World of Warcraft confirms that allied race requirements aren’t changing any time soon

    
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This part is cool. Everything around it, not so much.

Today is the day of World of Warcraft turning to the first page of Battle for Azeroth with the expansion prepatch going live today. Next week sees the story buildup kicking into high gear. But if you’ve been holding off on trying the expansion until the Allied Race requirements (added several months ago) were eased up… well, you’re going to be waiting quite some time, as the official word is still that there are no plans to ease the requirements for unlocking Allied Races.

Players who wish to unlock Highmountain Tauren, Nightborne, Lightforged Draenei, or Void Elves will still need to reach Exalted with a specific reputation for each and finish a story achievement, just as before. (The other allied races will have other requirements and can be unlocked once the expansion is live.) Of course, this isn’t actually a change; players have had these requirements in place since the pre-purchase bonus was announced, and that means several months to unlock the races. If you’ve waited in hopes that it would be easier by the expansion launch, though? Not going to happen.

Source: Twitter via Blizzard Watch

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Songs for Children

To maximize profit while minimizing effort on content, the subscription model demands that Blizzard construct lengthy, repetitive grinds to keep players subscribed month to month. And it keeps happening, mainly because players come back, regardless of all their whining and threats to unsub. Want better content? Put your money where your mouth is.

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John Kiser

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I think it is honestly more on players. They’ve become jaded over the years and burnt out more than anything. All mmorpgs are a grind even those people like me remember fondly as being better than todays MMORPGs. The grind used to be longer and would likely actually drive a modern mainstream gamer insane.

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Songs for Children

Speaking about WoW specifically, the journey to level cap was certainly longer, but it was also more immersive. It was more about the journey in the first iteration, anyway.

The grind used to be longer and would likely actually drive a modern mainstream gamer insane.

I keep hearing this idea, but I don’t buy it. There would not have been such a demand for WoW classic if this was some sort of universal truth.

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Kross Vilalobos

Dividing your playerbase like a champion.

One half: Its easy it just took me 1-3 days (1-2 months) to get the rep I need to play all the races I don’t care about playing anyway because I don’t mind to mindlessly grind anyway and lose all sense of time. Its easy for me therefore that makes it OK!

Other half: I don’t really have that much time in my life to grind for races. Every game up until now have had the races unlocked upon release of the expansion, why is this different? I was interested in playing them when I returned, but now I know I have to play mindless content I don’t care about for a unknown amount of time due to life and not being able to devote my entire time to the game just to do it again when I unlock said race that I actually came back to play. What is the point?

Tiny minor half: Just deal with it or don’t buy no one cares. Lol yea no one cares if you don’t sub we will play just fine.

Me: *Sigh*

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John Kiser

If you are playing an MMORPG and mind a mindless grind in any way shape or form honestly it isn’t a genre you should be playing much of. Almost all mmorpgs are mindless grinds. Hell gaming as a whole is a mindless grind repeating the same tasks over and over to get to the end.

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Kross Vilalobos

I don’t feel like that is true, a MMORPG doesn’t have to always be a uninspiring mindless grind and people shouldn’t have to go in expecting a mind numbing grind. Gaming in general being a mindless grind is a broad statement and I find that is not true either by a long shot. I feel like people shouldn’t be forced to do content for a obscene amount of time just to unlock a almost completely cosmetic race choice. I feel that cosmetic limitations and freedom of creativity in a MMO or any game is a negative thing. Especially for people who love to RP in MMOs.

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John Kiser

I didn’t say mindless I said it is a grind. Think about it from a logical point of view. You are literally repeating the same thing over and over in games. Be it shooting zombies, slaying monsters, shooting people, running from point to point, crafting this, building stuff up, or anything else you end up doing.

Even some of the most acclaimed games rely on basic grind mechanics with a bit of fluff content tossed in here and there to break it up. When you take the core mechanics they all rely on doing a task of some sorts repeatedly.

What people refer to as gameplay mechanics as far as what a player character can do is often referring to something that could be described as a grind mechanic if that activity is a chore to you as an individual.

This is licking something that isn’t just cosmetic either if you have any real investment in the lore of the game. The allied races aren’t affiliated with the horde or alliance at the point in the storyline where you are approaching them and doing the “faction grind”. You are doing the “grind” so they will become allies to your faction and rather than lazily just shoving this in they attempted to get the player base involved in actually forming these alliances.

I find they could of done it in a better way slightly, but I think the fact it is dated is perfectly acceptable honestly.

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John Kiser

To further add to this. Why is it that putting a race that has to do with the stroyline behind a content wall a bad thing to you. It actively engages the player in forming that link/alliance or whatever with that race/factions or what have you. Getting a player directly involved in these things should be a good thing because it means that it should have a bigger impact.

By similar logic to what you use people should have all aesthetics open from the start of the game making earning those appearances pointless as all hell.

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Kross Vilalobos

Starting you did say mindless like three times in your last post lol. I never had any problems with grinding in games that I expect to be grindy, but I’m pretty sure in my shooting games I’m not just shooting and only shooting. In my building games I’m not just building and only building and repeating that, games have multiple layers to them they are not just that simply described. Also who are these “people” you speak for when it comes to gameplay mechanics for player characters? A bit broad again. I know I am not part of that population at least.

I also feel like what you said about doing the grind so they become allies makes absolutely no sense and is just fluff pulled out of nowhere. No way anyone is forming a link to the races through world quest and rep grinding that’s ludicrous. Also you can grind the rep on both sides of the horde and alliance and still unlock races your not even aligned to. Horde can unlock Alliance races and vise versa.

Its a boring cheap uninspired wall made to force people to do something they shouldn’t have to do, it makes no sense besides stretching what little or the lack of content they had in the expansion. It wouldn’t be bad if you only had to do the main storyline, but no you gotta waste your time grinding world quest for rep too.

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Utakata

Off-Topic/Tip Alert: As Mr. Bryan suggested below, login issues abound currently. Likely a problem with every player and their dog trying to zerg in while the client is still sorting itself out with the newly minted 8.0 hot mess. So with that, I am off to enjoy myself in LynStar (Blade & Soul) while WoW sorts itself out, lol.

Source: https://twitter.com/BlizzardCS

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Utakata

Update: They’ve seem to have cleared up for now. o.O

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Ben Stone

They let everyone know the allied race requirements ages ago, and honestly they take like 1 week tops (longest being nughtborne, the others are far quicker) to unlock with very moderate play. You could still unlock and level one before bfa very easily. It isnt exactly draenor flying level of grind.

