Leaderboard: The Elder Scrolls Online Morrowind ‘chapter vs. DLC’ fee debate

In the comments of a Daily Grind last week, a few commenters tangented into debate about The Elder Scrolls Online: Morrowind pricing.

See, the original “ESO Plus” deal for ESO subscription holders granted them full access to all future downloadable content (DLC) forever and ever, as long as they were subscribed to the game. Morrowind, however, has been marketed not as DLC but as a “chapter,” meaning it will not be subject to the Plus promises, and so everyone will have to pay for it. Grumbling ensued.

“Suppose I paid BMW a monthly fee to drive [BMW] cars,” commenter Odin wrote. “I could drive whatever I want as long as I paid. They announce a great new car I want to drive. I cant wait, but they tell me, “This isnt a car; it’s an automobile. You have to pay extra.'”

ZeniMax has defended its decision by suggesting that ESO is exceptional, “a game unlike any other,” and in gaming parlance Morrowind should more properly be binned as an expansion rather than DLC (except for the part where PR doesn’t want anyone calling it and future chapters “expansions” because they start at level 1).

People on the fence seem to see through the trick but shrug it off with the reality that game companies gotta make bank.

I’m curious where you stand.

Where do you stand on ESO's Morrowind pricing?

  • I am fine with the distinction between chapter and DLC. (39%, 200 Votes)
  • I am annoyed by the distinction between chapter and DLC but will play anyway. (25%, 130 Votes)
  • I am bothered by the distinction between chapter and DLC to the point that I will not participate. (30%, 155 Votes)
  • I don't care, don't play, or don't understand the issue. (5%, 28 Votes)

Total Voters: 513

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156 Comments on "Leaderboard: The Elder Scrolls Online Morrowind ‘chapter vs. DLC’ fee debate"

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Roger Melly

I play this game and I know a quite a few people who subscribe and I have not heard a single complaint about them having to pay for an expansion . I guess it’s something they always expected they would have to do anyway .

Reader
odin valhalla

Interesting replies, some of them. I should restart my business and advert on this site. Some of the customers here are to die for, I am blown away LOL.

Anyway interesting poll results a lot closer than I thought it would be. Thanks for doing it.

Reader
Dread Quixadhal

It’s an unfortunate choice of wording on their part. If they’d just called it an expansion, nobody would have batted an eye. Other subscription-optional games have already done that. Most people intuitively get that a DLC module is a fairly small bit of content, whereas an expansion is a huge game-changing chunk.

I have no issue buying an expansion to a game I enjoy and am playing, just like I don’t mind paying a subscription fee that amounts to $0.50/day for as many hours as I want to play. When I stop enjoying the game, I stop paying for it and won’t buy any more expansions unless I think they’ll re spark my interest in it.

Not really sure why people have their panties twisted over this… must be millennial entitlement.

Reader
Denice J. Cook

I am fine with this, because I never sub to ESO anyway. I was a beta tester paying $15 a month for a year to mold the flawed PC version into a more palatable version for the console masses. They got all the subscription fees they’re ever going to get out of me. Now I just play the base game and buy the DLCs as they come out, if they interest me.

Reader
Mackdose

It’s a Guild Wars style expansion pack. No issues here, and I pay for ESO Plus.

I really don’t mind supporting the game I play.

Reader
Sally Bowls

It is getting a little to close to trolling, even for me, but I was going to point out that the reviled SWTOR does not charge subscribers for expansions and gives all current/past content for free.

But it struck me, what I want is a company to decide if it is in the selling or the renting business; supersets are fine but needing a comparison matrix for advantages and disadvantages of renting vs buying really frustrates me. I don’t mind spending money. But choosing between having your DLC still be there if you take a break vs having a big subscriber bag while you are there frustrates me.

I wish the benefits, especially content, that I get in game would be based up how much I spent: If I spent $300, I am at the $300 level, whether that is 20 months of $15/month, two $150 horse armors, a $300 house, … I have little impulse control and find most gaming, at least in the past, to be a great value. If you make it so I have a confusing time to decide the optimal way to have a top tier experience, I will probably find another game.

Reader
Jack Pipsam

I will just keep looking as Chapters as meaning expansion personally.

Reader
wayshuba

For me, I will wait and see what amount of content comes in the “Chapter”. Technically, it reads to be an expansion and it has been in the model for a long time that Patch Content comes with a sub and Expansions are extra.

