Camelot Unchained talks up development of new Verdant Forest biome and RvR map

    
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Camelot Unchained talks up development of new Verdant Forest biome and RvR map

The month of November saw the devs of Camelot Unchained improving the game’s landmass quite a bit. In the latest newsletter, we get a look at the creation of the new and improved Verdant Forest biome as well as word of a new RvR map.

The new Verdant Forest not only brings some dark fantasy forest vibes to the game, but also has managed to perform better than its previous incarnation thanks to a number of new technical enhancements, so it not only looks better but runs better. The current version of this biome is considered “phase one,” while phase two will focus on some flora details and phase three will involve polish and final release to multiple islands.

On the subject of multiple islands, the same newsletter talks up work on a third RvR map known as the Veilshards, which sounds more like a final release map while the current RvR2 map is a testing ground for players and devs to work out bugs and fine-tune features. This new battleground will have its own features too, like new things for players to consider in regards to travel as there are multiple roadways that could either be safer, faster, or more beneficial. Overall, the new map is said to be designed with an eye on “enhancing PvP encounters.”

The most recent Top Tenish update has talked about the Verdant Forest and the Veilshards as well, summarizing development progress on both locations along with other work like new NPCs in battleground zones, a number of bug fixes, and continued iteration on the Dragon’s Web power grid feature among other things.

Camelot Unchained, Kickstarted in 2013 and buffered with additional investment since, came under fire in early 2020 when CSE announced that it was working on a second game using CU’s custom-built engine. CSE boss Mark Jacobs also streamed himself granting refunds to some of the game’s most outspoken detractors. The game entered what devs call the beta one phase back in 2018, with ongoing tests that at one point put over 5000 humans and bots on the battlefield simultaneously.

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Munchmeat2

I hope this is a lesson to all you people out there that keep throwing money at these Kickstarter MMOs. DON’T DO IT!!!! Let them pitch their ideas to actual investors and waste their money and if they do manage to create something playable, then just buy it then.

This MMO Kickstarter madness needs to end. We have 8 years of this madness, it needs to end.

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Kickstarter Donor
Vunak

What’s it been 6-7 years? Still no gameplay videos? Nothing but talk. Super sus, especially with a second game in development taking time away from the game people actually backed. I was on board with this project until they announced that second project. Such a stupid decision.

You expect a game to be released after 7 years, let alone have gameplay videos to go and watch. They are rivaling Square-Enix in their release schedule of games. That isn’t a good thing.

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Buddy Barlow

7 years later and they’re still talking about trees and using speedtree…

Where is the gameplay loop? There’s no loop and there isn’t gonna be any gameplay until probably late 2021 at the earliest. I just don’t see a game here at all

I’m being reasonable here, with their small team and the time it’s been taking your looking at a 10 year development cycle before you can really experience the game in a somewhat decent state. (That’s if the project doesn’t get canceled by then..pack up the engine and sell that to try to cover the cost of the game)

But what do i know.. i’m just here to watch the pony show

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Mark Jacobs

Nice edit of your original post BB. Like when you said there wasn’t any crafting in the game, and that nobody shows up for tests, that all we showed was concept art, etc.. Guess you had to edit the usual cut & paste job about us. :)

And the reason we are talking about Speedtree is simple, we made the choice to go with them versus handcrafting all of our trees which we were doing before.

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Giggilybits

Mark, get ‘er done.

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Rndomuser

…meanwhile me and other backers are continued to be treated like a “pathetic excuse of a human being” but not providing even a SINGLE WORD about refund process update anywhere on official site or forums. The refund thread in official forums is not being updated anymore since November 1st, this is a FACT that any backer can verify – November 1st is the last time Mark posted there as of the time I am making this post (right now is December 2nd 2020, the time is 3:26PM EST). After that, not a single word in it, not even “yes, I am still processing refunds this week” or “no, I was unable to process refunds this week”, posts which can be safely done from home and take less than a minute to make. Also not a single word about refunds in official Newsletter #72. And not a single word about refunds in “A December to Remember” post under “Latest News” section on official website.