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Cosmic Cleric

they take like 1 week tops (longest being nughtborne, the others are far quicker) to unlock with very moderate play.

Love to hear what your definition of ‘moderate’ is.

All four take, in total, at a minimum, 45 hours of gameplay to unlock.

It isnt exactly draenor flying level of grind.

So it’s 50% less of an unfun grind, so it’s ok? It’s still a grind, that didn’t use to be a grind (getting a new race/class). And just for a reskin.

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Bryan Turner

Kind of hard to work on allied races when you can’t even play the game.

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Kip Braunstader

im really glad that they clarified this i was so close to pulling the trigger on this expac…my wife has already bought it..but this may be the first wow expansion i don’t get.

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Sorenthaz

I don’t really see why they should expect people to go through the Legion grinds post-110 just to get some allied races. Leveling an allied race from level 20 to level 120 will be enough of a chore as-is.

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John Kiser

Leveling in WoW is stupidly easy no matter how far it is really…. I never understood people complaining about grind in MMORPGs released in the last 10 – 14 years. They are cake walks for the most part and require no real time investment anymore.

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Cosmic Cleric

I never understood people complaining about grind in MMORPGs released in the last 10 – 14 years.

1) They are not fun. They are boring work.
2) They subtract from precious daily recreational time (see #1)
3) Early MMOs didn’t need that kind of grind, to be fun. Why is this kind of grind needed now?

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John Kiser

Uhhh, MMORPGs prior to WoW were a massive grind comparatively was my point which seemingly went completely over your head. It also seems like you were probably not around for early days of MMORPGs in any way shape or form. Many many many older MMORPGs still have faction locking for verying things. Everquest required you to be allied with certain factions (and still does) for certain quests etc. This is a norm and part of the MMORPG genre.

MMORPGS are all about grind. Like that is literally what the genre is. You are either grinding quests, grinding dungeons, grinding for gear, grinding crafting, grinding gathering. About the only non grind based mechanic in the entire thing is something that isn’t even a mechanic of the game, but of the players and that is the RP communities within them.

Early MMORPGs and current MMORPGs are all about grind. The grind just used to take longer. My point is that WoW’s grind and modern MMORPG’s grind are literally easier in every way shape or form vs older MMORPGs where faction grinds were and still ARE a thing. If you think early MMORPGs didn’t have faction grinds you are blinded by nostalgia or don’t actually remember them or never actually played and are pulling it out of your ass.

The faction grind here is EASY period. Modern MMORPGs are so easy compartively. What used to be a year + of investment into a game or even months is days/weeks/far fewer months. You can cap out in WoW stupidly fast with how they go about things. There isn’t even an alternative advancement system in place like many older and some newer MMORPGS like rift have to make playtime beyond level cap have some meaning. It is literally just gear grinding to do raids to get more gear and be at the “top” as far as gear. That is literally all you are doing running a gear grind treadmill, but you view it as “more fun” than having to actually invest time in the journey that older MMORPGs provided. You didn’t notice the faction grind as heavily because often times you did enough for them just killing and doing other shit because you didn’t outlevel an area stupidly fast.

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Cosmic Cleric

It also seems like you were probably not around for early days of MMORPGs in any way shape or form.

-snicker-

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Cosmic Cleric

The point that I was making with #3 was not that there wasn’t grind in early MMOs, but that grind was NOT NEEDED to have fun in MMOs, that earlier MMOs were not designed in the same way that later MMOs are designed, to REQUIRE grind. You could avoid grind, where now, you can’t (if you want to progress, that is). Accidental, vs. purposeful, Skinner design, past vs. present.

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John Kiser

And you can avoid them now just like you could back then. This is in regards to specific allied races. The idea with the faction grind is to try and make the player actually be involved in some way shape or form in forming that alliance with those races as opposed to simply having it “handed” to them.

If you wanted to do specific quest lines and the like you couldn’t avoid the grind. You couldn’t avoid grind in the past either since again MMORPGs are purely grind. If you can’t see the subjective “rose tinted glasses” approach you take to older game design I don’t know what to tell you. I was around in those days and have been around in modern days. Simply designing something so the player gets involved with it is now a negative thing. I think it’s more negative to just have some races added in that had little to nothing to do with these groups prior to any of this.

These races were not members of the alliance or the horde in any foreseeable way in ANY story hence why you as an individual are acting as an envoy to attempt to get them to like the alliance or horde and join you in your fight. The whole thing could of been done without it being a faction specific thing and just a really long quest chain for each one, but then people would still complain because that’s all the jaded gaming community that exists anymore can really do.

This gets done and it’s a complaint, that gets done complaint. Hell I think we need to bring back tougher grinds, more group content, and end the bloody rush to end game gear treadmill that current MMORPGS have. Again I honestly think that if you dislike grind so much that this is really a genre to stay away from. RPGs in general are built around grinding in large part. You are doing repeated quests and that’s a grind. Even the witcher 3 is a grind.

Those past grinds faction wise were avoidable BECAUSE quests weren’t you main method of realistically leveling quickly. Getting together a solid group and going out and literally grinding fights with mobs was the best way to do things back in the day and gee guess what? That was an unavoidable grind who would of thought *gasp*

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Cosmic Cleric

You could avoid grind, where now, you can’t (if you want to progress, that is).

That’s one heck of a definition of “grind” you’ve got there if you’re going to argue that older games lacked it as a “necessary” component.

So, I was thinking back to SWG, vs WoW.

With SWG, I never grinded for anything, and always progressed, and always enjoyed the gameplay/content. I played a Doctor/Pikeman, I went out to my machinery and collected mats (the machinery did the mats collection for me, unlike WoW). I worked in my hospital, healing rogue Jedi on the run. I, with other players, did pvp type world content. I socialized in cantinas. Etc., etc.

Right now, in WoW, if I want to get my second artifact, I have to grind (again!) the same World Quests, just to get enough coinage to buy the artifact from the vendor in Dalaran.

I was speaking towards that. In SWG, if I didn’t want to grind, I didn’t have to, I could avoid it, and still enjoy the game. Right now, in WoW, I can’t avoid grind (a.k.a. repeating same content over and over and over again).

I understand that in early MMOs there were crazy grindy things you could do, but I, as a player, never did any of those, I avoided them, and never had to repeat content, to enjoy the game, and progress. I can’t do that in WoW. I have to do class order hall missions, I have to do world quests, I have to run the same @#$@# dungeons, again, again, and again, to be able to upgrade my gear (progress).

