The Daily Grind: Do you ever play MMORPGs against 'type'?

Perhaps owing at least in part to the charisma of its chief executive, Camelot Unchained is one of those rare in-production MMORPGs that seems to attract people who would normally flee from it in horror.

What I mean by that is the same people I see freaking out over any new MMO that proposes open PvP of one form or another are following Camelot intently. There's even a lot of resistance to games that are basically tame battleground PvP, like Crowfall -- but Camelot seems immune.

Camelot Unchained isn't against my type -- I'm a huge fan of three-way RvR and can't wait to see how a modern Dark Age of Camelot sandpark looks in practice -- but I'm super intrigued that it's something a lot of non-PvP players (and even some of our non-PvP writers!) are watching. Can you think of other examples? Do you ever play or follow MMORPGs against your type -- and which ones?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today's Daily Grind!
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105 Comments on "The Daily Grind: Do you ever play MMORPGs against 'type'?"

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Tandor

I'm not into PvP, although I've done it in the past. As such I am extremely unlikely to look at CU let alone play it, but I've followed the articles about it here (and only here) because of Mark Jacob's active participation given that I have a lot of respect for the way he handled the EU situation on WAR (as I've mentioned before).

The lack of PvE content will deter me from CU - it was the PvE content that I played DAoC for. I have also at times harbored the hope that crafting might be a viable alternative to PvP in CU but in all honesty I don't really expect that to be the case. I'll keep watching, however. Generally though, if a game is PvP-only I don't take any real interest in it, and I certainly won't play it.

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Mitsake

I have such great memories of DAoC. It was one of my first MMOs and I'm sure it's that RvRvR nostalgia that is pulling me towards this game even though I don't PvP in my current games. This game might not be my type long-term but I'm willing to take that risk!

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rafael12104

Hmm. In my experience, my "type" changes depending on how fun a game is.

So, I'm not a huge PvP fan. I prefer my MMos PvE heavy and with no gank zones. Yet over the past few years I have played and stuck with a couple of games that are heavily PvP oriented.

I played AA for quite a long time from Alpha to 6 months after launch. The game certainly did have open world pvp zones which are not my thing. But the game offered so much in terms of crafting housing and just the general world at large, that I lived with it. In fact I ended up thriving in the open world.

BnS. Not my type of game. Korean MMOs aren't excluded from my sampling of games but for the most part, they need to be "western" for me to enjoy them ie. No anime, less grinding, good PvE elements and not just PvP. BnS changed all of that. For me, the combat is so good that I stuck around after trying that game on a lark. Suddenly, I like the art style, don't find grinding for gear a difficulty, found great PvE in dungeons, and can hold my own in PvP.
Mission acomplished BnS, you have changed me. Lol

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Zen Dadaist

I'm one of those that by all rights shouldn't be giving CU the time of day, yet I am following along its development and will likely give it a play when it releases. Go figure!

Rift was totally and utterly against type for me and I would never have even looked in its direction had I not been dragged in by my friends. WoW-like, fantasy genre, linear levelling etc. - ticked all of my usual NOPE boxes. And yet it held my attention for longer than most other MMOs I played. Once again, go figure :p

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Hirku

Nope. If a game isn't my "type," then it's because I don't find it fun.

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Oleg Chebeneev

Sometimes I really want to like the game and giving it a chance over and over, but quit fairly fast just because I dont have fun. Dragonrealms mud is latest example. EVE is another frequent one.

CU is actually exactly my type of MMO. PvP focused open world, yes pls. I just wasnt impressed so far with what they shown us.

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NeoWolf

I played EVE for 3 or 4 years and being someone who does not enjoy PVP in even the slightest I would say that was against my type. I actually enjoyed the game, met some douches but also some really awesome folks who taught me a literal ton about the intricacies of the game.

I still didn't pvp mind but it was fun while it lasted but having limited pve content evetually it ceased to have enough draw for me.

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adri

First I was totally against camelot unchained because it's against my personal MMO view. But the longer I read things about this game the more I got interested.
It's more than just a plain old boring pvp arena game and that's very appealing to me.
So I can say for myself that I'm a bit more open minded than a few years ago and I try out new games even if they are more or less against my preferences.

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Bryan Turner

Hardly I'm pretty set in my views regarding Gank Boxes, they promote Buy to Win cash shop whales, and it's a lazy way for Developers to avoid making any story or lore.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

PvP games, the ones that dedicate themselves to being purely that, don't fulfill the needs I require out of a MMO. I'm an explorer/crafter at heart, with a strong focus on solo/duo dungeon delving.

DAoC had that perfect mix of what I liked, including kick-ass class design, with the option to dip into RvR if I chose to. Big boy RvR (lvl 50) wasn't my thing at all, but I absolutely adored the BG's and Darkness Falls. I had options, and could float around where I chose.

