‘Boob streamers’ and ‘boys clubs’: Twitch staffers blast sexist, racist corporate culture

One more reason we can't have nice things

    
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GI.biz has a detailed expose of Twitch’s corporate culture out today, painting a picture of ongoing and systemic racism, sexism, and abuse, both in the office and in the community. The article includes input and allegations from 16 employees, only a few of whom said they had never seen misconduct at the company. One of them, whose identity was protected by the author, put it this way:

“Twitch repeatedly swept accounts of harassment and abuse under the rug: sexual, verbal, physical abuse, and racism. And not just my own. It took place in the office. At events. In meetings and behind closed doors. It was rampant and unavoidable. We heard about it in the halls. We saw it at our desks. It was overt and part of the job.”

Another called Twitch a “boy’s club,” which ought to sound familiar as it’s the exact phrase used by victims, staff, and journalists covering Riot Games’ similar sexism and abuse scandals the last few years. Staff were accused of using the term “boob streamers” and worse to refer to the talent; work parties routinely got out of control; male staff allegedly conjured up reasons to kick female streamers off the platform; and women who reported abuse were told that if they didn’t feel safe, “they should just leave.” And that’s without even touching on Twitch’s longstanding problems with haphazard bans, moderation, and harassment from the streaming end.

“In multiple cases, women said the men they reported were promoted after their reports,” GI.biz says.

While the piece focuses mostly on sexism in and around the company, it does devote a large section to racism, which staff allege is present, if less overt: “Another employee suggested the company was less actively racist than it was tolerant of racial slurs and racist attitudes on its platform.”

Twitch representatives are quoted throughout the article; they said “many” of the allegations are “years old” and argued that the suggestion that Twitch hasn’t reacted appropriately to them “misrepresent[s] [its] culture, leadership, and values.” GI.biz acknowledged that it sought commentary on the company’s entire lifespan, both before and after Amazon’s 2014 acquisition, noting that according to its sources, Amazon’s influence and concomitant boost to professionalism “only helped so much.”

For disclosure’s sake, we note here that MassivelyOP streams through a partnered Twitch channel.

Source: GI.biz. Cheers, losludvig.
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memitim

Does any of this actually come as a surprise to anyone?

We’ve heard this story a dozen times before and it seems to me as if expecting these companies to police themselves is just naive at this point…

A lot of this stuff isn’t technically illegal it’s just immoral (large corporation engages in immoral behaviour…more news at 11) but some of it is and we aren’t generally seeing huge fines or other legal action imposed on these companies when this stuff comes out.

So it seems to me that the outrage over this stuff should actually be directed at the authorities and their lack of action on these issues, I’m sure most of you aren’t dumb enough to not understand why we don’t see such action but that doesn’t change where the real problem lies.

That said, some of it is a bit silly “Staff were accused of using the term “boob streamers” and worse to refer to the talent” It’s a bit unprofessional but not exactly a crime to call a spade a spade.

“work parties routinely got out of control” Wow I wish my work parties were this exciting…without specifics though, this literally means nothing.

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Frank White

Just because some people say it’s so doesn’t make it so. Not to say that some of these allegations aren’t true – I don’t know for sure, and neither do you – but the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Meaning that if enough people are complaining, probably there’s some truth to it, but on the other hand we all know that there’s a lot of delicate flowers out there now who think the whole world is supposed to cater to their own particular sensitivities, and we can’t count on all of the allegations being as serious as they make them out to be.

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flying_dutchman

As much as I hate to agree with you… I do.

I’ve worked for 3 Fortune 500 companies and this kind of crap happens in all of them. Sexist remarks from bosses. Racial Slurs being bandied about. Hell.. One of my bosses was sent to prison for soliciting sex from a minor….

I’ve seen people promoted for being white men.. I’ve seen people promoted for being colored women.

In fact one of my team-leads told me to my face. And I quote…. “They wont do shit to me because I’m brown and a woman.” She was promoted twice after that….

These companies aren’t monoliths. They are made up of hundreds or thousands of groups of people, and well.. most people are assholes.

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Bruno Brito

I’ll just say one thing:

People really should stop blaming women for gaming a system that was designed to screw with them in the first place. I hold nothing against Twitch streamers that used their “sexual imagery” ( jesus christ, having a cleavage now is sexual imagery, these people are horny monkeys ), as opposed to try their best to be a “conventional” streamer, and get their share of death threats, stalkers and dangerous weird idiots, all while making 70% of a man’s salary on a day job.

The entire thing directed this path as a success, and now, Twitch employees make little of the people who followed it. It’s depressively telling.