Finally, early MMOs were not purposely designed Skinner boxes made for retention, they were designed as fun virtual worlds, and the quality of the game kept the customer playing, kept the retention. New MMOs, not so much.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, my definition of grind is having to repeat content more than a handful of times, especially so when its not fun content (especially when fun diminishes after said content has been repeated a few times). There are levels of grindiness, as well (mild, allot, too-much, OMFG, plaid, etc.).

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John Kiser

Then stick to sandbox mmorpgs and stay away from Themepark MMORPGs? Seriously. The new allied races are a nicety and the whole thing with getting the faction standing is part of the story line.

What you are describing for an MMORPG just isn’t going to happen in the mainstream and SWG is a bad example to use here as it’s a different “type” of MMORPG.

Sandboxes rely heavily on different types of gameplay mechanics most of it emergent. SWG relied a lot on interopability and specifically had non combat roles and the like that people could partake in. You didn’t need to do the ole smash mobs face in type of gameplay with massive quest hubs and the like. There was a lot more going on in that world as a result.

I think it is disingenuous to compare the two different types of MMORPGs because again one is about players creating content and the like. The problem boils down to it being rather clear you prefer one type over the other and should probably just stay away from Themepark MMORPGs which have pretty much always been like this. Meridna 59 and Ultima Online were still grindy games as were Asheron’s Call, Lineage and a huge slew of basically everything that has existed in the genre from the get go.

MUDs and GMUDs had a bit more to them, but this genre has always had a predilection for being very very grind heavy and complaining that a nicety added in somehow “forces” people to do something is just being flat out silly at this point. You aren’t forced to do this or that. You don’t need an artifact with the new expansion as those are phased out etc.

Again maybe just maybe you as an individual just need to back away from the genre or stick to the type of games in the genre that you like. It is rather evident that any sorta themepark isn’t going to meet what you want.

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Cosmic Cleric

What you are describing for an MMORPG just isn’t going to happen in the mainstream and SWG is a bad example to use here as it’s a different “type” of MMORPG.

That’s my whole point, so TY for making it. MMOs of the past were optional grindy, where new ones are required grindy.

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John Kiser

You have one example where MMORPGs weren’t really grindy. The rest of the genre was and is. Again you can’t compare sandbox mmorpgs vs themepark mmorpgs and say they are essentially the same and one should be like the other directly because that just doesn’t work. There are elements they can adopt from one another, but realistically speaking no in early MMORPGs and ones of the past you couldn’t avoid the grind.

In large part SWG was one of the few that broke the mold in terms of avoiding grind if not the only one because of how its gameplay systems were set up. I’ve been around MMORPGs for a long long long time. I’ve sat through this argument numerous times and it’s always someone that points out SWG. Go and actually replay those early MMORPGs that still are around and you’d actually see that it’s all grind that you can’t avoid. It just did less “quest hub” type situations and that was realistically it.

Look I get you like SWG (I was a huge fan of the game too), but you are realistically comparing apples to oranges when doing themepark vs sandbox. Very few MMORPGS in the 22 – 23 years I’ve been playing MMORPGS (+2 or so years of MUDS/GMUDS) have not relied on grind mechanics that are unavoidable even if those grind mechanics are purely the game itself and how you level. Very few have broken that norm and SWG was one of the few MMORPGs period that didn’t rely on purely combat oriented focuses and instead allowed players to do a slew of things that still allowed progression of non combat oriented things.

That said you can’t compare that one instance properly and say it represents all older MMORPGs because my experience goes back a long long ways and I’ve lived the grind of those games hardcore in my younger days.

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Cosmic Cleric

You invalidate my facts, when they prove my point, and move the goal posts (sandbox MMOs are not allowed as proof, etc.). I just used one MMO example, but there are others, where grind is OPTIONAL (never said grind doesn’t exist).

There’s a definite shift in how MMOs are designed and coded, Skinner-box wise, in the past, vs. today. There just is. And today’s MMO needs you to do repetitive content to progress, since that’s the only Skinner box addictive content available to you from them, and they can’t make that kind of content fast enough to remove the grind with always fresh/new content. There’s other kinds of content that exists, and how they are created (player created, non-Skinner box dev created, etc.), but you don’t want to hear/consider those.

So, I’m going to agree to disagree at this point, and move on. This discussion is cutting into my recreational time, and I don’t believe you’ll consider anything new that I’m saying, as we have different view points of what is an actual MMO, one more limited in scope, than another

Have a great day, fellow gamer. Enjoy the grind! :p

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John Kiser

I’m not moving the goal post. I’m pointing out it is an apple and oranges comparison as they aren’t focused on targeting the same type of gamer. The defining “shift” is that MMORPGs are targeting the lowest common denominator and attempting to make the grind or journey minimal while making end game the all important thing. The grind existed in the past.

Player created content is a variable thing and is more important in sandbox MMORPGs and actually far more prevalent in them. I do take them into consideration, but player created content still exists in any MMORPG out there it is what the entire RP community is based on.

Battle for Azeroth is giving players that ability to get involved “in the battle” and sorta have a flag for pvp on all the time unless they turn it back off in their main city (stormwind for alliance) which should create some of that “player made” content you speak of, but you focus on just the quest or faction grind and ignore any other aspect of the game.

Also that’s themeparks in a nutshell and always has been. The problem is that the scope of content has become very diminished with HOW FAST you end up rolling through everything now. There are areas in Everquest for instance that are still unexplored to this day. Games have gotten much smaller worlds and have gotten VERY easy over the years so much so that people whine about any sort of grind mechanic that doesn’t let them get their shit instantly.

And that’s my problem with a lot of modern MMORPG players. They want everything NOW NOW NOW. Gotta get to level cap now so there is now tokens that make you the level cap of the old expansion and you only have to work on 10 levels and the content that exists leveling wise you just plow through so fast it is ridiculous.

I remember when hitting level cap actually you know took some time in themepark style MMORPGs. I also remember when you “built” your class (since i started mmorpgs with meridian 59) and how you put your stat points in when you leveled effected what spells/skills you could learn. I remember games that had no real “level” systems and relied on you “doing” something over and over to get better at it (basically a grind of a different type). I’ve been around the block and again there aren’t that many that weren’t focused purely on grinds of some sorts.

Even your SWG story is a “grind” in a sense. You are doing a repetitive task and relying on “emergent gameplay” to break it up.

