparently I’m crazy.

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Gaius Cavadus

I honestly think it should be “illegal to set wages based on any physical and/or genetic attributes, instead basing wage pay only on observable talent related in the field for which the individual is being payed.”

That’s already the law in the U.S. as of 1963’s Equal Pay Act.
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/

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lesh

what is observable talent is your physical/genetic attributes.
that’s basically all of show business

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Robert Mann

Sadly, that IS the focus of Hollywood.

Siphaed
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Siphaed

Um, no it is not. Maybe in a strip club it is. But show business is about the show. Being able to make an audience laugh, cheer, cry, be fearful for the main attraction. It is about drawing a sense of deep emotional investment from those that are in awe of the experience.

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lesh

thats why actors and actresses are mostly above average looking

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Alex Willis

thats why actors and actresses are mostly above average looking

Keep telling yourself that.

comment image

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Robert Mann

And he had how much stardom, comparatively? He did an incredible job, consistently… and got third or fourth hat at best. Thanks for proving the point?

Meanwhile, young person with ‘really good’ looks shows up and gets staring roles in a tiny bit of time, with almost no comparable work, and you just go to the ‘oh, what about this person?’ example? I thought everyone short of politicians knew that was a bad tactic by now!

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Bruno Brito

Truth be told, i feel for Buschemi. The guy is a f*cking legend. I’ve had the pleasure of seeing him in more serious movies, and he delivers, ALWAYS.

His appearance probably was a detriment to him, and i honor his hardwork for it. That being said, NO ONE should have to fight against itself to have a job. Depression is bad enough as it is fightning with yourself. But being judged on looks and such? Damn.

Sadly, it’s how nature and humanity works. Can’t change that, can only make justice out of it.

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Melissa McDonald

He’s a character actor, and they are hired for talent first, but also, for looks that aren’t “beauty”. Hollywood recognizes the occasional need for “real” people in its films (if only to accentuate the beauty of the stars).

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Alex Willis

But being judged on looks and such? Damn.

His success speaks for itself. He is a remarkable talent. And incredibly generous (and brave, given his work as a firefighter).

I agree with you. I hope it didn’t appear that I was making fun of him. I admire him a lot.

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Bruno Brito

No, it didn’t. I know people realize he’s a great actor. Most good actors aren’t really celebrity material. Some are.

Thing is, it stills weights heavily. The appearance of said actors is still something that weights too much. I can’t imagine what this guy been through to claim his heights.

Like, being aware your appearance is a detriment to your job. Think about that.

Melissa, i would agree with you, and actually i do, but like i said, the outer appearance is still a factor that defines a lot. It’s not all, it would be remiss of me to say that ALL that Hollywood does is implant that idea of beauty over “normal”.

I’m just not fond of artificial barriers. The guy is good, he probably fought a lot to be where he is. And i’m sure he had days where those artificial barriers of his appearance appeared. Those are the days that should not have happened.

Estranged
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Estranged

lol

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TheDonDude

Good question! Using my Google-fu, it looks like that would also be illegal.

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silverlock

I just can’t wrap my head around the idea of someone thinking it’s ok to pay the host less then the co host because they’re a women, how did they think this was ok?

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Angerina

Main actors in movies don’t all get the same payment as well. Nor do all rockbands that show up for festivals.

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lesh

because rates are negotiated and she accepted a lower rate. its really hard to actually force ideology onto the market place.

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Cosmic Cleric

I just can’t wrap my head around the idea of someone thinking it’s ok to pay the host less then the co host because they’re a women, how did they think this was ok?

It’s been like that for a looooong time, unfortunately.

The hirer hires the man for serious work, and the woman for “eye candy”, and eye candy is cheaper to find. /shrug

For the record, I don’t agree with that way of thinking. Equality for all.

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Alex Willis

Good for her. She’s completely correct. And we all know it.

I know lots of people who work in game development. At the lower programming levels, pay is about equal across the board. But as soon as you look to management and director-level roles, I’ve been told there is massive disparity. Like, as much as 30-40% in some cases.

I hope she does not face any backlash for getting this conversation going.

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Robert Mann

That’s… most industries. The high end is the problem, and it isn’t in this regard alone. :(

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Angerina

That higher up gap is caused by negotiation and working hours.

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Alex Willis

The former, yes. The latter — not necessarily. It’s a bit misleading to assume women make less because they work less. There is little evidence to suggest that either men or women work any harder than the other. (This does not take into account parental leaves — which are not a factor in terms of potential annual salaries or hours worked.)

As for negotiation: the issue there is that women are often placed in a position of being more demanding, because their opening salary levels are often set lower than those of men. So while it’s easy to say “The sky’s the limit!” to a junior candidate entering her first job in management, it’s another thing to ask her to negotiate upwards from a lower starting position. (Put another way: it’s harder to negotiate higher when you start lower.)

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Cosmic Cleric

There is little evidence to suggest that either men or women work any harder than the other.

Depends on whether you are studying the workplace, or the home.

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Armsbend

“I hope she does not face any backlash for getting this conversation going.”

You know the chances of that are zero.

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Bruno Brito

Although…this is Blizzard. If they do something, it’ll generate a backlash too.

wpDiscuz