Casually Classic: In defense of a good ‘looking for group’ tool in World of Warcraft

    
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I'm sure it's a coincidence.

While World of Warcraft certainly made a number of questionable design decisions over the years, for my money one of the absolute best moves Blizzard ever did was institute the looking for dungeon tool (or LFG tool) back in Wrath of the Lich King. Players who found it too frustrating or stressful to get into dungeon groups now had a highly convenient tool that would let them queue for instances and even teleport them there when they got to the front of the line.

Casuals loved it. I loved it. But I won’t pretend that it didn’t put a burr under the saddle of purists and the hardcore community, which decried the “death of server communities” while pontificating on how great things used to be in ye olden days before such a travesty arrived.

WoW Classic gave this segment their pre-LFG system its dream world back, but in so doing proved how essential such a system is to the health of the game as a whole. Today, I’m going to defend the LFG system and explain why Blizzard should (as is rumored) be working on a functional tool for Burning Crusade Classic’s launch.

The haves and have-nots

While opponents of the LFG tool will whip out the usual litany of “random PUGs decrease socialization” and “LFG kills bonding that happens in guilds and on servers,” I see the actual issue that of establishing a pecking order between elitists with loads of time and everyone else.

The original version of World of Warcraft was built on the old model of DIKUmud that emphasized dungeon and raid progression above all else. It was built, as was EverQuest before it, to give the best stuff to those with the most time to spend on a very limited range of activities.

But as I see it, WoW then undercut its own design by opening the door to casuals by making the game far more player-friendly than many MMORPGs that came before it. Perhaps the hope was to convert that casual crowd into hardcores (which happened, to an extent) — to train them to love raiding as much as established raiding guilds and developers already did.

What I don’t think Blizzard entirely anticipated was that a good segment of these newly welcomed casuals wanted to remain casual, even as the game tried to herd them onto the rails of raid progression. So many players weren’t plugged into dedicated communities that were focused on getting raid ready, and so they were also denied regular access to the dungeons that they would otherwise have liked to run. This, then, created a game where there were haves and have nots where casuals weren’t given any reasonable route to attaining better gear.

Another path

That’s why I’ve always felt that the furor over the LFG system came strongest from the hardcores who resented accessibility and power that they already had, thanks to strong guild and raid communities, being shared with casuals as well. Ours wasn’t as fast or as powerful a path to getting better gear, but it was another path.

Getting away from a high-level historical overview, I have always felt that LFG tools make sense to all types of gamers except those who have been brainwashed by earlier MMO design. Players still have to run the content to get rewards, but with these systems, they have a much more straight-forward and convenient method of getting into groups for that content.

Honestly, I don’t see how spamming the LFG channel and pestering guildies for runs is any more or less “social,” because once you get into those groups, you ain’t going to be doing much talking anyway. But having these tools takes away so much stress and anxiety over trying to find groups, not to mention shaving off non-productive time of sitting around waiting for groups to form.

While I’m willing and have the time to run the occasional dungeon, I can count the number of actual runs I’ve done in WoW Classic on a single hand because it’s simply too annoying and time-consuming to fuss with dungeons (and I don’t really like pre-TBC dungeons anyway, but that’s another column).

It’s why I do indeed hope that #somechanges with Burning Crusade Classic does include better LFG functionality — even if we’re not going to Wrath’s dungeon tool quite yet.

Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match

There are indications that Blizzard is looking into making a better middle ground between both the pro- and anti-LFG tool mindsets with some sort of “LFG matchmaking system” in Burning Crusade Classic. This is a topic that I’m following closely, because I truly hope that we do get something far better than the wonky and mostly unused system that the original expansion brought.

Even assuming that such a system doesn’t teleport us to dungeons, that’s less of an issue with Outland, as we’re all on the same tightly packed continent anyway. I simply would like to be able to queue up with a role and have the game match me with people from my — or other — servers to form a group for a dungeon or elite task.

It’s not betraying any sort of sacrosanct original design to do this; it’s a sensible organizational tool that lets people do more playing and less chat spamming. It’d help players of all types — aspiring raiders, dedicated dungeon delvers, or the occasional munchkin — by bringing people together instead of keeping them apart.

If you can’t bear to march forward with an LFG tool, well then, the Classic Era servers will be there (and, I suspect, greatly unpopulated). But Burning Crusade was when I really started to do and enjoy dungeons in WoW, and a good LFG system should help make this a reality once more.