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Cosmic Cleric

EDIT: I don’t mean to be dismissive of what you wrote, you wrote it well, with some good points, but…

Dude, you realize we’re the only ones left in this huge ballroom? They’ve cleaned the tables, turned over the chairs, swept the floors, and there’s one poor employee by the back door with his hands on the light switches, just waiting for us to be leave. “Turn off the lights, the party’sss overrrrrrrr.”

How about we talk about the new Star Wars Clone Wars season that Disney is making right now, instead?

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Cosmic Cleric

Except… literally, right here, you are discussing the things you ground for in that game. You’re trying to come up with a definition for “grind” that doesn’t cover the stuff you enjoyed doing, but it’s still grind.

That’s not true, and an unfair comment to make (italicized part). I’ve stated plainly what I think of as a grind, and wasn’t trying to bend it to my will either. Just starting what I think is grinding.

To me, repeating an act on its own is not grindy, if its a fun act to repeat, and its not done too often. It has to be both UNfun and repetitive, to be grindy. So, I don’t see it as grinding at all, just playing in the virtual game world.

For example, in SWG, to go out and place a harvester, the act of placing a harvester is repetitive, but its not grindy in my mind, because I would have to explore different planets, fight mobs, location the best locations, which would change every week, then place the harvester, and leave it alone, coming back days, or a week later, to repeat. I’m emergent in the world, and something I did weekly. And doing this task allowed me to progress, because with the mats I can make meds to sell, and I progress in monetary worth as well as rep on the server, and can heal others in pvp situations, etc.

Yes, I have to repeat the action of placing an harvester, but if you go a week between repeating a fun task, is that really grinding? Or just gameplay? One thing for sure, I’m having fun the whole time, not feeling like I have to work.

In WoW, I HAVE to do the same world quests (and/or order hall campaigns) every day, to gain rep, and to gain coinage, to be able to progress. There’s no variance to it, there’s a small set of predefined mobs to kill in predefined locations. There’s no difference, there’s no change, its the same thing over and over again, so both repetitive, and UNfun. And, there’s no alternative for me than world quests/campaigns, if I want that second artifact, so I need the coins to purchase it (progress).

It’s still repeating the same content over and over again, and while you could definitely argue that patching up rogue Jedi is a very plaid grind, it’s still a grind. Arguing “well, doing the same tasks over and over” is a “then vs. now” thing.

And I stopped playing SWG when the Jedi Holocron grind became a thing, because, well, it was repetitive and UNfun, a.k.a. “grindy”.

In order to progress in World of Warcraft, you have to do a bunch of story-heavy quests. (You do not need coin for a second artifact; I’ve had several characters with multiple artifacts unlocked, it’s just more story stuff.

I have four 110’s, and one had two leggos, one had one, and the other two had none, and I did all of the quests for all four of them, so remember there is a RNG thing involved here, and you may find yourself having to buy the leggos because you came up short. /shrug

It’s a nice story to tell ourselves that some version of video games wasn’t meant as a tool for us doing repeated things and enjoying it, but that doesn’t tend to line up nicely with the reality, and it locks you into trying to defend “things were better back in the day” instead of “I don’t like this and don’t want to do it.” It’s not an ethical issue. It’s a reward you don’t want to fulfill the requirements to unlock.

The only reason I speak to the good ole days is because the MMOs made then are different than now, not because things are better in the past (heck, I’m one hell of a sci-fi fan who wishes I could live long enough to see footprints on Mars, etc.)(and TY Amazon for renewing The Expanse!).

Its DEFINITELY an ethics issue, insofar as because the games being designed, built, and sold by companies today (IMHO), are meant to addict (not in the literal drug sense, but the “keep them hooked” sense) people, moreso than the games made in the past, Skinner box MMOs, etc. Its wrong for game companies to addict their players to repetitive unfun gameplay to keep player retention, vs., spending more time, and making less money (hire more devs, etc.), generating more original healthy content that their customers would enjoy more. I don’t think anyone on the planet wants to repeat the same stale content over and over and over again, in any game, forever, even WoW players, if its work, and not fun.

And yes, things were “better back in the day” because MMOs were designed, built, and sold, differently, than today. ‘Not wanting to do something’ is because the gameplay is bad now, where it wasn’t previously, so then you would want to do something.

It’s a reward you don’t want to fulfill the requirements to unlock.

In a video game, during my recreational time, yes, there is a limit of how much “work” I will put into something, before I deem it not worth the effort. Life is too short to just live for a video game, and not “putting in the work” doesn’t mean you’re a lazy person, just an observant one, who values his/her time, recreational/free, or otherwise. I don’t want to do some repeat content because I’m lazy, its because its either unhealthy or unfun content to do in the first place. That didn’t used to be a problem in the past, but its a problem now.

Ack, now you got me writing novel replies! :p Just gotta trust me, I’m not a lazy person, I used to run a WoW guild, its just that the WoW content, IMHO, has degraded over time, from not only pre-WoW MMO content types, to even early WoW MMO content types. I’m speaking more towards that. When someone tells me WoW is the only kind of MMO that is a true MMO and its skinner box content is fine, well, no, its not, going to speak up against that. /shrug

Thanks for your time in reading this. :)

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Cosmic Cleric

The problem with trying to use a definition like this (“it’s not a grind if it’s fun”) is that it only stands up as long as you’re defining fun the same way as literally every other person on the planet. You don’t enjoy world quests, but I do. A third person might enjoy EQ-style camp-and-pull leveling. I am willing to bet that if you really searched for it, you’d find someone who literally found Progress Quest to be the most fun game ever instead of a one-off gag that’s briefly funny.

So, at this point the topic gets complicated, because its nuanced, but I’ll give it a shot.

It’s very true that what one person finds as fun, another would not. Totally agree with this. That’s what makes it so hard for companies to sell content to us that we want to buy, be it gaming, movies, etc.

Having said that, as a species, we do have common traits, that cover all humans. To repeat myself …

To me, repeating an act on its own is not grindy, if its a fun act to repeat, and its not done too often. It has to be both UNfun and repetitive, to be grindy.

(and for the record, I did say ‘To me’ in that quote)
… I feel safe in saying that ALL human being that ever existed would find repetitiveness unfun/boring, at some point in time of them doing it. When that threshold is hit varies by the human, and the activity being repeated, but we each and all do cross that Rubicon into boredom at some point. It’s in our nature, as humans.

Because of that belief, I stand by my assertion of my comment, that you and I both quoted. I believe it to be fact, with variance of degree.

MMOs have always been grindy games.