If Twitch wanna clean it’s act, starting with it’s fucking house would be a good way of setting example. But i guess the ocean will dry first before a corporation filled with men in position of power actually does change that matters instead of mere woke propaganda and compensatory policies.

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Dominique Gagnon

I’m more bothered by the people that watch streams than the streamers themselves. It’s like a clothed strip club where people tip to get their 5 seconds of glory for participating in the show. It’s a behavior that I will never understand. It’s worst than gambling addiction.

WayTooLateTV
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WayTooLateTV

See, it’s attitudes like this that I also have a problem with. Streamers are content creators. Instead of being paid a salary, they’re paid in micropayments from the people they’re delivering content to.

Y’all act like streaming isn’t hard work. It is. There’s a lot that goes into getting a production off the ground, to getting it to run smoothly, to managing a chat, growing an audience, advertising, to even editing VODs and videos later on. Respect that.

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Bruno Brito

It’s worst than gambling addiction.

Debatable.

And streaming is content creation. It has effort put into it. Yes, some of the effort catters to a more sleazy audience, but still has effort ( and again, i don’t hold against content creators to game the system when the system pratically forces them to game ). People gravitate towards content, be it streaming, video, audio, gaming, etc etc.

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Rndomuser

It’s a behavior that I will never understand.

You can’t be serious… You “will never understand” why different people pay for different form of entertainment? Why people pay for things like going to watch a sports game, or watch a talk show, or go watch a performance at local theater? Really? Do Twitch entertainers, who are absolutely no different than actors in a theater or actors in a movie or players in a sports game in terms of their function, have to work for free? Or is it somehow bad for a person who enjoys specific form of entertainment to express their appreciation for an entertainer by paying for it, regardless of the specific type of entertainment (a sports game, a theater performance or a streamer entertaining viewers through different ways)?

Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you people…

O RA
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O RA

I’m not sure why anyone buys cows anymore..

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memitim

Pretty sure he meant if you want to see titties, why on earth are you watching twitch?

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Rndomuser

if you want to see titties, why on earth are you watching twitch

Why not? It is much more convenient to, for example, switch to “18+” section on Twitch if it had one using same mobile app or from same menu if you view Twitch through browser than doing things like switching to different app or using browser to open different site to view this type of content from providers who specialize on this type of content.

Think of it as Reddit – it is much more convenient for me to quickly go from discussion about food or MMORPG games to subreddit with nudity photos, both in browser and the app. Especially since I only need to use single account to access all those sections and to make my posts in all of them.

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memitim

if it had one

But it doesn’t hence the point…

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Bruno Brito

I don’t know. I don’t try to rationalize taste. Nor do i look for streamers for sexual arousal.

But i don’t attempt to pretend my taste is better either.

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Axetwin .

The only issue I have with “boob streamers” is when they advertise their literal porn to people watching. Twitch is not an adult site, a large percentage of viewers ARE CHILDREN. And it really bothers me that noone seems to care when a woman is peddling her porn to children.

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Bruno Brito

Sorry, i don’t make the distinction between Asmongold, porn and Pewdiepie. If my choices are someone who calls people dogshit all the time and has terrible political discussions with a chat of mouthbreathers, sex and the nazi sympathizer, i would rather keep my kids off the internet, or navigate with them.

Honestly, the sex is the least offensive part here. I’m all for making Twitch having 16+ rates, tho and only verified streamers being able to stream for a kids audience ( if they have that target, like minecraft streamers ).

But, if kids are watching “offensive” streams, that’s a problem for Twitch and the parents to solve, NOT the content creators.

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Rndomuser

Twitch is not an adult site

Twitch is an entertainment site. It is made to entertain people of different ages, including adults.

As for “children might watch some streamer’s body parts” – you are aware of the fact that same kind of children might easily go and watch “PornHub” or similar site because nothing technically restricts them from doing that, right? And it should ALWAYS be a job of parents to monitor the type of content their children consume. It should never be a job of government, nor it should be a job of any corporation which provides the content. And if you, as a parent, cannot properly monitor what type of content your child consumes, you should absolutely NOT have a children.

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Frank White

Twitch might not be an adult site, in the sense of being 18+ only, but on the other hand it’s also not a “children’s site, ” hence why most Twitch streams geared toward an older audience, that contain material that might be objectionable to some, have a mature content warning. So if children are watching them, the blame falls more on the parent and adults who are supposed to be watching them. It’s the same as on Youtube and other content platforms: we don’t expect everything on there to 100% kid friendly. And just because you might have this idea that Twitch is supposed to be mainly about gaming and that gaming is mainly for minors (it’s not) doesn’t hold them to a different level of accountability.