My interest in CU is because Mark is making it, and (so far) it seems to be falling into place nicely. I like the idea that it is the spiritual successor to DAoC, but the omission of a strong PvE presence, IMHO, doesn't place it entirely in that category. It's Big Boy RvR in it's entirety, and kudos that they have enough people to back them and (hopefully) be successful.

When it launches, I am going to check it out. Nothing like seeing it in person. So, who knows. Normally I wouldn't be following a PvP game at all, but CU intrigues me. I'm going to give it a fair shake.

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Doubleplusgood

All of the raid based MMO where the game doesnt start till max level and if you don't raid your a scrub.
I do not raid. I would even go so far to say that I despise raiding and everything about it. But I still play MMO like WoW where my characters will never have the best gear. Nor will they ever get the shiny mounts or fancy looking gear from raids. My gear is tmogged in whatever greens and blues I can scrape together to try to look nice. I ride old mounts that no one ever asks in awe where I got them from. I never get to see the end game content. When my character reaches max level the game ends with no more progression. I instead play or create a new character to level up in outdated and irrelevant content. Yet I still manage to have fun :)

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Sally Bowls

I really, really empathize with this. I look at it as I will see the raids and have most of the mounts and achievements - and all of the gear - from the hardest raids. I will just have them a year or two after some other people.

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Doubleplusgood

That's a good point! I do eventually get to see end game content years later when you can out level it. But you don't get to experience it as it was intended. Like for example, I finally killed the Lich King about 5 years after everyone else did. Mounts and gear though, that can be tricky since some have very low drop rates. You have a greater chance of obtaining them doing content on a regular basis when it was fresh. While it takes longer when you only start doing the content years later.

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Sally Bowls

I cynically say that mounts dropped more frequently back in the day but my chance of getting it is higher now - ninja looters and drama. A pretty decent LK raiding guild essentially died after an alt won the 3DU mount over the healer who emoed out and made her BF tank do as well.

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Schmidt.Capela

This is the reason I will never do any group content without individualized loot ever again. The looting drama is far higher than I'm willing to accept in an activity that was supposed to be done for fun.

I will never again do raids even with individualized loot, mind. I despise the raiding model, I hate being a part of a group so large it makes me feel insignificant, and the whole herding cats thing is too stressful for someone like me that dislikes leading but can't stand playing DPS due to finding that role beyond boring.

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Crow

This was more the approach that was taken for earlier MMORPGs which got completely lost in the last decade or so. The older set of MMORPGs tended toward the idea that the world, itself, was worthwhile to spend time in for a player. There was tons of stuff and the focus was on "get to max level so it can REALLY begin" in the same way that is very much "forced" into more modern games. Those, now, that have serious raiding and such tend to funnel players there at the expense of the world and journey.

My own preference is for games that provide options for content while keeping pressure low. And I'm one who enjoys PvP sandboxes and the like. BDO is great because there are many paths you can take and being content with your gear level is the greatest blessing. Coveting thy neighbor's mount or gear is where we start to see the eternal mainlines where everything gets rebalanced to be accessible by everyone-- making everything devalued.

I see no issue with hardcore raiding being a mythical pursuit only open to 1% of the population. I'm fine with that. When there is a decided class of players who are "more powerful" it helps to add to the world. When everyone is the same, more or less, it gets very boring very quickly unless one is playing it as a MMOSPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Single Player Game).

The glory of raiding is that you'll likely never do it, but it would be cool. It also provides a very realistic caste and class system for players which only devalues non-raiders if a company allows it. Vanilla WoW was so locked for progression raiding that it wasn't even a realistic goal for many. And that is fine. Without things to actually strive for we're just in a constant Pavlovian response loop.

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Schmidt.Capela

Yeah, old MMOs were usually more about the virtual world/virtual society thing than about the gameplay. Which is great for a certain kind of player, not so great for everyone else; there is a reason UO more than doubled its player base after making PvP opt-in, and thus removing a huge amount of (potentially unwanted) player interaction.

It's more or less my case. I've been following MMOs since the days of the MUDs, but only did more than dabbling in them when the virtual world aspect was toned down. Kinda ironic in that I love virtual worlds as long as they are single player affairs.

As for raiding: I will never again do it. But I'm not willing to be a "second class player" just because after a year of raiding I found that I could never enjoy it, so if a game has raids and offers raiders any advantage that can't be otherwise obtained by other players, that is a game I'm very unlikely to even bother with.

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Crow

This is just more evidence for my serious theory that MMORPGs take a far larger market share currently than they deserve under normal market forces. That isn't a disparagement of the genre, but a reality that the actual playerbase of people who want to play MMORPGs is more in-line with realistic growth from EQ/UO-era pops.

