Mother of Fortnite cheater claims that her 14-year-old son is being used as a scapegoat

Last month, Fortnite developer Epic sued two alleged associates of a cheating software site as part of the studio’s hard-line approach to cheaters. Makes sense; cheating is not all right, and this approach has a chance to actually shut down some cheating. Only the mother of one of the defendants has come forward protesting Epic’s actions, stating that her 14-year-old son is being made into a scapegoat and is unfairly being targeted by this legal action.

The mother’s objections include the claims that she never gave parental consent for Fortnite’s terms and conditions, that the developers claims of profit lost on a free-to-play game are impossible to substantiate, and that her son did not help develop the cheating software but simply downloaded it as a user. Furthermore, she stated that the company released her son’s name, which is illegal under Delaware law when concerning a minor. You can draw your own conclusions about how valid her complaints are, but it may well add an extra wrinkle into the ongoing legal battle against cheating software.

Source: Kotaku
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182 Comments on "Mother of Fortnite cheater claims that her 14-year-old son is being used as a scapegoat"

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Barbara van den Berg

search list of teenage hackers jailed.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

The Know did a video on this today. They still don’t really cover the full story behind this, but do a hell of a better job than that awful Kotaku article.

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Jack Pipsam

Screw him. 14 is old enough to know not to do shit like this and apparently he was even warned beforehand.
Make a statement, I hope Epic wins.

caelinus
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caelinus

I am not a lawyer, but I have been following cases like this for a while as a kind of hobby.

I think the lawyers on the side of the kid have a far better case then Epic.

As a minor any contract he enters is not enforceable, and if they needed to enforce it they would have had to verify his age via some method. But on top of that, a Terms of Service agreements or EULAs have not classically done well in court due to how often they have unenforceable clauses and how the “agreement” is reached.

In most cases the company backs off of trying their agreements in court, because they are fairly certain their arguments will fail, and they do not want to start that ball rolling.

In the case of someone older making cheating software they would have a difficult case proving that Copyright infringement was actually done, and that it cause monetary damages. In the case of the minor they have basically an impossible case, especially if he was just a user (no copyright violation that I can imagine.) Most likely the court will just say “He broke the Service agreement, so terminate service.”

Further, if they mothers lawyers are right, Epic may actually have just tried to do something illegal by even attempting to sue him in the first place, and definitely did something illegal by releasing his name. If they can prove damages there, Epic may end up paying out in a counter suit.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

It seems like you might be going by just what’s in the Kotaku article and the mother’s letter, both of which are completely ignoring the full story behind this case.

Epic’s case doesn’t just center around the EULA on their own game. The lawsuit was filed in response to his DMCA counter-claim, made through his YouTube account. That’s the only action they’re legally allowed to take, to keep YouTube from restoring his video.

There’s nothing illegal about filing a copyright infringement lawsuit against a minor, especially when that minor initiated it by filing a counter-claim. They also never released his name. He released his name 1) on his own Twitter account, and 2) when he entered it into his DMCA counter-claim. He’s also not just a user, as the video is alleged to show him bypassing a patch they’d made to stop the cheats from working, and taunting Epic while doing so. Additionally, he was actively taking donations on stream in return for providing a link to this cheat.

Again, please don’t base your opinion of the case on the Kotaku article. They didn’t do a single bit of research.

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Veldan

Yeah. I remember what it was like to be 14 years old, I was playing online games at the time. I was perfectly capable of realizing that cheating was wrong and how it affected others, and would have never done it (even though I did have access to cheat programs because I knew people in school who had them).

Cheating is wrong and deserves punishment, repeated cheating and working around the punishments deserves a lawsuit. Regardless of age.

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Jack Pipsam

Same here, I was playing MMOs, PC FPS and Xbox LIVE at 14. Could have I cheated if I really wanted? Of course. But I didn’t because that’s a real douche thing to do.

He might be a minor, but 14 is more than old enough to know cheating is for shitheads.

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Cypher

Can you even sue a minor? I know here a minor can’t take action against someone in a civil court, surely its the same in reverse? In the UK at least…

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Schmidt.Capela

I’m not sure about the US.

Where I live you can actually sue a minor, but it would quite likely be useless; they have very little civil responsibility, which means most kinds of binding legal agreements aren’t binding to them (which is why you should always make sure the person you are dealing with is an adult, otherwise it can be impossible to recoup your loses if the kid doesn’t fulfill his part of the agreement, and the legal system here mostly treats it as justifiable loses from not doing due diligence before entering an agreement).

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Maybe the lawsuit should be changed to sue the Parents then? Or maybe there is a way to figure out some kind of criminal charges that should be filed against him instead.

Anyway the laws about suing minors and legalities of minors entering into contracts are old laws from a time before the Internet, video games and cheating software. He shouldn’t be able to get a pass on doing this stuff because he’s a minor, and I’ve love it if they figured out a way to file criminal charges against this turd somehow (he was involved in a lot more activity than simply cheating or even just showing others how to get the cheat, including doxxing and other things – people have lists and info here below in other comments if you want more info about it).

Laws may need updating in these situations, but all and anything that can be done legally either against him or his Mom should be heavily and whole heartedly pursued.

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Jon Wax

Typical casual gamer bs:

Can’t hang with the real players, gotta cheat.

Get caught cheating and banned?
Whine to mommy

So, so very typical

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Armsbend

So if you were a 14 year old and got sued by a company you’d keep it to yourself, hire a lawyer and take care of it? K.

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Tanek

May have been referring to before the actual lawsuit. It is possible, though, that the mother knew nothing about the youtube and twitter accounts, the livestreams, the money, the purchase of the cheat, the multiple bans, the DMCA, the counterclaim, etc. He could have done all of that on his own. If so, even if the suit is dropped, she probably has some work ahead of her.

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Armsbend

“she probably has some work ahead of her.”

She seems bright enough where she will take it on and probably be successful. From the article – I’m sure the kid is a little shit and she’ll have her hands mighty full.

Can’t wait until mine are teens! ;_;

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Utakata

Putting aside that some moms would defend their children even if they turn out to be monsters and/or mobsters, I am going to reserve judgement on this case until the legal action is concluded, either yay or nay.

If yay though, it could simply mean the game company better plug those loop holes before the next cheat software comes their way. As some families with a lot of income to throw around can make for troublesome headaches for these companies who are trying to keep their players clean.

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Stropp

Putting aside that some moms would defend their children even if they turn out to be monsters

Just ask Pamela

Pamela_Voorhees.jpg
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Utakata

Perhaps that wasn’t the best way to phrase that. As both parent are quite capable of such and likely far, far fewer than some. My bad. :(

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Stropp

Please don’t take that comment as critical. I was just referring to the very famous (fictional) case of Jason Vorhees. Just having a little fun there.