I think the only thing that disappoints me was the recent announcement that they are going to open up to additional character slots for account purchase (at $15 a slot) because of the new class when they should, like is industry standard, give one additional character slot as part of the “Chapter”.

If the amount of content in this is substantially more than they have included in DLC such as Thieve’s Guild, Dark Brotherhood and Orsinium, then I think it will be fine.

Reader
Stephen Donohue

Provided we continue to get DLC at a somewhat regular pace, I’m okay with paying for these “Chapters”. If, however, they basically forget about DLC and just do chapters from here on, that’s going to be a problem.

hurbster
Reader
hurbster

Didn’t even know this was a thing.

Reader
Sally Bowls

I present to you the debut of

SB’s definition of BECS Gravity

BECS Gravity is the inexorable force that draws every PC MMO that is not quad dipping – Box, Expansion, Ca$h $shop, Subscription – to do so.

I say the difference between B2P and F2P is $40. At least if you play a F2P game, you can only get triple-dipped.

P.S. note that there are “people” out there working on what quint dipping would entail. Derp, I already have it. Quinting: to show a quad dipped gamer advertisements in/near their game.

Reader
Bryan Turner

There’s been a precedent set between content patches and expansions since long before WoW Burning Crusade ever came out, any one that doesn’t understand the Sub refers to content patches and not expansions are either being willfully ignorant or are brand new to MMOs.

Or you could just go B2P and spend way less money as I’m sure the DLCs don’t roll out monthly and I’m pretty sure at $20 a pop and 6 per year you’re paying $5 less to than if you were renting it through a sub.

I chose the I Don’t Care Option because I don’t play ESO, how ever I know enough about how this industry monetizes to come in smack a fool upside the head.

Reader
Loyal Patron
Patreon Donor
thickenergy

With the double whammy of Morrowind nostalgia PLUS a new class, Zenimax expects to sell the shit out of this whatever they call it. It might as well be called “ESO: You’re our bitches.” Because you know even the vast majority of people that don’t feel particularly good about it are going to buy it anyway.

People can harangue and titter all they want, but the interesting and relevant thing here isn’t whether a company has played a little loose with their promises or are clumsy with their PR. It’s all the little internal battles we’re not going to get to see. Where every individual that has inklings of using their wallet to make a moral stand almost inevitably loses that fight. That’s how the will to resist is slowly broken over time. That’s how civilizations eventually fall.

It’s really quite fascinating.

Reader
Castagere Shaikura

LOL your our bitches now. They will set a record in sales with Morrowind expansion.

Reader
kidwithknife

It was kind of foolish for Zenimax to paint themselves into a corner by promising “all DLC” be included with the sub rather than making the distinction right out of the gate, but come on… I’m supposed to be mad about this? Really?

I’m finding myself perversely missing the old days when everything had a monthly sub, paid boxed expansions and no promise of free non-expansion content. It was a crap deal financially, but it had the advantage of pricing out all the complaint hobbyists and other people who don’t really want to be there that badly. I wouldn’t say those were good times all around, but that aspect of them was really nice.

Reader
Tobasco da Gama

It has always been thus. Or at least since Burning Crusade.

To me, the fact that Morrowind is essentially a second entry point to the game rather than an expansion that requires the base game makes the issue a bit more complicated than it would be otherwise.

If you needed to buy the base game in order to play Morrowind, then I think this would be an open and shut case in favour of the complaints from ESO Plus players.

As it is, the complaints are definitely valid, but Vivendi’s position is a bit more understandable. You can’t get the Tamriel Unlimited provinces without buying a thing called “ESO: Tamriel Unlimited”. You can’t get Morrowind without buying a thing called “ESO: Morrowind”. But you don’t need to buy TU to get Morrowind, and vice versa. And then everything that was DLC before stays DLC, and that’s what ESO Plus has always covered and will always cover.

I dunno, it’s not my favourite thing in the world, but it’s less of a raw deal than what ANet did with Heart of Thorns.

Reader
Sally Bowls

Forgive the pre-coffee cynicism, it is seeping atm:

1) People who dislike a game will complain about all decisions, even the good ones, even if they don’t play it.

2) People who like the game will pay, regardless if the business practice is something they would otherwise object to: e.g., were it in a game they don’t like. The only question before them, is whether they complain about it on social media.

Reader
Bryan Turner

I don’t like the game but I support their business model.

Reader
Schmidt.Capela

Point 2 isn’t so true in this day and age due to excessive choice. With the amount of F2P MMOs, the number of games on sale every month in stores like Steam, the free games when you subscribe to services like PSN, many players have too many options, making it easy to leave games that are good but have that one small thing that nags the player. Heck, it’s easy to leave a good game even when it doesn’t do anything to displease the player, as there are often great, fresher experiences at reach.

