No, Star Citizen’s 3.0 alpha isn’t ready yet, but here’s how to ‘breathe’ while you wait

3.0 when?

We still don’t know. Star Citizen’s Eric Kieron Davis begins the latest Around the Verse with a Burndown segment, noting that the team’s reduced the must-fix list down by 18. That means there are 76 critical issues left to fix, unless they find more while preparing the Evocati tester build, and they will.

In the meantime, the rest of the weekly episode is all about stamina — literally, how to breathe. And also how not to suffocate in the void of space, though space isn’t your only consideration; a player will have to carefully consider how much effort he’s expending to keep his stamina levels in check. Running out of stamina and blowing through your oxygen will directly impact your ability to play the game, from jumping and shooting to getting your suit on right before you’re spaced.

Check the whole episode out below. Bet you can’t stop thinking about breathing now.

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156 Comments on "No, Star Citizen’s 3.0 alpha isn’t ready yet, but here’s how to ‘breathe’ while you wait"

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Space Captain Zor

I just wanna know why the comment section below became a fight of CSE vs CIG when no two game companies or their projects are anything remotely alike nor will they progress anywhere close to something similar. Not even if the exact same human beings were working at each company at the same time in some mirror universe.

Game development is absolute chaos. It is just beyond absurd to say something like “well, Studio A did this thing with this much money and this many people and this very different scope and took this long to do it. Why can’t Studio B do that too with this completely different game and completely different people and completely different budget and completely different scope?” Why is everyone arguing this unwinnable debate?

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zeko_rena

You can’t get refunds on individual ships right?
Its all or nothing?

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shear

You can.

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Norbert Lichtenecker

You Guys talk about fking Alpha 3, where the fk is the complete Game? as I said at the beginning of this overhyped Game, this is the biggest Ripoff in Gaming History, the Game will never be Released it is a Massive Money Grave. Adding pooping is fking Hilarious, and you Guys fall for it, ROFL

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Roger Melly

I wonder if all the money invested in this is just being swallowed up by a black hole .

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Oleg Chebeneev

From Chris with love:

comment image

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

That Stamina system would be a welcome addition to any FPS attempting to be somewhat realistic. Time for those damn bunny-hoppers to GTFO. :) I’m also impressed that they’re tackling the hook breathing techniques for piloting at high g-forces. I can’t say that I’ve seen any flight sim tackle that. I’m also glad to see such a core system like this coming online.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

on second thought lots of games have stamina meters and aren’t nearly as cumbersome as arma’s.

still bunny hopping is a solved issue for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng ass time now in various ways that stamina meters don’t even really come to mind wrt to it in my mind at least.

and definitely not worth talking about envrionement type conditional procs or stamina mechanic for a full half hour. >>

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Joe Blobers

Quote Dekay_plus:”and definitely not worth talking about envrionement type conditional procs or stamina mechanic for a full half hour.”

CIG make around an ATV per week. Just up to end of 2018, this is 68 ATV’s equal to +20 hours of video and interview…. equal to the duration of many solo game today…
Now count the hundreds of various type of com done during the past 5 years.

There is just no way a project can throw many subjects interesting equally many people and this 30 minutes per weeks during 5 or 6 years. Hence the focus on two or even 1 feature, explained as deep as possible… which turn away some people because to technical or… a bit boring…. because what we want.. this is 3.0 right? :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

then maybe they shouldn’t say so much if they aren’t saying so much of substance?

kind of like your spam in these articles…

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus”

I provide an alternate and far to be off ground observation about lenght and contant of ATV’s in general… You over react man.

I let you count the number of your comments in the past 3 months versus mine if your spam counter is based on that (and far to be the definition of spam)… you could be surprised Deekay :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you post mostly incoherent irrelevant nonsense.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”you post mostly incoherent irrelevant nonsense.”

Guetting salty won’t help you avoid facts, numbers, pure logic and constructive alternate opinon :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

the logic of your posts is to ramble me to death with irrelevencies and ignorant excuses and false equivalencies.

you’ve been at this since i went to bed last night. go to bed.

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zeko_rena

Joe is a virtual A.I
He does not need sleep :)

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”go to bed”

… That’s all you serve us to support your fallacious sentence of “irrelevencies/excuses/false equivalencies”? :)

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

Agreed on the half hour part. :) They should have cut the two people that went into camera-swap mode every other word, as it was distracting, annoying, and they didn’t say anything that the first 3 people didn’t cover. I think it was just additional filler to a filler update.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they reallllllly need to get 3.0 out the door. >>

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

most fps’s solved bunny hopping ages ago.

i see stamina metter and what comes to mind is arma3. and not in a good way.

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Schlag Sweetleaf

.

huff on this, citizens.gif
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Melissa McDonald

just a thought

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Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

The stamina system is a core mechanic to the game, so getting this online earlier rather than later is better. This affects FPS, piloting, exploration, the entire game really. There are other things they have added that I think should have waited, but this, IMO, is a good addition.

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Lethality

Sorry, can’t let this slide.

So let me get this straight… they finally implement the first real deep game mechanic system, and you’re going to bitch and whine about it? When I’m pretty sure just last week everyone was bitching and whining due to lack of any real deep game mechanics currently implement?

Oh, and you could have been playing Star Marine for a year. Not a game? Do explain.

So, please explain — in detail — WHAT SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE?

p.s. what if I told you this is a core mechanic to the entire game, and if you watch the video (and hopefully understand the words they use) it extends to supporting and tracking things far beyond “breathing”.

Estranged
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Estranged

Lethality, I was able to workout and improve stamina in GTA over a decade ago…

Could be lazy and gain weight, lose stamina.