We have legions of players in MMORPGs who by their own admission don't want to play MMORPGs but for some reason keep playing them and expecting them to be single player affairs.

This is a line in the sand that I tend to be firm on. You don't seem to like MMORPGs and you also seem to know that. Which comes to a Sociological and somewhat economic question about why so many people play MMORPGs when they don't actually want to be playing MMORPGs.

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Vexia

I'm going to play CU, but I think rather than saying it's against my type as a PvP game, it would be more accurate for me to say I just haven't played the right types of PvP. I enjoy the odd instanced battleground here and there, but I do not enjoy FFA PvP games. I want to engage in PvP with a mechanical purpose that has a greater impact on the game's world at-large. At least right now the idea sounds very engaging.

One game I play frequently that's against my type, at least in terms of aesthetics, is Blade & Soul. I love the action combat, but I'm not really a fan of costumes that look extra sexualized for female characters but not for male characters. I believe if we're going to have a cheesecake/eye candy game, you might as well offer something for everyone (while male costumes like that exist in the game, IMO they are few and far between). But I kind of get around all that by playing Lyn characters whose costumes are much more covering in comparison. However, if I want to swing giant axes, I have to go Gon or go home.

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Dirty Ape

I'm looking forward to Camelot Unchained but I think the lack of PvE is a big mistake that will cost them. I enjoyed RvR in DAoC but a lot of the friends I had were met while PvEing, and PvE provided a good path for people to contribute and still feel valuable even when their realm may be losing. PvE provided the calm between the storm of RvR and added a ton to the lore and feel of the game.

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Bryan Correll

I think the relatively narrow focus of CU is in large part a financial issue. The folks at CSE are working with a relatively small budget that will allow them to deliver on the core rvr gameplay but doesn't leave a lot for more purely pve activity. By being more focused the game can be a successful with a much smaller player base than a major pve title would require.
And there will be some pve elements. Crafting and resource gathering will be a mostly 'pve' type activity. And though the best (and almost only) gear will be crafted, the pve dungeon 'The Depths' will provide access to special resources for use in crafting.

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Crow

The truth is that the people at CSE are good at running a business and dealing with their books. They aren't overextending themselves, nor are they rushing to accomplish more than they know they can deliver. Of all the "open communication" projects out there CSE is one of the only ones that constantly demonstrates a clear and skillful understanding of what they need to do to remain financially viable.

Most issues with crowdfunders come down to a lack of economic/business understanding. While many games fail for various outward reasons, the truth is that most failed MMORPGs have been because they never hired/contracted/spoke with someone who could look them in the eye and say, "This is wasteful spending and will bury you" because that is exactly what happens.

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Manastu Utakata

Didn't think I would like isometric games...until I was tantalized by the whimsical Tree of Savior. o.O

capt_north
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capt_north

I was seriously into Battlefield 1942 and Planetside for awhile. They're not MMOs, and for me, that's the point. If you want players to fight one another, set up a game (or minigame) where they fight one another, with balanced teams and abilities, and don't try to drag in people who don't want to fight, and especially not people without the gear, skills and attitude to be anything more than piñatas.

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Crow

I love me Battlefield. I played ton of BF:BC2, but the entries past that haven't clicked with me at all. Gave BF3 a try on both console and PC and neither worked for me like BC2 (and before) did.

That was, until I found Eternal Crusade. EC is BF:40K and it is wonderful.

At the same time, I love PvP in my MMORPGs. I also tend to like penalties and downgrade-events (like XP loss on death or gear devolution). At the end of the day I tend to have the mentality that the more chopped-up and the more walls between different stuffs in MMORPGs the less cohesive the world feels as a whole. WoW is a great example of where two factions should be at each others' throats and yet they peacefully co-exist with an unnatural focus on the grinds.

My main game (and likely the MMORPG that has stood my own test of time) is LotRO... which is an almost purely PvE, carebear experience with a huge focus on narrative and themepark approach. And I love it because they do a fantastic job. The writing is superb (meeting and, I think at this point, greatly exceeding TSW), the landscapes are awesome, the PvE is fun and engaging overall and the leveling experience is so enjoyable no matter your first or your twelfth time through. And then the amount of content! Holy cow!

However, in LotRO they have two specific PvP instances and a whole system for people to play evil characters limited to those two areas. It makes sense and is in line with the world and approach. WoW, for example again, has bent over backwards to twist the lore into a place where the two factions are muddied and in a lot of same-ness in favor of pushing back against a rather consistent antagonistic force between them.

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Xijit

there is a titanic, fundamental difference between open PvP that really has no effect on gameplay outside of harassment and bullying other players & faction based, focused PvP where combat against other players in a controlled environment is fundamentally built into the game's mechanics.