Those are pure facts, very easily verifiable, which should tell every rational person what they should expect from this company.

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Bruno Brito

For the sake of consistency, i’m going to assume that Mark is only doing the refunds when he goes to his office.

Being honest with you, i think that’s a terrible idea. CU is not even an alpha project yet, so having good word of mouth is imperative. Still, he allows these mishappenings to plague his project.

Better that he just pay people and be done with it.

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Rndomuser

having good word of mouth is imperative

Yes, absolutely! Any competent, successful business owner will know that communicating with customers is always very important, even if the customers have requested refunds, because:

A) The customers who requested refunds due to being dissatisfied with product may still return later if he/she was satisfied with return/refund process and communication and give the product another try and if satisfied with another try – may continue providing income for the business.

B) If the customer is unsatisfied with product and requested a refund – the customer may still give positive feedback about a business if the refund process and related communication regarding a refund was satisfiable and customer was still treated like a human being even if business did not earn anything from that customer. Reading about this customer being satisfied with refund process may encourage other potential customers give this business a try since they will be less afraid of not receiving their money back should they also become dissatisfied with product.

Of course, CSE is not this kind of business and Mark Jacobs is not this kind of owner. Which is something every potential customer should be aware of before trying to spend any money on their product.

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Mark Jacobs

Umm, I talked about it on the stream on Monday by answering a question about it. I also respond in that topic every so often but my answer hasn’t changed since my process hasn’t changed so I didn’t respond last month.

So, how you can say that we’re not providing a single word is kinda untrue.

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Ironwu

Well, I was never able to get a refund, and now I really don’t care (which I guess was the CSE goal).

Sadly, with all the extra ‘features’ and the other game(s) impacting development of the non-game that CU has become, I really don’t care anymore.

Seven+ years is simply to long a development cycle and it now looks like CU has entered the never-to-be-finished-and-released development cycle from hell that Star Citizen is now in.

Kind of to bad, but it looks like CU will be irrelevant if and when it ever releases.

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Mark Jacobs

If you’re on the list IW, you’ll get your refund, it’s as simple as that. As per below, I’ll go into the office again this weekend and process another batch.

We’re not trying to discourage people IW, we’re really not. We ask Backers for their pledge info, put it on a spreadsheet, I then compare that to the actual data when I go info the office, as I go through the list.

As to the never-to-be-finished, the thing is that if you look at a lot of the items on the Top Tenish and newsletter, they are things that will both speed up future development of art assets for CU (FS:R doesn’t use Speedtree) and to create permanent islands/areas for the game. We wouldn’t be doing that if our plan wasn’t to release as soon as we can. :)

But, as always, time will tell.

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Bruno Brito

it now looks like CU has entered the never-to-be-finished-and-released development cycle from hell that Star Citizen is now in.

Star Citizen has an Alpha.

That’s actually a humongous difference.

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Mark Jacobs

We test almost every weekend, we have almost all of our launch classes in with lots of components, the foundations of the crafting system, 24×3 servers that almost never crash even under heavy testing load, a building system that was resulted in some great work by the Builders Brigade, performance testing on a wide range of video cards, and so much more.

That’s not nothing BB.

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Bruno Brito

That’s not nothing BB.

It isn’t. And if it makes you feel better, i have more faith on your project than on SC.

For starters, you seem actively interested in delivering a game, and doesn’t sound like a starstruck hollywoodian mediocre moviemaker who outsources almost 80% of the entire project while monetizing an alpha with concept art.

We test almost every weekend, we have almost all of our launch classes in with lots of components, the foundations of the crafting system, 24×3 servers that almost never crash even under heavy testing load, a building system that was resulted in some great work by the Builders Brigade, performance testing on a wide range of video cards, and so much more.

Ok. How many cities? How many continents and biomes? Is this an exploration game? Is it like WoW, with several zones with different biomes that you explore? Does it has factions? How many? Races? Are the classes already conceptualized with functional rotations? How is it the combat system? Weaponbased like GW2? Skillbased like WoW? Is there a leveling system? I have more questions but most elude me.