To be more accurate, and to help state my point, it’s fairer to say that “MMOs have always included grindy things to do”. It doesn’t mean that all content they had was grindy, just that they had grindy content in them.

I’m telling you, when I played SWG, I never did grindy (unfun and repetitive) content, because I avoided them, and did only (fun) content, to progress (or just to play, have fun, even).

I never camped the Kryat, never completed the jedi holo grind, never just did endless terminal questing until my eyes bled. I avoided the grindy content, and played the non-grindy content. Hell, there’s been times I’ve had more fun waiting for the shuttle in SWG than in WoW proper.

Speaking of WoW, I can’t avoid grind while progressing, in WoW, (I can do other fun stuff, that doesn’t progress the character).

Last but not least, it strikes me that you keep trying to make it clear you’re not “lazy,” which wasn’t something that any of my replies brought up.

I interpreted the following quote by you, bolded part, as doing just that …

It’s a nice story to tell ourselves that some version of video games wasn’t meant as a tool for us doing repeated things and enjoying it, but that doesn’t tend to line up nicely with the reality, and it locks you into trying to defend “things were better back in the day” instead of “I don’t like this and don’t want to do it.”

Apologies, if you did not mean to signal that I was being lazy. I have allot of debate baggage that I carry around, from the “grind is good” crowd/arguments, and one thing they try to do every time is to try and dismiss your anti-grind points as you are just being ‘lazy’ (‘suck it up, and do the work’, etc.). So, I tend to default to that interpretation, on this subject.

I would challenge you to look at all progressing content, in all MMOs, both past and present, and say that NONE of them had progressing content that was not grindy. Not that if they had grindy content, but if they also had NON-grindy content (based on my definition of grindy, that we quoted in this post).

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John Kiser

The thing is that progression in some form or another is still grind. That progression was a break from other methods of grind, but if you are frquently doing it it again is a grind.

When we break down content that might be purely player driven none is particularly grindy unless they continually are doing it. The thing is something that takes a break from one grind to replace it with another type of grind is still just that a grind.

I never said that you were lazy myself. Just that if you don’t like grind the genre and a large chunk of gaming just isn’t a good fit for you.

My point overall is that unenjoyable grind is subjective, but what we can define as grinds are not. A grind is repeating the same task a lot. You can say “hey I find this type of grind boring or bad, or good or fantastic” or whatever, but I get frustrated with people that try and say things that are literally grinds must not be because they have fun with them.

I find some games have bad grind. I’ve even said the allied races could of been done a better way, but that locking them behind actually doing content isn’t a problem like some people want to act like it is because again there is lore/story reasons for it and it is a way to get the player involved in actually forming the alliances.

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Cosmic Cleric

The thing is that progression in some form or another is still grind.

With respect, I disagree, as I’ve stated multiple times why, in my various posts, on this thread/topic. You can progress, without grind. I’ve done it, in MMOs even, before.

Again, using my definition of grind …

To me, repeating an act on its own is not grindy, if its a fun act to repeat, and its not done too often. It has to be both UNfun and repetitive, to be grindy.

YMMV.

I never said that you were lazy myself. Just that if you don’t like grind the genre and a large chunk of gaming just isn’t a good fit for you.

1) Same apology to you then, as Elliot, if you did not mean to state that I was being lazy. I did take your comments as such.

2) The genre was just fine in the past, its only different now. When something changes in one direction, it can also change back in the other direction.

In the case of MMOs, its dependent on the mindset of game companies, and their developers, as to what is fun, and how much profit is needed to be made. Games in the past were made different, than today, because management had a different focus on money, and developers were allowed to craft worlds, not make gambling engines.

3) Telling someone else “this game isn’t for you” is the fastest way to have me think disrespectfully of them, and dismiss them. I had enough of that in WoW years back when end-game raiders kept telling casuals on the General forum that WoW was not the game for them. You might not want to lead with that statement, in the future, if you want your words to be truly considered by the person(s) you are saying them to, since you write well.

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John Kiser

This is your problem though. You are applying an arbitrary meaning of grind to instead of the actual meaning and I get why, but it doesn’t change the actual meanjng. Also no you haven’t progressed in an mmorpg in a non grindy fashion. You think you did because of your arbitrary definition and which basically concludes if it is fun to you it isn’t a grind or if it is something you specifically done do much.

Okay let’s take a look at “alternative progresssion” that has actually been seen in mmorpgs. Leveling through PvP like you were able to do in Warhammer online. This is still defined as a grind mechanic unless again you are applying arbitrary labels to it to try and make it not a grind because you personally have fun with it.

Even going gathering from your station in swg and then going and healing Jedi as a means to progress is again a grind mechanic. You are doing it repeatedly. Again just because you had fun doesn’t suddenly mean it is not a grind or grind mechanic.

I don’t know why you have this issue where you can’t just say “I like some grind and not others” because it is what you are saying without realizing you are saying it.

I never said a specific game wasn’t for you. I said a genre and form of entertainment might not be for you if you don’t like grinding because the genre as a while is based around grind. Again even sandbox games like SWG while they had a more “fun” sort of grind fur to breaks with more roleplay were still grind.

You are arguing with someone that has probably played every mmorpg that had been available in the west and many korean only mmorpgs over the years. I’ve been gaming v since the early 90s (this has to do with were I was up until 1990 being a Mennonite farm for foster care). I’ve been around the mmorpg genre since the beginning and I have a lot of fond memories in pretty much all of them, but I don’t attempt to make excuses for them being grindy just because I had fun in a particular mmorpg.

Also don’t get me started on modern raiding dickheads. They think WoW raiding is somehow “hard” when the mechanics I have seen over the years still don’t compare to some of the earlier raid mechanics or even raid mechanics in EQ/EQ2. You are expected to go in now having watched a video and learned the full fight that way.

Gone are the days of social interaction for learning a fight and letting people know this or that because everyone wants to be in a rush to get it done. That said you can keep your definition of grind, but it doesn’t change what a grind actually is as it just makes it a grind you enjoy not a grind at all.

Fun is in the eye of the beholder as well. Any action is something you may hate may draw someone else in. A lot of people here dislike shroud of the avatar for instance (including me) but a lot of people playing it thoroughly enjoy it.

If you enjoy a grind mechanic and not another that is fine. I just get a little irritated when people try and change definitions of things to suit what they want it to mean simply because they enjoy something or don’t enjoy something. Just say “hey I find this is a bad grind mechanic and could be done differently to be more fun to people like me” and we would be more in agreement with things.