Just another example of Star Citizen inventing the wheel.

Deep?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Estranged:”Just another example of Star Citizen inventing the wheel.”

CIG did not invented wheel… they are much clever, they use it :)

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Lethality

We’re talking about Star Citizen, so you can take that to mean “in Star Citizen”.

(Comment edited by mod.)

Estranged
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Estranged

Lethality, no need to display your pseudo elite persona.

We are basically jabbing at the “Star Citizen is the most ambitious game in history” meme around the interwebs.

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Lethality

Do you now understand what I said?

Estranged
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Estranged

I am omnipotent, of course.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

do you really seriously believe this is the first breathing mechanic system let alone that it adds “real” depth?

(Comment edited by mod.)

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Lethality
deekay_plus
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deekay_plus
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Lethality
deekay_plus
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deekay_plus
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Lethality

Here, I’ll take the high road. I’ll be the bigger man.

My comment about “the first deep game mechanic” was in the context of Star Citizen. Would you not agree with that? Do you know of a deeper system and mechanic so far implemented? Something that directly relates and is foundational to gameplay?

You could make the argument about the flight model. But this would be a close second.

So we had someone complaining that they should “have a working game” before adding stamina. Which is the insanity I responded to, since it literally is the first gameplay mechanic with the depth it has.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

there’s nothing particularly deep about this stuff in itself or in it’s relation to the game even within that context.

and they do need desperately to demonstrate actual working game loops beyond what they have shown so far, which is ankle deep and vague at best.

they can’t even show more than rudimentary bullshot scripted ai to the point they started opting to having human beings fill in for mobs in their presentations.

as much as the ship ai in pirate swarm looks promising, the fact CIG refuses to use AI in their presentations is a red flag about the growing questions about gameplay loops.

which we can infer the probably gameplay loop that will eb available in 3.0 and yet that raises even more questions about what that means for the average backer with nothing more than aurora or a few dogfighters.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus: “as much as the ship ai in pirate swarm looks promising, the fact CIG refuses to use AI in their presentations is a red flag about the growing questions about gameplay loops.”

AI is already a reality since several years with Arena Commander and some PU missions, with different reactions and “skills”.

3.0 is not the buddy or ennemy AI buddy or ennemy (already available as you said). This is the trading AI and workers AI at Levski. Around 200 according to CIG.

Others AI will come with 3.1 and 3.2.
As you understand it, 3.0 is already a major and pretty complex patch. Adding more is not the best way to reduce total bugs count.

Just let 3.0 be a test bed for more players interaction. AI buddy will be a nice addition in next patch.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

lol what kind of worthless made up excuses are these?

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”lol what kind of worthless made up excuses are these?”

… There is no excuse given or provided so do not look further Deekay :)

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Roger Melly

“they finally implement the first real deep game mechanic system”

I wasn’t aware they had done that yet . 3.0 isn’t out yet as far as I know .

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Lethality

Then there should be no reason to bitch about it either yet, amirite?

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Roger Melly

Well I suppose they could bitch about its lateness .

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Armsbend

“So, did we make any progress week?”
*chuckle* “What do you think?”
“So what do we tell them?”

“I dunno just make up some new bullshit. Ummm…breathing. Tell them we are adding breathing to the game. Hey are we still on for drinks at 3?”

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Lethality

Need look no further than your post – players are the problem. Everywhere.

Estranged
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Estranged

Armsbend, did you work out in GTA? I can see you pumping some iron.

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Melissa McDonald

I’m down for happy hour, sure. Beats reality.

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Armsbend

I’ve been waiting at this table for an hour and a half now.

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Melissa McDonald

call me crazy, but…

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Roger Melly

Why do you want to be called Crazy Butt ?

;)

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Paragon Lost

All the money, all the resources and they’re still dealing with that many critical bugs just for this release? Seriously, I want these guys to succeed but at times it becomes rather hard to keep rooting for them.

Cyclone Jack
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Cyclone Jack

Well, to be partially fair, they were doing pretty good until they went to GamesCom and the public found a number of new bugs that were added to the list. Are these all stoppers? Doubtful.

I do think that they should focus on the stoppers and then release to Evocati. More bugs are going to be found no matter how much they try and polish 3.0, so get it out to a wider test base sooner rather than delaying for minor big fixes.

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Paragon Lost

I like Chris, always was a fan. I just think he needs to have someone rein him in a bit and get more focused. I think they’re spread themselves out too much and are in jeopardy of alienating fans and losing the core of what they’re trying to do.

Reminds me a bit of George R.R. Martin’s writing. I love massive books to read with multiple characters, plots etc. George obviously loves the world and stories he’s telling, but he needs an editor to say “George, we can tell some of these stories later, you’re getting to the point that the books are beyond massive and we’re not moving the story much by the end of each book”.

Chris is running into the similar issue if you ask me, you can tell he loves the genre and what he’s doing but man he’s just allowing his dream to bloat up and spread out so far and wide that it’s running into the potential issue of getting beyond his control and grasp. He needs someone to play a bit more hardball with him and get him to take a bit more of a focused and disciplined approach.

That’s just my old man’s opinion, as I said I’m a fan. Hopefully he pulls it off, I’d love to see CS become all that he wants it to become.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Paragon lost:”they’re still dealing with that many critical bugs just for this release?”

