Pantheon details its race/class combinations

    
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You can never do this ever, loser.

You didn’t think that any race could be any class in Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, did you? Of course not. No matter how dedicated a Gnome might be, the chart at Paladin School clearly states that you have to be at least this tall to be a Paladin, but also not taller than a human and also not whatever else every other race has other than Human and Dwarf. The point is that each race is rather limited (other than Humans) and you can see which classes are allowed for each race off of the official Facebook page.

It’s bad news if you’re an Ogre, since you only have four classes available to you (and one of them is Dire Lord, which is a normal lord placed in perilous circumstances, one may assume). On the other hand, Dark Myr get nearly as many options as Humans, so that’s something. Here’s hoping your desired race and class can be combined in the game!

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Raimo Kangasniemi

I am growing more and more interested of Pantheon; from the very shaky beginnings it’s becoming not only the next great hope of Old School MMORPGs, but one of the few big hopes in the generation of MMOs to hit after those saviours ready to launch in the more immediate future; just hoping they could get some serious money behind them while keeping the vision intact.

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Sleepy

This has kind of sold me on the game. I like having to balance race and class choice.

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Raimo Kangasniemi

Everybody can be everything does take off something from the novelty of classes in games and would likely lead to even greater imbalance of Humans Vs Others even in game like Pantheon, whose players can be expected to be more open to other species than in average MMOs.

tethyss
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tethyss

I can smell the grind already due to the xp hit certain non-human races and classes will receive. Good times.

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Amsai

Here is some additional info to off the site too:

Information from Justin “Istuulamae” our Loremaster:

Hey everyone –

Thrilled we were able to finally share our plans for race and class combinations with you all — and field your feedback on them. I want to reiterate what Ceythos has said: these are plans, and while this is likely how we will be moving forward with the combinations it is not the absolute word on them. I also want to invite everyone to review Ceythos’ OP, because he understood some of these selections would be seen as “unconventional” and spoke good words about several of these combos.

There is one thing that I want to humbly put forward: we are making a brand new world. Pantheon has no direct predecessor, it is not a sequel. While it may not come naturally at first, try to let this new world set your expectations of itself. Of course it’s understandable that each of us bring in expectations from our favorite games and experiences. We devs do it as much as anyone. Nevertheless I invite you all to look at these races and classes as familiar in some cases but new and distinct. It’s a practice that has helped us a lot internally, as we push ourselves to think beyond what we might assume “Must fill Box A, B or C” in any given design situation.

One more thing: we wanted to leave ourselves room to grow within each race down the line, be that with new storylines emerging or in expansions or live events. So even if these combos stayed the same through launch, there’s no reason to think they won’t be added to thereafter.

With that in mind I want to address some of the most common comments from a lore perspective.

Where Have all the Crusaders Gone?

While it hasn’t been public facing until now, internally we made the change from Crusader to Paladin I think in Q3 of last year. Without going into too much detail, we felt the name Crusader may have narrowed the scope of the class too much – and – wondered if the history of the term carried too many real-life historical connotations with it. I don’t think that the name change will alter the class at all, but like several of these decisions we wanted to have room to breathe in each instance and make a Pantheon class true to the Pantheon world.

Why Some Casters and not All Casters?

The simple answer here is that we looked at each of the 3 caster classes as distinct and standing on its own merit. When we did that we were able to make the connections to each race more freely and not assume “If One Then All” for each race. So Dwarves for instance — as some have already suggested — prize crafting and smithing to a degree that makes Enchanting a natural fit, but has nothing to do with Summoning. Once we let each arcane class have its own identity in the world, it didn’t feel right to lump them in as a One Caster Equals All Casters package.

Dark Myr Can Sing?

While bards are traditionally known for their upbeat and jovial qualities in MMOs, we felt that the Dark Myr presented a unique and authentic chance to broaden the scope of the class. Songs and melodies in our own world are not merely relegated to the happy side of life. As Ceythos first put it in one of our discussions, “What about the mournful power of a dirge?”

That idea was compelling, especially in the context of the Dark Myr. A huge part of their culture was and is lamenting their history and remembering the excruciating moments after they came to Terminus…

“Many say the cries of anguish loosed that day still linger in the murky waters… Yet the fateful day of their arrival is marked by mourning, one week prior and one week after. Among the ceremony is a reading from ‘The Day of Testimonies’ a collection of witness accounts to the lamentable day.”

