Camelot Unchained’s Mark Jacobs streams refund payments from inside the City State Entertainment office

    
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Camelot Unchained’s Mark Jacobs streams refund payments from inside the City State Entertainment office

There’s been another stream from Mark Jacobs regarding Camelot Unchained, but it might not be quite the content some would expect of a livestream. For one, the stream is live from inside the City State Entertainment office, and for two, the broadcast involved Jacobs processing refunds.

Naturally, that’s not the only thing that was part of the stream. In it, Jacobs talked about things like streaming gameplay sometime in September once the game’s performance is in a better state, interviewing some new engineers, producers, and programmers, noting some in-progress updates on crafting, and promise of a whole lot of bug squashing in Warband. “We are pushing forward with a lot of things for CU,” Jacobs promises.

At one point in the stream, someone in the chat offered some emotional support and a wish to stay positive, to which Jacobs responded with, “Look, I am positive. If I wasn’t I wouldn’t be here. If I were all negative and stuff, I’d be like ‘Yeah let’s just turn off refunds and shut down the studio.’ […] I appreciate the good vibes. Yeah, it’s hard when you hear some of the things that you’re hearing, especially when people are lying through their teeth about certain things. But, you know, look, it’s Reddit, it’s the internet; that’s what people do.”

As for the game itself, there was a playtest this weekend gone of the Hawking server for all backers of the game which ran all the way through until Monday.

sources: YouTUbe, Twitter

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Anthony Martignolles

Marc Jacobs is a crook, we are many to ask to be reimbursed, some waiting for tens of months. Marc Jacobs always has a good excuse, right now it’s because of the pandemic. When I contacted the suport they told me to wait 60-90 days, it’s now been 8 months that I wait. This man is a liar. I invite all people in my situation to make noise and no longer wait in silence for the great Marc Jacobs to finally decide to reimburse the people who leave are project.

jimthomasUS
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jimthomasUS

W:AoR was the source of more hours of gaming for me than any of my favorite directors or authors or tv shows combined. I had such a blast running in w’s with my engy for almost a straight year like 8 hours a day.

I can love that game and be critical of what’s happening with CU and publicly wonder if a crowdfunded mmorpg is a good idea and still hold MJ in high esteem.

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rk70534

Each MMO of any significance tends to have this extremely dedicated and vocal group of haters during their development, whose goal is to kill the game and ruin careers.

It’s a kind of purgatory which developers are forced to go through; games like ESO and SWTOR are major examples in the current leading MMOs.

CU having its smaller version of what Star Citizen etc are also experiencing should such probably seen as part of a larger trend; not something that mainly arises from the issues with the game itself – finding ‘justification’ / excuses certainly – but is embedded in the larger public social sphere of gamers and industry where development of games takes place.

A tsunami wave of uncontained unhappiness that hits all boats on the ocean through which it rages.

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dinarian_

A lot of the unhappy people who you seem to think are trying to kill the game are actually just people who have been trying to get a refund since February. I can’t speak for everyone but I don’t want to kill the game I just want my money back. I am on day 201 of waiting for the promised refund.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

After having read the posts here, I note that no good deed goes unpunished.

Another axiom proved true by the internet.

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Utakata

I gotta feeling that crowd founding MMO’s was never really a better option than going through more traditional routes for both the developer and players. This game among many others seems demonstrative of that. It was a nice try while this all lasted though. /sigh

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Rndomuser

Crowdfunding MMOs is absolutely not different than, for example, crowdfunding any other kind of video game, for example RPG games like Divinity: Original Sin. It is just an option of getting additional funds, everything else depends on how competent and sane the person who owns the company is. And if the person who owns the game developing company is highly incompetent – the outcome will be the same regardless of whether they will get additional funds through Kickstarter or not.

Even when it comes to MMORPG games – take a look at Ashes of Creation, which was also partially crowdfunded through Kickstarter. Yes, there are some people who criticize it and the owner of the company which creates it, however you can see that the developers of this game do not have so many disappointed people, even with their refund policy which only provides refunds for 30 days or no refunds at all depending on the package. You can see it on YouTube, official forums and on Reddit.