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Rndomuser

blaming women for gaming a system

Oh, I never did and I feel genuinely sorry for people who do that in a non-ironic way. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any person using their body features to entertain other people, and I would not even mind if Twitch allowed nudity on dedicated section. For some reason they still do not allow this, the theory says they do not want to lose their advertisers by allowing more nudity.

a corporation filled with white-male idiots in position of power

That has nothing to do with the way Twitch behaves. They will gladly ban any male, female or other gender streamer of any ethnicity when that streamer will become unprofitable to keep on their platform, and the opposite is also true – they will not apply harsh punishment to streamers who are valuable to them, regardless of streamer’s gender or ethnicity. Same goes for employees. And that’s not the only kind of people it is “filled with”, I know because I have a friend who does art for them and who worked for them for long time, he has plenty of co-workers of different genders and different ethnicities and he himself is not “white”.

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Utakata

This is more of a discussion on privilege than that really of race. But if you want to talk about race, then privilege here is statistically demonstratively to be dominated by white males. And it’s this group that is where the majority of the issues of toxicity in this likely lay in this medium. So before we go trotting off on that “There’s very fine people on both sides” narrative, you should consider this.

That said, yes…those using and/or administrating Twitch should be treated with a firm and equal hand if committing any toxic related offenses, regardless of who they are. That really goes without saying. However, statistically again it’s usually the white male set. Perhaps they should learn to behave themselves first if they want to not to be included in that usual suspects narrative. Just saying.

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Ixchel Shadoweater

Right on Utakata !

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Bruno Brito

That has nothing to do with the way Twitch behaves. They will gladly ban any male, female or other gender streamer of any ethnicity when that streamer will become unprofitable to keep on their platform, and the opposite is also true – they will not apply harsh punishment to streamers who are valuable to them, regardless of streamer’s gender or ethnicity. Same goes for employees. And that’s not the only kind of people it is “filled with”, I know because I have a friend who does art for them and who worked for them for long time, he has plenty of co-workers of different genders and different ethnicities and he himself is not “white”.

You’re assuming two things i’ve not even mentioned:

1- that race makes people empathic towards others of the same race. It doesn’t. White people fuck white people all the time. Same for any other place on earth.

2- That privilege and race are the same thing. It’s a corporation, they’ll keep the bottom line. THAT idea is a perpetuation of the status quo, which is kept by powerful people. Most powerful people in this world are white men. Twitch didn’t create capitalism, but it sure as hell benefit from it.

By the way, i’m not going to doubt you have a friend, i’m highly sure you wouldn’t lie for this discussion, you’re better than that ( i’m being serious here ), but as Chris Rock put it: “Shaq is rich. The white dude that signs his checks is powerful”.

I’m highly sure that the rank and file of Twitch is diverse. Same with Riot. That changes what? Both corporations are filled with boy-club culture that ends up screwing everyone but the top echelons.

By the way, go see if diversity actually hits that upper echelon. I’ll give you a finger if at least 90% of whatever board of directors control Twitch isn’t white.

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Frank White

I think the problem that most guys, and some women, have with women streamers who show a little cleavage comes down to people’s attitudes about sex. As a society we’re obviously very much consumed with sex, but on the hand we’re also very much repressed about it, which creates a weird sort of split-personality thing. We go to certain places to see sex, go to certain places to hook up with others to have sex, and everywhere else there’s this societal expectation that we behave as if none of the rest of it exists. Out of sight, out of mind. Sexuality is okay as long as it’s boxed off and contained where we feel it belongs, and not beyond those bounds. So a guy spends an hour jerking off to porn, then goes on a Twitch stream to call a female streamer a whore because she’s showing a little cleavage. LoL, I’ll leave it to others to analyze the screwed up psychology behind that.

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Franklin Adams

Jesus Hotel Christ, the world must be ending because I’ve agreed with you twice in a week.

And you know as well as I do that they’ll virtue signal to hell and back but nothing will change there unless Amazon makes them, and while they’re still printing money for the hive mind in Seattle that won’t be happening. Amazon does not give a shit about how bad they look to little people, people and their feelings are not relevant to them. Only money is. Bezos and Co do not give a shit unless something starts costing them money, and gamers have proven adept at not forcing any poor behavior to change. We do not matter to them. We are consumers and consumers rate next to last, we’re just a step above employees in terms of a stakeholder’s importance or relevance to a publicly traded multinational corporation.

The only time shitty behavior resulting in consequences and accountability happened (like recently at Ubisoft), was because of the shareholders, the people who actually matter. And even then, in Ubisoft’s case anyway, two of their flagship properties (Ghost Recon Breakpoint and The Division 2) not had somewhat lackluster sales and there likely wouldn’t have been any accountability there either. It had nothing to do with morality or doing the right thing. It was a sacrificial offering to the Gods of the Stock Market to atone for the mortal sin of missing sales targets.