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Utakata

I wasn’t actually. But it did remind me that my pigtails may have over stepped themselves here. :(

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Mick the Barbarian

Some finer points about this lawsuit:

– The kid streamed videos of himself playing and cheating on fortnite, while promoting and demonstrating the cheat, and provided a link to donate and get the cheat program.
– The 14 year old kid was warned numerous times by Epic Games, and had videos and channels removed, and his fortnite account banned.
– This didn’t take, and the kid created numerous fake accounts to circumvent the ban, and also created new youtube channels to keep streaming, and kept providing links for the cheat and donations.
– The kid even went to the extent as to taunt and insult Epic in his videos and social media, and even doxxed the personal details of one of Epic’s legal team.
– In the US, a 14 year old child can enter into a contract and be responsible for the rights and damages within that contract (might vary state to state), so this might show that the EULA is binding.
– When suing someone in court, they must declare who they’re suing (although this probably protects minors)
– Plenty of precedence in the 80’s/90’s where a person who broke the EULA has been brought to court and successfully sued.
– This case might set a new precedent regarding underaged persons being bound by EULAs even when it comes into F2P games
– It’s not about how it affects other people playing the game, but also the employees of the developers who rely on their jobs to provide for themselves and their families.
– A letter from mom wouldn’t undo the repeated offences of the child, considering Epic did take numerous steps in order to control the situation, but were pushed to further action due to the child’s idiocy.

So yeah. No sympathy for that kid.

That’s to Choosk at Kotaku AU for distilling this list.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

His whole damn Twitter feed is about hacking CSGO with “undetected by VAC” cheats, Fortnite, other MP games and even websites. “Use this modded code to get free GCs.”

Additionally, he has donations set up for his Twitch/YouTube streamers, so he *was* potentially making money while doing all this. Oh, he’s also pushing tshirt sales during all this.

Yeah, real innocent heh.

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Zora

Oh my, what a weekend…better than an entire season of game of thrones or so I am told because I never watched that show.

The ingredients are there…the righteous developer showing no compromises agaisnt the wrongdoers, the corageous mum of the idiotic (and thus lovable) teenager that most non-gamers would generally look favourably upon even if he had been committing an armed robbery… wow!

On a whim, purely from a reputation/pubblicity stunt PoV I think Epic is going to get his snout bloodied. The mum-and-kid are playing their cards right and have a higher chance to gather sympathy from the general public, so Epic has to really hope it does not build into too big a case and spill over in a turf where they don’t have the crowd on their side.

/popcorn

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zeko_rena

Wow actual consciences for cheating in a video game for once!?
Let it continue please!

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Veldan

Did you mean consequences?

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Tanek

I’d think so. If the kid had a conscience none of this would have happened in the first place. :P

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Byórðæįr

So activision had to deal with this with elite. If I remember correctly they had what they thought was the few states that view things differently and when they got into court over a Delaware child issue they fought it for two years then asked the jury to toss the case if they would close out the elite information. The jury agreed to toss the case if the child´s information was deleted off the web. The person said they did not consent to the ruling and they were told by the judge that they could appeal it but that if they said in the state of Delaware or something to that extent that they could be held accountable for their child´s actions.

My guess is that people forget when they attempt to claim their child is minor committing crimes that they are then accountable for the actions of the child unless the child is tried as an adult for felonies. As to publishing the name court cases are a matter of public record, that is why so much information is barred from being entered into the court record as evidence or even spoken aloud in court. Also why cell phones are usually barred from court rooms as their is no way to verify the sounds coming from it are an actually person that can be held accountable for their actions in criminal or civic court room in the usa and other countries. So the sites mentioning the name can get in more trouble than a company listing the defendants they are pressing charges against.

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Castagere Shaikura

When it comes to the internet i’m so sick and tired of people wanting to give a minor a pass for doing something he knew was wrong. This 14 year old probably knows more about illegal software use than most people here.

Mewmew
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Mewmew

Minors are responsible for a huge amount of DDOSing and doxxing too. If anybody has been willing to give them a pass ever, it’s not something that can or should be allowed anymore. They cause a lot of damage, loss of income and other problems with their illegal activities.

I hope this cheating weiner gets a very big example made out of him and his Mom learns all the criminal activities her little prince is doing out of her house, even though she’ll probably still defend him as she tries to polish up that little turd and make him look shiny.

A lot of Parents don’t want their kids to deal with consequences and actually learn from them, and a lot of sociopaths and brats simply won’t stop doing something if there are no consequences. If she’s able to get him a pass somehow he will learn nothing and just continue to do this kind of stuff.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Based on his social media feeds, he’s known for a while yep.

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NeoWolf

Aww now he’s done he’s set his mom on you! lol

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Jerry

People talking here have no idea of the law. One poster outlined that Delaware law does not apply to the state where the developer is based. So they can post this cheater’s identity if they choose. Why are so many attacking the company but not the cheater? I believe because they have used cheats before and do not want to see someone else hammered for it. This generation is so slick, until they get yanked into court. Then all your internet meme’s won’t help you and by the way, “Get off my lawn” : )

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McGuffn

after a quick look, the law they’re citing seems to apply to identity theft and fraud. I don’t know what mom is alleging or how it would apply. It doesn’t seem clear cut.

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McGuffn

Stupid kid, demented parent(s). Looks like another outbreak of affluenza. No bodies this time though. Yet.

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Bryan Correll

From the Kotaku article:

“This particular lawsuit arose as a result of the defendant filing a DMCA counterclaim to a takedown notice on a YouTube video that exposed and promoted Fortnite Battle Royale cheats and exploits”, Epic says in a statement given to Kotaku. “Under these circumstances, .”

I’m not an expert on either copyright law or youtube takedown notices, but it seems unlikely to me that that “the law requires that we file suit or drop the claim.”

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Tanek

Probably refers to this

Once the service provider (ISP/OSP) has received a valid DMCA Counterclaim or Counter Notice they must wait 10-14 days before they re-activate or allow access to the claimed infringing content. Unless the copyright owner (complainant) files a order in court against the infringing site owner, the defendant (ISP / OSP subscriber) and demonstrates the order to the ISP/OSP.

https://www.dmca.com/FAQ/What-is-a-DMCA-Counterclaim

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Yeah, he sure as heck didn’t know what he was doing. Just an innocent 14 year old confused about how the Internet works:

Rogers has been booted from the game 14 times for violating the end user licensing agreement, Epic says, but he keeps signing up under bogus names.

On Oct. 14, Rogers posted a livestream on YouTube while he cheated on “Fortnite,” Epic claims.

The company asked YouTube to remove the posting, citing the the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. It was removed that same day, according to the complaint.

In a counter-notification responding to the takedown, Rogers wrote: “i did noting rong this strike is all wrong I was modding in a video game that isn’t against youtubes TOS Why was i striked ‼!,” according to the complaint.

Rogers posted another video entitled “Epicgames Falsely striked my channel,” the complaint says.

In that video, Epic claims, Rogers “admitted to ‘hacking in Fortnite,’ incorrectly claimed that his hacking is permitted under the doctrine of fair use, and publicly disclosed the email address of one of Epic’s in-house lawyers, in violation of YouTube’s community guidelines.”

https://www.law360.com/articles/977334/epic-games-says-nobody-likes-a-cheater-sues-youtuber

My bolding.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

I posted this further down, but this is also an important piece that the mom completely glossed over.

Re: his YT counterclaim:

“Please note that when we forward the counter notice, it will include the full text of the counter notice, including any personal information you provide. The claimant may use this information to file a lawsuit against you in order to keep the content from being restored to YouTube.

By submitting a counter notification, you consent to having your information revealed in this way. We will not forward the counter notification to any party other than the original claimant.