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Bree Royce

AOC is probably not the best example, given that it spent all of 2019 being flamed up one side and down the other by folks mad about Intrepid making a second game on the side.

Or maybe it’s a good example of the fact that people tend to forgive and forget these things given a little bit of time and some good gameplay videos.

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Rndomuser

I agree that AoC had people criticizing it for various things, especially the fact that they sell cosmetic items with limited availability right now before the game’s official release and for their Apocalypse BR standalone game, however looking at the comments on Reddit and on YouTube it has a much more positive feedback compared to other crowdfunded games. Even when I was watching streams on Twitch where Asmongold and Summit were watching videos of AoC – I’ve seen very positive response in Twitch chat. If this game will continue being developed this way – I’d say it will have a very high chance of being a successful one, despite some people who do criticize it and who criticize the fact that Intrepid developing a stand-alone BR version of this game.

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evli66

It is not over. The article is about MJ streaming refunds to people whining about a refund even though the original refund date past. MJ extended the refund period in case others wanted out, no questions asked. The imbittered posters who seem to have nothing better in their lives have been nothing more than trolls.
I still have faith in MJ and the CSE team.

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Utakata

I’m not really discussing refunds here. (Mr. MJ is admirable and above board as usual…so that shouldn’t came as a surprise to anyone.) I am talking about /Kicjstarter MMO’s in general that mostly fail to deliver for a number of reasons and the drama’s they ignite in doing so. And the seemingly forever to release a finished product while everyone chews it out ad infinitum. I think the devs need to re-evaluate how they’re funding this, because it’s not really working out from where I am standing.

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joshisanonymous

There’s no way a major publisher of any sort would green light a project like this, hence the crowdfunding and self-funding (MJ has put his own money on the line). And in fact, the refund stuff really became a thing when Ragnarok was announced, which was only a thing because the new investor they brought in wouldn’t invest for a game like CU.

Crowdfunding allows developers to propose more original ideas, and even if it doesn’t provide enough funding to get things moving quickly, it can be used to prove interest in a weird project if the developers go to a big publisher.

(I don’t think the development time is unusual, by the way. I think it’s just that people backed this game at the very beginning and weren’t really thinking about the fact that MMOs take a very long time to make.)

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dinarian_

The refund period hasn’t past. CSE literally right this very second has a written refund policy in their webstore FAQ. Nobody asking for a refund is asking for a special extended favor, they are just asking for the CSE’s own current policy says they should be able to get.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Considering the outcomes or lack thereof for quite a lot of Kickstarted MMOs, I’d have to agree. I’d also say that crowdfunding a single player game like Divinity is a whole different bag of beans.

Using Kickstarter to gain access to heftier, long-term financial support may be a strategy, but considering the untethered behavior many display towards games they’ve given money to, I would think the first thing any Kickstarted game should do once it gets real funding would be refund Kickstarter money just to get that monkey off their back.

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Rndomuser

I’d also say that crowdfunding a single player game like Divinity is a whole different bag of beans.

Absolutely not different. A video game is a video game, people invest into them because they believe they will get a product which would be fun to play and because they believe the developer is competent enough to make such game based on past experience, doesn’t matter what genre it is. The time it takes for single-player game (Divinity is actually not a single player, but let’s assume that it is) to be developed may be shorter, but this is irrelevant because many people will be willing to wait many years for a game without complaining if there is an indication of good development progress and developer being honest with the backers.

I would think the first thing any Kickstarted game should do once it gets real funding would be refund Kickstarter money just to get that monkey off their back

Why? If the game will be good – there is no need for refunds at all because those money can be used to make the game even better regardless of extra funding they may get, something which every backer will appreciate. And if the game will be bad – refunding Kickstarter money will not make it any “better”, it will still be a failure which will be criticized by actual players of the game. Sure there will be one less reason to criticize it for because the backers will get their money back but will that still matter if the game will be a failure and developer will be forever known for creating this failure?

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dinarian_

I would love love LOVE to have my money refunded.