3.0 is not just the patch coming after 2.6.1. This is a major step with 40 screen pages of features.
The further we go with major patch following 3.0 (3.1, 3.2, 3.3, 4.0) the more “polished” we will get them. Polish does not mean bugs free but allowing the best experience possible for people discovering Star Citizen.
What is acceptable in 2.0 is not for 3.0. Being much more complex, means more bugs more often. This is mandatory to iron out as many as possible. Otherwise we will be served with: “This much funds and we got that”…

Players not participating to crowdfunded projects or Alpha do have others expectations. You can’t get more support with more bugs, especially when players are expected to play more and more together in a bigger “universe”.

With upcoming major patch adding jobs, many will see SC as being more advanced, hence “completed” as per their own individual expectations to play a specific branch of activities.
The closer CIG from Beta is (expected with 4.0) the less players will forgive crash or gameplay breaking bugs… even if you write in big bold letter “Alpha for tests purposes and feedback”

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Lethality

How long has it taken your favorite game to go from conception, have a studio built around it, to complete commercial release?

(oh, make that your favorite TWO games, since that’s what we have here.)

They are still well within the tolerance of development time for comparable projects. If not ahead.

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Paragon Lost

See my other reply to you.

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Melissa McDonald

*puts on acolyte robe*
*adjusts priestess tiara*
*stares in mirror*
*gets psyched up with religious fervor*

YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT THE MOST AMBITIOUS COMPLEX AMAZING GAME EVER ATTEMPTED BY THE HAND OF MAN AND IT’S BOUND TO HAVE BUGS FROM THE COMPLEXITY OF THE AWESOMENESS AND AMAZING COMPLEXITY AND AMBITION OF THE AMBITIOUSNESS!

*end apologetics*
*discards high priestess robes of partisanship*
*wonders if Netflix is even worth it anymore*

;-)

Estranged
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Estranged

Melissa, I have a slight RP crush on you now. Sorry, had to share.

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Darkwalker75 .

Yes, all the money, all the resources and they are still dealing with that many critical bugs just for this release.

Normally development happens behind closed doors until its nearly complete and the issues we see here are for that reason never known, but they do in fact happen all the time.
The SC development is showing us how game development actually works, they are showing us what normally happens behind closed doors.
And they are showing us everything, both the good and the bad.

For most people this is a wake up call and its a wake up call they don’t like.
I can certainly understand that people don’t like what’s happening, but whether they like it or not people need to realize that this is how things actually work in game development.

I’m not saying everything is golden with what they do, there are certainly plenty of things to criticize with things that could or should have been done different and I have no problem with the criticism as long as its presented in a reasonable and constructive manner that allows for civilized discussion.

But the constant complaining(from people who think they know better but in reality don’t) about the time it takes and the delays and using the amount of money the have gotten and the number of developers working on it as ground for claiming they could do things better or faster are quite frankly getting not just tiresome, but ridiculous and repetitive.
It frankly reminds me of the kids in the backseat of the car asking “Are we there yet?” every 5 minutes and complaining about how log it takes to get wherever they are going rather than enjoying the trip.

And it shows a(possibly significant) lack of understanding or willingness to understand that just throwing more money and people at a problem does not necessarily mean it can be done faster or better and in many cases actually has the opposite effect.

For those who don’t like the time it takes, the solution is easy.
Stop watching/following the development and come back in a couple years to see how things are, otherwise you just have to accept that it takes the time it takes.

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shear

Stop watching, go do something else, come back in a couple of years, but don’t you dare get a refund, you leave your money in this project, it’s theirs now!

This won’t last another couple of years.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”This won’t last another couple of years”

Yea we know… 90 days top! :)

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Roger Melly

I think he means it won’t last another 2 years before people get fed up with the game not being released not that it will last another 2 years before people get fed up with 3.0 being released .

Having said that with Star Citizen’s shambolic development you never know .

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Paragon Lost

Actually City State Games has shown us how actual mmorpg game development should work. RSI has shown us how not to do it.

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Darkwalker75 .

Did they show us everything they did and how they did it like CIG does, or did they just show snippets here and there?

Besides what’s right or good for one game may not be so for another game.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

CIG shows a very romantic version of game development at best. and certainly not even remotely “everything”.

you’re living in a fantasy world if you think CIG is particularly open with their development.

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”you’re living in a fantasy world if you think CIG is particularly open with their development.”

At the same time, there is no contest for the Best Damned Open Development Game… :)
CIG deliver hundreds of comms in 5 years with indeep explanation of features, bugs and game development tools usage. This is very informative… not all the time but still informative.

Enough to shoot date for patch release? no… hence the burndown report.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

speaking alot doesn’t mean you say much worth saying.

CIG has a high noise to signal ratio. most of their comms are word count padded or time count padded to degrees comparable to total biscuit videos. XD

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”CIG has a high noise to signal ratio”

Correct but are they paying anyone to do so?

They are two source of information from/about CIG (beside forums/Reddit/Youtube):

1- Official information to backers (ATv’s and so on)
2- Press relying information with or without comments beside the relied subject.

Point 1 is part of the kickstarter. You can disagree about the notion of transparency you are looking versus what provide CIG but this is due to backers… and requested by them if I look at just SC Reddit section.

Point 2 is handle by… rules of communication by hundred of independant companies. CIG is not paying them.

For info, a rough estimate based on numbers of Press articles about SC or naiming SC, in English language (google extract):

– 2014: 66
– 2015: 169
– 2016: 187
– 2017: 274 (end of August)… + 70% more than full 2016 year.

Duplicate that in various “main language (German, Spanish, italian, French, Japanese, Chinese…) and you got an idea of the visibility of CIG… with just Subscribers dedicated marketing budget… and 3.0 and 3.1 with TrakIR like features and face expressions tracking together with mining and bigger world are not even there.