Remember what a public corporation’s sole duty is: to make a return on the investment of the shareholders. Nothing else matters. If it’s more profitable to ignore sexual assault, they will. If it’s more profitable to keep members of a leadership team that formerly used a Twitter handle projecting his insecurities about his penis size, they will.

Millennials (generally the younger ones) and Zoomers have this strange notion that business they patronize somehow has to have and believe in this weird ideological purity and doesn’t get how things really are at all. It’s not right to sexually assault someone, say racist garbage, have double standards, engage in clear nepotism, etc etc but unless and until someone who believes this have enough shares in a company to be able to dictate that the board actually do something about shitty behavior, nothing at all will change. They don’t give a flying fuck, unless there’s a huge impact on the earnings per share. Until then they’ll have Marketing and HR virtue signal and spout empty “woke” buzzwords until next hour’s scandal when they can simply choose to ignore it again.

O RA
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O RA

Here’s a good stream check. If you had the channel muted, would you let your 12 year old son watch it? (Specifically to mothers with boys.)

WayTooLateTV
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WayTooLateTV

Like, if the parent walked away? Because the TOS says you have to be 13+ to watch/use Twitch with a Parent/legal guardian 18 or older until you’re of legal age. “If you are between the ages of 13 and the age of legal majority in your jurisdiction of residence, you may only use the Twitch Services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by these Terms of Service.” If the parent is there, I’m pretty sure they can have a frank conversation about what’s on the screen, yeah? Isn’t that what parenting’s all about?

*edited for clarity

O RA
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O RA

Pedantic bullshit aside, I have no problem with cam girls or sex work. In fact, I’m betting it’s safer to be an online sex worker versus leaving a club at 2 in the morning; so it’s probably better.

I flipped over to ‘just chatting’ to see if maybe people on the thread are truly being disingenuous regarding the kind of content they’re mentioning. While I’m sure there’s more than a few girls being lumped in to these arguments undeservedly; there are in fact camgirls on twitch. Straight up. Camgirls, bro. Go look.

Now, I do think Twitch should be regulating that a bit, but why punish for viable content? They should just create an 18+ version of Twitch and cash in on that camgirl market. Then the people who are actually implying it can go ahead and do it right.

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ihatevnecks

Define “straight up camgirls.”

Girls who also work on sites like MFC? Yep. Being a girl who does camming separately on a sex site isn’t against ToS, as long as they don’t link it on their Twitch bio.

Girls who are actually giving nude shows? Nope, the only time that’s happening is in random popup streams, and that lasts the length of time it takes them to get reported and removed.

O RA
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O RA

No nude shows, just girls dancing in booty shorts.

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Arktouros

I think this has been a big source of confusion in this thread as well. We’re not just talking about a subtle wink and nod from someone playing a game in a “Katy Perry Elmo Shirt” kinda setup. Nor is there an implication that all women are “boob streamers” simply because they are women. There are just literally cams of women dancing in booty shorts or lounging around in a bathing suit in a pool kinds of setups constantly on the platform these days.

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Bruno Brito

There are just literally cams of women dancing in booty shorts or lounging around in a bathing suit in a pool kinds of setups constantly on the platform these days.

I still don’t see the issue, if Twitch allowed it, it shouldn’t be held against the content creators. They’re not hurting anyone, nor do i think they should accept whatever harassment comes from people not being balanced enough to understand that you shouldn’t be a dick to other people just because.

Honestly, i want Twitch to create Red categories. It would be way better. Also, i would like that culturally, men felt as comfortable with being pretty with their bodies as these women do. Instead of banishing them and making them a target for harassment, i honestly want this to become something that every gender can do and feel good about.

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Arktouros

It’s a common misconception to dismiss their behavior as not hurting anyone or at the very least not impacting anyone else. From the women on the platform it’s measurably having an impact on them despite not engaged in that kind of behavior as they become associated with the streamers who do participate in such behavior. That behavior also naturally incurs harassment (regardless if we think it shouldn’t) which is why places where provocative behavior occurs there’s usually also protection (IE: Security, bouncers, etc) something just not really existent on the platform.

There are already innumerable websites that cater to that kind of show and I seriously doubt Amazon wants anything to do with setting up and running that kind of business. They actually regularly ban most of the more crazy examples presented here (which keeps terms like “booby streamers” alive). As others are quick to point out when or if they get big enough it becomes more of a bad business decision to do so but even then most of those kinds of streamers rarely break the rules but instead push up against them without crossing any lines.