While the lore isn’t explicit in this regard, in my mind deep and mournful songs are as much a part of the ceremonies as the readings — which are dramatic and performed in front of the entire assembly. That aspect of weaving together the theatrical with the memorial also fits with a second answer as to why Dark Myr can be bards: the storytelling theater of song. We felt it was too narrow to exclude a troubadour aspect of the Bard. So if you can’t imagine a Dark Myr being inherently joyful, can you imagine them pretending to be, and perhaps using that skill to their advantage? Can you imagine a wanderer from the sea who learns tales of other worlds and casts a spell of song over anyone who will listen? I can, and it only deepens the sorrow and mystery of the Dark Myr.

What About Halfling Pyros?

There were a few ways we could’ve resolved this critical aspect of the Halfling heritage, but the one that felt the most natural was in Halfling Druids. Certain Druidic spells will include fire wielding, and for now that is the primary way Kiren’s Gift of First Magic is manifested. To wield fire is still rare and precious to the Halflings — remember, only Marthus was given the First Magic by Kiren at that time, not all of the Kiri. While we may decide differently down the line, for now it was not a gift that was given to all or to the degree of traditional wizardry.

We may have First Magic manifest in other ways among the Halflings, but for now it is entrusted to the Druids of Sorhiryth.

Gnomes Gone Rogue?

I invite everyone to review Ceythos’ OP. I’ll add to his comment that Gnomen arcane skills can be applied to physical stealth and hiding their form or disguising it. When you consider that they don’t have a fleshly body to hide in the same way an Elf might, it becomes a more natural possibility that some Gnomes — particularly those who are adventurous and wily — to see their unique anatomy and stature as an advantage. An asset.

Here again we asked the question of what is a unique but authentic way to have this race interact with the world. A small-framed, ethereal-bodied, diligent, adventurous and mystical being seemed to us to fit with the Rogue if we stepped outside of the obvious lines of their caster nature. Can you imagine a Gnome assassin darkly flashing between the shadows of a room? I can, and it keeps me up at night.

No Elf Cleric or Pally?

On this most consistent point of feedback I will simply say that we hear you.

Archai Going Monk, not Ranger?

When you think of a martial-based class who uses its body like a weapon, relies on toughness like a mountain and movements like water, doesn’t a race whose body can be made of mineral and imbued with the attributes of water seem like a pretty solid fit? Of all the comments so far, I think this one has surprised a little. It was probably one of the first class/race combo decisions we made, ages ago in fact, when I first pitched the Archai to Joppa.

“What class fits these guys the best?” I wondered.

“Oh, Monk. For sure,” he said.

Then I shaved my head and drew striations all over my body with red markers, IIRC.

Maybe I’m a bit cloudy on that last part, but you get the picture. I do believe over time Archai Monks will seem like a more natural fit to some of you. As for Rogues, bear in mind the celebratory nature of the Archai doesn’t automatically descend into haughtiness. They celebrate freedom and liberation, yes — but also consider thoughtfulness and discernment a virtue. How they use their freedom is very important to them, because it was so hard fought to attain. They are a race that has been tested by their trials and out of them become a culture that celebrates with joyful delight, not taunting arrogance.

——————

OK, so I know there are more questions than I’ve given answers. You all are amazing and your criticisms are read many times over. All of them get consideration, even if they don’t change our decisions.

I personally want to say how greatly I appreciate your patience with all of this. Yet I must ask for more. I’ll be back to answer new questions, and I’m going to invite Ceythos and Joppa to share their thoughts on the additional questions or comments you all have posed. Hope I’ve satisfied some of them in the meantime.

Onward & Upward!

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Melissa McDonald

I’m sure others have asked it, but my only response to the chart and racial class locking is.. WHY?

Why is that more fun?

agemyth 😩
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agemyth 😩

I wouldn’t say it is “fun”. I like that the attention is given to at least try to make race/class combinations make sense for the game’s setting. In EQ1 Ogres were really really dumb and that was reflected in their extremely low starting Intelligence stat. It would irritate me just a tiny bit if they could be Int dependent classes, and the way the stats were designed would put any Ogre Wizards at a serious stat disadvantage.

As a tribal/shamanistic race it made sense that they could be Shaman, a Wisdom dependent class. Cleric is a wisdom caster as well, but Ogres could only worship one of two evil gods or remain agnostic. An agnostic cleric does not make sense in the way EQ1’s world was designed.

I don’t view this as crucial to the experience, but I’ve always felt it adds something to the experience and makes racial choices more meaningful.