Counter notifications must be submitted by the video’s original uploader or an agent authorized to act on their behalf, such as an attorney. To submit a counter notification, please use our webform. ”

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2807684?hl=en

The kid fully agreed to have himself named in a legal suit from Epic.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

This will get thrown out. Epic will be lucky if they don’t have to pay out for this. Epic is absolutely using this kid as a scapegoat and no judge is going to rule against a child so that Epic can prove a point.

“Furthermore, Epic Games Inc. has released the defendants name publicly, therefore allowing news articles and different online publications to obtain his name and in turn release additional information. Referencing State of Delaware House Bill No. 64 it is illegal to release under age individuals’ personal information by any agencies.”

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Robert Mann

As noted other places here, Delaware state law does not apply to a federal violation filed in North Carolina.

Who will be lucky is the mother, if Epic doesn’t go after her for her failures with regard to supervision of her child. Much less aiding in the crimes committed at certain points.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

I haven’t seen the official complaint filed by Epic on this particular defendant so I don’t know whether or not he lives in Delaware. I’m assuming that he does until I learn otherwise. If that’s the case, it doesn’t matter where the complaint was filed, Epic would be violating Delaware law. The courts can figure that out but if there’s no federal law that would supersede the state law (or no such federal law exists) then the state level law will most likely be used, again assuming that he resides in Delaware.

Second, cheating in a video game isn’t against the law, Epic can’t “go after her for her failures with regard to supervision of her child” (as they have no grounds on which to do so), and she can’t be called as “aiding in crimes” as there was no crime to aid in. The site he got his mods from, Addicted Cheats, accepts payments via PayPal and you only need a bank account to use that and it’s not unheard of (it’s common, in fact) for minors to have restricted bank accounts. Mom probably had no idea. Again, for the kid to have broken any laws, he’d have to have modified the code in the game via injection (that’s how it’s worded in Epics own complaints) and the kid frankly didn’t do this. He can justifiably argue he had no idea how the mods worked programmatically. Epic should be going after the creators and distributors, who are actually profiting from this, rather than the users.

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Robert Mann

Doesn’t matter if he lives in Delaware, as it’s a federal level case. Charges can be filed at any federal level court. The location of filing then determines the local laws applying to the entity filing charges. That’s a federal rule, so even if Delaware said anything it would be overruled. *That’s ignoring the point that a counter-DMCA includes requirements for the person issuing it to be named, and for a court case to stop the counter claim from proceeding to name that person.*

Further, the lawsuit is not on cheating per se (they banned him repeatedly for it, but the lawsuit is for copyright infringements in the support of the development of software from Addicted Cheats… which he directly advertised for in the videos that he counter-filed against DMCA on.) Doesn’t matter if he knows how they worked, he actively solicited for copyright infringement. Doesn’t matter if mom had no idea of his payment there, she’s responsible to ensure her child doesn’t go off and do things that are criminal to the best of her ability (which would include looking at things like posted videos on YouTube.)

There’s so many reasons why that defense won’t and can’t logically work that it’s like holding up a maple leaf and expecting it to stop a train.

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McGuffn

Any agencies doesn’t include a private company?

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

By definition an agency is “a business or organization established to provide a particular service”. Legal definitions of certain terms are sometimes more gray than standard literal definitions but that gray area is more often used to include than exclude when such a legal definition isn’t clear. Given the circumstances, even if you don’t consider Epic Games LLC as an “agency” that would fall under this bill, when it goes to court, I have a hard time believing that it won’t lose the argument when it comes up regarding whether or not a “private company” is legally allowed to publicly release the personal information of a minor without the express consent of the guardian.

Side note, Epic Games is owned by Tencent, which is a public corporation. I don’t think being a subsidiary will hide them and Tencent could also get dragged into this. If they are smart, they drop this one ASAP and avoid the bad publicity storm that’s about to hit them.

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McGuffn

Could you post the law you’re getting this from? What I found was dealing with minors and credit agencies, where the term is actually useful, and doesn’t have anything to do with a videogame company. The mother refers to a house bill instead of a section of law; there are many house bills, and some aren’t even passed into law.

http://delcode.delaware.gov/sessionlaws/ga147/chp043.pdf
http://delcode.delaware.gov/title6/c022/index.shtml

Based on this I don’t think she knows what she’s talking about, but there could be some other house bill that is more germane to her problem.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

I’m going on what she filed in her complaint. If she doesn’t know what she’s talking about, the lawyers and judges can figure that out. I’m not sifting through the confusing mess that is the way these states word their bills and such to support an discussion in a comments section of a blog.

I do hope that she’s right though because I stand behind the idea of the law that she’s supposedly referencing. When it comes to minors, they should be afforded additional protections. I don’t agree with Epic suing anyone over the use of cheating mods (they should go after the creators, at least in a case like this where the cheats are being distributed publicly and profited from) and I especially don’t agree with them suing a 14 year old child for this because they wanted to set an example. I fully believe they were wholly unaware of his age when they did this, which makes their legal team negligent, and it’s even worse because they published his personal information. If there’s one thing we know about the internet, it’s a nasty place. I hope it doesn’t happen but I can imagine the kind of harassment he could receive because people (like many in these comments) want to take their anger out on this kid who’s gonna end up as the face of cheating in video games. For a 14 year old, that’s too much. Again, this all hasn’t happened and I really hope it doesn’t but many laws in place to protect minors are in place for that reason, to protect them from stuff like this. When you’re that young, even if you know what you’re doing is wrong, you’re too stupid to fully understand the ramifications. This is why there’s a legal age for smoking, drinking, and sex and 14 is too young for all of those.

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McGuffn

So if 14 is too young where is mom’s parental involvement?

Based on the complaint and watching his youtube video from the end of last month I hope mom loses her house and Epic Games provides guided tours to people who pledge higher tiers of its next kickstarter.

“Here’s the room where the cheater recorded video admitting to using the cheat. It really made the case for us. Moving on to the guest bathroom….”

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Robert Mann

Liked on the point of pursuit, I don’t want them made homeless. They should certainly be involved with getting the kid help at their own expense, though, at a minimum.

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Soy

I would usually agree with the minor being protected in 99% of cases, but not this one. The child was making putting himself all over social media while advocating the use of cheats that broke the EULA.

He wanted attention. Now he’s getting it.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

I still don’t get where this claim of Epic “publishing his name” is coming from?

They filed a lawsuit using the information he provided in his YouTube counter-claim, which they were required to do within 10 days of him filing that counter-claim. They didn’t just plaster his name somewhere on social media. He did that himself through his YouTube, Twitch, and Twitter accounts.

Hell, he’s still doing it; if his mother was so damn concerned about his identity, why hasn’t she gotten his Twitter account shut down? The lawsuit was filed over a month ago, he made a video on it on October 29th, *still* advertising the cheating sites, and still tweeting about and running his CSGO hack live streams.

Richard de Leon III
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Richard de Leon III

Ill have to side with Epic on this one. The only cheating I would be ok with is on offline only games. Mother has to take responsibility for raising an asshole.

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Armsbend

Not by law she doesn’t. You are basing your feelings on empathy and opinion on child-rearing instead of the law.