Ultimately the thing here is people of all genders can already feel comfortable in doing whatever they please with their bodies in appropriate locations. If you want to be the next big Cam Bro doing shirtless pushups for tips OnlyFans will be happy to have you anytime. What confounds me in this thread is this do-or-die mentality that people have this unalienable right to show their body on the Twitch platform that predominately caters towards streaming video games. Who cares they can already do all the things people are asking for, if they can’t do it on Twitch then we might as well be living in the dark ages oppressing people and burning them alive for witchcraft. The whole thing is insane.

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Bruno Brito

That behavior also naturally incurs harassment (regardless if we think it shouldn’t) which is why places where provocative behavior occurs there’s usually also protection (IE: Security, bouncers, etc) something just not really existent on the platform.

No. You’re coming from a place where people who protect themselves are responsible for that protection and not the people who commit the act. Security exists because they can stop creeps.

Ultimately the thing here is people of all genders can already feel comfortable in doing whatever they please with their bodies in appropriate locations.

Wrong. There’s still a ungodly ammount of stigma towards minorities yet, even on “proper” platforms.

What confounds me in this thread is this do-or-die mentality that people have this unalienable right to show their body on the Twitch platform that predominately caters towards streaming video games.

Except you don’t only stream videogames on Twitch. If that was the case, i would agree with you. You stream art, music, you can stream everything. If Twitch wants to be focused on videogames, then go ALL THE WAY. I’m not fond of nitpicking just for the sake of it.

And i’ll be honest here: If women jumping and boobs bouncing are reasons for bans, i can’t even begin to fathom how these people go out. Reality is: Nothing there is sexual content. Again: If we’re going to clean stuff, then clean EVERYTHING. Forbid swear language. Forbid any kind of stream that’s not gaming.

If Asmongold can make money out of being a complete asshat, why can’t his gf make money out of being hot?

Also, let’s remember what this thread is about: Corporate toxic culture, and Twitch’s own employees shittalking their moneymakers and content creators.

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Arktouros

I don’t understand at all the first thing you wrote.

Wrong. There’s still a ungodly ammount of stigma towards minorities yet, even on “proper” platforms

The word stigma, by definition, implies disgrace by association with such activities. However such disgrace would be there regardless of the platform in which they engage in such provocative behavior meaning the capabilities of them to perform on those “proper” platforms is unhindered and my statement stands. If you want to criticize the fact that there’s stigma at all go right ahead, but it has no relevance to the discussion if Twitch should be a platform for that kind of behavior.

Except you don’t only stream videogames on Twitch. If that was the case, i would agree with you. You stream art, music, you can stream everything. If Twitch wants to be focused on videogames, then go ALL THE WAY. I’m not fond of nitpicking just for the sake of it.

Except this is the very definition of nitpicking while rehashing the old “What is pornography vs what is art?” debate.

Again the problem comes down to your misrepresentation of the scenario at hand. No one is saying “Oh there’s a woman walking, boobs are bouncing, this must be a porno.” The implication that what’s being argued is anything female related is automatically sexual is entirely off base and wrong. Instead there are clear scenarios where there is clearly overt sexual behavior being done entirely for the purpose of receiving donations. I haven’t been to an art show in a while but I don’t remember any where you can tip a subject $10 and they’ll do jumping jacks for you.

It’s not just about being hot, it’s what else is going on there. If Asmond’s GF just wants to stream games or whatever non-sexual activity I say go for it. If she wants to sit there and talk in a scantily clad outfit while taking $25 tip donations to crawl around on the floor with an arch in her back then maybe take that to a platform more suited to that kind of behavior.

The Twitch HQ behavior is difficult to discuss because of the way the source article decided to do this thing. It spans multiple periods at the company under different management. None of the stories were confirmed making them entirely one sided as well. While I’m inclined to believe them what is there to really discuss? All you can really do is wag your finger at them while Amazon insists this is all in the past and it’s all been changed/handled already.

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McGuffn

I think a good rule of thumb is that if you can wear it at the Grammys you can wear it on twitch. It’s the only sensible way really.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

@

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Arktouros

As someone who has watched Twitch quite a bit over the years they really have cleaned the place up quite a bit. It’s far from spotless but I don’t think you’re ever really going to have spotless when “shock jocks” are the highest demand in entertainment.

Boob Streamers really used to be a thing. I’m talking about the ones who are lazing on a couch with 90% of the video feed on them with a tiny little game window in the corner with donation goals to “get up an exercise” wink and nod. As with the shock jocks there’s always people pushing against those boundaries (both female and male “Mr no shirt pushups” guy) it’s not really where it used to be at all.

Also while certainly some streamers are more equal than others, they’ve been cracking down over the years quite a bit. Even joking around a topic is no excuse and Twitch is more likely to side on banning first and maybe looking at it later. I’ve seen multiple streamers banned for that same wink and nod word play around “nagas” (WOW) and “nekkers” (Witcher 3). We’ve all seen big names get taken out here and there.