I ask nothing to really shame you. I’m just interested in how long may yet to take the game to launch. Educated guesses and all that.

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Mark Jacobs

BB,

Thanks, that’s fair. I’m not going to ignore your post because your ask isn’t unreasonable but it would take time to answer them in detail. Would you accept short answers with a lot of yes and no as well?

Mark

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Bruno Brito

Hey man, i have no horse on this race. If i get to see CU launch while i don’t rot from the inside out from overconsuption of cola, i’m happy.

I just think the faster you deal with the annoying parts of a business, the faster you get to the dreaming part ofe making a world.

But yeah, sure. I’m ok with Yeses and Noes. It’s enough to give educated guesses about timeframes.

Actually i have a good question: How akin to Warhammer Age of Reckoning is CU poised to be? Because if it’s really similar, then you kinda have the foundation already and the crafting and world building becomes relatively secondary, making the ordeal easier i guess.

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Mr Ish

Progress is progress, look forward to testing.

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Mark Jacobs

Me too. I’m hoping to be able to walk through the first part of the area myself by Friday or early next week. Additional ground clutter is going in today and the team wants me to wait till it’s in. They are really proud of what they have been doing and I can’t wait to see it, all fully decked out, myself.

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dinarian_

I see the little note at the bottom about MJ having held a refund stream. Just to be clear, while he did stream the processing of a few refunds, many people are still waiting on their refunds. I am on day 271 of waiting and I am still waiting. They haven’t even responded to my last email asking for an ETA (I sent that email in September so there has been sufficient time for a response.)

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Mark Jacobs

Actually Dinarian, I’ve processed more than a few and I didn’t hold a refund stream, I just streamed after/before I process them at times. I’ve never streamed the processing of refunds for security reasons (whoops, didn’t mean to show that screen!).

I’ll be going in again this Sunday and processing more refunds. Same as I do almost every weekend.

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dinarian_

Well, a lot of backers have been asking for an update regarding how many refunds you have processed and how many are still outstanding, so maybe you would like to provide one so that everyone can know how many is or is not a few.

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Mark Jacobs

Can’t do that Dinarian. I’ll be happy to tell our Backers once we get through February refunds though.

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dinarian_

No numbers, we are just supposed to trust you. Like we trusted you when you said we would have our refunds in ‘up to 90 days’? Or should we trust you like we did when you estimated that CU would come out in 12/2015? I guess it doesn’t matter if you give out numbers or not because even when you provide numbers they are worthless.

I notice your fancy update didn’t mention that CU is now officially 5 years late as of this month…..there wasn’t even a new 90 day plan.

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Mark Jacobs

And as usual, you go on the attack every time I engage with you, albeit as politely as I can.

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dinarian_

So that’s a yes then or a no regarding the whole you still expect people to just trust you issue?

Should we trust you like we did when you told us we would have our refunds in up to 90 days? (In my case 271 days ago)

or

Should we trust you like we did when you told us CU would come out 12/2015? (5 years late and nowhere near close.)

or

Should we trust you like we did the last half of 2019 when you secretly split the teams focus and started working on a different game without telling backers for 6 months?

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

Frankly, yes, I would say trust me because refunds are being paid, the team is working on CU, FS:R, and the engine, and we are playing/testing CU, open to all Backers almost every weekend. And, we’ve been responsive to Backer issues such as performance on AMD cards as well as gameplay issues with the last map. And in the newsletter, Kara and Chris spend a ton of time talking about what’s coming next.

Trust me or not, it’s your choice but work continues on CU and FS:R because I gave a damn about both games and my CU Backers to put a lot more of my own money into the company and just didn’t shut it down to the delays. That is the big difference Dinarian. I put my money where my mouth is and backed my team to the fullest extent possible.

Mark

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dinarian_

If you want to truly put your money where you mouth is, then do it. Pay the refunds! How soon can we expect the money to be where it belongs…in the paypal accounts of refunders? More or less than another 271 days? Nothing would make me happier than to hear that CSE has no more overdue refunds. Let’s get to putting that money where your mouth is, the sooner the better.