It’s my case. Just between Steam and GOG I already have over 1200 games, so it’s quite easy for me to leave even a game I still like if it does something to displease me; after all, I always have something else I really want to play in reserve, and often even already installed, for just that occasion.

Crow
Reader
Crow

You know, the industry glut is why this even happens. Back when people actually played MMORPGs as long-burn experiences they weren’t distracted by the marketing promise of the next game being better.

Reader
Pandalulz

So… 2003ish. When we only had a handful to choose from. From the moment WoW exploded, there’s been a glut of games trying to jump on the bandwagon, to be the next big thing. F2P and B2P has just been the race to ultimate bottom. I’ve been chasing the next big thing since Asheron’s Call, hitting a speed bump on WoW for a good many years, but even then constantly cheating on it with Lineage 2 (even tried L1, so ugly), FFXI, WAR, Shadowbane, AO, etc, and that was only during the early days. If I hadn’t met a bunch of local people to play with during WotLK, I probably would’ve left earlier. SOME people played these game for longevity, but I’ve always been a drifter.

Crow
Reader
Crow

Awesome. So games designed for long-burn need to be designed for quick-burn?

This is the “WoW Problem”.

Reader
Pandalulz

Games can be designed however the designers want, but humans are how they are.

Crow
Reader
Crow

And humans are showing how completely terrible they are.

Reader
Pandalulz

Like that’s anything new

Crow
Reader
Crow

No. We’re better than this.

Reader
Pandalulz

We can be. But I don’t think video games are going to be the thing to do it. I mean, as a species we are effing up so many bigger things as it is because deep down we are petty and selfish creatures when on autopilot.
I mean, per this actual article, since I never actually responded to the question at hand, it’s really just another situation, where if they’d come out, say a few months before the MW announcement and said, “Hey guys, we’re going to have to change some things up, something big, but you’re going to have to pay for it,” there would’ve been some grumbling sure. But then announcing MW a few months later down the road, everybody would’ve been super excited. The whole act of trying to argue semantics after the fact is what’s burning people. Communication breakdown, it’s always the same.

Crow
Reader
Crow

I mean, they were costing huge PR from OT already… and then they ruined it!

Reader
Pandalulz

On a related note, this just popped up in my RSS feed. He was the character designer for Spiral Knights, so it’s totally allowed. Heh

Are they doing it?

Crow
Reader
Crow

I guess in the end I’m confused why people think subbing is a better option and why they didn’t use that 500/month Crowns on content?

I have never subbed to the game, because I have never needed to. I buy the content I want (often on sale) and it is a far better deal.

Reader
odin valhalla

For those of us who did beta and the year after (approx) there was no other option to play the game other than the subscription. That was always the hook, even when they went B2P they went out of their way to make it clear “you subscribe you get 100% of the DLC”.

This historical reference is paramount to the issue really. Its not an issue for a player like yourself, at no fault of your own, you simply didnt play when a sub was required.

Reader
JoeCreoterra

The crafting bag is why I sub, instead of wasting a countless amount of time playing inventory manager

Crow
Reader
Crow

That’s the single thing.

And if that is the big thing… then that is something different entirely. I’ve never had to sub to ESO and my inventory management is a nightmare. What makes it okay is that it is the same as what is in at launch.

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Castagere Shaikura

Yup there is no need to sub to ESO. Buy what you want to play is the way to go.

Crow
Reader
Crow

By the numbers it makes no sense to sub.

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Drainage

ESO doesn’t hold your characters hostage while unsubscribed. Comparing this situation to a WoW is just invalid.

Reader
Anthony

I personally see it as a scam, they wont call it an expansion but it costs the same as one while having less content and attention span than a real expansion, so they decided to just call it something different so people can fall for it and spend the money on it while telling themselves that its ok, but guess what in a year from now you are gonna have to spend the same amount of money on another chapter while still buying regular DLC’s (not to mention some people get the DLC’s by being a sub which makes this game one of the most expensive MMOs to keep up with updates).

Reader
Bryan Turner

How is it supposed to be light on content, from what I remember Morrowind had enough landmass and story content to warrant the $50 price tag, did 3/4s of Morrowind sink into the sea, I’m pretty sure one class per expansion is the industry norm atm?