They’re also more emboldened now that Mixer has died entirely. Facebook isn’t something anyone wants to be associated with gaming and YouTube presents an issue because it’s a second revenue source for a lot of content creators and putting all their eggs in one basket by streaming on there is a big risk. Most of those big names mostly ended up back at Twitch which puts Twitch back on top as the defacto platform. That gives them the kind of leverage to make big plays and take out big players who go too far out of line.

As for the article and stories at Twitch proper I just dunno. I’m inclined to believe it but stating in the article you aren’t going to confirm stories or actually get things out there so they can be addressed and otherwise is pretty shady unto itself. These kinds of things should be exposed and the people responsible either for ignoring them or perpetrating them should be thrown out. Not sure how just a bunch of unsubstantiated gossip is really helpful to anyone as they can just ignore it and dismiss it as the old company.

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Castagere Shaikura

It seems like I hear this all the time. These tech companies have always been the majority of White males. And now they are being called out on their BS. This has been going on since the internet became public back in the ’90s. I have heard some really bad stories of what it’s like to work in tech and it’s just as bad as the stories about Hollywood.

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Leiloni

Blaming someone’s actions on their race or sex isn’t useful no matter who they are.

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Lonegun

Do they not have an HR department?

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TomTurtle

They do, and like most accounts about human resources in various companies, it’s apparently mainly focused on looking out for the company, not the affected employees. The article goes into a number of examples of this kind of behavior where complaints taken to HR get little to no results.

Not to say that all incidents end up that way, but seemingly enough to really be a significant problem at various points in the company’s history.

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Leiloni

Human resources at any company are there primarily to protect and for the benefit of the company, not you. Even something like employee benefits, that is seemingly all about the employee, ultimately is designed so a company can attract and keep quality talent. It’s right there in the title – “resource”. They’re a department of a company that manages that particular resource for the company.

People need to realize they have to look out for themselves. That’s the unfortunate truth. Help is better found outside the company.

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Lonegun

Protecting the company also means limiting lawsuits and bad press. I wonder if they work by the, “If there’s a problem, throw money at it.” rule.

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TomTurtle

It pairs with the problem of how many people simply want to get their foot in the door, many of which are younger and not as experienced. They run into these problems and expect HR to have their back but then get treated so poorly thus finding things out the hard way.

I’ve just been seeing various examples of this kind of behavior lately, and it frustrates me. (Not frustrated at the victims mind you, just that this kind of corporate culture is so damn prevalent.)

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Greaterdivinity

HR exists to protect the company, not the employees, sadly.

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Sorenthaz

Pretty obvious that Twitch, at least pre-Amazon, had ‘boys club’ vibes. Like most startup companies it tends to start that way and then they try to adopt heavy corporate wokeness to act as if they aren’t that way internally.

That said, Twitch has banned more than just “boob streamers” and have gone out of their way to target various male personalities who were toxic in nature or so on. We still have no clue why Dr Disrespect was permabanned as well. And boob streamers are a thing, and it’s been a regular dilemma for Twitch to tackle because there are women on Twitch who rely on their assets to attract views/subs. The ‘IRL’ or ‘Just Chatting’ sections of Twitch have become infamously known for the amount of ‘boob streamers’ who take up those sections. They’ve had to adjust their terms of service quite a bit over the years to try and better define what’s allowed clothing-wise/etc. because it does skirt the borders of the ToS quite a bit.

Either way, this seems to be how most California tech startups go. Start off as bro culture, said bro culture stays around at the high level while pretending to go woke and become a morality police.

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Jon Wax

You kids are weird

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Eugeniu INFO

Oh, boy. Here we go again…

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Utakata

…again, again, again and again again, until these idiots get it. It’s like that black board where you are made to write out a 100 times plus not to do that same stupid offense again. So yeah. No surprise here.

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Eugeniu INFO

Indeed. The sad part is after a batch will pass away, the next one will come, and all this will start from the beginning. I am nostalgic about the times when such topics were absent from the news. Those times are gone, unfortunately.

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Utakata

We’re dealing with them today because we refused to deal with it back then. So those magical days never really existed in the first place.

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Eugeniu INFO

While some allegations are indeed legit, others seem just weird. One should not complain on being called a boob streamer if he/she is, well, showing off his/her boobs. Reminds me of the old victimilogy courses (translation to English might not be accurate, but in essence it is the science about victims, as a criminology spin off), where victims were the ones provoking the crimes. If you use your boobs as part of your online image,stop complaining when someone calls you a boob streamer. That’s my personal take on this situation.