Call all that noise at your leisure Deekay… Totalbiscuit videos… how many Millions Dollars? :)

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Lethality

You’re right… Blizzard is open! Er, I mean BioWare! No… Bungie is the one! Hang on… it’s Riot! Crap… Guerrilla? Hmmm I know it must be one of them… Rockstar?

Ah, looks like CIG is the most open of them all.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i mean you just listed a bunch of companies that never made a pretense of being open while ignoring a large slew of studios that are much more open.

but ok.

i mean there’s literally another example of a much more open and forthcoming studio in this thread you ignored in your quest to cherry pick your way into winning an imaginary contest that exists only in the minds of CIG and their fanboys.

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Lethality

Really? I missed it. Where? And surely you aren’t talking about CSE…. because someone else shouted it? I debunked it. You have more to say? Say it.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

no you didn’t debunk anything.

CSE is demonstratably more open than CIG. in past articles i’ve named a number of studios that are also more open than CIG.

blathering for hours on video every week with cherry picked romanticized footage is not being open.

detailing in advance what is causing delays is being open. which is what CSE and other studios do as a routine for their early access/in development games that CIG refuses to do.

they give us part of the picture but only part. and only after the fact.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”detailing in advance what is causing delays is being open”

This is call Burndown report. There is also another report giving more details with the type of features being completed or needing more work. Available since months.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

nope it’s not.

that is filmed on monday and posted on thursdays. it’s as worthless a bit of comms as any.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”that is filmed on monday and posted on thursdays”
What the day of movie capture have to do with the facts they DO communicate since months with various level of details? … So you ask for comms and call it worthless when they provide it.
Damned if they do, Damned if they don’t :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

no because you don’t even comprehend what people are saying is the difference in your rush to defend it.

other studio’s like CSE to name one communicate delays and challenges clearly and well in advance without burying it in piles of useless noise.

CIG expects awards for relaying out of date information at the last minute well after the deadlines have passed. and people like you happily give it to them and act like they are better than anyone else at this for it.

it’s pretty fucking gross actually.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Dekay_Plus:”and act like they are better than anyone else”

The level of communication provided weekly, with two different reports specific to patch under work, does not please you. You call it useless noise… Fine. CIG heard you, they do not give date anymore… but it is still not matchsing your expectations.

I think everybody understood. You want 3.0 Now and don’t care about whatever is done or said.
…but your tendency to put words in someone mouth that have never been said is gross actually. :)

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Lethality

Oh really? How let’s talk about Camelot Unchained and how late that game is.

NOW WHAT

Estranged
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Estranged

Lethality, they don’t have a coffer full of gold and minions mining more gold 24/7. Apples and Oranges. CSI had hiring issues. Roberts has bloat issues.

Estranged
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Estranged

Edit: CSE

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Joe Blobers

Quote Estranged: “CSI had hiring issues”

Say that to the guys part of a +400 team who started with 12 guys as well as to Dennis Crow, former Grand Theft Auto V and World of Warcraft producer who just join Star Citizen team.

Too bad they did not read your comment first and they misinterpreted CIG intention to hire them :)

Estranged
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Estranged

Joe, I autocorrected to the wrong company name. Was meant to be CSE. All is well in the world now.

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Lethality

I’m not the one that brought it up.

Estranged
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Estranged

Lethality – right, would also embarrass Mark. He supports all projects.

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Lethality

Me too.

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Paragon Lost

Yes, they’re late too, difference is their communication, the break down where each bug etc stands is much more transparent. Also the amount of time and money are not the same.

I simply see CS as a company who is doing it in a much clearer, better fashion than RSI. Btw have you considered just not being such a caustic ass all the time? It would make discussions here much easier. I’m often in agreement with you but man your tendency to being offensive just gets old.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

CSE also discloses they will be late in advance of delays. not just after the ETA sails by.

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Space Captain Zor

I can just imagine the extra leeway the internet would give CIG if they gave real advance notice of delays… lol. My estimates would be about 0.6% additional. Even if they’d done so from 2014 onward.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

eh other companies get a lot more leeway from doing that.

delays are understandable. telling your backers only after the deadline passes not so much.

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Space Captain Zor

“other companies” yes, not CIG. The internet has decided CIG cannot have delays even if they tell us about them. They’ve raised too much money and/or have too many developers and/or have worked on it too long already for delays…

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

they’ve never been forthcoming about delays in the first place.

it’s the primary reason why they get such flack for the delays. becuase oh look the ETA passed and no deployment and no word from CIG about what’s going on…

they’ve been doing this since 2013.

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Joe Blobers

Paragon, I can’t resist to copy/paste wording splatch on the main CU web site:

Quote:
Building an MMORPG The Right Way

Over the coming months of development, anyone who chooses to become a Backer will see the impact of our efforts to build our tech the right way.We are building a game and engine from the foundation upwards. While that means we aren’t as focused on refined graphics, we’ve created a whole lot of interesting, useful, and unique tech. That’s what is truly important to us: that the game works well. That’s how we repay the trust shown to us by our Backers: We do things the right way from the start. Build the world you believe in, fight for supremacy, and support Camelot Unchained!

Beside the words on refined graphics, we could removed Camelot Unchained and replace it with Star Citizen.

The communications (technical, lore, goals) are at worst identical, CIG having a clear advantage in terms of frequency and contents quality due to dedicated Subscribers support.

Current bugs report details served by CIG together with burndown graph, provide, I think, enough details to backers. For those looking for more technical details that a majority of backers do not understand, there are also Bugsmasher video.