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Bruno Brito

She lost money, Mark. She has all the right to be pissed.

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Mark Jacobs

BB,

She hasn’t lost a cent as long as the refund is eventually paid. If I said that we were turning off refunds (as almost all KS games do after a while), that’s a different story. But even as some people on Reddit have said, and by the disappearance of names on the Forums, we are still paying refunds.

And I’ve never, ever said that people don’t have a right to be pissed. Not once, never will even when it comes to the game’s delay or even FS:R. I get people being pissed but, when the attacks turn highly personal, that’s a different story.

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dinarian_

Pointing out past incidents where your word has also been meaningless is not a highly personal attack.

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

Here we go again, same stuff again and again. Dates on a Kickstarter are not promises, it even says so on the Kickstarter.

Done with talking with you, as usual.

Mark

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dinarian_

And what about the whole refunds will be paid in up to 90 days…also not a promise? Because MOP here even reported on that promise.

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Bruno Brito

She hasn’t lost a cent as long as the refund is eventually paid.

That’s semantics. She HAS lost money. Just because she’ll see it again, doesn’t mean that money won’t make a difference on a rainy day.

when the attacks turn highly personal, that’s a different story.

Her “attack” was literally calling you on your trust, considering that’s all she has as “proof” that she’ll get her money back.

Let me make this clear. I respect you, dood. I think you have something worth building. But, and you cannot deny this, you kinda took some wrong steps down the way, and now you’re demanding that the people you led astray sit down, cool as a cucumber while you decide the best days to just pay them whenever you feel like it.

I said this one, saying it before: I were you, i would just refund the most vocal people on social media and be done with. They WILL cause real damage to your project, as much damage as being secretive about the second game has.

Godspeed, Mark. I wish you the best. But i’m also aware of how little accountability this industry has, so i’m standing for a fellow disenfranchised gamer.

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Mark Jacobs

BB,

I respect you as well, even if I disagree with some of your opinions on things other than me or CU. :)

In terms of refunding people first because they make the most noise, I won’t do that, ever. I go into the office, grabs bunches of names (in order) on the list and process them.

And in terms of hurting the company, some people have made it their mission to hurt us, and they have. Congrats to them. They cost us $$$$ in additional refunds all because we are trying to do something for both CU and FS:R. They spend so much of their time hating on me/us here, there, and everywhere even though all we have done over the last 8 months is continue to push CU forward, listen to our Backers, run lots and lots of tests, hire more people, etc. And yet, you go on Reddit and you see people saying CSE is shutting down, work wasn’t/isn’t being done on CU, I’m a crook, etc.

And if you think I’m going to reward people for, at times, lying about me, about CU, about CSE, for anti-Semitic attacks, cursing at our support, etc., that isn’t going to happen, not now, not ever.

Now, before Dinarian jumps in and says “I didn’t do those things” let me be clear that I’m not referencing her specifically, just the kind of stuff support and I have to read through in emails, what I’ve seen on Reddit, etc. If I wanted to attack Dinarian or any other person specifically, I do it directly. The people who said/wrote some of the most horrible stuff you can imagine know who they are and they have their own conscience to answer to or not.

And BB, I am holding myself accountable which I why I never blame anybody else, why I put in more money, why I am still paying refunds, why I didn’t shut refunds down before FS:R was announced even though I knew there would be some blowback, etc. and yet people are still lying about the project, my intentions, etc. I’m not perfect BB but there is nobody who’s working harder to try to make CU a success and nobody who cares more about our Backers than I do, which is why I do it.

Mark

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dinarian_

I am glad that MJ clarified that I was not part of those things he described and that I have not participated in any anti semitism because I have not and never would.

But, I want to be clear I do own my words here, there and everywhere. I am not sure if I have ever personally uttered the words MJ is a crook (MJ didn’t say that I did to be fair), but I stand behind that statement whether I said it or not.

271 days and no refund seems like awfully crooked behavior to me so even if I didn’t do that I would like to own it also please.