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Anthony

I think you are confusing Morrowind the RPG with Morrowind The ESO Update, there is no way in hell that 80 quests in an MMO warrants that price tag, no new dungeons where announced and 1 raid dungeon is not gonna last long.

There is no replayability to the overland content (AKA quests and world bosses) so the “expansion” (chapter) ends up being the same price tag as an expansion but like i already stated in my previous comment it wont last half as long as an actual expansion that other games have done (WoW, FFXIV, GW2 etc)

Crow
Reader
Crow

Because it is never enough for players.

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Witches

This is BAU for ESO, i played at launch, meaning i paid a fee for the box, plus the sub, when it went B2P they wanted me to pay for the box again, that said i don’t see a problem with charging for content, the real problem is they (all games not just ESO) usually get away with charging for things that aren’t really worth it.

They could probably offer a discounted price for subbers, no harm in keeping your players happy, at the end of the day regular subbers are worth more than the 30€ of the expansion price, and i’m guessing deluxe edition aren’t included in the dlc deal so anyone who wants those would have to buy then anyway.

I think that it’s bad business to piss off your subbers, over the price of an expansion, those guys will pay more than that for other stuff anyway.

stege99
Reader
stege99

I don’t see it any different than the formula in LOTRO.
You pay for expansions (like upcoming Mordor and previous Rohan for example) and you get Updates/DLCs for “free” as long as you subscribe (like how they rolled out Gondor).

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Targeter

I think I’m conflicted on this one; if it were any other MMO doing this (say, RIFT or WoW), I’d be far more bothered by it. But since I like ESO a lot, I’m giving them a pass. Maybe I should look deeper at this issue, but at first blush, I’m ok with the DLC =/= Chapters idea. Now, if the Chapters become a yearly thing, I’ll re-evaluate. It also depends on how much bang Morrowind delivers for my gaming buck. I dunno. I do feel like a big ol’ hypocrite though. If this was Blizzard, I’d totally be on the “Blizz sucks!” bandwagon (and yeah, I realize the sub models don’t match ESO offers – free DLC – but it’s just an example).

Reader
A Dad Supreme

“I think I’m conflicted on this one; if it were any other MMO doing this (say, RIFT or WoW), I’d be far more bothered by it. But since I like ESO a lot, I’m giving them a pass”
==========
I think this is the key issue.
I remember for years the same thing that was said about Rift and Trion. Those who were dedicated never saw what was happening to the game and company in REAL TIME. Those that did and voiced opinion were denounced as trolls and haters, kicked from the forums and silenced.
Many were giving Trion/Rift a free pass ‘just because Hartsman’, while ignoring basic facts and truths that began to emerge as time went on.
ESO went through some horrible press (some justified, some not) but they had one of the better models in the industry. People talked about what they got for the value of the sub or just by being B2P.
Then came lockboxes. Fanboys said “/shrug, no big deal. Buy it or don’t” A lot of people complained.
Now comes “DLC/Not DLC” and Fanboys are saying “/shrug, no big deal. Buy it or don’t”. A lot of people are complaining.
I see a lot of similarities between how Rift went and how ESO is going as a business.
Rift didn’t get to where is as a tarnished game overnight, nor did Trion lose it’s ‘great reputation’ in one month, but if you were looking at it from the outside, you could easily see the slide happening.

threeknee
Reader
threeknee

It bothers me and I’ve already stopped playing, even the free homestead update didn’t do much to change my perspective.

Reader
A Dad Supreme

“DLC isn’t really DLC, it’s a Chapter.”
Hmm.
Reminds me of something else Zenimax has said:

Matt Firor- “We don’t like to look at ESO as an MMO because it’s really not.”

I guess the Trump Administration isn’t the only one that likes to use “alternative facts”.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

You can find the rest of the context here, where he goes on to explain that you can approach it like a single player game.

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A Dad Supreme

“…you can approach it like a single player game.”
====
And this sounds like the explanation of “access to heathcare” and being actually able to ‘get’ or ‘afford’ healthcare.
Doesn’t matter that you can ‘approach it’ as a single-player game. It’s an MMO. In your context, any MMO is really not an MMO if you ‘approach it’ that way by just playing a campaign story.

Crow
Reader
Crow

And this sounds like the explanation of “access to heathcare” and being actually able to ‘get’ or ‘afford’ healthcare.

I’m about as red as one can get, and I understand the difference between something that leads to a persons death and something that has no effect on the larger well-being of an individual.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

I think you’re off in your analogies, but I’m not arguing your quote. I thought it was a bit off myself.