Like I said I think the mechanic for allied races could of been handled differently. I think people complaining about moving it behind a content wall sort of have become problematic in that mainstream gaming has created a bunch of people that want stuff fast as opposed to meaningful stuff. Most people skip qiest dialogue and cutscenes and you are expected to too or you are a burden to them

There is a lot of issues with modern mmorpgs and a lot of it has to do with attempting to recreate a single game’s success and which we could break down why it happens. All mmorpgs and games are going to have grind mechanics that people love or hate or are indifferent to. It is fine ding games with enough of the ones you really like that makes a game feel good or enjoyable to you.

Frankly I’m excited to see how some of these Kickstarter/indie mmorpgs do and see if maybe we can bring the mmorpg niche back to where each game sort of feels uniwue.

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Cosmic Cleric

This is your problem though. You are applying an arbitrary meaning of grind to instead of the actual meaning and I get why, but it doesn’t change the actual meanjng.

You say that like I’m not allowed to decide for myself what grind is, only you.

I feel that my definition is more in line with what most people think, and your definition is more in line with what most modern MMO players have been trained to think, so do think.

To me, repeating an act on its own is not grindy, if its a fun act to repeat, and its not done too often. It has to be both UNfun and repetitive, to be grindy.

I don’t know why you have this issue where you can’t just say “I like some grind and not others” because it is what you are saying without realizing you are saying it.

I did state, multiple times, that I don’t mind repeating an action, if its repeated just a few times, and its fun to do, each and every time.

However, I will never say that I like any forms of grind, because of the way I define grind, its an unhealthy, unfun thing to do, and to be avoided, especially during recreational times. Repetition for the sake of repetition, because the developers do not have enough new content for me to experience, so they must gate me, is not a fun thing to do.

Listen, I don’t mean to be rude, but I’m done talking about this. I’m sure I’m right on this, and I’m sure I’m not going to convince you of it. So, lets agree to disagree, and move on.

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John Kiser

Well, yes I am trying to say that you as an individual don’t get to decide what grind is or is not. There are clear definitions as to what grind is or is not and just because you as an individual feel a certain thing can have a certain definition doesn’t mean it does to the rest of the world is what I’m pointing out. Things you define are still a grind to other people and that’s the thing of it when you arbitrarily apply your own definition anything could not be grind to some people while grind to others. It’s why a set definition for it actually exists.

Grind mechanics can be fun, good, bad, ugly, terrible, horrible, and run the spectrum of being varying things and people can define what is good and fun grind to them, just not what is an actual grind mechanic.

I know you are done talking, but when you take an attitude of I’m sure I’m right on this you are always going to attempt to argue that you are in the right position without really explaining why. This is sort of a feels vs reals situation on what defines grind to you as an individual and what constitutes grind to the rest of the world and game design as whole.

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Cosmic Cleric

Well, yes I am trying to say that you as an individual don’t get to decide what grind is or is not. There are clear definitions as to what grind is or is not and just because you as an individual feel a certain thing can have a certain definition doesn’t mean it does to the rest of the world is what I’m pointing out.

The problem I have is that you speak as you are the authority of how the World defines ‘grind’, that you speak for the World.

I disagree with what you think the majority of humans on the planet (not just humans playing World of Warcraft) would agree on, as far as what grind is.

I believe my interpretation of grind is more accurate than yours, species wide.

To me, repeating an act on its own is not grindy, if its a fun act to repeat, and its not done too often. It has to be both UNfun and repetitive, to be grindy.

I know you are done talking, but when you take an attitude of I’m sure I’m right on this you are always going to attempt to argue that you are in the right position without really explaining why.

Sincerely, I truly feel like I have explained why, to a great extent, multiple times, but you are not listening to what I am saying, probably because its contrary to what you want to believe, so that you can justify your continuing gameplay/involvement with MMOs that do not offer healthy content, so that you can continue to do said unhealthy content.

https://www.google.com/search?q=MMO+Skinner+Box+repetition+grind&oq=MMO+Skinner+Box+repetition+grind

Also, at this point I believe you are just trolling me for a response, considering how often I’ve repeated myself, as well as considering how much you’ve gone out of your way to not reply to what I’ve said, but instead reply with what you want to reply to, just to get another response out of me.

Good day, fellow gamer.

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John Kiser

Maybe you are just projecting at this point. Again it’s what you think so what o think and others think is disregarded. You are one of the few people that seemingly support your narrative of things. Again I will say this. You are applying an arbitrary definition.

I am not trolling you I am pointing out you creating definitions. Even googling stuff supports my definition in large part and not yours if you’d bother to read any of that. Nothing out there supports yours. When there are literal questions of “Is there any mmorpg that isn’t s skinbox” more or less and responses are “I’m sorry hut that is just the mmorpg formula you grind and level up / progress”

I’d say if anyone here is the troll it is very very likely you or you have misplaced anger toward the genre and/or stretch jaded toward it.

I can break down what is wrong with mmorpgs until the cows come home, but you know what? Grind isn’t included in those criticisms because again it is part of the genre as a whole.

Again I have pointed out that there is both good and bad kinds of grind, but the good grinds you enjoy are still grinds. The fact that there is also bad and unhealthy grinds doesn’t negate the fact that the good/fun grinds are still grinds,

You conflate things you don’t like into being bad/unhealthy content. There is not a way to design an mmorpg that consists of levels, gear, skill unlocks, stat upgrades, or hell even content progression that isn’t largely a grind of some fashion.

Your definition of grind literally only includes grind you personally do not like and that is where your problem is. I’m including all grind good or bad as grind because I don’t try and define things to just the things I dislike as being that thing.

Again you just assume I think the grind is a good type of grind or that it was designed well. I have said it could of been done different ways.

Step back and be objective instead of subjective like you are being. I’m trying to apply objective definitions here while you are doing subjective. Again I refer to feels vs reals. You feel something strongly that is counter to the actual definition so you must be right is what your argument boils down to and frankly I am listening yo you, you have just this far refused to look at anything from more than a subjective view point.

I’m someone that tries to not push my opinion on to set definitions. Skinner boxes aren’t really a “thing” and it’s basically s subjective definition created by people that became jaded with the entire genre over the years and simply do not actually realize they are jaded.

I’ve seen a lot of jaded individuals over my long long time gaming in both mmorpgs and standard RPGs and games in general. People get bored of elements that literally define things and can’t find joy any longer so they feel a need to try and push things where their head is leading them even though most of them aren’t sure what they want or what would need to happen to design a whole new paradigm of gaming because at that point it would literally be just that

I am a big proponent of well designed sandbox mmorpgs (that aren’t just designed to be lazy gank boxes like we’ve seen in recent years). I actually enjoy things from both sandbox and themepark mmorpgs.

