Tale of Toast is giving up on being a free-for-all PvP MMO

    
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We’ve been keeping an eye on Tale of Toast since last year in the lead up to its early access launch back in February. It’s one of those hypercute MMOs that tricks you into thinking you’re in for a fun romp, then whacks you upside the head with hardcore PvP and painful death and corpse looting. That description right there was probably enough to convince some of our readers to close their browsers, but it seems the devs are having a change of heart after the reviews started to pour in.

“When we started creating Tale of Toast, we set off with the mind that it would be possible to have a no-rule open world PvP MMORPG,” Toasty Leaf AB writes on Facebook this week. “From feedback, testing and such we have come to the conclusion that while this concept is great in theory, it didn’t turn out as good in practise in our game.”

To fix the problem, the company will disable PvP in the game by default and instead create a “brand-new dedicated PvP zone that is extremely large” for folks who choose to take part in PvP. No one is forced to enter that “no-man’s land,” but rewards and tradeskill nodes will be better for those who dare to venture in.

Rather appropriate given the Ultima Online Trammel discussions earlier this week, eh?

Source: Facebook. Thanks, Kinya!
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Schmidt.Capela

Also, from the game’s news panel on Steam:

We are also planning on opening a new server, fully dedicated to open world PvP. If you want to move your Account to the PvP server, then you must create an in-game ticket (F1 while in-game) on a character on your account where you say that you want to move your account over to the new PvP server. Also mention which Realm you want your account migrated from.

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Strana M

If their current server is open world PvP, seems like it would make more sense to open a PvE server.

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Schmidt.Capela

It would usually be less disruptive, yes. Though they might be facing a situation where most of their current players are already PvE-focused players, in which case making the PvE players jump through hops to get their preferred play style would cost them more players than having the PvPers jump through hops.

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Schmidt.Capela

Another tidbit, dev responses on Steam suggest they intend to make the rules on the PvP and PvE servers different and tailored to their respective communities, taking into account the feedback from players that play on each server. This explicitly includes things like progression speed; as the devs said, if most players on the PvP server want doubled XP gains, that is going to happen.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Not anymore. They literally had 10 requests to transfer to the hardcore PvP server. 10 requests. 10 people… lol. So they’re no longer going to have a separate server for it but instead just have PvP areas on the normal server.

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Jack Kerras

That’s the whole crux of this article, as I understand it.

Catering to free-for-all PvP-loving players just isn’t even remotely profitable. I’ve been bitching about this in Worlds Adrift’s forums/reddit for quite a while; I recognize that it’s all physics and it’s hard to make PvP less a part of the game, but the newbie stomping is -extremely- real, and it turns people RIGHT the fuck off of the game.

And there’s no other game where you can just… make an awesome airship, designed however you want, and fly around? :/ Urg.

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Nick Smith

I’ve been playing. I honestly wondered how many people would actually move to a full pvp server and the impact it would have on a already small community. Glad they are not creating the pvp server.

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Castagere Shaikura

Which proves that pvper’s are looking for easy kills and not the challenge they always claim they like about pvp. Give them their own server and they chicken out big time. All they want to do is gank low level players. This has been proven for years. Every mmo that had pvp server were low population and closed down.

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Castagere Shaikura

I wish someone could explain to me the thinking mmo Devs have about open world pvp and how everyone loves it. I just would love to sit in on the pitch of this at the meeting. I really want to know where this comes from.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

“… while this concept is great in theory, it didn’t turn out as good in practise in our game.”

Seriously? I don’t know where they got this idea that ffa pvp was a great concept if they’ve been at all aware of “recent” gaming history since about 2000.

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socontrariwise

Yeah. Surprise.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

People aren’t happy with an Open PvP gank fest MMORPG where you lose all your stuff? Go figure! Who could have seen that coming?

It ended up like some other games that tried the same thing, people were literally waiting standing outside the cities to gank whoever came out. New players who tried to leave just got killed over and over again and couldn’t do anything. It was so bad that the gankers were bored waiting for someone new to venture outside to kill.