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Bryan Correll

Exactly. I have basically no interest in FFA murder zones, but simulated warfare is a differently matter entirely.

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Xijit

I can't stand ganking, but love objective based team / arena PVP.

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Byórðæįr

When MMO were starting out they were mostly sand boxes with safe areas around the roads, then one of the early one decided that no where would be safe... even the towns and slowly MMO have tried to figure out the best mix of safe areas, realm version realm and free for all areas. The free for all with no rules those are not something I do. The controlled brawl type areas those are fun for me but only controlled ones.

What I like or my type is what works for me to enjoy myself and if something comes up I can take care of that then go back to gaming. Usually you don't know what to expect when a game is first announced as developers try to figure out what makes money or what their niche is. Like wow is an amusement park but you have to be a certain level to ride certain dungeons. Some times getting to that point is something to do later. I like crafting but like most people it is usually about getting the item or creating something new. Avarice is good, greed is bad. Meaning wanting lots of shiny is something ethic people admit they want. Greed is simply wanting someone else's shiny, because someone else has it. I know the dictionary confuses lust, love, sex, avarice and greed most of the time. But wanting to craft a bunch of cool things or something you have never skin before for a new 3d model variation of a weapon or armor is normal. We play to feel rewarded for doing something.

I find most of the games that are not my type are the ones that see things differently. Some times I play different MMO's until it is no longer feels like something fun to do or I have things I have to do in actual life that simply use up all my free time.

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Melissa McDonald

I wish them well, but my interest in it ended when I learned it was a PvP game mostly.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

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MesaSage

That's wonderfully weird

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David Goodman

Swipe right..

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Melissa McDonald

ROFL both of you :)

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Shiro Madoushi

Honestly if you don't enjoy some form of PvP you might as well stick to single player and co-op games. I really dislike this sites frequent demonization of PvP games and their players sometimes. Gankbox? Really? Why no boredbox or carebearbox for games without PvP? Is there even a writer at MOP that genuinely likes pvp games? When I say like I don't mean someone that dabbles with them on occasion.

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Melissa McDonald

do you even realize your attitude stereotypes you? lol.

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Sally Bowls

N.B.: we are ridiculing PvP MMOs, not PvP games. There are tens of millions of people who like the competition of PvP. But why are the PvP players "competing" in an MMO instead of an eSportable game? Occasionally, they like empires (e.g. EVE) or like making RL money (e.g. EVE.) But frequently it is because they want uneven PvP.

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Crow

Nah, it is because player conflict is one of many things that creates a largely "living" world.

By the same logic I could say that PvE players just want to be handed the best loot for signing up for a dungeon finder... which is what a lot of games look like these days.

Many individuals who love MMORPGs with sandbox-y PvP despise "eSports" and such because it isn't about the PvP, but about the conflict that brings. I've never seen a healthier community than NWN on AOL where guilds and organizations in-game actually meant something aside from "these are my friends". That's what happens when your concurrent user base is both capped at 200 and taken pretty directly from 1990's and prior AD&D players. Even the least RP of guilds would RP a little. Because that was just how it was. Guilds actually attempted to hold members to (guild-specific) ethical and guild charter-based conducts. "Good" guilds were often very serious about being "good" while "evil" guilds were serious about their evil-ness (in RP). There were thieves guilds based around chaotic alignments and all sorts of other stuffs.

That game actually birthed graphical MMO PvP because it was a logical and RP-desired feature the devs worked around to give to players. Hell, the zones were PvP/No PvP without mechanic safeguards. You could get in a LOT of trouble for killing someone where you shouldn't have killed them, and you were allowed to do so by the game's limitations.

The more freedom given, the more impressive the outcome. Look at Minecraft builds that literally look like photographs. Part of the issue has been the constant desire to provide tons of mechanics to deal with stuff like that while none actually accomplish what they are meant to.

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Schmidt.Capela

I would rather have a single-player experience than have player conflict in the games I play. Never liked it, and when I actually tried it to see if I could learn to enjoy it, the result was the opposite: the experience was so bad I vowed that I would never again even give a try to any game where I can be attacked by another player without my explicit consent.

(Or for some games I would use exploits to remove attacks. Manipulating my network connection to add 1000ms of latency to every network packet going in or out of the game is a great way to make sure anyone invading my Dark Souls game leaves frustrated and unable to do any damage.)

The same thing when I play pen and paper RPG games: we might have conflict between the characters, but if that conflict wasn't agreed upon by the characters's players beforehand, one of them is likely getting expelled from the group, with all the results of his actions undone by the GM/DM.