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A Dad Supreme

No worries.
Everyone knows it’s an MMO so there isn’t any real context needed just like Overwatch isn’t really an MMO; it’s a lobby shooter.
The point stands… Zenimax seems to have a problem calling things what they are for one reason or another (stigma or cost-cutting).
Companies do this all the time and are rightfully railed on when they do by those affected.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

I agree. Honestly, I do, and I’m not a fanboy even though I’m defending the “Chapter” v DLC thing. I just think people are getting bent out of shape over..an expansion.

If you really wanted to have some meaty content to chew on, I’d read this where Matt said waaay back when that there wouldn’t be a Cash Shop. Now, THAT pissed me off when that discussion was happening, because it was evident that was entirely not the case. And, look at it now.

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Targeter

Pedantic: MOBA?! You mean arena shooter, ala Quake. Or Shadow Warrior. Loves me some Shadow Warrior.

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A Dad Supreme

Yeah, got my alphabet mixed up so just called it a lobby shooter, which it is.
Apologies.

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Targeter

Lobby shooter is exactly on the money. Emphasis on the lobby, since there’s no singleplayer option. Remember the days when a ‘multiplayer’ shooter could be played offline with bots? I want those days back.

camren_rooke
Reader
camren_rooke

Countdown to board explosion in 3… 2….

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Dug From The Earth

Why is this even a debate?

A company makes something to sell in order for them to turn a profit.

You either buy it, or dont.

Trying to manipulate the semantics of words to avoid spending money wont change this, and only makes one look cheap and pedantic.

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A Dad Supreme

“Why is this even a debate?

A company makes something to sell in order for them to turn a profit.”
========
I don’t think the people objecting have a problem with Zenimax trying to turn a profit.
I think the objections stem from Zenimax trying to turn a profit by mis-categorizing something in an attempt to get out of honoring their prior promises.

Reader
Dug From The Earth

If McDonalds was having a $1 sale on Cheeseburgers, and I tried to get them to sell me a BigMac with Cheese for $1, because hey, its got cheese on it, making it a cheeseburger, I dont think id get very far.

Is McDonalds trying to mis-categorize something unfairly so they dont have to sell it for $1? No. However people will try anything to try to keep from having to pay money for something.

Its pretty obvious that Zeni isnt trying to screw people over in this instance. Trying to play it off as them doing something unfairly is just absurd.

Whats even MORE absurd is how ESO is one of the best value MMORPGS on the market today. The amount of content you get for your money has been very impressive. If you like the game, shouldnt you be wanting to help support the games future? Why put up a stink when ultimately it may hurt the game you are enjoying? The whole mentality against this is completely counter productive.

Reader
A Dad Supreme

I think most people who have eaten at McDonald’s know the difference between a cheeseburger and their flagship sandwich, the Big Mac.
They aren’t dumb enough to try and convince them that a double-meat, triple-breaded burger is the same value as a single patty cheeseburger, so they should get it for $1.
I don’t see what value a Chapter will have OVER the kinds of DLC they’ve released in the past for free with a sub, so not sure why they have to charge extra for something that will probably be the same or less content as the past.
Not really the same thing.

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Dug From The Earth

You mean that people learned to accept that despite a BigMac being a burger with cheese, is not actually a “McDonalds Cheeseburger”? If thats the case, you are correct.

Which makes my analogy fine. People havent learned to accept what DLC is/isnt, and are taking the road of “Whatever results in me spending less money” to justify their views.

Crow
Reader
Crow

It’s not about being cheap.

In all seriousness many of us paid $500+ a month to play early MMOs and MUDs.

Crow
Reader
Crow

Either a company needs more revenue or they do not. If Zeni didn’t need more revenue, then they’d have given this free to subs.

We seem to forget how close ESO was to shutting down, and that their numbers are greatly boosted from people who bought sale lead-in $10 packages with the assumption that some of them would become whales.

The b2p issue is happening everywhere. When your only revenue, to be real, is sales and launch you’re screwed if you want to run a long-term game. We all know that a $15 sub worked for low-cost EQ and 10mil players WoW, but the cost of making and maintaining a game is insanely high, now, if you don’t want to end up like Repop where people refuse to give you a shake because you don’t have 200 artists on staff creating cutting-edge animation.

Hell, right now TSW is wasting a huge amount of resources YET AGAIN revamping their award-winning game to get more moolah. These are resources that could go toward more content but that doesn’t give returns.