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Paragon Lost

You don’t read the weekly updates from CSE though MassivelyOP goes over a lot of them here on their site. The minute breakdown of what CSE is doing, where they are at etc to me is much clearer and cleaner Joe. Also I haven’t seen the feature creep issue happen over at CSE.

I want RDI and Star Citizen to be a success, I want to see a great space mmorpg released. I just can see how many people are growing more frustrated with how RDI is operating. I think I’m go to skip articles on SC though from now on, discussing is has gone beyond frustrating.

Estranged
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Estranged

Paragon – Mark’s email updates are basically small novels. He amazes me.

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Paragon Lost

Me too Estranged, me too. :)

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Lethality

I tend to respond this way because of the short quippy zinger comments you and others like to leave – with no substantiation or thought put into them.

If you’re going to say things like you did, then demonstrate specifically how CSE does it better. Demonstrate how they break down ‘where each bug stands’. Demonstrate what you mean by “actual mmorpg game development should work”.

By the way, I’m a backer, KS #92 to be exact :) So I’m eyeball deep in everything they do. And I’d disagree that I know anything more about what’s really happening with this project than any other.

Also, the amount of time… CIG has been at this only, maybe, 6 months longer than CSE. When you look at the actual scope of each game, if you’re going to call out CIG for being where they are – then we have to be absolutely outraged at where CSE is.

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Paragon Lost

Then you and I simply going to have to have a strong and total disagreement then. The constant and clear communication that CSE has offered is much better in my opinion than what I’ve seen from RDI. We’ll agree to disagree.

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shear

Where is CiG? After five years. Where do you think they are into the development % wise. Just an opinion will do. Your best guess. 10%? 20%?

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Darkwalker75 .

Where is CiG? After five years.

I would like to see you build up a company from a dozen people to 400+ while at the same time developing a game the scope of SC in less than five years.

There are games that had far smaller scope than SC and had the money and manpower to start full scare development(4-500 people) on day 1 and still took more than 5 years.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

not a single game ever developed starts with a team larger than what SC started with.

there is nothing at that stage that warrants having anymore people in game development.

but go on keep repeatedly demonstrating that you base your understanding of game development on making excuses for star citizen.

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”not a single game ever developed starts with a team larger than what SC started with.”

If you talk about Kikstarter project, most “companies” are made of even less than 12 or even 5 at start… and stay as such for the rest of the project.

SC have to be compared to Publishers in terms of budget and scope. Darkwalker is right.
Nobody talking about game development can’t compare apple and orange. Confirmed by arithmetic.
Notion of excuses to explain current development have nothing to do here. There is no need to cite excuses: rules of game development are enough to explain.

SC is currently around +428, have rebuilt Cryengine and have uptodate pipelines to make two Triple-A sharing the same assets.

Time + team size + tools + budget are intrinsically linked:

Nov. 2012 end of Kickstarter: around 12
2013: 48 (Austin: 34 – LA: 14)
2014: 161 (Austin: 55 – LA: 38 – Manchester: 68)
2015: 258 (Austin: 57 – LA: 41 – Manchester: 132 – Frankfurt: 28)
2016: 363 (Austin: 54 – LA: 64 – Manchester: 191 – Frankfurt: 54)
2017: 428 (April)

The team and tools they did not have up to 2015 will never be catched up.
Einstein is formal: time travel is not possible.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

having to mod even in house engines to suit a given game project is normal.

publisher games all start with teams of 5-20 too.

again useless and iirelevant numbers and claims.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”publisher games all start with teams of 5-20 too.”

… That is called the concept or design phase and is not related to core game development. You could have 10 years of concept phase… with zero core game development but a proof of concept.
But you are right, anyone with 20M$ and a team of 12 can release 2 Triple-A with scope never done before and none existing uptodate pipelines and game engine… You can throw away numbers and call them irrelevant claims.

What you are describing is nothing less than dreamland description or magic… not game development… or just for the sake to be “right” you forgot to mention that after the design phase.. Publishers have Billion of cash, thousands of developers and uptodate game engine and pipelines… So where are we now?:

SC can’t be compared to Publishers who have vast ressources at Day 1.
Call that irrelevant claims as well if you want.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

that is an actual part of development that is counted in teh development time for every single game ever made.

just because the fandom has some fantasy world narrative of how game development works based on only ever being exposed to star citizen doesn’t make this narrative true.

the only thing unusual for SC development process wise is the slow pace and being in development hell for several years while the lead threw shade at others claiming he could and was doing it faster cheaper and more profitable than anyone else. all while gaslighting his customer base with straight up lies about the state of progress on said development until after the self imposed deadline had passed and it became clear they were no where near the promised beta they continually claimed was becoming nearer during that period.

chris roberts claimed that the game was fully funded at 23 million dollars raised. that point was reached mere months after the kickstarter.

your posts as usual are hollow excuses and revisionist history.

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Joe Blobers

QUote Deekay-Plus:”was doing it faster cheaper and more profitable than anyone else… your posts as usual are hollow excuses and revisionist history”

Your opinion. Again I provide no excuses but facts and numbers in a context.

What was said:“Chris Roberts had stated that if at least $23 million could be raised over the course of the crowdfunding campaign, no outside investors’ or developers’ funding would be required. This goal was reached October 18, 2013”

You still want to pretend no scope changed happenned. Fine… Two Triple-A (even by sharing assets) can’t be done with 23M$… hence the pledges from backers… because players have a feeling it can’t be done with 23M$. And they are pretty right based on numbers and time needed to translate Design concept in final release.