Stepping back into the MMO time machine of WoW Classic, Justin Olivetti offers up observations and ground-level analysis as a Gnome with a view. Casually Classic is a more laid-back look at this legacy ruleset for those of us who’ve never stepped into a raid or seen more than 200 gold to our names.
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Jonathan Hughes

I’d say at least from my perspective you have misunderstood what most people really don’t like about LFG.
While there’s an immersion issue with it, and as you said getting TP to the dungeon really doesn’t matter. I perfectly support having a system in place that shows you other people near your level looking to do “these x x x TBC” dungeons normal or heroic. While I, and I’d say most of those who liked TBC and even into WOTLK for awhile, was the concept that the people you played with, the people you found to do dungeons with, Are not NPC’s but actual people that you can meet, have fun with and chat all while doing a cool dungeon run and working together and getting better over time.
I hate the Auto Group dungeon feature and if you look at WOTLK and after that feature went in, for a few months it was fine. Then players stopped being on line as much spending less time in game or raiding, selling goods etc.
The Autogrouping feature was just another in a line of features to “streamline” everything. I like that the people I meet in a dungeon might be someone I try to recruit for my guild. I also like the fact that if some jerk acted out in a dungeon, you have a reputation on your server and I’ve seen people leave a server because of their crap attitudes.
The thing is imo, blizzard just streamlined the world out of their MMORPG. And when you do that, not only do you kill player interactions with each other, you also kill the players interaction with everyone’s backstory. By that I mean everyone exist in that 1 world, and every race and class you meet are in that world. The world is the story, the players are the events and and the dungeons and raids are the combination of those things coming together.
Now personally I like a “more interactions with fewer people” type of play. What do I mean? I’d rather have 5 10-man raids then 2 ten man and 3 20man. Because in that 10 man raid I know everyone there, I’ve done probably fifty dungeon runs with them between heroics and normals. But they streamline all the gear the grouping the raiding, the builds until they streamlined all the Character from their game. Even if every Druid healer is the same at the end of the game, it’s important to the player that he doesn’t feel exactly the same. Otherwise he’s just another NPC.

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Adam Russell

Its an irony. No one likes the lfg tool, but everyone uses it because everyone else uses it.

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traja

I think it’s best to focus on the practical consequences of these systems instead of talking about player types. The Wrath version of LFG leads to the game being about standing in a hub getting teleported to dungeons, and it takes away all control from the players. While the M+ dungeon tool in Shadowlands leads to players with a low gear score and IO score being rejected from everything.

Ideally TBC would have something that takes the best of both of those LFG tools. The inclusiveness of the Wrath tool but without the lack of control and removing the world from the World of Warcraft. I would be fine with that kind of system but I have little faith in Blizzards ability to develop it. They don’t tend to fix problems but rather replace them with new and equal problems.

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loj316

“WoW Classic gave this segment their pre-LFG system its dream world back, but in so doing proved how essential such a system is to the health of the game as a whole”

If I turned in a paper with such a bold and baseless claim as this one…

Your a Professional. You open with a bold claim you know full well will be controversial, and you don’t even pretend to back it up.
On what basis exactly has WoW Classic “PROVEN” that LFG is essential to the health of a game as a whole?
Honestly, you can’t even get away with such a baseless claim in the average comment section…

As for the rest of the article. It was kind of hard to take seriously after that open.

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Strixxx

Exactly! Classic is a success stated by Blizzard, we know this for sure since we will get TBC as well.. People want some changes to classic now after almost 2 years, but seriously LFG/LFR isn’t one of them. People are happy forming their groups through chat/friends and guilds.

I am also interested in why would classic/tbc need group finder, the healthy population and success of classic indicates that it does not lol.

But at the same time, the author of this article also praise f2p games that are heavily p2w so is it even worth arguing with him?

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Bruno Brito

But at the same time, the author of this article also praise f2p games that are heavily p2w so is it even worth arguing with him?

I didn’t find this part, can you direct me to it?

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Nathan Aldana

Hint: theres a reason a lot of us who are frustrated with wow retail also have zero interest in wow classic, and its called “the sort of people who like wow classic”

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Nathan Aldana

so your point is “I ignored his entire point about a lot of casual players being left behind in classic and TBC in favor of discreding everything they said because i dint agree with one thing:”, thereby showing yourself to be the exact sort of player who didnt give two shits about the casuals.