WayTooLateTV
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I play games on my stream. I also have a soothing, relaxing voice. I don’t do ASMR, I’m a game streamer. Would you call me a voice streamer?

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Eugeniu INFO

People tend to highlight elements that do not meet their moral (or ethical) definitions. Things that are expected and understood as commonly accepted at a point in time are not that often highlighted. If you have a nice voice, a pretty face, or a pleasant posture, I doubt someone will use a pun on you. If one of these will be strongly prevailing, probably some people will highlight it in a good sense. If you have some pecularities, such as an unusual voice, there will probably be some people who will highlight this, in a good or bad context. But if you would be known for regular cleavages, expect someone to associate you with them. As long as a streamer does not follow the moral standards of keeping the boobs out of the focus, he/she is not entitled to expect a moral behaviour from others.

WayTooLateTV
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So, just a bunch of misplaced outrage over so-called morals. Gotcha.

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Eugeniu INFO

Well, I would argue about it being misplaced. But it definitely refers to morals and ethics.

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Well then, tell me how, *SPECIFICALLY* in what ways, these so-called “boob streamers” hurt you, as a person watching Twitch.

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Eugeniu INFO

I will say about me personally, as the experience is probably different for each person. I believe I am more conservative when it comes to values, but I do consider that sexual organs should not be displayed to the public. These are inappropriate for the purpose of Twitch, which is streaming creative content. There are dedicated sites for those who look for boobs. Twitch is inappropriate for that, in my opinion.
There is a reason why most employers do not tolerate provocative dressings. I do not see how twitch is different, considering that, just like any other job, the streamer interacts with people who have different views on what is and is not decent.

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I come from a television background. I used to work on-air and behind the scenes both, and I could not disagree with you more. Twitch is 100% more of an entertainment platform than a “business” platform, bud, and seeing as how you completely dodged my question, I can say with confidence that these so-called “boob streamers” do not affect you negatively in any way as a twitch viewer when you have the ability to literally close the tab at your leisure.

Take your moral outrage, switch to a different stream, and stop projecting your puritanical ideals onto a platform that does not need them.

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Arktouros

@BigAngry the issue with “Boob Streamers” on a platform like Twitch is that it sets a precedent for interaction as well as is simply out of place. For example “KazooieGirl” in a recent YouTube video discussing Twitch, Streamers and Viewers commented that often times as a female streamer she gets associated with “those streamers” because of their prevalence on the platform. So to imply or say it has no impact on people on the platform isn’t really accurate. It has a measurable impact in the kind of environment and expectations that people end up having as a result regardless if they should or shouldn’t.

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Looking at the other videos that the source of that YouTube video has (“Giving out deodorant to Smash players,” “Spreading the gospel of NoFap to Adult Film Stars”) it’s REALLY making me think that the channel’s content creator is not all that concerned about the plight of women like that streamer getting asked if she’s “one of those” women streamers. I think that some of the bigger-name streamers like that are let to get away with things that other streamers don’t, not SPECIFICALLY because they’re showing skin, but specifically because they’re bringing in big money for Twitch, and as the article we’re commenting on has shown, that’s the biggest marker for a get-out-of-jail-free card with the upper Twitch brass.

I don’t see why policing these peoples’ bodies is anyone’s business. If viewers are being sh*tty about it, punish the viewers. It sounds like the viewers are being sh*tty about it.

I remember seeing a few brigades from some very disreputable sites trying to dox camgirls, and these men also tried to lump in these streamers with them. All because they were JEALOUS they were getting too much attention, and not giving them any of it back.

Look, here’s the bottom line: Television, which has many of the same rules as Twitch, has a bunch of shows on beaches in swimwear, in bedrooms with folks in lingerie, etc, and it’s free to watch, for all ages, using a rating system based on parental controls. Twitch, which is on the internet, allows hard swearing, and even more scantily claditude (those are words… in some language, I’m sure) in games being played than a lot of these complainers are “allowing” the talent playing them to wear, it’s got an age requirement of 13+ to watch, and a mature filter on top of that.

If you’re worried about kids seeing it, set parental filters so your kids don’t see it. If you don’t have kids, well, congratulations, it’s not your problem! If you’re still having heart palpitations over the sight of twitch cleavage, maybe switch to decaffeinated toothpaste while brushing.

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Arktouros

If you think undermining the video’s source undermines the experiences of the twitch streamer, KazooieGirl, you’re poorly mistaken. You specifically asked what harm comes from people streaming more “risque” content on the platform and this is it. It’s created an environment of expectation where female streamers are immediately associated with that kind of content.