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McGuffn

Parental liability. And her complaint isn’t doing her any favors on that front.

Richard de Leon III
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Richard de Leon III

true, not by law, but I’ll still side with whats right in this particular case.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

Cheating in video games isn’t against the law. While I side with Epic morally, they crossed the line when they tried to sue a 14 year old. Children do stupid things and in this case it was just a kid trying to have fun, even if that “fun” isn’t right. He needs to grow up (and hopefully he will) but suing him isn’t right.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

In this case it was a teenager – a high schooler – who was banned from the game *14 times* for “trying to have fun.” He may not be a fully functioning adult, but he’s not a kid. He’s well aware of what his actions were.

He continued to sign up under new accounts, since the PUBG side is free. He’s a high schooler; he knows what cheating is, and knows what cheating in a multiplayer environment is. He knows what cheating, in a multiplayer environment, *while livestreaming*, is.

The fact he even went as far as paying some shady company for this “fun” further proves he was well aware of his actions, and should suffer for them. Even if he’s not successfully sued, I’d love to see his ass have to go through court for all of this.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

I don’t disagree with you but “suing” him is not the way to go. What they are trying to do is make an example out of him. You don’t do that to a 14 year old and the reasoning is beside the point that it’s his parents that would have to pay for anything related to the lawsuit (since he clearly can’t) and they had nothing to do with it. If you want to make an example out of someone, do it to the people who create and distribute this crap. Sue THEM into oblivion. You’re not going to stop cheating by punishing a single 14 year old child, especially since this lawsuit will most likely ultimately fail. Others will continue to do it in other games and the people creating this crap will continue to profit from it.

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Robert Mann

Never happen. Sue them, they dissolve, they make another group to do the same thing…

On the other hand, you also have a point that we shouldn’t be making this into something where the family is ruined and the kid is a criminal for life.

The lawsuit is required to enforce the DCMA claim. Ideally they will try to get the kid (and his at best clueless mom) some help for his problems with this, rather than make life hell on the family.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

For one, a lawsuit is something Epic were required to do to keep up their DMCA claim on his YouTube video(s), due to his choice to (falsely) counter-claim it. That’s YouTube policy. I haven’t read the text of their suit, but I think it’s a fairly safe assumption that the DMCA claim is part of their suit.

Secondly, we’re assuming that he doesn’t have the money himself just because he’s 14. He has his own PayPal account, which he used to buy $100+ cheats for FortNite (or make them himself, that’s still up for debate). If you take a look at his Twitter feed, you’ll see he’s also been streaming himself using “undetectable CSGO hacks.” He’s also accepting donations during these streams, and selling tshirts/other merchandise. He’s also advertised “modded codes” to get “free gift cards” from various websites going back years.

While I’m sure he doesn’t have the money for a lawsuit, the kid’s probably not broke.

Edit: saved too early oops.

Epic should go after the people making the cheats, assuming they even *can*, as these groups are often located internationally. That’s also assuming their claim of him being one of the actual cheat developers isn’t accurate. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t drag this kid through the (court) mud, even if they ultimately drop the financial loss portion of the lawsuit.

Mitzruti
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Mitzruti

what they are trying to do is get his videos of hacking removed from youtube. permanently.
because he filed a counterclaim to their takedown, they are required to pursue legal action to ensure it is upheld.

if his parents don’t want to foot the legal bill they can just say “okay fine let the videos be removed”. they’d only have to pay to fight it if they felt that cheating, and promoting cheating, is not wrong.

his being a “child” changes nothing.

Richard de Leon III
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Richard de Leon III

Cheating specifically isnt, distrupting an environment should be. Kid needs to learn a lesson, im old fashioned that way.

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Soy

Seems he was given multiple opportunities to get the point. What recourse was left after all others had been exhausted?

noberght
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noberght

Wow! way to teach your offspring that cheating is ok… as long as you don’t get caught.
Even then it was not your fault.

” I don’t want to live on this planet anymore. “

what-4
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what-4

Cheating IS fine, so long as you dont get caught though. Dont you pay attention to all major sports?

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Robert Mann

No, I stopped watching (most of) them because the officiating didn’t deal with the obvious cheating, not to mention the favoritism in the officiating itself.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

Or politics? Law? Banking?

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Robert Mann

Politics, monetary issues/banking, and law? Well, I have been working with a growing number of people opposed to the unethical and outrageous behavior involved in each, so it’s noted… but that also means they all have been caught and are not fine.

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Armsbend

You have no idea what she is teaching the kid. She may have him tied to a bed belting him across the back for this infraction right now.

What she doesn’t appreciate is Epic posting a kid’s name on the internet for gamer wackos to enact their own freak justice – which they do on a near constant basis.

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Jack Pipsam

He put his own name online as do most people, he was very public about all of this.

Do the crime, do the time. If he doesn’t get time, so let people troll him.

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McGuffn

“for gamer wackos to enact their own freak justice”

That’s what her kid did.

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Armsbend

Which is why they aren’t treated like adults until they commit a capital crime.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Can somebody post the link where Epic disclosed his name on their site? The only thing I’m able to find are news articles about the complaint, which, because he’s named in the complaint, contain his name.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

As far as I’m aware, they didn’t. Like you said, he was named in a complaint related to his account and his YouTube channel where he was posting this stuff; they *have* to name him, they can’t just go by the YT channel name or the 14 different names he used for Fortnite accounts.

Furthermore, the kid’s name IS on the YouTube channel. I believe he removed it from the ‘about’ section, but he still links his social media, which is under his full first and last name. So yeah…. the name was already out there well before Epic took any action. If his mother cared so much, maybe she should have asked him not to make a Twitter account using his real name as his @.

noberght
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noberght

kind of like your creepy post?

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Kevin Smith

The kid sued first, that is what a lot of people are missing. It was either him or his mother that sued Epic for trying to have the videos which are against youtube policy in the first place from being taken down. The kid got a ban from the game for cheating which would have been the end of it. His response was to upload videos of it, and give links to the cheat site. Now the mother wants to claim that her child basically didn’t do anything wrong and that she is not responsible. She accepted responsibility when the kid paid for the cheat which was a subscription based cheat with the parents credit card because a 14 year old does not qualify to have a credit card in their name only. While it isn’t socially acceptable to sue under age person at this point I can agree with it.

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Tanek

Thank you for the info. I am still looking into the timeline so I can get a full picture, but something seemed a bit off when it was just the surface layer of “Epic sues 14-year-old kid”.

I’m not saying they should continue the lawsuit, but I’m certainly not giving out any ‘mother of the year’ awards here, either.

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Chris Brown-DeMoreno

The kid didn’t “sue”, he just filed a complaint with YouTube. That’s a very different thing.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

yeah disputing a DMCA take down isn’t suing.

and looking at it this lawsuit against him isn’t persuant to his DMCA claim disputes either. they are suing him on other grounds.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

The lawsuit was likely necessary for the DMCA takedown, per YouTube’s own policy. If someone files a countersuit, which he did (under his own name FYI), then YT gives the original claimant 10 business days to prove they’re taking legal action or the video will be restored. Even if the lawsuit isn’t explicitly for a copyright notice, just naming that as part of the claim would be enough for YT to keep the video down.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

from what’s being reported the copyright infringement part of the suit has nothing to do with his viddeos and everything to do with his use of the cheat app infringing their code copyright or some shit.