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dus

it’s not about “resenting the accessibility for casuals”, it’s about the impact the tool, especially when cross server, has on the population. To some degree, we can’t get that true classic experience back. The zeitgeist of gaming on the whole has shifted, you see it in all genres of gaming. Contrast the server-based shooters of old to temporary lobby shooters like COD. However it’s not for nothing. I had more conversation in my Wailing Caverns today in classic than I’ve had in the past month in retail instances. And even as someone who is socially avoidant, I’ve accidentally made connections with people who I’ve happened to get into groups with multiple times. I now reach out to those people when making a group of my own before searching in the LFG channel. I heard it said that friendship is the result of repeated incidental proximity; you get this from work, school, the gym, forming groups on your server. You do not get this from a cross server LFG tool. I’m not against a tool in general, the cross server dungeon finder was preceded by a tool that served essentially the same function as an LFG channel, but without the spam and with easier navigation. Even the custom group finder in retail is a good model, just keep it within your own server. As far as addressing accessibility, yesterday I formed a 10 man group for UBRS as a dps in under an hour. There are times that dps queues in automatic group finders are longer than that for 5 mans. If you don’t want to organize with other players toward a shared goal, I’d suggest you’re playing the wrong sort of game. MMOs should have some degree of focus on the MMO portion. If you cba to fuss with dungeons, well then, the retail servers will be there.

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wjowski

It continues to astound me that MMO players go on and on about the importance of building communities and working together while simultaneously deriding any tools that help facilitate said building and working.

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dus

The automatic cross server dungeon finder doesn’t facilitate community building at all, and facilitates working together only so much as is necessary to finish the dungeon and never see each other again. On retail groups mostly communicate one of two ways, not at all or with toxicity. That’s not the case in classic. People are friendlier and more interactive when there’s reason for it. There are notable sociological benefits to not introducing a cross-server dungeon queue.

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Holden Nagata

LFG tools facilitate socialization if people let it, but so many hardcore players are there just to spam leveling dungeons or to get their SL dailies. the players make this into a problem.

people were not inherently friendlier in classic than in retail, and I’ve had perfectly sociable LFG groups from Legion to SL.

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dus

LFG tools may facilitate socialization if that’s specifically what the players are looking for, but the system isn’t designed for it and promotes non-social behavior. A system made for speed and convenience isn’t going to promote socialization that isn’t speedy or convenient. 99% of the time in dungeon finder your group could be comprised entirely of island expedition-tier npcs and you would likely not tell the difference or care.

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Nathan Aldana

and having no system whatsoever doesnt magtically make socialization a thing. It just means people either have to do it themselves, or bounce off the game and never bother.

Y’now how many lifelong friendships and fond memoriues I have of Vanilla and TBC?

Zero. because I never found these vaunted “communities” people claimed existed.

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dus

I was never suggesting that having no system makes free friends, it just doesn’t work directly against socialization like cross server dungeon finder.

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L B

Well really you’re expecting the instanced content to forge relationships when really the community you’re looking for is based in the overworld and judged in the overworld.

If a games design is by its nature to lead to only instance content being the only content worth doing then there’s no logical argument to a lfg tool that includes mmr.

Now if there’s an overworld where your actions impact that overworld then there’s an argument for community otherwise your argument makes not sense because what difference does it make if all your doing is playing content that exists so long as you’re in it? It has no bearing on you or your character once you leave. I mean conceptually I don’t see the difference from competitive Battlefront 36 on 36 man games and the content you’re seeking to accomplish.

The biggest difference here is that those on battlefront aren’t trying to pretend that mmr destroys their game. In fact they actually don’t mind it. MMORPG players on the other hand have been conditioned to think that their instanced content is unique in the scope of video games as a whole. The problem here is they often think they exist in a world where the video game market remained in 2004-2008 instead of moving past them.

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wjowski

I’ve been playing MMOs since ye olden days. I can tell you from experience that toxic behavior was in Everquest back then just as much as it’s in WoW now. In fact if anything people behaved even worse since everyone was constantly at each others throats trying to complete open-world content.

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Adam Russell

You do know the lfg tool is optional, right?

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L B

I take it back. LFG tools aren’t the problem here. It’s the slow gravitational pull of the genre just becoming instanced content grinds for gear. One of the main issues here is that it’s hard to argue against a LFG tool when so many other games that have bigger populations use the same tools.

MOBAs still develop teams and clans even though it’s all through a MMR system. Players still form friends within games that are horde grinders because of a MMR systems. It’s high time we stop pretending modern day MMORPGs are some how different than their modern day video game counterparts . What separates MMORPGS from other games, is the massive connected overworld, but when all of the meaningful content is locked behind instances then you’re essentially just playing a lobby game with applications.

All this talk about how lfg ruins games and communities is nonsense. If that’s true then discord destroys communities too. It lets players talk to others who may not be on their server! If lfg tools are community destroying then so is raider io that lets you sort your server based off stats vs reputations.

