Leaderboard: Which MMO gameplay type encourages the worst player behavior?

One of the common tropes held by MMORPG players is that PvP, particularly free-for-all environments prone to ganks, generates the worst type of behavior. But while it may be more common for PvP, I have also witnessed absolutely wretched behavior from all types of players, including psychological abuse from roleplayers, to say nothing of plane-jumping, ninja-looting, and greed from PvE gamers. The problem in my mind isn’t PvP as much as it is conflict and competition, which is something most game types engender. I bet you’ve seen the same.

Making that point is a story from PCGamesN this morning, which reports on a World of Warcraft player who’s apparently been DDOSing teammates to ensure himself a raid spot in the well-known raiding guild Limit. Limit has since booted the player.

But I’m curious whether our readers are swayed by anecdotes like that one. Let’s take it to the polls for a quick Leaderboard, shall we?

Leaderboard: Which MMO gameplay type encourages the worst player behavior? (Choose three.)

  • Free-for-all PvP (32%, 270 Votes)
  • Battlegrounds / factional PvP (8%, 68 Votes)
  • PvE raiding / endgame loot (14%, 117 Votes)
  • Achievements / world firsts (4%, 30 Votes)
  • PvE questing / farming (1%, 12 Votes)
  • Global chat (10%, 88 Votes)
  • Roleplaying (1%, 9 Votes)
  • Economy / crafting (1%, 5 Votes)
  • Guild life (1%, 12 Votes)
  • Gearscore / DPS meters (20%, 169 Votes)
  • Cash shops (4%, 33 Votes)
  • Housing / territory (2%, 14 Votes)
  • None of these (0%, 1 Votes)
  • Something else (tell us in the comments). (2%, 15 Votes)

Total Voters: 397

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60 Comments on "Leaderboard: Which MMO gameplay type encourages the worst player behavior?"

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Sashaa

Non permadeath gameplay.

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Alex Malone

I voted for gearscore / dps meters.

Whilst bad behaviour is probably more common in pvp (though, I think it’s probably just more visible, rather than actually more common), games that have terrible vertical progression have resulted in the worst behaviour.

As a former guild- and raid-leader, this was very common. There is a certain breed of self-deluded gamer who think that good gear and being a good player are the same thing. They are typically quite dumb and have too much time on their hands, so they’ve managed to grind out the best gear simply through always being online. But, they’re still not very good.

As a raid-leader, it was my job to select the best teams possible for our progression raids. Whenever I had to turn these types of people down, they would go ape shit! They simply couldn’t process the fact that they were not good players, despite providing loads of evidence. They would blame absolutely everyone but themselves and occasionally go on rampages – stealing from the guild bank, trying to get people to leave the guild, trying to stage coups to get me kicked out, badmouthing the guild on official forums and general chat. Deeply harmful behaviour with lasting damage, all because they suffered from self-delusion.

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Zen Dadaist

Ooh this is tough. I can only speak from my own personal experiences, and I’ve found that in each and every one of those options the vast majority of folks have been fine – but there’s always been a handful of utter shitters that spoil it for everyone else. Every. Single. One.

I suppose the 3 where I’ve seen it a little more often than the rest would have to be FFA PvP, high-end raiding, and PvE farming. On average. While I’ve not had to deal with folks DDoSing others out of my raids (!) I have had arrogant egomaniacs who refuse to follow my rules and consequently make it much harder for everyone else, or try to ninjaloot by assuming that because they know the raid and have high DPS, they can circumvent the looting rules. Dirty tricks while farming are ten-a-penny as well. Training mobs on others, rounding up and leading away mobs, kill-stealing etc. And, of course, unstructured FFA PvP (by contrast I find structured team-based PvP to have less terrible behaviour).

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Zen Dadaist

I should have mentioned that I voted for Questing/Farming because of the farming more than the questing. That said quest mob greifing is a big thing.

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Veldan

I voted FFA PvP, but I think the real bad behaviour enabler is freedom. Humans are trash (forgive the misanthropy) and given freedom a large part of them will be assholes towards one another. The only solution is rules and consequences for breaking them (which is why society has laws). So, I voted FFA PvP because there people typically have the most freedom to abuse.