BTW, funny thing about Minecraft: the "vanilla" game is open PvP with looting, but a very large number of servers either use unofficial plugins to disable PvP or permanently ban any player that attempts PvP. I'm not sure about the numbers, but I typically find more PvE-only servers than servers where PvP is allowed.

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Crow

Or for some games I would use exploits to remove attacks.

So, you're an unabashed cheater?

I mean jeeze, you're fragile. You do realize that you can resolve conflicts peacefully without needing to transform things into a padded room.

And every game is different, but I'd never, ever allow players in a tabletop game (and I run them rather constantly) to dictate rules like that. If someone came to the table with a list of carebear demands I'd tell them to take a break and come back when they can be a part of the group. They can run their own game if they want special padded-gloves treatment.

Why? Because sometimes another player does something that creates conflict. Conflict that can become violent if players can't resolve it in character. No GM worth their salt would intentionally just throw intra-group conflict for the sake of conflict, but conflict is how we grow and learn and change. That goes triple for tabletop. The well-meaning-but-irreverent rogue and the duty-bound-upholder-of-justice are bound to come into conflict, which may even be intense. But the joy of RP and tabletop is that your GM will prevent anything horrific from happening if they're any good and decently fair. Such conflict can be huge to advance characters and personas.

I guess the point is that zero-sum walls only cause harm and conflict.

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BalsBigBrother

Brendan Drain has been playing EvE Online since the inception of this very site back when it was still with AOL. I suspect that he enjoys pvp but I wont hold it against him personally :p

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Melissa McDonald

You speak as though PvP is how it's always been. Not true. MMOs were almost all PvE with option to duel consensually, until last few years.

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Shiro Madoushi

What rock have you been living under? PvP has been the norm for a long time.

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Schmidt.Capela

Depends on the games you play. Just about every MMO that broke over 1M players in the west has PvP completely (or almost completely) optional.

There are a lot of online lobby PvP games (including a few truly huge ones) and of niche open PvP MMOs out there, though, so it isn't hard to find PvP online games.

As a disclaimer: I will never again play any game where I can't completely turn off PvP. I won't even try them, no matter how good they look. Exception granted to PvE-free lobby-based arena PvP games, I love those as long as there is no PvE element to taint the PvP fun.

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H. D. Harris🏳️‍🌈

Did...did you even read this post? Bree says she loves RvR right there

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Shiro Madoushi

Yet she is talking about gankboxes and sandbox murderfests below in the comments.

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H. D. Harris🏳️‍🌈

aye, because all pvp is not equal, some is good, some is bad

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Shiro Madoushi

So I ask again who decided what is bad and why are there special derogatory terms made for that type of game when there are no derogatory terms for other types of mmos used here? I happen to like the games that get the unfair "gankbox" label on them.

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imayb1

What's good or bad is subjective, of course. There are "special derogatory terms" for nearly everything. If you see a few comments on one side, give it some time and you'll see comments for the other side, too.

You are not alone in liking open PvP games. There are plenty of regular commenters who enjoy them. And MOP covers those because players want to know about them.

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Bryan Correll

Carebear and Themepark are both used as derogatory terms frequently.

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Pandalulz

Themepark... I totally blanked on that one. :P

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Pandalulz

I've been called a Carebear for as long as I remember playing MMOs. I don't know that there's a particular name for a genre made for Carebears, but same principle.

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David Goodman

Every person has the right to choose for themselves what they believe. If she thinks that one type of PVP is better, then that is her right, as it is yours to disagree. Asking who decided what is bad -- well, as the editor for the website, it's kind-of an easy answer: She gave herself the right to decide that. That's the benefit of running the forum about a thing.

And there are SO MANY DEROGATORY TERMS for other MMOs, used on this site. You have to be avoiding every other article they publish. Go to any World of Warcraft article pre-Legion for just a small example of a thousand of them. ;)

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Crow

So, to sum up: There isn't anything objective... everything is subjective so everyone is always right all the time about everything.

Now that is a dangerous and toxic mentality because it is simply not true.

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David Goodman

No, it didn't read the article.

My worthless kingdom for a message board system that requires you to to do so before you're allowed to post.

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Tobasco da Gama

EVE definitely fits this for me. Sci-fi and spaceships are my type, but PvP usually isn't. I think I'm willing to give it more of a chance because it was really designed from the ground up as an open PvP game rather than a do-it-all everything box. So getting ganked isn't an annoyance, it's content.

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Schmidt.Capela

What makes me follow a game is different from what makes me play a game, so I do follow a fair number of games I never expect to play. Camelot Unchained is one of those, I can't stand the kind of PvP it is aiming for, but the devs are open and friendly enough I find it a pleasure to follow the game.