End of the day let’s stop making things up to blame which is we’re at a point now in MMORPGs that other multiplayer games are better at what they do and at the end of the day MMORPGs will never be able to top tabletop games for creativity and actually delivering a sense of adventure. So until you’re the only player on your server who braved the mines of silent howls and not the 50,000 player to do it; you’ll just be playing a lobby game

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Strixxx

Groupfinder in literally every MMO is there for the basic content, its for those who just want a quick run and get out of the dungeon. Higher tier raids and dungeons would not work since it will place you with random people that doesn’t take class specs/classes etc into account. It works fine for content that isn’t highly tuned but not for highly tuned content. If you got randomly placed with people that fail at the smallest it would create a toxic environment. Hence why there is no solo q in ranked arenas in wow, you need to form your own group so you get placed with the setup YOU WISH FOR.

And MMORPGs cannot be compared to MOBAs in that sense, I was a diamond player in LOL and have not made any friends from that game like ever lol. That is not how it works in MMOs.

And instanced content is there so devs can balance things for a set amount of people. If you are on a server with 10000 people, it would be hard to find a challenging dungeon that is well balanced..

You talk a lot about MMR system, but I am interested. What MMO has an MMR system for PVE content? What MOBA has an MMR system for PVE content?

I have nothing against LFG tool, but it does not belong in Classic wow or TBC. It’s a gameplay feature added in WOTLK and it will come to classic then, not before.

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L B

Ever notice these conversations always boil down to players who adamantly oppose these systems always pulling out how good they are in games?

Currently I stopped playing MMORPGs because of work obligations. I was in WoW Retail but once I started seeing how the system worked I decided I’d rather focus on my real life interactions vs those over the web.

But the point still stands. There’s nothing preventing you from finding your own group if you enjoy the LFG Finder designed in Excel 2003. Just a thought MMR system is a good idea going forward as the MMORPG games seem to have become Lobby games where basically players log in only certain days/nights a week sit around then log off.

I never understand the resistance that MMORPG players have to such items. They act as if their game is something unique as if it’s 2000-2008 still. It’s not. GTA 5 has sold more copies than WoW does and it has it’s own small MMO world in it’s Multiplayer. MMORPGs are literally a 3rd person action game with more than 8 key binds. Nothing too complicated about installing a system that would rank you based off the data the system records from you playing the game. It’s really just compiling data.

Better question here is you seem awfully young. I mean according to you as a diamond LOL player you never had many friends from that game. That doesn’t disprove that there’s not players playing together consistently. I mean that’s an anecdote provided by you. It just proves the anecdote not the trend all over the rest of the game. I mean from that perspective then how do players join in team leagues together if there’s not many friends being formed?

I never advocated introducing a MMR system for Classic or TBC as the author has; I actually think you don’t need them because the overworld is more relevant in the Classic and TBC game than it is currently in retail. I’m advocating for MMR system in M+ and Raiding. Which isn’t that hard of concept to fathom. Once you realize all you’re doing is running a simulation. The game would judge you on your metrics of that simulation then the game would take your metrics and run it against other players who share the same metrics of the same simulation as you and now poof you have your group.

Just as you said you didn’t develop many friends in MOBAs the same idea can be said to those who play MMORPGs right now. One doesn’t disprove the other; in fact both systems have proven that players make relationships under one another and players also avoid players under the other. This isn’t a zero-sum game. You can have both systems implemented. But it always seems that the Blizzard Die-Hards and the Ion Superfans always want to avoid more QoL systems because for “reasons”.

I’ve just been around the block in these games for quite sometime. I remember actually being gifted Kunark as a birthday present. But if you can’t understand why someone would say that a MMORPG trying to install seasons and having a competitive aspect added that would change every season is the game trying to be something it’s not I really think you need to broaden your mind when it comes to critical concepts of what the game is because if you break it down the concept of what the game is it’s core mechanics isn’t anything that’s unique to any video game. You could literally make a game like WoW and have over 70 dungeons with over 145+ unique encounters and use the same type of gameplay mechanics and have a MMR. Again literally think about this–outside of the mechanics of how your player moves and interacts with the game there’s not much difference between how WoW plays as a concept and Vermintide 2 or Borderlands 3. If you swap out the FPS aspect of those games; make them into 3rd person games with keybinds what’s the difference? There isn’t any–you’re getting hung up on the controls as being the defining features but they’re not it’s the genre and what the game’s purpose. MMORPGs, modern day MMORPGs have become instance-dungeon crawling games.

Even the most unique aspect of MMORPGs; Raids are literally just more complex dungeon crawlers with more players. Imagine if Borderlands 3 built a mode that was designed for 20+ players. There wouldn’t be anything different then the mode in which your character operates between that and a MMORPG. I’m just pointing out this to you because I’ve been all up and down games from board games, to table top RPGs, to playing UO in ’97. MMORPGs aren’t some special snowflake genre. They had their playerbase stolen from them by MOBAs, BGs, and Survival games.