What you call a “Skinner box” is literally and has literally always been what a theme park mmorpg is and most of what a sandbox mmorpgs is too. The fact you no longer find joy in those elements doesn’t mean much j because at the end of the day without those elements and mmorpg would literally consist of nothing but player based interactions and might as well just be second life with thematic/gameplay type elements tossed in.

If we start removing things people like you subjective find unfun and thus bad to them we would literally end up with an unfun game. Also to add I have repeatedly responded to what you have said. I’m pointing out you are wrong and are attempting to label something your way. Just because I’m not saying what you want to hear doesn’t mean I’ve not responded.

You aren’t going to get me to apply your subjective opinion to a defined thing just because you want to change the definition of it. You notice you continually use the terminolgy “I think”? Ask yourself this. If you think you are right why is there a lot of evidence to the contrary even supporting what I’m saying with a google search?

I’ve again played pretty much every Western and a good chunk of eastern only mmorpgs. I’m someone always analyzing. I can point out even the smallest texture seams and bad meshing/terrain etc and purposefully look for it and other design elements. I have seen the same elements in every mmorpg since I started.

People want to act like they’ve changed a lot over the years, but in reality they haven’t outside of becoming much simpler in the hopes of trying to attract the mainstream crowd. The genre and RPGs again are largely built around grind mechanics in some form or another.

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Cosmic Cleric

The genre and RPGs again are largely built around grind mechanics in some form or another.

I’ve never played a tabletop D&D RPG session, or a single-player computer RPG, that was just a repetitive grind. Not one. I was able to play a MMORPG and avoid all grind while doing it, even though it did have grind activities in it.

Fundamentally, we disagree on what grind is. You can keep saying your way of thinking of grind is right, but honestly from your descriptions on how you see things, its not. I know its not, because I’ve played games without grind that you say cannot exist.

About our discussions here. You need to evaluate your life choices if you spend this much time debating on a gaming forum about how much time a person repeats the same activity in a game, over and over again, before it becomes a repetitive bore (a.k.a. grind). Maybe you should consider that you don’t wish to admit to yourself that what you consider fun is actually just an addictive grind, instead?

We’re not going to change each other’s minds. I’m confident I’m right, as I’ve never met a human being who does not eventually get bored repeating the same task over and over again, and you’re confident you’re right, since you think how things are now are how they’ve always been (hint: nothing stays static when the human race is involved, things change over time, they weave and ebb back and forth, but they never stay still).

We done?

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John Kiser

A D&D RPG session is a slant bit different than a computer RPG and relies purely on player created content with the DM in charge of that campaign. Name a single single player RPG that isn’t reliant on grinding and I’ll call your bluff on it. Progression through a single player RPG defines that it has grind. You are the only person disagreeing with the assessment that my assessment of grind is wrong because YOU want it to be wrong.

Here is the fundamental problem. You playing an MMORPG your way is not the way that the MMORPG plays. If you do not partake in anything in an MMORPG that provides progression you are not playing the MMORPG if it provides progression.

Your logic is fundamentally flawed in this instance because you refuse to admit that you basically avoided doing anything for progression. You are so set on being right you can’t look past your illogical thought process. Again your definition of grind isn’t grind. Anything done at repetition bored, unhealthy, fun, or healthy are still grind. Again just because you personally enjoy the grind doesn’t make it a grind.

I played SWG and enjoyed it as much as anyone else that played it and was mad it went away. Your description of going in collecting your stuff and healing jedis as a means to progress/do things in the game in and of itself is a type of grind. The fact you enjoyed the grind because there was also proper interaction with other players is where you have a problem looking past your “idea”.

The thing is again grind can be done well and it can be done terribly. I never said the grind in WoW or all MMORPGs or even all single player RPGS was good just that the entire genre is literally built on progressive grinding and always has been as far as computer RPGs go. Either you are repeatedly doing quests, repeatedly killing mobs in camps, or what have you you are constantly doing something in a repetitive manner and just because you have memories where you didn’t get bored of it doesn’t mean that those memories didn’t consist of grind in any way.

For an MMORPG again to not have grind would make it a non progression based game that relies purely on player interactions to make up the RPG elements. This game would fail hardcore even among people like you. I also never said these games are only made up of grinding mechanics I said that they toss in a token activity here and there to try and distract from it.

Lets look at the witcher 3 okay or the witcher in genral. This is the “pinnacle” of modern RPGS. Lets also look at baldurs gate or neverwinter nights which were the pinnacle of rpgs at their time. They both consist of you either going out exploring and killing varying things or doing the quests in the game world and following the story which with the progression oft involves you doing grindy things. You are repeating quests to go and do this or that. Often to kill something, investigate something, or find something.

And who I find this or that fun? You attempting to put words in my mouth about something won’t help you. I simply said it is the way the RPG genre is in large part. Hell we can go down the JRPG argument as an easy way to visually back up my argument. Those games HUGELY rely on you killing monsters as a means to progress far enough in level to actually tackle content which again is grind.

You are set in your subjective ways so no it is unlikely I’m going to change your mind. I’m offering an objective fact of what grind is and it’s not based on “my definition”, but the definition that has been laid out now for ages. Also if you are going to say I should re-evaluate my life maybe just maybe you should do the same. I’m sure the time it took me to type what I did is somehow seems more impactful to my time because of the length, but I typed that as I was waking up and going about my day.

Now be a good little jaded gamer and just stop.

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Cosmic Cleric

Here is the fundamental problem. You playing an MMORPG your way is not the way that the MMORPG plays.

Says who, you? Are you the designer of the MMOs that I played in the past? MMO’s used to have multiple avenues to progress, and now, new ones, like Wow, don’t (which is actually what I’ve been commenting about).

If you do not partake in anything in an MMORPG that provides progression you are not playing the MMORPG if it provides progression.

I progressed in SWG, a MMO, without doing any of the grinding progression parts. There were OTHER, NON-GRINDING progression paths available to me, and I progressed.

At one point I was running THE shop on the Kauri server in SWG for meds, a booming virtual business, and was the go-to doctor for Jedi on the run, or when a guild needed a medic for open-world battles. I started with nothing, and I progressed.

Progression is not just about getting new gear with higher numbers.

Now be a good little jaded gamer and just stop.