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Robert Mann

Directly from his advertising donations to, and support of, the cheating app. Along with showing ways to beat security measures. Which, like it or not, is participating in the development thereof.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

lol ok

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

It’s both. The specific video they removed was the one where he explicitly advertised his workaround to their patch fixing the hole this particular program used. That’s explicit evidence of him showing and verbally stating an infringement against the copyright code, and creating a derivative work of it. Part of their complaint states the following:

“In using cheat software to modify the game’s code in this way,” the complaints read, “Defendant and other cheaters who use the cheat create unauthorised derivative works based on Fortnite in violation of the Copyright Act.”

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Robert Mann

You let him play lady, so everything except the name release and develop/use is void. That’s HER fault.

Epic is based in North Carolina. NC does not have the same rules about not naming minors. There’s no federal law. You cannot apply your state laws to everyone in other states, thus denying that as a counter-suit.

In fact, this entire thing seems to open up a negligence and culpability lawsuit against her, since she failed to adequately care for and supervise her child…

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Tanek

I just read that a DMCA counterclaim was filed when Epic was trying to take down videos from the kid where the cheats were being advertised? If so, who filed the counterclaim? Was it the kid or the mom? And, if the kid, can he do that at his age, or would that need a parent/guardian as well?

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Robert Mann

Either way, his name was used, so his name was attached to all the legal stuff involved at that point.

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Melissa McDonald

Sounds like she’s got a case to me. Releasing his name will be the paddle for their hineys. The rest is tort stuff – that was illegal.

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Jack Pipsam

He put his own name online.

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A Dad Supreme

I keep seeing people say that, but that assumes the company released his name AFTER they knew he was a minor, which seems highly unlikely.

If he lies and says he’s 18 when he’s 14, that isn’t on the company when they release the name of someone who claims they are of legal age. It would be different if they knew he wasn’t, then released his name anyway in an attempt to get the mother to pay something or win a “sympathy” argument.

I’m still amazed at how many people keep automatically assuming that they are suing a 14 year old (when they know they can’t) and released his name (when they know it’s against the law).

You guys don’t really believe this, do you?

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Schmidt.Capela

I believe not bothering to even find if the person you are suing is of legal age is one heck of a failure to do due diligence. So, from my point of view, it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation; if Epic didn’t know their target was a 14 years old kid they should be penalized for bringing up a frivolous lawsuit due to a failure that is exclusively of their making, and if they did know then they should be sued for intentionally releasing the kid’s name.

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Robert Mann

He put forth a counter-DCMA in his name. They named him in the suit based on that interaction. Expect them to update to his mother’s name after this, if they continue to pursue it. It’s pretty logical how it played out, excepting the ideas she has that somehow the behavior of her and her son is acceptable here.

If she had noted that he did something wrong, I would expect Epic to back off. Her basically just firing back instead? I’m all for them to pursue it on her.

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Tanek

Do you happen to know whether a 14-year-old can file the counterclaim without a parent or legal guardian signing on as an adult? If his mother helped with that, she is part of it. If she did not, then it is yet another thing she did not know her kid was doing.

Also, if your child has a youtube channel and is putting content online, wouldn’t you want to know what that content was? Either she knew and was ok with him playing the game (implied consent for the terms of service?) or she was so unaware of what was going on, the kid was even uploading content without her knowledge.

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Robert Mann

Agreed she needed to know one way or the other. Either she was negligent and thus liable, or she was complicit and thus liable.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Read this link, should answer your question:

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2807684?hl=en

Specifically:

“Please note that when we forward the counter notice, it will include the full text of the counter notice, including any personal information you provide. The claimant may use this information to file a lawsuit against you in order to keep the content from being restored to YouTube.

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traja

I don’t know nearly enough about US law to comment on this from that perspective. But it seems to me that suing a 14 old for streaming while he cheats in a video game is maybe taking things a bit far.
Does targeting kids really help the cause of fighting against cheaters? At least based on observing myself it seems to instead make the cheating side appear more sympathetic and the game company the villain.

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Kevin Smith

They didn’t target the kid, the kid or his parent targeting Epic who in return fired back. The kid got a ban an that would have been the end of it right there. Then he decided to retaliate by posting videos of the cheat and where to get it, which epic had asked youtube to remove when they found out. So tell me who is more in the wrong in this case a company defending itself from someone who was actively seeking to hurt the company or a kid who was cheating and then trying to ruin the game for others by pushing a cheat.

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traja

They are targeting a 14 year old with legal action. I didn’t think that needed to be specified since it seemed obvious to me.

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Robert Mann

Kid pulled things that are worse toward people involved outside of the game, seems like they are just punching a raging asshat in the nose. Which is the only thing that fixes raging asshatism.

That said, I’d bet their suit updates to naming her, since they now have a legal parent/guardian involved.

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Bonnenuit

Please post link to source.

Of any instance at all in which a punch to the nose (literal or figurative), or anything else for that matter, actually fixed raging asshattery.

Not that I’m against anyone trying, mind you! I just think that raging asshattery will get fixed shortly after the world begins to live completely peacefully. :)

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Robert Mann

It doesn’t fix it permanently for everyone, agreed. Also agreed there will always be new raging asshats.

However, it certainly does stop it for at least a while from the raging asshat getting punched, and it certainly does ensure that raging asshats think twice if they don’t want to get nose punched.

It works to an extent. There also need to be avenues for reform, and helping people dealing with their issues… but without that nose punch there’s really not much for a reason for them to want to get that help.

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Bryan Turner

Well the counter law suit settlements going to pay for this kids college through his doctorate degree, go Mom!

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A Dad Supreme

What counter law suit, lol? What could they sue the company for?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

for naming the kid illegally.

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Robert Mann

Wrong state, laws in the state Epic is suing from are different. Can’t apply laws from your location to the suing location…

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

also when you do business across state lines you still have to respect the laws of all the states you do business with.

that’s why even tho amazon is located wherever officially texas residents have to pay state sales tax on amazon products. becuase they have to observe the laws in teh states they do business.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i don’t think NC courts have jurisdiction over people in delaware.

this came up recently with the guy who sued valve over lockboxes/gambling addiction because he sued in his home state and not washington where valve are located. judge threw it out because he didn’t have jurisdiction.

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Robert Mann

Maybe, but both were filed in North Carolina, and thus the local laws for the filing would apply. The difference is they are filing on copyright violations, which is federal, and thus the jurisdiction is the U.S.

Which means a federal court, so jurisdiction is the U.S. Not quite the same as the addiction case, where it was filed in a state level court.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

This is correct. Most complaints begin with several paragraphs justifying the complaint being filed in the correct jurisdiction, either by residency or place of business.

Many corporations in the United States are incorporated in Delaware because Delaware has the most beneficial corporate laws.

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A Dad Supreme

for naming the kid illegally.

Child endangerment by posting a 14 year old’s name for one.

The child lied and said they were 18. The company takes the information from the TOS, checks to see if the person claims they are “18” (or says they were) and then releases the name. They don’t check to see if the person is underage afterwards.