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Strixxx

I don’t agree with you, on many points. First of all I see no reason for an MMR system to be introduced for mythic PVE content. Why? Because the majoirty doesn’t run mythic+ for a rating to show off. They run it to get decent gear to proceed into raids or whatnot. Yes, you can ofc push yourself competetively in mythic+, there is even an esport scene for it. But the majority don’t care about it. And even so, you would want to form your own group not get placed by random people that could affect your rating, it’s the same in PVP arena in wow, and I personally prefer that. Most people in wow do. And LOL/DOTA/CS is not really compareable, since there are not as many aspects to take into account.. Like class build, class setups, ilvl etc etc.. For the competetive mythic+ you want to optimize your group in a way that works best.. Randomly placing you with people would not work as good as the listing tool.

We also know by just looking at most MMOs over the years, the LFG tool has only worked for easy encounters. Thats why Blizzard is providing LFR to people who does not want to communicate, who does not want to optimize their raid setup etc etc.. Heroic raiding or mythic raiding would NOT work with LFR or why doesn’t it exist.

Now as you say, you don’t even play MMOs so your opinion might would have been different if you did? Like I cannot see where you are coming from at all, seriously.

And the social aspect is vastly different in classic, people get to know you eventually and you get to know people. It’s because communication is key, if you behave rudely and someone leave your group u cannot instantly find a new player by queueing.. You need to look for player, wait for a long time for that player to get there. If you dont have a warlock you cannot summon. So being nice in classic is important, making friends is important because these instant tools are NOT THERE.

And 1 thing I hate about most f2p MMOs are that they feel as you say like lobby game, retail wow does that partly but not nearly as bad as say SWTOR or LOTRO or many other f2p mmos. The world is still there, there are world quests world bosses etc. You need to summon players to dungeons(well mythic+ /normal raids that is). So it’s not as bad.. Now classic feels a lot more like a living world and I don’t want it to turn into a lobby based cross-server mmo like many of those f2p mmos currently do.

And if you have missed it, many upcoming mmos are going back to their roots. Pantheon, Ashes of creation, New world etc.. Less lobby more sandbox.

Another thing you seem to ignore is what LFR/LFG has done to the difficulty.. If not for those systems I am 100% sure these encounters would have been more challenging. Thanks to LFG/LFR dungeons and raids has been tuned in a way to work fine with random people who does not communicate. You miss that point, that many encounters in classic/tbc and retail is simply not possible without communication.. It would end up with people entering the raid/dungeon without means to communicate via lets say Discord, which is the most common these days in MMOs. LFR/LFG is a disaster when it comes to communication, and easy content is the only thing that makes it work.

Lastly,I don’t understand what my age has to do with anything, but I am 25 years old.

If I want to play a lobby game I play CS/LOL not an MMORPG.

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L B

I don’t agree with you, on many points. First of all I see no reason for an MMR system to be introduced for mythic PVE content. Why? Because the majority doesn’t run mythic+ for a rating to show off. They run it to get decent gear to proceed into raids or whatnot.

Ya again there’s enough reason right there to have a MMR so that players of similar skill don’t need to have players who are vastly superior to them beg to group up. I just don’t understand how you can’t see that. MMR doesn’t remove player agency from who they group with, you will always have the LFG application system, all it does it gives the option for players to automate the grouping process for content that’s essentially become standardized with regards to how it plays out. I mean what is the difference if I’m ilvl 207 with a MMR that clears me for M+ that drops gear for 210-213? And me trying to convince players based off a 3rd party app to let me join their dungeon run for a specific dungeon I need for gear? The difference is simple one route basically automates that process for me so I’m not begging and the other basically is telling you to waste your time.

And before you say well run your own key; That’d be great if the key system allowed for players to pick their dungeons. That’s why this entire system that Retail has devised is a trash system designed by a sociopath. I cannot fathom how anyone who’s above the age of 30 would want to pug in that system. It’s such a massive waste of time and basically just boils down to resume building for others. It’s also not a system you’re really encouraged to run yourself because you can de-level your key, or you may get a dungeon that no one wants to run because the drops aren’t great. That’s why a MMR system fills these obvious flaws in the system. Just falling back and saying it’s working as intended is like looking at a Manager of company noticing they’re wasting resources, then saying

“Oh well it’s working as intended!”

And 1 thing I hate about most f2p MMOs are that they feel as you say like lobby game, retail wow does that partly but not nearly as bad as say SWTOR or LOTRO or many other f2p mmos.