Until consumers are willing to shell out some cash for the games they play we’ll be right here. I’m sorry, but the “traditional” model was a sub+box for xpacs. This is so no different. Should I be pissed that WoW doesn’t just give me all of the latest xpac if I sub? Where’s that rage?

Because at the end of the day this is cyclical. Players demand that studios make long-term, impossible “promises” and then hold them accountable to the context-less promise as if the question of “can we keep the lights on and content coming?” is easy and simple and given.

If you don’t want to pay, don’t pay. Easy. Or you can be a smart consumer and know that they seriously discount old DLC. For anyone at the point where they’re frothing for this, that is enough justification for paying a box.

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A Dad Supreme

“Your generalization doesn’t work since a large portion of our voters, including me, find the situation problematic but will still buy Morrowind. It’s not about being cheap.’
==============
I think this is how I believe.
I bought ESO but haven’t played in almost a year so this doesn’t affect me at all.
Seems to me most people would support the game but don’t like the double-speak that is happening, especially since they’ve been doing it before launch.

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Dug From The Earth

Anyone have any quotes to this double speak?

From what I can tell, its people making an issue, out of semantics, since as Bree put it “DLC has no universal definition”. So these gamers are trying to say what is/isnt DLC, and are leaning toward things in their favor (ie: keeping them from having to pay additional money)

You could take that mindset with anything really, as long as its not put into stupid clarity. This is why lawyer talk exists, because every single word has to be clarified to keep people from finding loopholes and ways around simplistic understandings.

IE: Zeni made a product, and wants to sell said product.

The only misconstruing element here is where players create one to favor their wallet.

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Dug From The Earth

So we go back to my original post

Since DLC has no universal definition as you state, we have to accept what the company says we have to pay money for, and what we get for free.

Zenimax asking 40 bucks for a product is not unreasonable or unfair in todays gaming market. If you enjoy the game, why shouldnt you be ok paying for this? Dont you want to support the game you enjoy? Dont you think good things are worth a reasonable value?

You already get a good value for the 15 dollars a month you pay. Better than most mmorpgs who charge similar fees.

Crow
Reader
Crow

So, can I suggest, that maybe players should stop pressuring devs to make such insane statements?

Crow
Reader
Crow

What, more pressure on devs to say what gives them sales now (allows them to continue dev’ing) because not getting something out the door is worse?

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Bionicall

I don’t think this is in any way more pressure on the devs. This is on Zenimax, and there own doing, for making people wonder what the value they are getting out of the subscription.

Crow
Reader
Crow

Right. All on the devs, yeah?

Fuck. ESO gives a lot of value for sub. And if people didn’t waste their crowns on crates none of this would even be an issue.

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Bionicall

You believe that “ESO gives a lot of value for sub”, and that is fine for you, but if you were someone that was wondering what to do with the crowns, or whether any of the “DLC” was worth it, this sort of announcement wouldn’t make you un-sub?? That is what I meant by “on Zenimax”

Crow
Reader
Crow

…what? I guess that my finger isn’t on the “un-sub” button always.

camren_rooke
Reader
camren_rooke

I don’t think they had pedantic dinosaurs in the first Jurassic Park movie. Maybe auto-pedantic ones.

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wratts

They really should have just planned to release Morrowind over a few DLCs like SWTOR has with its last couple. Once you make the promise you do need to stand behind it and adapt to what your customers expect, rather than playing semantic games.
This may not hurt them tremendously in the long run, but it’s a betrayal of trust no matter how they want to spin it

Reader
Loyal Patron
imayb1

Exactly this. I have no problem with the company wanting to make money or charge money for their efforts. I do have a problem with the semantics game they’re playing to get out of a prior promise.

I would have been happier if they’d pulled a mea culpa and admitted, “I know we said we wouldn’t… but we gotta charge money for this expansion.”

Crow
Reader
Crow

If you want to play that game, ESO is a mess because they’re not a sub-only game.

If they tried to keep that up there would be no ESO now.

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Drainage

Crow – do you think it is a coincidence that the top 2 “pined for” games on this website were shuttered due to revenue issues?

Crow
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Crow

Which ones? Because generally, that is the only reason a game shuts down.

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Drainage

SWG and CoH. Guess my point is you have to pay for nice AAA things.

First, you have to make a game attractive enough to garner the revenue (which ESO has done in spades).

Gamers are killing MMOs. They are expensive to run. Either everyone pays a fair share or we have FTP whaling lockbox simulators.