I highly doubt the company released the name of a 14 year old AFTER the mom told them he lied and was really 14 years old. You guys have you use your common sense a little here.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

pretty sure i’ve never seen a EULA for any f2p game that says you have to be over 18 to “sign” it.

also it doesn’t matter under US law if he did lie when signing contracts mroe legit than the average EULA/TOS.

also you don’t know if he lied about his age at all becuase that’s not part of what’s being reported here.

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Robert Mann

So what, game companies will have to start demanding two forms of valid identification notarized and faxed over to play? How about we just make parents step in and not allow/defend crud-tastic behavior?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

wat? XD

they are suing him over cheats saying he broke the EULA by cheating and infringed the copyright on their code by cheating.

if they simply banned him this woudn’t be an issue.

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Robert Mann

They banned him 9 times. And DCMA’d his videos showing cheats. To which he responded by posting personal information of employees in yet another video.

How again was banning him going to fix this?

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

so dox him in return right?

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Robert Mann

Apparently they are better than that, and just filed DMCA notices. He or his mother countered in his name, not Epic’s fault that they have to file in turn, nor is it really a problem that they upped the ante with regard to the cheating involved when the response was to be an asshole.

If you have proof they did something like dox him, bring it forward. So far the only thing proven for illegal release or doxing was the kid himself releasing personal information of Epic employees.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the splashed a minor’s name all over the internet, which you can’t sue a minor directly in the US anyway.

seems like you haven’t even bothered to read the relevant articles on this topic before going on a crusade here bro.

look cheating is shitty behaviour. but so is what epic is doing these days. and they’d have better luck if they were suing the cheat making company instead of a couple of people who just used it.

and for their lack of due diligence they now look like assholes targetting kids at a time when f2p games are seen as preying on kids in the main stream media.

so i suggest you read up on this episode more than you clearly have before responding to every comment i’ve made in the thread hours after the fact with assumptions you’ve pulled out of your ass.

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Robert Mann

They filed suit. ONCE. In a way they were required to do, in order to enforce their DMCA. Actions have consequences. When the family filed counter-DMCA they authorized that legal document using that name… period.

Anything less simply makes DMCA pointless, as everyone will simply abuse minors to post things that would be restricted by it. That’s a far more insidious result than having court filings include the names of minors who act so stupidly.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Deekay, you’re the one who needs to do some reading here.

They didn’t “splash his name all over the internet.” His name was already all over his social media and streaming accounts.

Epic filed a perfectly legitimate suit against him based on the information he provided in his YouTube DMCA counter-claim. That was the correct. and *only* action, for them to take in response to a DMCA counter-claim, to prevent YouTube from restoring the video in question.

Before filing a suit against this individual, Epic had *already filed against the cheat website’s owners.* They’re not JUST chasing a 14 year old kid here, for christ’s sake.

https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/12/16464750/epic-games-fortnite-cheater-lawsuit

Note: the two individuals listed here ARE NOT the 14 year old or the other individual they filed against in later October.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the two people they are suing are just users that epic alleges is helping make the cheats

this is like alleging that mmo beta testers make the mmo’s they beta test btw.

Mom Defends 14-Year Old ‘Fortnite’ Cheater in Court

there’s no mention anywhere of them suing the actual cheat making company or it’s owners. in that polygon article or anywhere else.

and again you can’t directly sue minors in the US. if epic’s legal had done due diligence they would’ve aimed the lawsuit at his parents instead.

so now the lawsuit will likely be dimissed or at least withdrawn due to that.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Deekay, they’ve filed lawsuits against FOUR people. I just told you this. Did you even read the Polygon article?

“Epic Games has filed suit against two individuals for making and using software that allows players to cheat in their game, Fortnite, according to court documents. A pair of suits filed in North Carolina name Brandon Broom and Charles Vraspir as the defendants. Both are said to be associated with the same subscription-based cheating service, AddictedCheats.net.”

Brandon Broom and Charles Vraspir = the two individuals Epic alleges are owners of AddictedCheats.net. One declined to comment on the claim, the other (a Canadian resident) couldn’t be reached by Polygon. These were filed on October 10th.

https://dockets.justia.com/docket/north-carolina/ncedce/5:2017cv00512/160125

https://dockets.justia.com/docket/north-carolina/ncedce/5:2017cv00511/160124

The minor and the other individual that were the focus of the Kotaku article and this posting, who were livestreaming on Twitch and posting videos on YouTube, were filed against on October 23rd (the minor) and November 2nd. Both are, just as above, publicly available on the same site. I won’t link to the minor’s, but here’s the other person:

https://dockets.justia.com/docket/north-carolina/ncedce/5:2017cv00554/160600

I really don’t know how this can be made any more clear for you. Four people. Two (yes, alleged) owners; two individuals who publicly stated, and streamed, modifications to the cheat engines to allow them to bypass a patch.

Four.

People.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

idk where you got four people from but it’s certainly not in the polygon article.

https://dockets.justia.com/search?parties=epic+games+inc&cases=mostrecent

all of these defendants are accused of helping make the cheat engine and using it (and in some cases broadcast it as an additional claim).

it’s not clear if any of these people being sued actually work for the cheat companies in question.

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Robert Mann

There’s been a dozen or so article swarms about them pursuing cheating, this one is merely the latest. If you are basing everything off this one article, then you have far less than half the story.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Look at the dates. Polygon article = October 12, right after the first two were filed.

Kotaku article concerning the minor = November 26th, a month after they filed against him and the fourth individual.

Again, the reason they’re accusing the latter two of being possible developers is the fact that they specifically claimed, on stream, that they had actually gone into it and modified it to get around a patch that had stopped it. They weren’t just “casual users,” they updated and were offering to redistribute it via links during the stream.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Nobody’s actually shown where he was “doxed.” Epic filed a lawsuit – they didn’t name him in a social media post. Further, his information is ALREADY ON HIS YOUTUBE. His Twitter handle is his first and last name, and it’s linked from YT. For all I know, not having watched his videos, he probably shouts it out at some point during his stream too.

Nobody was doxed here.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Yeah. I was right lol. His YT video was just an upload of his Twitch stream, and his Twitch account (which he advertises on the YT) also links to his first+last name Twitter.

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Tanek

Looks like they had “simply banned him”. He got around the bans and started posting the cheats online.

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Armsbend

Child endangerment by posting a 14 year old’s name for one.

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McGuffn

The only endangerment the kid is facing is the electric chair after Judge Judy convicts him of cheating.

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Kevin Smith

They didn’t break a single law in reality. While it is seen as improper to name a minor there is not a law forbidding it. So there is no child endangerment. Besides you could argue this minor was doing it himself way before they did it in his youtube videos.

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Armsbend

.

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Arktouros

And people think age consent is going to fix the lockbox problem haHAA

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Tanek

One thing that caught my eye the bit about the kid not being of age to agree to any of the terms of service without a parent or legal guardian’s consent.

First, I have always wondered about this. How is a company supposed to confirm the age of a player? If the kid is going to lie, there is not much that can be done.

Second, is it a valid defense to just say “I did not give consent”? I mean, if that is the case, then anyone can do that, whether or not it is true. Also, if no consent was given, it highlights the other problem of how to know what your kids are doing online.