Retail WoW does that exactly–is what you really mean. To me know what Retail WoW reminds me of? Overwatch. Why? Because before I’m in a match I want to play I have the option to fart around in 2 different modes of freeplay killing. That’s literally the same type of content that Ion is giving players when it comes to the overworld content. It’s so apparent that the WoW Devs are making content so focused on their instanced content that the content you do while you’re waiting on forming a group, or applying to a group while pugging is so mundane and offers nothing of substance in terms of rewards or power progression you might as well just sit in Oribos and wait for someone to accept an invite or wait for them to accept you. I don’t know how you think WoW Retail has more meaningful content on the Overworld than any other MMORPG out there in the Market.

Now classic feels a lot more like a living world and I don’t want it to turn into a lobby based cross-server mmo like many of those f2p mmos currently do.

Not sure why you keep bringing up Classic and TBC. I’ve clearly stated multiple times that a LFG/Finder doesn’t belong in TBC or Classic simply because the Overworld actually matters in those games and the leveling process is so significantly reduced that social interaction while leveling is greatly increased. Meanwhile over in Retail WoW leveling is not a thing that’s part of the game anymore and you’d be lucky to actually meet someone in the overworld from levels 20-50 if you’re picking old zones to level in. So again Retail WoW once again proves it’s nothing short of a Lobby game at this point as it’s basically destroyed all other aspects of the game.

But the majority don’t care about it. And even so, you would want to form your own group not get placed by random people that could affect your rating,

I find it ironic that you would state this as a diamond player LOL player yet somehow you claimed you didn’t make friends. So how did you get to diamond level and maintain your rating if you weren’t concerned about your makeup of your group? I mean wouldn’t that imply that the MMR system actually worked? I’m not sure why you think it wouldn’t here. Literally all the 3rd party add-ons developed for WoW from Parses, DPS Meters, Threat, HPS, Interrupt Meters, and even completion time for Mythic+ all come from the WoW API–which is data WoW has proprietary rights to so it’s hard to imagine how you can’t devise a system that would make your rating when Blizzard already controls all the variables necessary.

All of these concerns you raise aren’t concerns. They’re really a sign that the current game works for you. I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but if you go around the web, to other video game sites, other MMORPG sites, Reddit (not WoW’s subreddit as they ban people who criticize the game there), and sometimes even in General Discussion you’ll find people aren’t too happy with the current development of Shadowlands. They’re actually quite upset at it. Why? Because Ion and his team continually double down on these systems that don’t mean anything. Then they continually space out the time for new content releases and meanwhile they add more and more soft caps onto the lower – mid tier players; which is the vast majority of the playerbase. That’s why WoW needs to adapt. They nuked their overworld content, in favor of instanced content. Then when making that instanced content they refused to make a system that makes it easy to engage with players on that content based on how a player plays within that content. Instead they continue to let the playerbase determine who can and cannot play. Which again is a very archaic way of thinking that was once useful when you didn’t have multiple difficulties and when content did not zoom you to those 3 end game content modes.

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Strixxx

Ya again there’s enough reason right there to have a MMR so that players of similar skill don’t need to have players who are vastly superior to them beg to group up.

You want mythic+ to be some kind of ladder that places you in a bracket, the better you play the higher the mythic level? What are u smoking here dude?

So again Retail WoW once again proves it’s nothing short of a Lobby game at this point as it’s basically destroyed all other aspects of the game.

Its not a lobby game, you still need to travel the world, there are good rewards out in the world too. You cannot instant telelport to all dungeons, you need to go out and collect crafting mats etc etc.. What you suggest is to further turn the game into some of the new f2p garbage games lol! This would just make players more angry lol.. Bad solution

So how did you get to diamond level and maintain your rating if you weren’t concerned about your makeup of your group?

Because it’s a different type of game.. LOL/CS is setup for players to adjust their character quickly in each match and in the start of each match.. That’s not how wow works for harder content! And I don’t want it dumbed down in favor of some stupid MMR LFR/LFG system.. There is a reason guilds exist, its so they can form their groups and raids as they want it, there isn’t some AI who can do that in wow.. And if that would be the case, the core game would need to change in favour of this system I DONT WANT THAT.

I’m not sure if you’re aware of this but if you go around the web, to other video game sites, other MMORPG sites, Reddit (not WoW’s subreddit as they ban people who criticize the game there), and sometimes even in General Discussion you’ll find people aren’t too happy with the current development of Shadowlands.

I know, I am not very happy with SL either, why do you think I play classic and upcoming TBC? But it isn’t because the game lacks an LFG tool LOL.. Never heard this complaint before lol. LFR/LFG is despised in the classic community for a reason. Also people that don’t play wow most likely play some f2p/p2w mmo and shouldn’t be picky when it comes to wow lol..