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Space Captain Zor

Yep, all you have to do is watch The Walking Dead and you get plenty of examples of a certain type of gamer with no rules or consequences to govern their actions.

kjempff
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kjempff

Very much a question of game design and whether rules of conduct are enforced. Obviously on a broad perspective open/free pvp opens up for most possibilities of bad behavior, and anonymity (including hiding in the crowd of mega server and instances) plus competition to some degree.
It is mostly a question of consequence; community reputation mechanics, game rules/design, developer policing & rules enforcement is what define how players behave.
The 95% of players will have no problems setting their own behavior boundaries even if the game allows them to be nasty, it is the remaining 5% that needs to be regulated by game design (mostly) and policing.

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Veldan

Exactly. It’s important to realize that bad behaviour is not a property of any of these gameplay types. Bad behaviour is a result of there not being enough consequences for bad behaviour, and most of that is in the game design.

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Utakata

Oh…I just realized I could of chosen two more. :(

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rafael12104

Hmm. PvP is low hanging fruit in this discussion, but I think it misses the mark. Anything, and I mean anything that is social or competitive opens the door to bad behaviour. And the anonymity allows anyone to walk on in.

So, PvE, yes. PvP, yes. But I’ve seen bad behaviour in crafting, Auction Houses, Gen Chat, etc. etc.

I’m not sure pointing out which gameplay type encourages the worst player behaviour does anything more that get the ire up between player types.

Sorry guys. No. It’s not the game play type that encourages bad behaviour, it is anonymity and the permissiveness of devs or moderators.

So, I would say, all types or none more than another.

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Peregrine Falcon

I can’t believe that this is an honest question. Anyone who plays MMOs, especially the folks at MOP, knows that the majority of toxic behavior comes from the PvP community.

PvPers brought us the term ‘carebear.’ A pejorative used by PvPers to describe PvErs. Are there any commonly used phrases used across the entire internet to describe any other of the MMO communities? No. Do the RPers have an insult to describe crafters? No. Do PvErs have an insulting term to describe raiders. No. But PvErs in every forum of every game know what carebear means. Why is that?

Because the PvP community is the most toxic MMO community on the internet.

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Alex Malone

The PvEer equivalent of “carebear” is “ganker”.

I’m not sure about general insults for roleplayers or crafters, but raiders are often referred to as “stat whores” or “elitists”.

I also strongly disagree that the PvP community is the most toxic. I have never found that to be the case within MMORPGs. Maybe other genres, like shooters and mobas, but not MMOs. What is different is that the bad behaviour is on show. In the PvE community, the bad behaviour tends to be restricted to groups/raids/instances, but it is just as prevalent and just as toxic.

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Veldan

Oh please… there’s a reason the “gearscore / DPS meter” bar is the 2nd largest. It’s not because of the PvP community.

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donvweel

I think certain games become hang outs for antisocial misfits. WoW is certainly one of them. It also helps if the game gives these players the tools they need. PvP is one of them for sure.

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Robert Mann

Anything with any sort of competition will inevitably bring the jerks out of the woodwork. That being said, the problem isn’t competition… it’s a social acceptance and limited possibility of paying the consequences that inspires this (mostly.) There’s always people who are either stupid or hateful enough that they care not about the consequences or acceptance.

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Cinaminson

I mean, anything can breed toxicity. Most of these things are just people competing for attention, the true goal that people strive for. Sure, I’ve seen toxic PvPers, toxic PvEers, and
toxic every play style in between. RPers tend towards toxicity towards “outsiders” and each other. I mean seriously, try out the FFXIV RP site. There is an entire section dedicated towards being horribly toxic and hating on fellow RPers.

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Kawaii Five-O

Yeah, there’s a reason that site is practically dead compared to what it was a couple of years ago despite the RP community growing immensely in that same period.

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ichi sakari

forums and comment sections

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Melissa McDonald

so yeah I hate PvP and all, especially the open/nonconsensual murder kind, so I would be completely out of character to say anything else.

“But, what fun it is playing the roles.” – The Rev. Peter Shayne

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Arktouros

I find the poll results a bit funny because as someone who’s played a lot on FFA PvP servers I actually find it encourages more social behavior than any other game mode. There’s so much politicking and diplomatic details in those environments it’s to a whole other level. The rise and fall of so many alliances is always on par with what you see in EVE with constant social adjustment. I suppose it says a great deal more of how deeply personal they take it.