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

Thank you Dinarian for calling me a crook. That’s all I needed to hear.

Mark

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dinarian_

I am not sure how else to describe a 271 days (and no end anywhere in sight) refund process other than just straight up crooked. Get caught up, next weekend stream that you are completely done and prove me wrong. I would be thrilled to be wrong.

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Richard Bogart

You forgot to demand her real name and address so you can “sue” her.

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Mark Jacobs

LOL, no. We already have that info of course. That’s one of the reasons I have never said that to Dinarian. I respect the fact that she didn’t create an alt id to post here or Reddit unlike some folks who do just that.

The folks who post anonymously and say some truly terrible things, that’s a different story. My point has always (going back to Mythic) is that I always post as myself and I stand behind my words and I wish other people would do the same, including developers. And it isn’t because I would sue them but rather I think people would tone down some of the rhetoric. It would also discourage some of the most egregious stuff like people claiming that we stopped work on CU this year or that CU was losing all its top people. Both of which couldn’t be further from the truth yet certain people have said that stuff because they believe that there are no consequences for them doing so.

FYI, I haven’t yet threatened to turn our lawyers loose on anybody for what they say online. Dinarian can attest to that. We have had a lot of disagreements but she can tell you that she hasn’t received a “lawsuit threatening” letter from me nor our lawyers and I hope she, nor anyone else, ever does. Over the course of my career the only time Mythic was involved in a lawsuit with a player was with the Blacksnow gold sellers.

My comment was just that since she called me a crook, there’s no point in continuing the conversation with her, which is why I stopped. Same thing I’ve said before when people have said certain things here or on our Forums. :)

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dinarian_

I wouldn’t know anything about lawyer nastygrams. I have never threatened anyone, or lied, or done anything else that would warrant such a thing. So I have no idea what CSE does in regards to those sorts of things it doesn’t involve me.

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dinarian_

He even has my home address. It was among the demands for information that I had to submit to CSE in order to even ask for a refund…271 days ago.

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian, you know we already had that information from the original PayPal transaction. Support only asks for it to confirm that the person who is asking for the refund is the same person who made the donation. You also know, since you and I have addressed this multiple times before, that CU, like other KS games, gets all sorts of attempts to get refunds from us for non-existent accounts/pledges/etc. as well as attempts by people to get refunds that belong to other people and folks who try 2 or 3 (the record is 4) times to get the same refund again even after I send them the refund/confirmation/withdrawal info from PayPal.

And *I* do not have your home address, CSE does from your transaction/support ticket, but I don’t have it at home nor can I access it from home. And since the support person doesn’t ask for your Forum name, I couldn’t even search support emails from home for your info unless you said something like “This is Dinarian from the Forums.” :)

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dinarian_

I had to send my home address in an email to CSE in order to request my refund. It is in an email, emails can be accessed anywhere. I talked to you at the time about how incredibly creepy that is but like usual you were dismissive.

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Bruno Brito

I respect you as well, even if I disagree with some of your opinions on things other than me or CU. :)

Yeah, we can disagree. It’s fine. I do think your expertise on how this industry works is a blessing for all of us who are antagonized by the corrupt board of directors from all sides who think firing 800 people on a historic year to pretty the books to be a good move.

In terms of refunding people first because they make the most noise, I won’t do that, ever. I go into the office, grabs bunches of names (in order) on the list and process them.

Your call. You could then put a huge signpost on CU’s site and your social media: “REFUNDS WILL BE DONE ON A NAME BASIS. NO NEGOTIATIONS.”

And in terms of hurting the company, some people have made it their mission to hurt us, and they have. Congrats to them. They cost us $$$$ in additional refunds all because we are trying to do something for both CU and FS:R. They spend so much of their time hating on me/us here, there, and everywhere even though all we have done over the last 8 months is continue to push CU forward, listen to our Backers, run lots and lots of tests, hire more people, etc. And yet, you go on Reddit and you see people saying CSE is shutting down, work wasn’t/isn’t being done on CU, I’m a crook, etc.