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L B

You want mythic+ to be some kind of ladder that places you in a bracket, the better you play the higher the mythic level? What are u smoking here dude?

It’s clear you think a ladder only work in one way with regards to rewards. I mean I shouldn’t be shocked that WoW players who think retail LFG is good can’t think outside of the box.

Ladder system – yes. It determines if you’re in the appropriate skill level for your game. Does that mean you’re capped if you cannot go any higher with regards to gear? Funny I didn’t say that. Really it just means you won’t acquire gear as fast as say someone would in the diamond league. But it doesn’t hinder progress.

This whole idea that you need gear to progress is such a lie and bad joke it’s laughable. It would make sense if in the first week of the expansion m0 wasn’t taking players who were ilvl 162 and now for m0 you need ilvl180. Really the reason you have a ladder is so you’re playing content you’re good enough for and still progressing while playing with players who are on your skill level. It has the same concept of how TBC and Classic and every old MMORPG used to have with the leveling system. You progress at your own rate, and while you’re leveling you tend to find players who are progressing at the same rate as you and thus social interaction occurs. It’s not a hard concept to get–actually it’s pretty basic human psychology 101. You identify more strongly with people who go through the same issues as you. Thus having an MMR and ladder allows you to play with people on the same skill level as you and you can keep the gearing simple stupid and have valor drop on all M+ levels and all Raid tiers and you accumulate enough you can upgrade. Players who are good enough to go to M15+ no only will get gear drops according to the level but will get more valor. Not a hard concept.

The question is not what am I smoking but why are you so orthodox in your thoughts? I’m not sure who explained this to you but as stated the system in Retail right now isn’t great. WoW has less players today than it did during WoD. If the game and the system were so great what’s up with the drop?

Because it’s a different type of game.. LOL/CS is setup for players to adjust their character quickly in each match and in the start of each match..

Oh I guess I missed the part where Blizzard allows you to change specs freely at the start of every dungeon and raid. Did I miss that buff? I mean again man–Blizzard at every turn is showing you that while you think you’re right, they really want the game to be something else. You’re the only one who thinks this system is good because again it works for you.

That’s not how wow works for harder content! And I don’t want it dumbed down in favor of some stupid MMR LFR/LFG system..

I’m not sure I follow here because they dumb down the content regardless if LFG/LFR is in place or not. CN has had multiple nerfs as time has gone one. M+ has had multiple nerfs since the launch of the expansion. It seems to me that this is just another made up fallacy that you feel to be true but yet you have no evidence to prove otherwise. Also if these nerfs were to happen how does it impact you? I mean it’s clear from reading your posts that you do this content for challenge and not needing the gear to do the challenge, right? If that’s the case you’ll gear sooner as intended. Or–am I reading into this too much–it sounds like if that were to happen you would have to do the World content that you so said is so great right here:

Its not a lobby game, you still need to travel the world, there are good rewards out in the world too.

So which is it? I mean it seems like you like your content to be exclusive for a reason. You said this:

Because the majoirty doesn’t run mythic+ for a rating to show off.

Judging by your posts it’s pretty clear that you think there should be some type of showing off with M+, right? I mean I think I know why and I can bet most readers here probably know why, but I don’t think you want to admit to it why you’re arguing in circles.. So I guess World Content for the Plebes but not for me!

You cannot instant telelport to all dungeons, you need to go out and collect crafting mats etc etc..

Ya I mean the 2-5 minute flight between all of the Shadowland dungeons is really a harsh step-up from the teleport. Oh and don’t forget you do actually have a teleport. The meeting stone is the teleport. I forgot about that. Did you?

I find it funny you mention crafting. Did someone say WoW has crafting? What’s it used for again? I think you make 1 leggo from a few crafts then consumables so you can do instanced content better right? There’s really not much there after that. I mean what’s the point of blacksmithing? Leggos. which only take up 1 slot, and maybe some kind of consumable? Tailoring is 1 leggo slot item, and bags. LW 1 leggo slot item, 1 consumable, and bags. Alchemy/Enchant are useful for instanced content. One more so than the other. So again if you think WoW has a good crafting system lol it’s literally about on par with the mission table or your anima quests you get in your hall!

There is a reason guilds exist, its so they can form their groups and raids as they want it, there isn’t some AI who can do that in wow.. And if that would be the case, the core game would need to change in favour of this system I DONT WANT THAT.