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Crow

I was just editing to say,

I’m going to assume SWG and CoH, both great games. Things were more complicated with the IP in SWG, but generally… yeah. Simple revenue.

And more complicated with things than straight revenue, but I assure you a red line on profit margins was the #1 reason.

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Drainage

Crow – it is the only reason, when decisions are boiled down to their core. Everything else is a scapegoat.

If you like ESO people, got to pay for it.

You mentioned the expense of voice acting and such above, for instance.

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Rick Mills

I’m not annoyed by the cost, I’m annoyed at the silly advertising. It’s self-inflicted and poorly thought out wording that anyone knew from the start was thin.

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theblackmage75

Paid expansions are a staple of the MMO genre–for B2P, optional sub, F2P, and any other permutation of these imaginable. It’s no wonder companies increasingly turn to cash shop shenanigans when again and again the core players get tightfistedly outraged over even the most legitimate of measures to keep their games afloat.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

First of all, I can’t believe this discussion is happening again. There are like, what, a handful of people who are still flailing their fists insisting that ESO is out to screw them, that DLC’s are no longer included in ESO+ subscription. Even that person you quoted gave misinformation in that thread, reiterating his entrenched misconceptions.

DLC content is still included with your subscription. After the expansion launches, there will be 2 more DLC’s this year which ESO subscribers get free access to.

What is confusing about an expansion vs DLC? Ah, right. People who are hanging onto semantics, and nothing more, no matter how many times people pull out puppets and crayons to slowly explain it to them.

WoW charges for expansions. FFXIV, GW2, EQ2 do as well, among others. Companies need to make money. Let’s not pretend ESO is setting an industry standard here, folks. As it is, each year subscribers get 3-4 beefy DLCs for free, and that model isn’t ending.

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odin valhalla

This is a perfect example of the typical anon online fan. You notice the dig? You see they can rarely argue their point from facts, they have to infer you are stupid.

Its this kind of player who will go to any end to shut you up, bully you off a forum and shout you down AS LOUDLY as possible to make sure they see and hear what they want. You will never be able to engage them, they hide behind the anonymity offered to them from the web. Meantime insulting you personally, taking shots at your intellect and worst doing damage to the MMO player base as a whole.

Companies love them, and they rarely boot them out because they provide the muscle
companies otherwise cant. When someone creates a narrative that essentially tells you that you are stupid if you don’t adhere to their point of view as their opening argument, it speaks volumes to their intent.

They dont want to hear anything other than what they have concluded. A dangerous mind set in any facet of life.

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Wanda Clamshuckr

I’m not sure what you are on about, but if you want to discuss the article, and misconceptions that some people have, sure, bring it on.

But if you just want to rant and get personal, then I’m not going to engage you any further than this.

I have links that prove the distinction between DLC and the expansion. They are in the other thread, linked at the beginning of Bree’s article in last week’s Daily Grind. It’s up to you if you read them or not. I’m up to talking about them, but I won’t engage in histrionics to derail this discussion.

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camren_rooke

They had histronic dinosaurs in the Jurassic Park movies. It’s true.

In short, I disagree with Wanda and blackmage and Zenimax about ESO’s sematic definitions and quite a few others things about the game.

I took my sub money and walked away. I’m sure they don’t care but it’s all I can do in what I felt was an abusive relationship.

I’ve said my peace and counted to three.

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theblackmage75

But… you are being no less pejorative, just as dismissive. And in the very post you are using to refute the previous poster’s comments.

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BalsBigBrother

It is a business, they need to keep the lights on and nothing stays the same forever in this genre /shrugs.

If I am being honest it does annoy me a little because of the PR hair splitting nonsense but it not annoying me enough to stop me buying it or subbing while I play.

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odin valhalla

For those of us in beta, we recall Firor telling us (to paraphrase) “your subscription will enable you to play 100% of the content” Despite many many changes including new platform launches, a new B2P model and several updates this remained true. 100% of the content was available for you to play with a subscription, until they changed what “content is”.

The simple truth of the matter is the subscription, even now I believe says you get 100% of downloadable content. It doesn’t define what zenimax thinks is downloadable, absent of that we have no choice but to take it LITERALLY.

Morrowind is downloadable, it is content, literally.

To argue against that seems ludicrous to me but i’m not surprised people are. At this point it really doesnt matter they are doing it, but seeing people argue that “100% of downloadable content” doesnt really mean “100% downloadable content” would be humorous if it wasnt such a blatant illustration of the meaning behind the word “fan”.