As for playing against type: not anymore, or at least not for long. I spent about a decade playing every kind of MMO game in order to see what I actually liked; nowadays, having gone through that experience, I'm not only better aware of what pleases me, I'm also utterly unwilling to stick with a game I don't enjoy, so even if I were to start playing a game "against type" the moment I found a core gameplay aspect I don't enjoy I would leave the game, likely never to return.

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Armsbend

Happy Valentine's Day luvers.

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Bryan Correll

Screw Valentine's Day. Basically I'm to V-Day what the Grinch is to Christmas.

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Mitsake

The Grinch eventually warmed up and gave Christmas spirit to everyone he could.
Someday you will come around and give VD to everyone.

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deekay_plus

tempted to spend today getting drunk on box wine and marathoning urusei yatsura movies but i think i'll gather up some guildies to murder people instead. XD

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Schmidt.Capela

Kinda appropriate, as Urusei Yatsura is a word play on "a bunch of rowdy people".

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BalsBigBrother
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BalsBigBrother

Well I am playing EvE at the moment or I will again when I can sit comfortably at my desktop.

That is completely alien to my usual gaming type. The thing I have found about EvE is that while it has a certain reputation, a lot of it seemingly deserved, it also has some really nice helpful folks who will point you in the right direction depending on what you want to do.

So I have been able to find my niche and do my thing in my own little part of nul sec and the main danger I face is returning into settled "safe" space to sell my loots.

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Rheem Octuris

How is Crowfall a "tame battleground PvP" game?

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Manastu Utakata

Tame, as in Ms. Bree points out below...folks are more forced behave themselves in PvP. :)

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deekay_plus

because it's entire feature list was summed up in terms like that in their early ama which every question asking about the game and every design doc was summed up by the devs as "x popular game forum trope meets y pop culture meme"

i mean what was the tagline of the game 'some social media popular gank box meets game of thrones"? combined with PLAY TO CRUSH.

we were wrong that wow was the first meme mmo. crow fall was the first meme mmo.

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Rheem Octuris

I think you've missed my entire point. What does Crowfall's open world warfare have to do with WoW-style battlegrounds? I know that the pre-alpha test was like this whilst they nailed down combat, but that's no longer the case and was never meant to be long term.

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Crow

Crowfall is a disgusting marketing campaign. I find the proposed game, itself, to be the epitome of a project driven primarily by various profit markers. It literally took all the elements of popular games and is trying to synthesize them into the ultimate market-tested, committee-developed form.

coolster50
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coolster50

I think you're misinformed or you've misunderstood some information about CF's devs.

First off, CF has yet to spend ANY money on marketing, if they did, we'd probably be having NMS levels of hype around the project.

Secondly, the game is not comittee driven, there's pretty much only two guys at the helm running the company. They do have a Board of Directors, but they don't try to make the Devs milk their game.

Lastly, CF is specifically a niche game, focused on Open World PvP (with varying degrees of soft/hardcore modes). If CF was an amalgamation of all the popular games, 1) PvE content (dungeons/raids/quests) would have a much larger presence (there is none planned currently), and 2) they would need SC money to pull it off reasonably well. MMOs are not cheap to make, PvE ones especially.

Hope this helped clear your misunderstandings.

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Sray

Crowfall is basically a seasonal championship MOBA combined with the semi persistence of a crafting survival game, and then it's been targeted at MMORPG fans who don't like MOBAs. That sounds a hell of a lot like slapping together a few popular games together to check off stuff on a list that's popular these days (aka designed by committee).

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chriskovo .

No its pretty much a pvp mmo not a moba. The worlds don't last forever which is pretty cool and it will actually go through seasons of life as it dies.
It has skill trees like a mmo, your freaking make your bodies out of pierces of dead ones to upgrade yourself which I have never seen before and you also have the crafting elements to add armor and upgrade your own little home/pocket universes.

Add that to the fact that it is voxel based and you will actually be siege and destroying player created fortifications and you have a very good start to an pvp mmo if they can pull it off.

What ever it turns out to me it will not be a moba.

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Crow

Whelp, it isn't turning out to be a MMORPG, either.

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Crow

Wow. You must have missed the banner adds Crowfall took out advertising their damn Kickstarter.

Also, it takes all of three seconds to google "Design by committee".

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Crow

I still have huge ethical issues with running advertisements for a Kickstarter. "We're gonna spend money on marketing designed to get consumers to donate money to us..." like, seriously? They'll spend money to advertise their begging campaign. There are few zero-sum lines I really take in general but this one is damn clear: If you have an out-of-the-gate marketing campaign for your crowdfunding campaign you should not be allowed on the platform. Disgusting.

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Crow

We DID make this happen. It just sucks. There's a huge difference between a 501(c)(3) having a realistic marketing budget and a profit-generating company soliciting non-recourse funding while also having a budget line for advertisement.