And third, if the kid is underage, yet “signed” the agreement, either his mother should be the one sued for his actions, or, if the “no consent” thing flies and he is legally untouchable, at the very least I hope the account was closed and he is not allowed to make another.

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Jack Pipsam

That’s the big problem with laws like COPPA, it’s all nonsense.

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Kevin Smith

The parents give consent the second their child logs into a game as far as consent goes. It is a parental responsibility to know what your children are doing online. Companies cover their asses by putting the age disclaimer in writing which protects them from parents.

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Tanek

If that is the case, then the consent issue is a non-starter here. So far, the only potential issue I see on Epic’s side is releasing the kid’s name. and if that was in the kid’s youtube videos or the counterclaim first, then that might be out, too.

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Robert Mann

It’s a federal charge that Epic filed. They filed in N.C. Therefore, federal and N.C. laws apply. Given there’s no such law in those locations about naming like that…

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A Dad Supreme

First, I have always wondered about this. How is a company supposed to confirm the age of a player? If the kid is going to lie, there is not much that can be done.

The company doesn’t have to confirm the age of a player. That’s not what those agreements are for. What they are for is letting the company off the hook for anything, not the player. That’s why it says “you must agree”. If you don’t agree, then they have an out.

If someone misrepresents age, that really isn’t up to the company to investigate every signee. A company would/will probably argue in court “bad parenting” and responsibility if it got to that in the same way states hold parents liable for certain things their kids do.

launcher_user_agreement.jpg
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Tanek

If it is not up to the company to verify age at that point, then wouldn’t that muddy the waters with things like this later? Maybe every company should have the customer not only say they are above whatever age, but have them put the age or an age range in there, along with a consent checkbox if the person is underage.

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A Dad Supreme

If it is not up to the company to verify age at that point, then wouldn’t that muddy the waters with things like this later?

It does a bit. It’s not totally clear if a parent is legally responsible for a child’s online debts in some cases from what I’ve read (scroll down I put a link to CR)

In this case, I don’t think the company will sue the parent even if they could. It’s bad press and they’d have to prove loss I’d think.

But legally if they could actually prove a loss, I imagine they could sue and win vs the parents as the guardian/responsible party of the child performing illegal actions that cost them money.

No lawyer here, just how I’d view it as a parent and juror.

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Robert Mann

I disagree, considering that not only did she enable and defend his actions like this, but that she did so after he went so far as to give personal data on an Epic employee in a video he posted… I’d bet they try to hammer them, to at least as many cheers as people being upset.

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A Dad Supreme

“The mother’s objections include the claims that she never gave parental consent for Fortnite’s terms and conditions…”

Is it my age showing, or did anyone else’s mind immediately think:

wonkered.jpg
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Melissa McDonald

this is awesome

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A Dad Supreme

That was awesome, lol!

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Armsbend

No. Here is the law of the land:

“A child under the age of 18 is considered a minor and is unable to sign a contract unless it is for essential items. Essential items include medicines, food, and medical services. Otherwise, the minor child must have a parent or guardian consent to the contract in order for it to be legally binding.”

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Robert Mann

Yeah, contracts are voided… but often there’s legal problems for the parent or guardian following that. It’s not a ‘Oh, never mind’ scenario when something happens. It raises questions on adequate supervision of the minor, and generally they are liable for costs incurred.

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A Dad Supreme

I meant the movie scene, not the legalese, lol. Humor?

For the record, Mom might be screwed then if they can prove loss, which seems to be the only real sticking point I see.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/07/are-you-responsible-for-purchases-your-kids-make-without-your-permission/index.htm

”But there are exceptions, including for necessities, such as food, clothing, and lodging. Also, parents’ liability is unclear for online purchases, especially if a website asks the buyer to verify that he or she is at least 18 years old.”

My guess is the company will let the matter die because the kid lied. They’ve made so much money already they don’t need to sue her and don’t need bad press.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

fortnite is free to play. she’s not claiming he bought things without her permission. she’s claiming he can’t be sued for cheating because he couldn’t legally sign the contract as a minor and it’s therefore nonbinding.

also see the old cd mail order offer trick teens used to do in the 90s where the kids would pay the dime or penny or w/e for several cd’s but the cd company couldn’t hold them accountable to the rest of the offer stipulating they had to buy several more cd’s at full price within set amount of time.

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A Dad Supreme

I remember those Colombia House scams. I used to be a member, lol. They would have you tape a penny to the form. Then the post office complained about pennies getting stuck in the sorting. Good times.

I don’t think they were trying to sue him as a 14 year old. I’m guessing they assumed he was of-age and then went after him on that assumption.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Very doubtful that they knew he was a 14-year-old when they filed the complaint.

Columbia House! Blast from the past.

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BalsBigBrother

An interesting video from someone seems to know something about the laws for this case:

It might give some more context to the ins and outs of the case, it might not be as simple as it seems. Personally I have no clue as the truth of the situation and it will be interesting to read the outcome article when there is one.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

French looks like an interesting guy. He’s a copyright attorney practicing in Pennsylvania, specializing in defending against file-sharing lawsuits. Which means he is probably familiar with the law surrounding underage defendants and probably has researched this issue. I’m also guessing, based on the cases he’s been involved in, that he’s also familiar with Mom’s defense.

http://torrentdefense.com/

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Darthbawl

Was going to post his video, this guys is good. He sometimes has a field day with some of these lawsuits.

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Doctor Sweers

Pretty good video. Interested to see how this all plays out. I would not let this go if I were Epic due to the age of the kid, however, enough bad PR could force Epic to back out.

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Armsbend

If I’m being frank I don’t really trust any attorney who has that much geek junk in his house. I’d never hire a guy like that I can’t imagine anyone else would either.

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Tanek

Given that “geek junk” is becoming more and more popular and mainstream, you may not be able to trust anyone under the age of 60 these days. Plus, “geek stuff” includes parts of modern culture that law has not figured out yet. Like the internet and digital sales.

I’d rather a law nerd who also happens to be a star wars and computer nerd over someone who may continue to look at the times around us and apply outdated thinking to new problems.

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Doctor Sweers

LOL, truth!

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BalsBigBrother

Personally I would just want my attorney to know his / her stuff with regards to the law. What they so with their money on their own time is their own business :-)

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Armsbend

If I’m hiring someone I prefer they be serious. No fun allowed unless that fun is reading law books.

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McGuffn

I agree. If a lawyer has kids I immediately think they’ve had too much fun and don’t hire them.

Can’t have them get distracted by other things.

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Robert Mann

Ok, so what’s your job, why are you here instead of improving at it, and why do you play games since you should be 100% focused on your work?

Sound unreasonable? If so, congrats, you get it…

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Probably you wouldn’t touch such a person with a ten foot pole. Lawyers are people and people need perspective and reach so as not to be complete jerks. What you want is a smart lawyer, someone mentally agile and good at critical thinking and those kinds of lawyers come in all stripes and colors.

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Tanek

I’d assume you were joking, if I had not already been familiar with your comment history. :)

Why would someone have to spend 100% of their time in a law library to be any good at the job? I would think some fun has to be in the mix for balance, no?