That said, I’ve always found raiding and end game gear to be the most toxic environment. There’s no room for fun there, it’s just maximum performance at all times. If you fuck up everyone knows. I saw more veteran guilds who never had those issues before WOW just get ripped apart in that game over petty issues like raiding and loot. It’s not even about just downing bosses for gear they want DPS meters to measure your performance. The whole thing is insane to me.

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Schmidt.Capela

I find the poll results a bit funny because as someone who’s played a lot on FFA PvP servers I actually find it encourages more social behavior than any other game mode.

Each person’s perception will depend on a number of things. Like how comfortable the person is when reaching out, if the person is fine with figuring out and playing by the politics of the game, how much tolerance her or she has for uncalled (and/or deserved) attacks, etc.

I have never had good experiences with FFA PvP games. But then, I’m someone that would rather leave a game than ever ask for help, that is very uncomfortable giving orders, that will never, ever, submit to another player in a game (which means I will never fit in an in-game hierarchy, neither as leader nor as follower), and whose tolerance for uncalled attacks is very close to zero; this all added together means that, despite finding plenty of nice people in all my attempts, my overall experience whenever I tried to play a FFA PvP game was always extremely negative.

And what seals the deal for me when it comes to considering FFA PvP toxic is how it empowers griefers. In most PvE games I can completely remove all negative effects griefers can have on my enjoyment by simply putting them on ignore; PvP games, and FFA PvP games in particular, give those griefers the tools to force me to acknowledge their presence, tools that allow griefers to completely ruin my experience. Thus, while I know there is toxicity in PvE games, I’m never affected by it, whereas toxicity in FFA PvP games is something I can’t really escape from.

That said, I’ve always found raiding and end game gear to be the most toxic environment.

Yeah, that is also part of why I don’t find issues in PvE games. I will never again run raids, so whenever the only way left for me to progress is by raiding I leave the game instead. It’s not because of raid toxicity either; back when I was raiding we had a really great raiding group, everyone nice and supportive, with no drama. I simply can’t stand the format of raiding, which is to say content where a single person screwing up can throw away a few hours of effort by a large group; if I’m the one screwing up I feel very bad, and if I’m not the one screwing up it becomes extremely frustrating, so in both cases it isn’t worth wasting my leisure time with. Raid-related toxicity, thus, is something that I never experienced, and never will.

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Arktouros

But there in lies the misconception.

If you don’t like competitive FPS games you don’t go into PUBG and then say that because it was uncalled for you to be attacked then people attacking you have toxic behavior. It just makes no sense. In that vein of thinking it’s the same for FFA PvP games where in the ability to kill each other is not inherently toxic behavior but rather simply a way the game can be played. A player who then, after killing you, tea-bags your corpse is just as likely to be a douche bag after he steals your mob in a PvE game as well.

I have, in my 20 years of playing games, run into far more grief players in games that provide them protections than a FFA environment. Because your reputation matters and you become a known quantity you can’t really get away with grief play in FFA PvP without invariably becoming you vs the population. This is because there is repercussions in a FFA environment. If you’re an asshole to a group of people, that group of people can actually do something about it unlike PvE focused games that provide arbitrary protections for them. Almost every system I’ve seen put into place to protect players from other players has been used to grief other players behind that protection.

There’s a great deal more social aspects as well and not wanting to join a social group in a State of Nature is bad for one’s health. This was the original reasons we created guilds or clans to bond together through a common cause and goal (usually your own survival). So and so just got PK’d at the crossroads: All call and put on a show of force to show that our members are not to be trifled with.

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Schmidt.Capela

A game like PUBG, Planetside 2, etc, is purely PvP; you only log into the game if you are feeling the urge to PvP. And because there is no reason to log if you don’t want to immediately engage in PvP, you are also guaranteed that every player you can attack is also looking for a fight.

A traditional FFA PvP game is different because it has PvE and PvP mixed together. You might log into the game because you are craving for its PvE gameplay even if you are not really in the mood for PvP, and by the same token you are not guaranteed that your targets want to fight; that means every time you attack someone unprovoked, you are taking a chance you might be ruining the game for someone else.

I, particularly, can’t live with that. I only ever engage in PvP if I’m fully in the mood for PvP, and if I’m completely sure my target also wants to fight. Anything less is unacceptable for me, as I don’t want to be responsible for ruining the experience for someone that didn’t want to fight. Which, yeah, means I never initiate an attack in a FFA PvP game that has PvE elements; never have, never will.