At the end of the day a non-profit isn't going to pocket profits by law. Crowfall will pocket anything above cost. It is disgusting to choose to spend money on ads for a kickstarter when that money could have gone into the game's actual budget, no matter how small.

EDIT: The whole point is that crowdfunding skirts a LOT of laws concerning consumer protections. "We" did this, but it would have never happened if people didn't take advantage of it's unregulated nature.

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Crow

I like games. I love MMORPGs.

Every project is different. Enjoyment can be found in PvP-centric games as well as in purely Carebear-focused worlds. If mechanics, setting, world-building and all that is good, it really doesn't matter what kind of game it is.

Individuals who limit themselves based on buzzwords like "PvP" or "FFA" or whatever are only harming themselves. Passing judgement while simultaneously refusing to even try to understand a game's mechanics and systems is just downright terrible.

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J.T.

Camelot Unchained has a lot of non-PvP interest because of the mechanical tie-in that is so promising. Namely the crafting system that all gear and Realm progress is founded upon with a pure player class that supplements it. There is really nothing like that outside of say Minecraft.

And with that it gives the non-PvPer in a friend/guild group full of PvPers an available option to participate in this game with the other group mates. They protect their crafter friend in any dire combat situation, in turn the crafter supplies them with the necessities to fight and win.

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deekay_plus

this is more or less why my friends are interested in it - a game that caters to their desire to be fulltime dedicated crafters.

tho i'd disagree that minecraft offers that in this sense since everyone player in minecraft is expected to craft for themselves primarily.

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adri

Same for a friend of mine. He doesn't like PvP (aka killing other player) but he likes healing and crafting and CU is perfect for a person who just wants to be the friendly neighborhood healer.

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deekay_plus

while i plan to play CU at launch in part becuase of mark's comments here on massively and in part because some friends are interested in it for it's less pure pvp or gtfo elements, i don't expect it to last us very long at all tho i am fond of parts of the design docs for it and very much in line with my own preexisting design docs in some places.

playing against type i guess would be most mmo's i've played in the last 11 or so years since i moved from l2 to wow tbc and continued to play wow clone after wow clone while occasionally smashing my head on corpse loot gank boxes. neither of which are my ideal set up.

and in some of the cases of the wow clones playing very much against the intentions of said game and trying to play them more like i did lineage 2 - tho developers of those games very proactively and progressively stamped out any possibilities of doing those beyond completly anonymous and meaningless world pvp.

which survival games have become everything i've loathed about gank boxes but with a grind that often doesnt survive early access patches or server admins losing interest or the server needing to be reset every soo many days of uptime for stability reasons. which corpse loot + naked anon random ganking + overly grindy is the epitomy of what i loathe in gank box mmo's going back a decade now.

so if anything playing against my "type" has become my "type". becasue really no mmo companies are catering to me and people like me for the most part or at best in limited fashion like say with archeage to a limited extent.

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Pandalulz

Since everything on the horizon is some variation of FFA PVP sandbox, I don't have a lot else to follow in the MMO space as I basically refuse to PVP at all anymore. That being said, I like LOOKING at Crowfall a lot because I really dig it's art aesthetic.

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Crow

You have quite the broad and interesting definition of "FFA PvP".

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Pandalulz

Yeah, I know, I'm broadly generalizing. Any PVP that's not purely having to push a button to enter an instanced BG and I can completely avoid is more PVP than I'm willing to put up with anymore, because I don't enjoy it and will gladly avoid it at all costs.

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Crow

When your playtime is driven by the things you won't do, you've already lost the battle between enjoyment and frustration.

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Pandalulz

Yeah, I know. My playtime is driven by the things I know I do enjoy so I don't waste my time on the things I don't. And I've pretty clearly over the years decided on the things I don't enjoy, mostly because the few friends I have had in the genre seem to enjoy doing exactly those things. After I've thrown myself at PVP centric games and PVP servers for years and years to try to play with my friends and hated almost every minute of it, I've decided to stop doing that to myself. I still follow a lot of the stuff discussed here on MOP, looking for the silver linings in these game, trying to be optimistic, but there still hasn't been a lot out there I look forward to. I'm also aware I'm not really the demographic, and that too is fine. I'm just being honest.

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Schmidt.Capela

I'm in the same boat. Spent about a decade playing everything in the MMO genre to see what I could enjoy, and the main takeaway from that time is that I can never, ever, enjoy any kind of non-consensual PvP in any guise, or even consensual PvP that has power progression. While I love PvP, that applies exclusively to Arena-style PvP without any kind of persistent power progression at all.

So, given that PvP in MMOs tends to be either non-consensual or plagued with power progression, I nowadays tend to flat out refuse to even try any MMO where I can't simply opt out of any and all PvP, and what's more, without having any disadvantage or handicap due to that choice.