Why didn’t these PKers fight each other instead? Fair competition isn’t what they’re looking for for one. They’re in the same ganking bully guild and agree to leave each other alone so that they can more easily pick on the people who have no interest in PvP, like these brave souls so often choose to do.

Looking at their news, they had 10 requests to transfer to the hardcore PvP server (literally 10 people in their player base liked the hardcore open PvP) so that idea was canceled and they’ll just have PvP areas on the current server.

Anyway now that the game is no longer a gank fest I actually will go dabble on it a bit.

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Al_Bundy

One of the reasons why ASTA had to shut down was the mandatory open world PvP in the highlevel areas that everyone hated. The Exiled/Das Tal currently has zero (!) players online. Same reason: Permadeath-PvP.

I simply don’t understand how people in 2018 can still think that ffa Permadeath-PvP is a nice feature. It’s not! It’s annoying, it’s unfair, nobody likes to be ganked and it will always scare away newbies/beginners.

There isn’t a single permadeath ffa PvP game that can be considered “successful”. Please devs, just quit making those title,s nobody plays them anyways.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

D’uh.

Having said that, I wish them luck realigning their game. It won’t be easy. Those that want OW FFA PVP will be snitty and those that were turned off will be hard to woo back and the drama is thick and deep.

I note that it is still in Early Access, although they have a cash shop so by MOP community standards, it is launched. All the same, abrupt change has become common in EA titles, which is one reason I have sworn off games in Early Access.

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Jeremy Barnes

Free for All PvP is a lot like trickle down economics.

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Jack Kerras

It only works when personal interests and people-ness is not involved?

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Akagi

I really wanted to play the game, but the PvP thing stopped me. Now I can safely give the game a go.

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Vorender

Wow! A company realizing that hardcore PvP is super niche at best? Priceless.

Justin Olivetti
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Justin Olivetti

GOOD ON YOU

Xijit
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Xijit

it didn’t turn out as good in practise in our game

Xijit
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Xijit

No Shit!?!?!?!?!

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Schmidt.Capela

Apparently they were seeing similar results to what UO saw: atrociously high player churn, with most players stating in the exit survey that they were leaving because of the open PvP.

To which I say: before spending huge amounts of time and money creating a game, spend a few days researching what came before and, more specifically, previously made mistakes in the same genre. You don’t need to use the exact same solutions previous games used, but you need to be aware of the issues so you can meet them with one or more potential ways to solve them already planned instead of having to madly scramble to devise a plan while your players are already leaving.

Xijit
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Xijit

Just simple god damn logic says “Players who like to build shit do not like having their shit stolen.”

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Dead on. Don’t know why this is such a hard concept for devs to grasp.

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socontrariwise

Because they seem very rarely to be the kind who “likes to build shit” and maybe aren’t ganker … and definitely lack fantasy and reflection. :(
Or they have TOO much fantasy (“Our players will behave TOTALLY different.”).

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Schmidt.Capela

IMHO, being able to risk the amount of work and money that goes in making a game without going crazy requires a certain frame of mind, one that is also common among people that legitimately enjoy playing a FFA PvP MMO. Thus, you have a disproportionately high number of devs that enjoy FFA PvP.

Add to the mix confirmation bias — the human tendency to believe others think the same way you do — and you get this situation where a lot of devs that are fans of FFA PvP misread the market, seeing a mass of untapped FFA PvP players where there is none, and build FFA PvP games for which there isn’t much demand.

Confirmation bias is one of the reasons why heeding the story of the genre, rather than blindly trusting one’s gut feeling, is very important. Gut feelings are based on one’s preferences and experiences, which means an inexperienced dev whose preferences don’t align with the mainstream will often have misleading gut feelings.

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cista2bpo

That’s the way to do it, having large zones both for PvE-people and PvP-people in the same game is how my favorite games are structured.