A player who then, after killing you, tea-bags your corpse is just as likely to be a douche bag after he steals your mob in a PvE game as well.

Thus why a lot of PvE games are doing away with mob-stealing by giving every player that attacks the mob the same rewards as if the player killed the mob solo. In such a game, someone else trying to steal “my” mob isn’t harming me, but instead is allowing me to kill mobs far faster than I would otherwise be able to, increasing my own efficiency.

Which, mind, nips that specific kind of toxicity in the bud. I would bet it’s infuriating for the would-be griefer if his actions are more of a help than a hindrance for his target.

That is part of a set of design choices that aims to remove all friction between players, with the end goal of making the gameplay when surrounded by strangers never worse, in any way, than when you are solo, instead providing benefits for being around others even if you are not grouped with them. GW2’s original manifesto provided a great explanation for it.

Almost every system I’ve seen put into place to protect players from other players has been used to grief other players behind that protection.

If mere words can ruin the experience for you, despite being given tools to silence the offending player, yes. Otherwise, quite a few games effectively prevent other players from having any negative effect on my own experience apart from chat, and simply putting the offending player on ignore is enough to solve that last remaining issue.

This, of course, requires the game design to never force players to depend on, or even acknowledge, each other; it only works in games where grouping and social structure is fully optional. Which works just fine for me, but won’t work for players whose primary drive is exploring a fantasy player-controlled society.

There’s a great deal more social aspects as well and not wanting to join a social group in a State of Nature is bad for one’s health.

Exactly why I never play State of Nature games, or at least those where the antagonists can be other players. Competition between player groups where you need to join a player group in order to thrive is just about the opposite of what I find fun or enjoyable.

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Khalith .

PVP in general.

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qweazdak

FFA PvP: nothing to say about this
Achievements/Server firts: server firsts promotes unhealthy gameplay (no lifers) and cut throat gameplay.
global chat: anonymity just breeds toxic behavior in any chat medium.

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Isarii

Oh boy – there’s a fun topic. Although I’m sure FFA PvP is going to take the poll (partially because of Competitive PvE and Gearscore / DPS Meters being questionably split up), I’m going to weigh in to defend it.

With Free For All PvP in a real MMO – so I’m not talking about small-scale gankboxes like Rust here – there are consequences for poor behavior that are enforced by the community. While awful players are empowered in a way that exceeds what you find in a more locked down themepark, behavior matters in a way that you just don’t find in any other game mode. If you develop a reputation for being an awful player, it’s not unlikely that you’ll be ostracized by the non-awful members of the game’s community.

It’s more direct when someone ganks or camps you in the open world, but in those FFA communities, the character of a player matters far more than it might in a PvE themepark like WoW, where so many are kicked from groups or ignored completely without second thought or explanation, reduced to nothing more than their average iLvl or – god forbid – Raider.IO score, because in the modern day incarnation of WoW, ultimately, who a person is and what the nature of their character is matters far less than what they’re able to provide in the 20 minutes you’ll borderline interact with them. Being a terrible person isn’t really discouraged, and the benefit to being decent has been marginalized over the years of development.

I think people perceive the harmful action of others to be worse in a FFA PvP environment because when it does happen, it’s far more direct – far more personal. But I’d argue that the far more accepted, every day reduction of players to nothing more than faceless performance numbers has done far more harm in the long run.

Dantos
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Dantos

Gearscore/DPS meters, the progression raid scene and heavy pvp emphasis.

I know alot of people are going to say dungeon finders, but I’ve honestly had good, or at least unoffensive runs in the vast majority of cases across multiple games.

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Paragon Lost

While I see a lot of comments about pvp being the worst, in my opinion raiding was worse. Not saying it isn’t bad in pvp, it is but in my opinion endgame raiding activities bring out the worst.

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strangesands

I’ll add ‘dungeon finders’ to the list simply because so little thought is put into them. Which results in many piss poor runs – antisocial or antagonistic. The fix is pretty simple, but seems no one wants to spend any effort to take them to the next step.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

I voted for dps meter/gear score — because there are opportunities to help and be patient. Group activities can be opportunities to cooperate. No need for insults and put downs. Also, stupidity.

FFA pvp is obviously kill or be killed when you step into the world. You already know there are going to be people out to get you and people who are attracted to that kind of environment. People are going to be your enemies.