You will see again excuses… But players are not looking for excuse to create something never done before.
The collective consciousness is more clever than you may think Deekay… and very difficult to obfuscate with “23 M$ funded”.
Time and context as usual.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

feature creep set in more than a couple years after that goal was reached.

there was literally a whole controversy about the alleged feature creep that was supposedly happened but didn’t.

it wasn’t until that was settled with many more millions funded that they began adding more features. most of which are trivial and minor, or otherwise simply having been silliness to teh game.

adn none of that is an excuse for teh state of the game as it stands right now or the development state. they have yet to even achieve teh basics of what was supposed to be due 3 years ago in full beta state.

they have yet to deliver even a demonstration of sq42 that is also 3 years overdue.

we are getting on a year late for a cut back 3.0 as it is. without demonstration of working pve in teh milestone. or demonstration of a complete gameplay loop. or demonstration of even rudimentary gameplay avenues like trading.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”what was supposed to be due 3 years ago in full beta state….sq42 that is also 3 years overdue”

You are stuck in your deny loop of none existing scope change… As long as you will keep looking at a Beta 3 years ago Deekay with such denial posture, you won’t pass the point of your event horizon and accretion disk of feature creep.

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Darkwalker75 .

Whether they do start with a larger team or not is irrelevant, the point here is that they can.

They may start with a small team, but as they are an established studio they have the money and manpower to start with as large a team as is needed and to ramp up development quickly depending on need.

CIG didn’t have that luxury, they had to establish and build up the company as well as hire people while at the same time developing the game.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

CR could more than afford to start with a larger team than he did too.

CR had the money to do so on his own. he had the money shortly after to ramp up production.

the can aspect is not been a problem financially speaking for CR and CIG.

it’s the “are we competent enough managers and business leaders to do it in a way that works well”

and for the first few years of development the answer was no. even while CR kept going to the press to lampshade publishers and brag about how he could do things faster and cheaper and more profitable during that period.

an dthusfar all of those interviews claiming those things have proven to be hollow. and no amount of excuses of scope change belie that, because the big expansive mmo part of the game was pitched in the fucking kickstarter video and was a far more prominent part of that video pitch than sq42 which is also severely late.

going back to the poor managerial and business practices involved. which is backed up everytime they show a new full wall sized mural in yet another meeting room or backdrop for an atv or w/e it may be. wastefulness and lack of respect for the backer’s dollar and time.

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Joe Blobers

Quote deekay_plus:”CR could more than afford to start with a larger team than he did too. CR had the money to do so on his own”

Which source do you use to say so?
Please do at least a bit of research and find a team who delivered in 5 years SC scope, starting from scratch with 35M$ in 2013… with ZERO visibility on what could be 2014. Don’t you remember that 50M$ was a joke for many, a king of Graal that was out of range or very speculative?
Up to 2015 they had not the team, tools and budget to deliver what we start to see now with 3.0… ans slowly grow from there to what they have today.

Yes they did pitch about SQ42 and MMO during kickstarter…. that does not mean they could deliver 3.0 41 screen pages features with 2014 team and funds…
The beauty of pitch is that you can then deliver anything that is legally remotely close to it. Here extract just to demonstrate, from the SC Kickstarter page:

“- A rich universe focused on epic space adventure, trading and dogfighting in first person.
– Single Player – Offline or Online(Drop in / Drop out co-op play)
– Persistent Universe (hosted by US)
Star Citizen is a destination, not a one-off story. It’s a complete universe where any number of adventures can take place, allowing players to decide their own game experience. Pick up jobs as a smuggler, pirate, merchant, bounty hunter, or enlist as a pilot, protecting the borders from outside threats. “

CR could have delivered a copy/past of Wing Commander, make 50 rough ships 3 D models in a year, with serviceable textures, no or very limited interior, PG planet, station and basic city. Throw in basic missions (move this, kill that, collect this)… and say: As pitched! Legally nobody could have said anything. He could have just run with the money….

What he did is the precise opposite. He follow the hard path, the one with headache and criticisms, a patch supported by backers since mid-2014 to follow this very path.

So in short your comment:”wastefulness and lack of respect for the backer’s dollar and time” is in total opposition with facts.

Again you can’t catch up time nor you can make SC scope Triple-A in less than 5 years unless you are a well established Publishers… and they don’t.

3.0 is coming not in 2025 or never and others patch will follow in 2018.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

in 6 going on 7 years sc hasn’t delivered much compared to comparable projects in terms of scope and size.

and this false dichotomy of somehow publisher studios having it easier is completely false. especially in the context of CR spending the first 2 years after kickstarter talking to every press outlet tht would talk to him about how he could deliver the game faster cheaper and more profitable than publishers.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”n 6 going on 7 years sc”

So you are back to the old joke of few guys in a room, talking about a project and making a proof of concept video and counting that phase as game development of today team of +428? Did you know about SC 6 or 7 years ago? Did you pledged for it at those times?

Publishers studios vs SC do not have an easier task.
At best it is more convenient or more efficient as you have Day 1 all company ressources to achieve a goal with a known budget, tools and devs ressources… Nothing that can be seen as comparable to SC project growing up from scratch to what it is today.

About profitability, Here is an extract of a whole article including a sentence about word “profitable”… :

“In the old model as a developer I would have captured 20 cents on the dollar,” Roberts said. “Ultimately that means I can make the same game for a fifth of the revenue, a fifth of the sales, and I can be more profitable, and I can exist on lower unit sales”
It was never implied to mean more profit for CR…. (in the context of a game development) but avoiding Publishers heavy middleman costs structure, which give an advantage to backers as each dollar is more profitable for them… and reality does prove this is correct.