Most companies would kill for consumers like that, good luck to them. LOL

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Adam Babloyan

Your “point” falls flat on its face when you realize that the base game is also “downloadable” and is “content”. Literally. Why weren’t you on your high horse than?

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Emiliano Lozada

You must be new to MMOs. Subscriptions hardly if ever [outside of EvE and SWTOR] gave you an expansion for free.

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odin valhalla

1. its not an expansion per ZOS.

2. Subscriptions that state they cover 100% of the downloadable content, should include 100% of the downloadable content.

3. Morrowwind will be downloadable and its content.

Again reader, note the opening sentence. If you dont agree with their point of view, you have to be deficient in some way. You know being new means you dont understand whats happening. IRL do you take the dismissal and demure and say “oh ya you must be right”? Of course not, dont do it here either.

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Emiliano Lozada

1. It’s called a Chapter because it’s horizontal but it’s still an expansion pack not DLC.

2. Yes and you’re still getting all the DLC. Nothing has changed.

3. I’m sorry to burst your bubble but I can go to my local gamestop, bestbuy, and amazon to find Morrowind which surprise surprise IS PHYSICAL. Just because there’s a downloadable variant of it doesn’t change the fact that it is NOT DLC.

4. I know what it means. I’ve been MMOing for a long time. This is absolutely been the way since UO. Subscription gives you content packs and expansions must be paid for.

PS: If you can find me physical Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Orsinium, Imperial City, or Shadows of the Hist then you will have something to stand on. DLC =/= Downloadable Expansions. Lol

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Mr Poolaty

Wow ZO$ who even does that?

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Indigo Salma

This is the only company i know that sell really cheap cash currency in europe.
You get 3000 crowns for just 20 Euro. When it was supposed to be 30 euro for 3000.
They really don’t seem greedy at all and getting crowns is really cheap. You also get 1500 crowns with ESO PLUS each month.
I don’t play the game much but i am subscribed to it each month to find out i got 28500 crowns.

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Matthew Riddle

I think the original concept for subscribers was that since they are paying $15 a month, they shouldn’t have to pay additionally for other stuff to play the game. I think it was there way to trump the competition and offer more content for less.

One could argue Zenimax has headed away from that with housing that is greatly grindy to the point of blatantly promoting the cash shop option. Now Zenimax is arguing semantics with keywords in order to gouge the players into buying another full price game.

Now that ESO seems to be doing better, perhaps they don’t worry so much about their competition.

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Tandor

As both a subscriber on one account, and non-subscriber on the other account, I don’t have a problem with this. As with all the constant carping on the official forum, I just don’t get excited about whatever the QQ of the day happens to be.

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silverlock

This ranks right up their with phone companies charging people for going over their unlimited data plan limits.

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Adam Babloyan

I don’t know of a MAJOR phone company that charges you “overage” on Unlimited plans. You get throttled absolutely, but no overage. Histrionics as one poster called it. Straight up.

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life_isnt_just_dank_memes

i’d be super ticked if i was a “subber” but i vowed never to sub again after they got 6 months of a sub out of me back when the PC version of the game was a glorified console beta testing session for the first year. with a sub. does anyone else remember that?

can we get a poll option for that?

they earned back some good will because they did a LOT of amazing things since but this puts them back in the hole in the goodwill credit dept. with me.

Long term, this game bums me out. It’s postponed or contributed to the postponement of another single player Elder Scrolls game. ESO is really cool, but it’s not and never will be as cool as the single player RPGs and anything that contributes to delaying another of those bums me out.

I remember Larry being pretty ticked at the PC version of the game being beta testing for a year. This “chapter” nonsense is in that same vein imo. Not even thinly veiled market-speak corporate bs is what it is and people should speak with their wallets but wont because the content looks good and they are excited for it and will allow themselves to be taken advantage of. Period.

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Michael18

Regarding “chapter” vs. “expansion”:
I find this ridiculous because it has never been uncommon for MMO expansions to include content for low levels. Also, the term “chapter” suggests that something has to be consumed in a certain order, far more than “expansion” does.

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Mackdose

I disagree, since they’re using “Chapter” to mean a stand alone purchase, and in MMO land “expansions” require the base game.

Morrowind is replacing ESO:TU as the base retail game.

It’s clear as day that it’s an xpac content wise, but it’s also a newcomer’s one and only purchase to get in.

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johnwillo

I find the lack of Elf Butts in your survey disturbing.

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Eliandal

My only comment is ….agreement…with this (well, one small comment…you can see how much this bothers me BY this being my only comment :D)

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