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Amsai

The game will involve factions too. As well as the concepts of interdependent gameplay and social constructs. Also the restrictions are based off the lore which creates immersion and makes a world feel real. Some consider this fun. Now I understand not everyone likes this, but this is the reasoning. They are trying to create a fantasy world and not just a fantasy game. Its not just about challenge and gameplay.

Vaeris
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Vaeris

It’s more fun to me because it gives a more plausible, distinct lore. It’s more of a virtual world lean than a “just a game, yay!” one. In much of high fantasy, and look back to Tolkien, not all fantasy races had all the same professions. You didn’t see Dwarf mages, High Elf Dark Lords, Halfling Necromancers, etc. Those distinctions set a tone, an aesthetic for the world that most folks who have been playing table top RPGs since the late 70s, 80s and 90s are familiar with and enjoy. Those are the same folks that gave this MMO industry its legs with their monetary support.

They are also the folks that gave Brad McQuaid his living (which answers a “why”). It’s fun because it makes the world immersive. Its another way to highlight, put emphasis on the cultural differences between the game’s races. Ogre’s (typically) aren’t erudite and thus them being Enchanters or Wizards isn’t usual. They are typically illustrated as being in tune to a degree with nature and thus Shamans seem a good fit. Gnomes (in high fantasy) are typically portrayed as inquisitive and scholarly. Not as Dire Lords or Warriors.

If everyone can be everything is anyone really something? So yeah, the fun is in having a lore and world that isn’t homogeneous and going beyond just words on a screen and different artwork to achieve that.

agemyth 😩
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agemyth 😩

It isn’t the right move for every game, but this would be the right game for this to exist. As a former EQ1 player, I like the idea of race/class combinations that make sense for the game’s lore.

Just for fun, here’s their old options from the Kickstarter days. Also, the (failed) Kickstarter had a estimated delivery date of January 2017. Also below is the full list of potential classes/races from that page.

Classes
1. Cleric
2. Dark Knight [presumably turned into Dire Lord]
3. Crusader [paladin]
4. Rogue
5. Enchanter
6. Wizard
7. Shaman
8. Summoner

Races
1. Ogre
2. Revenant [undead race]
3. Human
4. Dwarf
5. Elf

Stretch Races
1. Halfling
2. Gnome
3. Vrilaska [reptilian race]
4. T’Jinn [genie race]

panth.jpg
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Tony Garcia

I worked on that first failed venture. I truly wanted a Revenant Crusader, but that was not allowed. Lore-wise, it was logical, but never added. I still love the Revenant as a race.

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Warking

I miss you working on the project, its a shame how the races turned out in some regard.

Vaeris
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Vaeris

Love it. It adds a flavor I like in my MMORPGs. Others may not, but there are PLENTY of other games out there for them. Indeed the majority of the industry is “don’t penalize, don’t restrict” to the point they are watered down IPs in my view. Not interesting or very distinct. If Pantheon continues this path I’ll certainly give it a go.

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Luxxicon

That is a bit of a shame. I get they want the old-school feel, but this seems like a limitation we could have done without.

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Tamanous

The limitation exist because of race cultural and distribution differences. It’s roots are in lore and without it lore suffers. It goes far beyond being an “old-school” feel. This harkens back to true role playing games far beyond video games. Lore is the centerpiece of this game.

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Greaterdivinity

Booo, race class restrictions : (

Guess I’ll end up being human again, because of course paladins have only two race options : |

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Tamanous

As I noted above, it makes no sense having all races be a certain class when that cultural element doesn’t exist within it. It would be like Aztec being able to become riflemen before European influence … why? because game balance?

Rethink what is trying to be created and you will see why so called “restrictions” actually add more to the concept of some games while less restriction only creates a hollow shell.

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Crowe

@Tamanous
I’m not sure I understand the argument for it to make sense. This is fantasy/fictional so the sense can be whatever they want it to be. I disagree with your opinion that restrictions like this add more to the concept of this game.

My personal opinion is that they should give racial bonuses so that people might *want* to make a dwarf or human paladin above the other races… but they would still be able to make a non-dwarf/human paladin if they really wanted.

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Tamás Illés

“This is fantasy/fictional so the sense can be whatever they want it to be.”

Fantasy/fictional worlds can have their own limitations too. A good example is Warhammer’s Old World, where things like orc wizards sitting in Altdorf’s taverns are impossible for good reasons.

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Crowe

So maybe the orc wizards should sit somewhere else? That would be fine with me.