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Sorenthaz

FFA PvP is the obvious biggest offender. Seeing what lengths people went to just to grief others in Tree of Life pretty much made it clear just how bad that stuff can be even in games with low populations.

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Danny Smith

Instanced content in World of Warcraft remains the biggest cesspool i’ve ever seen. Including every moba i’ve tried and 4chan. It seems to bring out the extreme asshole in people.

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Jacobin GW

The problem with MMO pvp is vertical progression which just leads to population cannibalization.

Balanced PVP is the most popular form of online gaming and crushes MMORPGs as a genre.

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Utakata

FFA PvP in a no brainer and a pigtail. Anything that paints a target on the back of each player isn’t going likely end well for them, save for the few who are into that sort of thing. And it’s those few that will make lives of the rest miserable who venture into that MMO.

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Kawaii Five-O

As much as I like FFXIV, I think that having a large part of end game revolve around running the same content over and over for weekly tomestone caps and weekly locked drops wears people down and breeds some pretty toxic behavior.

I often see people praise FFXIV’s community, and that honestly confuses me. I think a lot of it stems from new players who have yet to experience level cap content and then the community itself latches onto such praise and pats each other on the back over it.

Far too often do I see in expert roulette and 24 man alliance raids that people have zero patience with one another, and the passive aggressiveness is off the charts.

I’ve been playing a lot of BDO recently, and despite node wars and non-consensual PvP, I honestly think that the community is less antagonistic and hateful towards individuals than FFXIV’s. And although the server chat can be pretty atrocious if you’re easily offended, it’s not any worse than General chat on Balmung and Gilgamesh in FFXIV. That seems to be par for the course in just about any game.

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jay

I went with gearscore/dps meeters, as I’ve seen these used as the solo metric as to a players value. Which is just absolutely terrible as a human being. There are other values that these types of things can’t properly measure, such as doing raid mechanics properly, taking a few seconds off DPS to pull agro off a healer, etc.

It’s all well and good if you can pull top DPS in a raid, but if you are not doing the raid mechanics properly, and causing undue stress on the rest of the raid to pull off that DPS, then IMHO you are worse than the guy pulling middling DPS who’s doing everything right. Sadly, many modern raid themed MMO’s only look at the epeen meters and judge worth by that.

A close 2nd in game play mechanics that encourage toxic behavior is the group finder systems found in modern day MMO’s. Yes they make it so that finding a group is quick and easy, and for casuals it’s amazing. But it also encourages people to act like total asshats, as they know that they will more than likely never see the people in that group ever again, and that there are a million other fish in the sea (people to group with)

This is just a larger extrapolation of the issue with the internet as a social medium as a whole. Given that we are all faceless masses, and what we do/say on the internet has little repercussions, it gives people the free reign to do things they would never do/say IRL. Things that would most likely get their teeth knocked out IRL, are tolerated on the web, because there’s just nothing you can do about it.

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Rumm

I would decouple Gearscore and DPS Meters in the poll. People use gearscore as an entry barrier – if you don’t have the gearscore, work on it and join the next group. People are trying to make their own runs as smooth as possible, and people who meet the required gear limit are obviously more likely to have done the content before. When I go back to WoW after one of my months-long hiatuses, I don’t expect to join groups in full heroic gear just to get carried – I want to experience the content first and work my way up.

I’ve seen people be shitty with DPS meters, and they’re almost always bad players themselves. I use them because I like seeing how I compare to other players, especially those of my own class. I still can’t honestly recall the last time I’ve seen someone kicked from a group because of low DPS, and I think people grossly exaggerate how often that happens.

Personally, I picked both of the PVP topics and global chat.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

People do get kicked from random dungeons in wow because of dps meters. It happened to me for the first time last month. It was my first dungeon after a nostalgia re-sub.

/unsub

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Oleg Chebeneev

List is irrelevant since the only right answer is competitive environment

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Utakata

Yet, there are some forms of “competitive” environments that likely generate more toxicity than others. So the list is indeed relevant.

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Thomas Zervogiannis

I picked the following three because they represented the actual reasons for breeding toxicity:

(a) one player causing loss to another player (Free-for-all PvP)
(b) chance of failure and the need to blame it on someone (Battlegrounds)
(c) performance metric and stupid displays of elitism (DPS meters)

I would categorize raids with (b) and dng speedruns with (c), if looking at the actual cause rather than the effect.