I’m not debating personal attacks, nor am i debating wilfull haters. I leave that shit to Oleg.

What i am debating is actively former fans who have felt disenfranchised by the seeming lack of regular updates. That word of mouth will travel. Haters who are hating just for the sake of it will be called out, but there will be the people with respectful feedback that will actively hurt your project.

When they call upon the delays you have, and use that to question the efficiency of your team, that WILL give potential players pause. And you’re making a MMO, my friend. That word WILL travel.

And if you think I’m going to reward people for, at times, lying about me, about CU, about CSE, for anti-Semitic attacks, cursing at our support, etc., that isn’t going to happen, not now, not ever.

Now, before Dinarian jumps in and says “I didn’t do those things” let me be clear that I’m not referencing her specifically, just the kind of stuff support and I have to read through in emails, what I’ve seen on Reddit, etc.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. No one should.

That being said, i never said for you to reward people for anything. 1- It’s not a reward, it’s a refund. She gave you that money, she wants it back because according to her, it was money badly spent on a product that never came, and it won’t come out in a feasible time frame. Refunds are not rewards. It’s not epic loot. It’s literally a shitty situation for both parties and both should be done with it as quickly as possible.

and 2- It’s completely justified that you feed animosity towards the attacks you receive, but if Dinarian didn’t commit any against you other than call your trustworthiness in question ( which by the way, as your client, she has total right to do, specially considering you didn’t honor the timeframes set up for it ), then it’s irrelevant for the specific problem at hand.

You not liking Dinarian and her not liking you is something we all can accept, but that doesn’t mean you can just act hurt to dismiss the legitimate call she has to have her money back.

If I wanted to attack Dinarian or any other person specifically, I do it directly. The people who said/wrote some of the most horrible stuff you can imagine know who they are and they have their own conscience to answer to or not.

To be fair, you also have the issue of PR. A lead developer engaging in personal attacks will be a PR shitshow. You’re smarter than that.

Again, it’s sad that you’re going through this, and you shouldn’t, all you are making is a game, and people are stupid, but that’s not what we’re addressing here. We’re addressing customers who want their money back. That’s it.

And BB, I am holding myself accountable which I why I never blame anybody else, why I put in more money, why I am still paying refunds, why I didn’t shut refunds down before FS:R was announced even though I knew there would be some blowback, etc. and yet people are still lying about the project, my intentions, etc.

So, here’s the problem with “holding yourself accountable”: It’s self-punishment and hardly achieves anything except self-satisfaction and mobility.

The reality of the situation is: You’re a known developer, that like many others, set out to do a big project. The project sounds good, but it encountered several hiccups that delayed it for what is quite a long time. People who bought it with a specific launch date are feeling betrayed. People who discovered you were making 2 games felt betrayed. And while you can claim moral highground from the attacks and such, which you have a point, the main issue still steems from the fact that as a crowdfunded project, you pay this if you want, and that’s a huge point of contention about how unregulated the industry is.

You are on a advantageous point where if you just say “fuck it”, people will have to accept that they won’t ever see this money again, and they trusted you, wrongly.

Here’s the probiem: The fact that you hold yourself to better standards do not change that. Reality is that crowdfunding is still as untrustworthy as it gets, and all they have to confirm their refunds is your “Soy Yo, Mark” guarantee.

And your guarantee comes with a hidden game with a severe backlash, a 5y delayed project, and MOP threads that have at least 3 people expecting refunds.

That’s not good foundations for trust.

I’m not perfect BB but there is nobody who’s working harder to try to make CU a success and nobody who cares more about our Backers than I do, which is why I do it.

Nah, man. I believe you. I just think you take a really high road sometimes, and you should try a bit to put yourself on your backers and former fans shoes. Because if it’s heart-shattering for you to see people who rode your dreams with you to be this angered with this situation, imagine how it is for them, to see one of the only developers who still realize what MMOs really should be, to do the same thing that other less-credible crowdfunded projects do.

You’re better than that. I know you are.

Peace, man.