No one is policing people’s bodies, what they can (and should) police is what kind of content they want on their platform. There are multiple platforms out there that offer a variety of content. If you want to be a streamer that revolves around sexual content that’s 100% okay and great, but you take it to a platform where sexual content is acceptable. Not only is it acceptable, but it’s the norm for it to be there.

There’s a stark difference from using sexuality to sell things (advertising) or even as the hook for your show (I’ll date myself and say Baywatch) and the outright sexual pandering you see often times on Twitch. Twitch shows of women in tights doing pole dances wouldn’t last 5 minutes on broadcast television. I was never a huge television watcher but memory serves that kind of stuff only ever showed up on TV at like 2am on premium cable channeling.

As others will tell you I generally don’t care too much about the welfare of children as you point out that’s their parents’ job. You simply proposed a question: What harm comes of this? and I gave you the answer. You don’t have to like the answer. You don’t have to like the source where that answer came from. But the answer remains regardless.

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Arktouros, by your own admission, you’re about 2 decades removed from standards and practices on television. There are pole dance video class paid programming infomercials similar to what you’ve mentioned that are running both at night and morning. The beachwear (including thong-type gear) and lingerie are on at 8pm in prime time on the CW, Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC, etc, on over-the-air broadcast, they’re on Soap Operas over-the-air in mid-day, hell, they’re on b-roll of travel shows on Travel Channel on basic cable in the afternoon. Just beautiful people with abs, in bikinis and speedos, huckin’ frisbees at each other and playing volleyball in the sun in between showing the best seafood restaurants on the playa.

That said, you said no one is policing people’s bodies, and then immediately said that the streamers should go to a more sexual platform instead of Twitch because of how they present their bodies.

As far as “creating an environment of expectation,” that’s, unfortunately, something for me to have to come back to as I’m starting to doze off at the keyboard here.

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Arktouros

BigAngry, actually I pointed out there was already heavily gated paid access to “risque” content on TV “2 decades removed” ago. What you completely failed to address is the fact you won’t see that on the broadcast television, as in the free TV anyone can (literally) tune into.

A scantily clad commercial is as far removed from a live broadcast stream of pole dancers in skin tight clothes who are there behaving and reacting in real time towards real dollar donations as it gets. Comparing them serves no purpose as the two are simply not comparable. However if anything making the argument that sex sells and has appeal and features prominently on TV inevitably shows the kind of effect such content has on the rest of the platform.

I’ll say it again too, no one is policing people’s bodies. I’ll just head this off at the pass and say I’m not really interested in a discussion on the semantics of the word policing. You do not have an unalienable right to show your body in any manner of your choosing. When you enter a platform, you agree to the rules of that platform. Enforcing the rules is not oppression, especially when numerous alternatives offer the freedom to show their bodies in any manner of their choosing.

What’s core to the discussion here, and in the topic in general, is the harm to the environment by allowing such bodily displays has on the platform and why it mostly is and should remain against the rules. Harm which you questioned and I succinctly answered but you continue to bring up irrelevant examples like television in response to. The harm is measurable in that those who don’t engage in such things are still associated with those who do in the same environment. It’s simply an objective fact. When you wake up you can try to downplay that fact as not as harmful as presented but it remains there regardless.

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Just movin’ the goalposts, eh?

Look, I woke up, re-read the thread, and I’m done. You and your ilk can shout into the void until you’re blue in the face about how you’re outraged over still-covered boobs, and y’all can have fun doing that.

I’m not going to validate you further in debating the idea that women (and it is women you’re talking about) should be able to wear what they want, and I’m apologetic to the women out there that I’ve engaged this far so far. The “facts and logic” crowd doesn’t deserve to be engaged with when they’re debating stuff like this.

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Eugeniu INFO

BigAngry, I wrote a reply to your post, like 10 minutes ago, but the post has vanished. Either I did something wrong, or the post was deleted. Most probably the latter, but if I am wrong, my apologies to the mods.
In essence, my point was that normal (aka expected) features, which do not breach moral or ethical standards, are usually not highlighted by the public. E.g your voice, eyes etc. Hence I doubt you will be addressed as voice streamer. If you go beyond the generally accepted moral or ethical standards, such as showing off what normally should not be in the focus (e.g. boobs), expect to be associated with it.

UPDATE: it looks like the issue with the previous post was my fault. Apologies to the mods for the rushed conclusion.

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Utakata

You know, I wouldn’t really bother with this troll, because it’s just obviously circumvents the understanding of informed consent. And let the mods clean it up instead. But it’s because the /upvote suggest that people actually believe your shit…

…so thanks for you and your “friends” justifying the indefensible in bad faith. And making this the reason why we need to go on about again, again, again and again again, because idiots clearly don’t fucking get it. Non?