Me stop? I’ve been trying again and again to tell you we won’t agree on this, and if we can be done, but you aren’t listening, and keep replying. Once again, I’m done, if you are. Lets see if you reply and continue the argument.

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Cosmic Cleric

Playing through the content will get 80% to 90%

This is not accurate, at least it wasn’t for me, and I’m assuming we both play the same WoW game.

You have to grind a lot of world quests, a lot, over many days, to weeks, to get there. Times x4, for all “races”.

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Microwatt

I resubbed for maybe 2 weeks through mid-June/early-July, did the Nightborne quest line and was 12000(ish)/21000 from just doing their story line. Not much grinding at all for me.

I can’t speak as to the other requirements for allied races but that one specifically was just a lengthy quest chain, really.

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Cosmic Cleric

Going from neutral to honored is not the problem, it’s going from honored, up to revered, and then up to exalted, that’s the problem, and that’s what takes the time.

You’d have to play constantly, many hours each day, for a week or longer (earning rep takes grind time, plus it’s time gated as well, so you can only earn so much rep in a day (world quests)), to be able to get all four reps to exalted.

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Microwatt

12000/21000 is Revered.

More specifically I was at about 13500 or maybe 14000, I was just using the base Revered number since I wasn’t much higher than it.

With no grinding, just doing their story line.

I played maybe 2-3 hours every other day after work, and had 1 Sunday that I played most of the day.

I did additionally do a few world quests as I was doing their main quest and ran the withered army training 2 or 3 times, but by no means did I consider it very grindy at any point during my questing. IMO!

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Cosmic Cleric

12000/21000 is Revered.

More specifically I was at about 13500 or maybe 14000, I was just using the base Revered number since I wasn’t much higher than it.

With no grinding, just doing their story line.

I played maybe 2-3 hours every other day after work, and had 1 Sunday that I played most of the day.

I did additionally do a few world quests as I was doing their main quest and ran the withered army training 2 or 3 times, but by no means did I consider it very grindy at any point during my questing. IMO!

Not sure what you are trying to get at, but based on your previous comment …

I can’t speak as to the other requirements for allied races but that one specifically was just a lengthy quest chain, really

… Im assuming you are just speaking about obtaining Suramar rep, and not getting an allied skin/race, which is what I am speaking towards.

For me, just for rep, I was stuck at low end revered, after having done all quest lines, and then had to grind world quests endlessly, for many many days, just to get to exalted (also including daily class order hall quests for rep).

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Dominick Critelli

You really, really don’t. If you want to get ALL FOUR Of them at once, then it might take you about an hour and a half a day for a month, at most. Maybe a WEE big longer if you don’t have flying, but even then, flying doesn’t help you on Argus so it’s really only if you need Highmountain/Suramar rep, which are the easiest of the lot to do. Once you get Suramar to revered you can get almost all the way through to exalted just by doing the Insurrection questline, which you need to unlock the race anyway, and for Highmountain, you can get partway through honored just by doing the zone while you level.

I resubbed about a month ago, and actively went out of my way to hard- grind Highmountain rep which took me a few days (ironically meaningless, because as it turns out the requirements are account-bound, so if you have the necessary achievements on any character, which I did on my Worgen Druid, you don’t need to have exalted nor the quest line finished on the Horde character you use to unlock it.) I finished the first of the two Argus reps about three days ago, and I’ve only got a few days left to finish the second one, less if an emissary shows for them.

And I didn’t even do ANY Argus stuff for at least the first week and a half or so that I was back. If I had actually “optimized” my time, I’d have them both finished by now and probably would have had them finished for a good week or more, given I probably missed several emissary quests for both of them in the time it took me to get my bearings back, get Legionfall rep up so I could fly, and level a Highmountain Tauren on a new server.

Seriously, slightly over a month at most for a very minimal time investment as far as MMOs go.

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Cosmic Cleric

If you want to get ALL FOUR Of them at once, then it might take you about an hour and a half a day for a month

Ok, lets assume a 30 day month, and your scale of time needed per day is correct (I would argue its too short).

So, 45 hours, in 30 days, from start, until you can play the four races? Just so you can then level four characters with the same existing races/classes, but with different new skins, from 20/30 to 110?

Honestly don’t mean to argue with you, but you and I have very different expectations for our recreational time.

I remember a time when a new true race, or a new class, was just included with the purchase of a new expansion.

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Cosmic Cleric

But again, they are just new races. And, they need to be played from Level 1. So if getting them is a bother and grind, I would imagine that playing them from Level 1 won’t be that much fun for that person either.

If you have a new Allied race, leveling is more fun for you, because you’re doing the same leveling with something new. That’s why, in the past, some expansions were sold with a new class or a new race, and they allowed people to experience old content with a new race or class, and it made the old content more bearable.

Now you have to do this horrendous grind just to be able to get to the new race to do the leveling grind, which would be less of a leveling grind with the new Allied race. You can’t play the Allied race because of the grind wall in front of you, to be able to create one of those new races.

Finally, I think the Allied races start at level 20 or 30, and not one, if I’m remembering correctly?

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Axetwin .

Allied races start at level 20.

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John Kiser

Days to weeks is now a long grind *chuckles*

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Cosmic Cleric

Days to weeks is now a long grind *chuckles*

Literally eight hour days to forty hours, just for one to four new skins? Yeah, that’s a long grind.

I define games as something that I do to have fun, during my recreational time, not just diong work during my recreational time. If I want to just work, I can go to my real-life work, and at least make some $$$ doing work.

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John Kiser

That is not a long grind and you specifically are the one setting that pace. Again if you view that as a grind it is rather evident to me that you didn’t play many older MMORPGs if any before WoW because quite frankly you’d know that the grind was far worse. I’ve actually made a comment about you thinking the grind used to be avoidable shit and that it wasn’t as bad in old games and my friend laughed and was like “EQ was all grind”.

MMORPGs and RPGs by definition rely on grind mechanics which is why I keep repeating if you don’t like grind or it upsets you MMORPGs and RPGs are not a genre for you. Also again if grinding a little bit (and yes this is a little grind) is work to you maybe just back out of the genre or find a game relying purely on “emergent gameplay”

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Targeter

Grinds are fuuuuun.

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DG

Passing on the next expansion. First one I’ll miss.

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BDJ

Thank you.

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chriskovo .

Me Too just not buying it. The Force fed grinds are getting out of control in this game. First flying and now they hide race choices behind them? No way i hope a lot people sit out this expansion to force some changes in management.