BTW: I believe most of the potential MMO player base has similar feelings about PvP, and that is why so many PvP-centric MMOs fail and why most games with a choice of server type tend to have more players in the PvE-type servers. Heck, the rampant match fixing and rules exploiting that often happens within any PvP mode that use rewards as a lure shows how few players are there to actually engage in PvP; more than once I've seen people who attempted to engage in PvP in what was nominally a PvP mode get ample verbal abuse from their own team for hindering the "farming".

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Crow

See, those are a ton of assumptions. That's my point. Judge games based on their mechanics and whole self, not on what buzzwords used. Is it likely you'd enjoy a pure FFA PvP Grindbox? probably not. However, in truth there are very few pure FFA PvP boxes like that because very few people, overall, enjoy such.

So the whole thing is kind of a red herring. Pointing at "FFA PvP" is simplistic. There are as many flavors of PvP as there are games. Some include PvP and some do not.

But at the end of the day I just wonder what you're playing, now?

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Pandalulz

Right now I'm playing WoW, abandoned my old characters on a PVP server I used to play with IRL friends because I don't like constantly looking over my shoulder and rolled anew on a PVE server, where I'm trying to very slowly work my way through all of the story in the zones. I like FFXIV's and ESO's lack of hard factions so I can play with anybody at anytime and not worry about it. I like doing casual PVE co-op group content, story stuff, and sometimes like a bit of a mindless grind just to relax. I don't have real friends in game anymore so I'm not looking to do challenging content or revolve my time around the game. I've also never liked PVP because I don't have the time to get LEET at it, not just in skill, but too lazy to go rebinding keys or whatever else it requires to not suck. I also have very little time to play at night after the kid goes to bed so I look for something with easy to jump into game play. That's who I am and what I'm into.

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Crow

Ah, so with all respect you're part of the demographic who wants to be able to play long-burn, investment-focused MMORPGs but you don't have the time anymore so you want games that allow you to log in and out quicker while also having some fun.

In all honesty, you're barking up the wrong tree with MMORPGs in the first place.

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Pandalulz

Yep, that's exactly the case and I know it, and I'll keep enjoying the games that cater to that. There are enough of them out there to keep me going for a bit and they keep dropping content to keep me happy. The market has rolled around so the new breed are more PVP focused and I'm fine with that. As I said above, I'm not the demographic, and they aren't games I want to play. Doesn't make them bad, just not for me. I'll probably never play any of the Dark Souls games either, but I'm glad they exist nevertheless.

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deekay_plus

the only mode crowfall is planned to launch with is literally "FFA PVP" mode. the rest will come later.

that's artcraft's words not anyone else's.

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Crow

I wasn't aware that Crowfall was the only new game coming out.

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deekay_plus

as someone who uses chrome mainly for google services that google intentionally breaks their functionality in other browsers, i can tell you that even google's own webapps often are broken in chrome :D

>mfw google breaks webapp in firefox
>i'll just spin up chrome for this
>completely broken in chrome
>guess it's back to firefox!

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Pandalulz

Once you responded, I followed the email link, and now it's there in Chrome. Just one of those mornings I guess. I guess if I click inside the box before the page finishes loading completely, it breaks the animation where the Post Comment button slides down and shows up.

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deekay_plus

haha it's chrome. half the time it's a broken non compliant with standards mess that eats ALL THE RAM. lol.

but if a website crashes it only crashes one tab instead of the whole browser unlike firefox so that's nice! :D

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Schmidt.Capela

That is the tradeoff. Opening every tab as a new process, like Chrome does, means both becoming a memory hog if you open many tabs and protecting each tab from what happens in each other tab.

As a result, I tend to open "common" pages in Firefox, while opening those that are either bugged or just a huge resources drain in Chrome (so I can kill it individually if needed be).

Caveat: my Firefox doesn't have the Flash plugin at all, which helps in keeping pages in it light and bug-free.

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Armsbend

In my opinion the reason CU is being given immunity towards more criticism is because their team has been upfront and very clear on what their game was going to be about. I find too many open development games are willing to scrap everything they dreamed up in their head as long as someone is loud enough and has a big enough checkbook to have an icon on their forum account.

I appreciate the artist's vision more than my own (and certainly more than people I don't know) and that's the sense I get with City State.

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Sleepy

I solo'd Eve for about a year - I used to do a lot of mucking around in nullsec in a cloaked ship. I don't think I ever fired a shot in anger at another player, but just surviving out there and managing to haul stuff back to sell was tense stuff (pre-wormhole space).

Whole swathes of nullsec were practically empty at the time, the hardest part was getting back through the low sec systems.

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