Give 158M$ to a publisher… and you will get a 50M$ project game (because they DO have already all tools uptodate) everything else being swallowed by Middleman structure, Marketing…. and Shareholders.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

pls just stop demonstrating your ignorance about how game development and the business of games works.

it’s painful.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Dekkay_Plus:”it’s painful”

Suffer to get into contradictionDeekay because I feel no pain.
Thanks for caring :)

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Lethality

No, none of them do. Except all of them do. You know, studios with existing teams and pipelines and stuff.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

except no.

CIG is far from teh first AAA game project to go from non existent company to producing an AAA game out there. in fact pretty much every studio in existence has done this.

nevermind that typically a game project starts with 5-20 people sitting around spitballing ideas and design outlines and building a proof of concept prototype to pitch to investors/publishers/higher ups.

this is like game business 101 man.

and you should know better.

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Sur Couf

Just pick Beyond Good and Evil 2.

A title that many are looking for, that would make good cash for sure without to much risk.

Done by ubisoft. At least started by ubisoft in 2009. Seen a small trailer in 2016, no news so far about a release date. As usual, they will make what they call Beta 2 months before launch that could happen anytime between end of the year or in 2 years.

A company with a -gross profit- (not revenues) last fiscal year of 1 Billion$+ and thousands of employees.

8 years, still no sequel. Compared to CIG with around 15 employees 5 years ago and no dedicated game engine, no admin structure.

I am personnaly pretty amazed by what they have done till now but can understand also some type of frustration as many players are used to not participate so early in a game creation from scratch.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

beyond good and evil 2 was only just announced this year.

wtf are you on about.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_plus:”beyond good and evil 2 was only just announced this year”

Announced mean starting development in 2017? :)

Quote trustedreviews Aug. 2017: “Despite the new trailers, we don’t have any info on release date. Considering the game was first announced nine years ago, it’s anybody’s guess. But it looks like Ubisoft is well and truly committed to getting this game to market, so we have some hope that it will arrive in the next couple of years”

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

nine years ago it was a part time pet project for a single employee.

but yes, there would be development put into the game before it was announced. ffs. they demonstrated a working demo on par with star citizen’s 3.0 demos when it was officially announced.

you think you’re being clever but you really aren’t. you think you have a gotcha but you really don’t.

it’s only in your only mind that this matters or is relevant.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Dekkay_Plus:”nine years ago it was a part time pet project for a single employee.”

So Ubisoft gave the lead to make a Triple-A to One man nine years ago. And then in 2017 they “demonstrated a working demo on par with star citizen’s 3.0”

Leave cleverness aside and let’s focus on providing us a gotcha to explain: How a single guy did that… a demo on par with SC 3.0… ?

Beside that everybody looking at this demo can see the difference with 3.0.

Do we have nice textures and feeling of scale. Definitively yes….

– Does the ship is externally as complex as an Aurora or Constellation? What I see is a model less complex than a Nox.
– Does Ships have 3d interior with flight UI? Radar and sensors? Functionning doors and turret, several seats with different functions?
– Can the monkey take off/ land anywhere on the planet and walk along beside flying over land?
… There are 41 screen pages of features for just 3.0… I let the courageous do continue the comparison… knowing that we will be served with an “irrelevant and excuses” sentence :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

you are and idiot.

and an ignorant one at that.

please educate yourself.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”you are and idiot.”

Still the idiot would like to have answer to legitimate questions expressed above… just to get a fragment of a self-proclaimed depositary of educated answers about internal undisclosed and controversial Ubisoft business plan.

Did the Beyond Good and Evil 2 demo was done by one man and how is it comparable to 3.0 with a ship which have zero interior/features and the complexity of a basic ground vehicle the size of a motorbike?

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Lethality

Lol no it wasn’t.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_and_Evil_2

Its development was characterized in the media by uncertainty, doubt and rumours about the game’s future, until it was officially announced at Ubisoft’s E3 2017 conference, although no release window or target platform has been revealed.

Rumors about a sequel began to circulate around 2007, starting with a Nintendo Power interview with Ancel who stated he was working on a new project that was very personal to him, and mentioned his hopes to reuse Jade, the player-character from Beyond Good & Evil, in a future project without changing her personality.[4] Ancel said in a May 2008 interview with the French magazine Jeuxvideo.fr that the Beyond Good & Evil sequel had been in pre-production for a year, but was yet to be approved by Ubisoft.

everything in 2007 and for a while was nothing more than a single lead developer musing out loud with his wishful thinking about his part time on the clock personal project.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Deekay_Plus:”everything in 2007 and for a while was nothing more than a single lead developer musing out loud with his wishful thinking about his part time on the clock personal project”

No words on wiki about the legend of the solo man developing a Triple-A… But may Ancel said it into another sourcable media (?)…just this wiki sentence that refer to “personnal”:

Quote: “Ancel who stated he was working on a new project that was very personal to him”

Much more interesting:
Quote: “Rayman Legends (2013) which enabled them to produce tools that would help with the production of Beyond Good and Evil 2”

Quote: “Ancel and the Ubisoft Montpellier team started building a solar system simulation tool about three years prior to the E3 2017 reveal”

The man who blow away even CR who need a team of +428 to create a triple-A, Super Ancel was in fact not as alone that it was stated… Getting tools and support from Ubisoft Montpellier, probably another loanely guy looking for something to do because Ubisoft left him without a job during his spare time :)

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”10%? 20%?”

Are you playing the “tip of the iceberg” game on purposes?
Giving percentage is useless. You could see 10% and missed the real 90% underneath….