The core game did change already–you just haven’t noticed because you still play with people you know. The game changed once the world content just became an empty placeholder of items that you go sit in and wait while your instance group gets formed. How can you not see that? Outside of xmogs what purpose do World Quests serve again? I mean you can upgrade your ilvl to 197. Cap at 40 Cov quest and now….wait? Meanwhile the entire guild/application system exist. And really the guild bit isn’t a system you need anymore; it just lets you skip the line if you want gear up, that’s all they’re really there for. So again I’m not sure how you think any of that plays into the game other than making things easier for you.

play classic and upcoming TBC? But it isn’t because the game lacks an LFG tool LOL.. Never heard this complaint before lol. LFR/LFG is despised in the classic community for a reason.

You keep bringing this up; not me. It’s clear at this point you want me to advocate for this but as I stated so long as Classic and TBC have the longer slower leveling process then there’s no need for a LFG tool. The only time you need the dungeonfinder and a MMR system is when TBC adopts a M+ gameplay mode which has varying difficulties, seasons attached to the content, and when they decide to make the entire leveling process be completed in about a week’s worth of play time. So I’m not sure you really get what I’m saying here.

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Strixxx

Wow isn’t for you mate.. Why are u bothering with all this text when you don’t even play the game. What you describe is basically a new game that would take more than an expansion to transit into. And by doing that you would only piss off the current player base more.. I mean, what you describe could be interesting for sure, but it isn’t wow. BIG disagree with your post, sorry.

You get to show off with mythic+, just inspect and look that the gear one is wearing. The higher you go, the better the gear.

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Bruno Brito

Its not a lobby game, you still need to travel the world, there are good rewards out in the world too. You cannot instant telelport to all dungeons, you need to go out and collect crafting mats etc etc..

Crafting in WoW hasn’t been relevant ever since Vanilla, and even then, it was polarizing. Your concept of “not a lobby” game, when the entire design of the game is to be a “10-to-25-enviromental-hazard-simulator” is pretty naive.

WoW CLASSES are designed around raiding. WoW status gains are designed around raiding. Functionality of skills are designed around raiding. Their lead dev is a former hardcore raider.

There’s a point were you need to stop fooling yourself and see the writing on the wall.

Apridise
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Apridise

I actually stopped playing because it became so hard even with a LFG channel to find a group. It was sad really because I like pugging but since I play casually, it seemed like everyone out-leveled me and I just got tired of playing by myself.

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Hareikan

The only thing I disliked about the Wrath LFG tool was that it removed consequences for people who behaved like douchebags. Any assholes/ninja-looters became pretty easily infamous on my old server, and were usually never invited for PuGs by anyone in the know.
Stuff like that kept most people atleast pretending to be civil.

It’s the same with FFXIV, it has way stricter rules when it comes to behaving, so as a result people tend to usually be civil. It was the biggest whiplash I had when I started playing, the fact that people didn’t hurl insults on sight.

That’s a cross-server issue though, not an LFG tool one. I think the tool is super handy and I definitely prefer having it over not having it.

That said, don’t shit on people for enjoying something you don’t, lmao. Brainwashed?? I don’t understand why people like the classic way of doing dungeons, but some do and I can respect that even if I can’t relate to it.

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Strixxx

Was wotlk lfg really cross server? I thought it wasn’t?

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Hareikan

Oh jeez, maybe I totally remembered it wrong! Might’ve been later then, I’m not gonna lie a few of the expansions kinda blur together at this point

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Strixxx

I think you remember this from cata, I’m pretty sure it was then cross-server LFG was added.

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styopa

The tone makes sense when you understand that MOP was absolutely, fervently in the anti classic camp before it became cool.

The narrative here from a couple of sources was very much “retail is better in every way, the only reason people want classic is nostalgia” and “nobody really wants this” and “the only reason people play vanilla private servers is because they want to play for free”.

MOP was even scornful of blizzards working with nostalrius before the grudging admission from blizzard that they’d actually started working on classic themselves.

So no, you don’t have to scratch very hard here to find the editors’ true feelings about classic, and it’s utterly unsurprising that not only are they in favor of anything that makes classic more like retail, that they still are uncomprehending of any reason/disparaging of any person that might not agree with that sensibility.

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Strixxx

I agree, they talk about the current MMOs many that I would concider dead as something that is cool and awesome. They can’t stand that a 15 year old MMO is more popular and successful than these dead games they tend to represent.

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Bruno Brito

these dead games they tend to represent.

?? What dead games?

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maydrock .

Let’s not forget the whole private server thing was a four letter word around these parts until the Hindenburgh of mmo’s happened and had to go to private servers.

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Hareikan

Though thinking about it, it’s not even really a cross-server issue is it. Its not the tool I had a problem with, just the effect it had on the social experience and that could be solved by Blizzard just… Maybe doing something about toxicity. There’s no need for the community to leash in toxic players through reputation if Blizzard just… Did something about them themselves x)