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squidgod2000

I’ve met some spectacularly shitty people in games where progression revolves around repeated/daily dungeon running.

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Bruno Brito

Any competitive enviroment without rulesets and codes of conduct are toxicity breeding grounds.

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Serrenity

I have been kicked from more regular level dungeons or Random Heroics for low(er than someone who doesn’t play my class things I should have) DPS numbers or kicked out because my ilvl was too low more times than I can count. Hell, once I got booted as a healer for not having enough HPS (as if that’s a metric that matters — no one had died, or even come close to dying).

I personally think that DPS meters /gearscore etc did a lot to increase player douchebaggery and toxicity. Unfortunately, I also see it as somewhat of an inevitability that something like that was going to come along.

I actually didn’t vote for FFA PvP – while I’ve had a few instances where I was ganked and camped, I can only think of a few over the last decade. Where I can I can think of 10-20 different instances (probably more) of getting griefed / kicked from a group because some arbitrary number didn’t meet some arbitrary threshold – completely independent of my performance as a group member.

K38FishTacos
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K38FishTacos

Happened to me, too. For the first time, ever. In a normal dungeon in which we were melting bosses anyway. Feels bad man.

Minimalistway
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Minimalistway

Perfectionists or just PITA people, you point at the moon and the fools look at the finger, they don’t care if things go well, it should be perfect .. whatever that means to them of course.

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Tobasco da Gama

Pretty much tied between FFA and Raiding, IMO. If anything, Raiders might be slightly more toxic to “in-group” players, which FFA toxicity is mostly directed toward victims outside one’s guild/corp/whatever.

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NeoWolf

Top two and Global chat without a shadow of a doubt

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silverwillow_sogboggen

My guess is a player brings it into a game with them. If we could see them in RL, there would probably be similar choices, when opportunities arise. I don’t have the enough experience with all types of games to suggest where it appears the most, but I’ve suffered enough grief in open worlds with PVP that I just avoid them.

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Jon Wax

How u handle gaming is how u handle life

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Dug From The Earth

I didnt vote for DPS meters, but im glad its on the list.

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Zora

You folks have this habit of just picking a topic and pairing it with a banner that subtly reminds me what my brain was already associating the topic with before I could open my mouth. Stop it, will you? :P

I feel like I’m adding to the choir, pvp of any kind tend to bring out the worst but that’s because the level of competition is extreme. Resource farming in the world or dps-metering can top even pvp in their own environments, just with less spectacularly obvious results.

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A Dad Supreme

Making that point is a story from PCGamesN this morning, which reports on a World of Warcraft player who’s apparently been DDOSing teammates to ensure himself a raid spot in the well-known raiding guild Limit.

I don’t think extremely rare one-off anecdotes like this involving highly technical methodology and hacking procedures by extremely skilled individuals really count as “making the point” with most players.

Something like this isn’t likely to happen often, thereby excluding it from the discussion imo. That doesn’t mean that bad behavior doesn’t happen in PvE; it does but hardly to the extend that PvP does.

PvP in almost any form is something where worst player behavior is a well-known problem in everything from Overwatch to CCG games to MMOs in general. The basic rules of most PvP encourage bad player behavior, which only tend to enhance jerky behavior already in some.

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Schmidt.Capela

IMHO, bad behavior happens in PvE just as often as in PvP.

The difference is that people behaving badly in PvP, and particularly in FFA PvP with looting, have direct means to impact your enjoyment of the game; in PvE they often can’t do anything more hurtful than call you names, which can be solved by just putting the player on ignore.

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Rees Racer

Since the genre is covered on this site, but may not “technically” be MMO’s, I’ll vote for the military lobby shooters. I love World of Tanks/War Thunder et al from time-to-time, but my tolerance for the vitriol (and even team-killing) wears very thin after a couple of hours. The chat varies from political extremes and blatant racism, to constant criticism of other players’ skills.

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connor_jones

Indeed. This is a big reason I avoid lobby games.

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DeadlyAccurate

FFA PvP might be the easiest answer, but I think mob- and resource-tagging encourages some pretty toxic behavior.

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Utakata

Yep. Some of those on that list do come in a good second place. /bleh

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MesaSage

I voted for Trolling.

wpDiscuz