What games are you talking about, SQ42 Chapter 1 (Solo) or Star Citizen (MMO)?

Both are sharing the same assets. It have been stated that SQ42 will not be disclosed before launch or only to Press with a Triple-A quality vertical slice… just before release. That does not mean we could not see short video not disclosing too much of SQ42 in the meantime or that a schedule of release won’t be provided to backer this year….

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shear

Camelot Unchained didn’t raise 159 mil, the studio doesn’t have 400+ people working on it. They also, to my knowledge, aren’t claiming they will release something on a particular date and then either completely go dark or just simply move the date…

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Paragon Lost

They also don’t suffer from the creep of additional features that RSI has a bad case of. :/

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Lethality

Sorry, you can’t move the goalposts…

What does the money or number of employees have to do with it? CU and SC aren’t even in the same league in terms of scope, graphical fidelity or technology implementation.

And CSE most certainly have claimed beta dates — several times — and moved them. It’s all the same – all part of game development everywhere. I don’t like it, and I don’t believe it has to be exactly that way – sometimes I feel it’s used as a crutch. But no one has ever built a Star Citizen or a Camelot Unchained before.

Anyway, you can’t with a straight face say CIG has ever ‘gone dark’ – they post AT LEAST one piece of content per day every week, and have been doing that for pretty much 5 years. And their developers are active in Spectrum chat.

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shear

“What does the money or number of employees have to do with it? CU and SC aren’t even in the same league in terms of scope, graphical fidelity or technology implementation.”

You are the one who wanted to talk about them, you are the one who basically compared them by involving this game into the conversation.

Yes, they had. In 2016 in dec there as no 3.0 and there was nothing about it from them either, when they knew full well it’s not coming out but fuck the holiday season was on and the money was rolling in.

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”In 2016 in dec there as no 3.0 and there was nothing about it from them either”

The non existence of 3.0 is only in the Clown ranting and “anon source”…. In short the live demo we saw end of 2016 was a mirage? +37.000 Twichers and backers attending the show did not saw it. Youtube video are fake?
You can’t make live demo without having some code running…

Current 3.0 is much bigger than 3.0 demo end of 2016… + 40 screens pages of features.

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Lethality

You’re reading words in your head that were never spoken. Read more carefully the conversation in which you find yourself.

But carry on.

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shear

“Oh really? How let’s talk about Camelot Unchained and how late that game is.”

There you brought the game into the conversation. You essentially compared the games when you brought it into the conversation.

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Paragon Lost

I think he’s talking about how I compared how I thought that City State Games was doing it correctly to Darkwalker75 , versus what we’re seeing from RDI.

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Lethality

Try reading just a teensy teensy bit higher.

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Carebear

Quiz: How many Ships they will release for sale before they fix those 76 critical bugs?

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Patreon Donor
Schlag Sweetleaf

.

42 sc.gif
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A Dad Supreme

“NO, STAR CITIZEN’S 3.0 ALPHA ISN’T READY YET, BUT HERE’S HOW TO ‘BREATHE’ WHILE YOU WAIT”
==========
Buy another ship?

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Patreon Donor
Yuri Geinish

Get a bank loan to buy more jpegs.

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Koshelkin

I wonder if they’ll manage to release this fabled update before 2018.

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shear

No way, I’d love to see it, but no way, unless they will cut even more content out of it.

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Reselect Name

I love watching these dev videos.

One SC dev video is better than a whole Derek Smart game.

Wildstar best game ever!

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shear

Man, that stamina crap… :D

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Joe Blobers

Quote:”Man, that stamina crap”

New comments from Cyclone Jack and Lethality about implementation of this mechanism on FPS and PU are pretty straight forward.
Stamina is mandatory… it is indeed implemented in major FPS and MMO, somehow.

Together with oxygen and Radioactive/Toxic environment (who remember the radioactive zone with artifact in Stalker… that was a great part of the game very special experience). Combinaison of all allow different gameplay experience based on locations/circumstances.

Like eveything, all is about balance. CIG stated numerous time that they are looking to find a balance between realism and fun.

If you call “crap” the current implementation, keep in mind that for tests purpose they have to shorten effects. Nobody (and Q&A first) want to spend an hour to deplete oxygen or run kilometers for Stamina.

The current duration are shorter than needed… and video extract are done to highlight those effects. They are just variable in an XML file that can be changed with few keystrokes.

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Randy Ward

Star Citizen, what’s that?

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Armsbend

breathe…

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primal

id say compare it to games with scores of 8-8.5 not the best games of all time because its hard to live up to those standards

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Joe Blobers

Quote Shear:”Why don’t you compare SC to the good ones, not the bad ones?”

It would be reasonnable to compare whatever you want with the same state and scope.

Witcher 3 and GTA are good in their categories but do not have the same scope and challenge than SC, are both available on consoles and PC and were based on well established companies, game engine and pipelines.

Time to compare good released games with SC has not come. As Lethalty said: “When Star Citizen is out”

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Lethality

When Star Citizen is out, you will absolutely be able to compare it favorably to Witcher 3 or any other game you think is “good”.

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Melissa McDonald

Because they are real, launched, good games.

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shear

Maybe, but comparing it to bad, or lackluster games only is doing it a disservice.

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shear

It’s very, very long for a game that doesn’t have its core yet.

Uhh compare it to a game that was a lost cause and EA just went “fuck it, let’s cut out losses” As if all the publishers are like that, Witcher 3 was a damn good game. GTA, damn good game. Why don’t you compare SC to the good ones, not the bad ones?

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