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Armsbend

<3

I'm just being honest. I didn't say it had to make sense. No judgement on this fellow – it's just my personal opinion on what I'd do with my money. Your money may vary :)

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Armsbend

Looks like they screwed with the wrong kid – one with an active and intelligent mother. For this infraction: “she stated that the company released her son’s name, which is illegal under Delaware law when concerning a minor.” I hope she sues them for everything they are worth.

This could in turn help gamers in the fight against scummy developers targeting children for their gain.

MJ Guthrie
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MJ Guthrie

This isn’t targeting a “child” it is targeting a malicious cheater who gets profit from it. Go Epic.

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Armsbend

There may be better ways to handle it. There may not be. Posting the name is the real problem here. You know as much as I do how many maniacs are on the internet. Posting the name of a kid by any company is not cool. You never know what crazies might do.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

Epic did not post his name. Epic filed a legitimate lawsuit in response to his illegitimate DMCA counter-claim from his YouTube channel, using the information he listed on said counter-claim.

His name is listed in court documents, which is again fully legitimate until a judge decides otherwise. Minors aren’t automatically protected from being listed in publicly available court documents – only those involving specific kinds of cases.

As minors do have the ability to own and claim copyright, they have the ability to be sued for said copyright; that’s what’s happening here.

His name was already out there as he uses it for multiple social media accounts, all of which are linked to his YouTube and Twitch channels.

One person put his name out there: himself. Not Epic. His name is *still* out there, on these *still active* social media channels. If his mom cared that much, she would have done something about them in the month+ since he received the suit.

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MJ Guthrie

I totally get the whole internet crazies thing! But he outright agreed to have his info out there with his DMCA counter-claim. Honestly, the mom should have been more involved and up in arms about what her child was doing all that time he was pulling this crap. Did she give him unrestricted access to computer and internet? Now if he did this all out of her home and in a friend’s maybe she’d not be able to see what’s going on. But involved parents would normally get an inkling of stuff out of sorts. Good parenting is something I wish more would ascribe to. You can’t cry foul after letting the kid run rampant doing all this. Maybe mom needs some support in order to deal with this kid.

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Veldan

Exactly. Regardless of whether there’s sufficient legal grounds for action against this 14 year old, he deservers whatever he gets.

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Kevin Smith

Delaware law doesn’t matter for a company located in NC which I believe is where this is. State laws do not cross state lines.

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Robert Mann

Specifically for a lawsuit filed there, with a federal offense and in federal court. That’s why I have kept saying that, but people seem to think this is just some average lawsuit at state/local level.

The business would, if filing a state court level offense, have to file at the person’s location… but since this is a federal offense they filed at their local federal court.

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Indigo Salma

Whole lot of massive respect to his mom. Like wow , she went out firing nuke missiles back at them.

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Robert Mann

Not sure about that one, given their complaint includes a note that he gave out personal information about employees. I… agree that her standing up to protect her children is great, but at the same time I want to see her actions to rectify her negligence and her child being a giant jerk here before I really respect her on this.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

tbh when i read the headline i went into this article thinking this would be a classic case of helicopter parenting, but reading her points in the article she has some really valid points.

and tencent owned epic games execs in teh past few years have had a penchant for saying odd things like the CEO’s regular statements that he thinks that MS is going to kill 99% of their software ecosystem by killing win32 in favour of their app store and it’s code system. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

so doesn’t surprise me they’d be stupid enough to name and shame a minor like this no matter how that’s illegal in most places and just kind of stupid and ignorant in general even where it’s not illegal.

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Armsbend

Same here. I was ready to say, “the best thing she could do is let him get in trouble” but then after reading her points…really why should a little kid get sued at all for a video game?

You can’t release a kid’s face if he is holding the gun that murdered a human – and Epic thought it was cool to print him out over a video game he can’t legally consent to?

Nice moves.

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A Dad Supreme

It depends on when they released his name.

Did they release his name after they found out he was a 14 year old kid or did they release his name when he lied on the EULA/TOS without knowing he was a 14 year old pretending to be an 18 year old?

It’s clear he lied on it because his mom said she never agreed to the terms. That means someone signed it, that someone being the kid.

The kid lies and says he’s over 18 and agrees to terms, so the company (rightfully imo) releases that name that was signed on the EULA/TOS.

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Sray

You don’t sign your name on a EULA, you just click “I agree”, and companies don’t ask ages when you create an account, other than over 13 years old. It was on Epic to actually discover the age of the defendant before publicly naming them.

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A Dad Supreme

If you are between the ages of 13 and 18 (or between 13 and the age of legal majority in your country of residence), you may only use the Twitch Services under the supervision of a parent or legal guardian who agrees to be bound by these Terms of Service.Feb 17, 2017

Pretty much the case for everyone here. It’s on Epic but companies put this in to cover themselves.

I don’t think anything will happen. They obviously didn’t know he was underage when they released his name. A lawsuit against the parent will only generate bad press even though they could win if they proved harm.

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Robert Mann

Agreed, but at the same time Delaware law doesn’t apply in North Carolina. Guess what, they don’t have quite the same rules. There’s no federal law on it. They do, however, have rules in both states that parents are responsible at least in part for what their children go out and do (along with federal laws toward that end.)

Given that Epic is headquartered in NC, they would follow NC laws. Not Delaware laws. Which means that her claim there is pointless.

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Sray

Well, I’m not claiming any sort of legal knowledge here. I don’t have any clue as to how this should/could all shake out, but it’s highly likely that the kids was never asked his age at any point during the game sign up, so this really just points to some very lax work on the part Epic Games when they put this lawsuit into motion. Honestly, the whole thing sounds more like a scare tactic than any real effort to “recoup losses die to cheating”.

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race sweet

Filing a DMCA counter-claim is a legal action that takes information such as your name, address, email address, and phone number but not your age. The video in question was monetized something that DOES requires your age, full name, date of birth. The act of the video being monetized means either the kid lied about his age or his mother authorized it. EPIC has no choice but to take the counter claim at face value and proceed in the legal way.

Furthermore this isnt a new trick for EPIC.

https://www.polygon.com/2016/6/17/11965308/epic-sues-gamer-over-creation-of-world-s-most-powerful-paragon-hack

They purposefully use DMCA claims to bait cheating youtuber into agreeing to US federal jurisdiction instead of a outside or state jurisdiction. (EPIC won this lawsuit in case you where wondering)

I doubt this will get dropped due to EPIC’s long lawsuit history over the past three years.

ihatevnecks
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ihatevnecks

The kid also filed a DMCA counter-claim on YouTube, which does explicitly state his information will be released to the claimant, that they may then use his information in a full legal suit (which they have), and that it is a legally binding claim.

Strangely his mom hasn’t remarked at all on that little piece. Nor has she actually specified where they “released” his name, other than in the lawsuit itself, which they’d be required to do because *that’s the information he gave them in his counterclaim.*

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A Dad Supreme

Honestly, the whole thing sounds more like a scare tactic than any real effort to “recoup losses die to cheating”.

Exactly. I think it’s to show they are combating cheating (which almost every gamer complains about) no matter where it goes.

If Epic did nothing, then others think it’s weak and copy, causing more complaints. But if players see Epic will push something out to the point of lawsuits, then they may re-think it.

The fact that it’s a child complicates things but I believe they were trying to send a message to the community that they don’t just ignore cheating like many companies get accused of.

wpDiscuz