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G I G A B E A R

Crowdfunding is not so much a better option, as it is a different option. You tend to get far more community interaction from the developers heading up these projects than you would in a corporate project because they are dependent on keeping players happy to keep their revenue streams. That’s a huge improvement over most corporate MMORPGS which can thumb their noses at players completely.

The downside to crowdfunding is you get the occasional charlatan who manages to sell their game in crowdfunding, but is completely incapable of delivering it. Also, even when they aren’t running some kind of pyramid scheme, the game can still fail for financial reasons. It’s almost like gambling, but with the ability to do more research on the likely outcome.

I’m backing plenty of stuff, although CU isn’t one of those games. I’ve had good experiences thus far save for one project which, honestly, had red flags that a whole lot of people chose to ignore. I’m going to keep going for a while yet.

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Utakata

You coulda fooled me. >.<

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Utakata

Edit/Erratum: I miss read that (so /ignore that), here’s what I should of said…

…I’ve seen no real evidence that these problems are unique to this game. Star Citizen, to which Mr. Oleg defends tooth and nail, is in fact a poster child to this effect. But I also don’t think it’s unique to that project either. There are exceptions of course, but they seem mostly not the norm.

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flying_dutchman

I’ve backed 2 games on KS…

Cu was one, although technically I didn’t back until the game opened pay-pal.

The other was supposed to be an MMORTS called Novus Aeterno.. Which is apparently Vaporware…

I haven’t backed any other games but I can’t say I wouldn’t if something I liked popped up. I just realize that there’s a solid chance that any money I put out will likely be gone forever.

The upside of KS is the fact that it gives a chance for games that would have never been funded any other way a chance to be made… On the other hand there’s a reason the dev’s had to come to us for money instead of a real publisher.

On the CU… side I know from when I was following the game that Mark was offered major funding from at least 2 different sources but refused because he didn’t want to end up with the same issues he had with EA and WAR.

Leo
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Leo

going into the comments section of a post about this game can feel a bit surreal

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Rolan Storm

I wonder if it is possible to have ‘dislike’ button for comments? Really need it.

Jeez…

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Utakata

…/dislike buttons are always a bad idea, even under the most tempting circumstances. >.<

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Rolan Storm

Yeah, would not argue that. Yet I want one sometimes truly.

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Jim Lucas

MJ has been involved in two games I’ve loved, DAOC and Warhammer Online (which I still play). I’m sure when this comes out it will be awesome, but the hype was too much too soon. “Hey kids! We’re going to Disneyland… In eight years”.

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Jo Watt

Yea but there’s always the issue with just going off the fact that someone is associated with something you liked before. Problem being that specific team did really well. Even if the same person is in charge, the outcome isn’t guaranteed. So many projects dangle the, “from x great game” but end up subpar.

Not saying CU will not make it. I’ve just burnt out on being excited just like with SC and that game you can actually see tons of footage for.

As you said. “Hey kids! We’re going to Disneyland… In eight years”. Lol. Pretty accurate.

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mysecretid

Aye. I would be less exasperated with Star Citizen, personally, if the devs spent less time hyping the game, and more time just working on it. But that’s me.

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dinarian_

Don’t forget that originally they told us we were going to Disney in 2 years then we didn’t go in 2 years. And for the nearly 5 years since we were already supposed to be at Disney, all they have said about when we are going to Disney is “shrug”

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Rndomuser

At least some good news about this company, but after months of dealing with dishonest and delusional statements I will believe in “we will issue refunds as promised to everyone” when I will personally receive mine, and so far I haven’t received it yet.

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dinarian_

I also haven’t gotten mine. Today is day 201 of waiting for me.

HalLundy
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HalLundy

He may be positive but seriously this feels like the kind of move a dev project with no business side would do. I mean, the fact that the conversation went on to “are you depressed” shows what kind of image this gives out.

Stop making negative headlines. All publicity is good publicity is not true.

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Arktouros

As someone who is entirely not invested in Camelot Unchained this is the way this comes off to me as well. Saying something like “If I was really negative I’d stop all refunds and shut down the company” is just bad because people will now think that’s something actually being considered even if it isn’t.

This is why you don’t put developer people to talk to the public. As a developer I get what he means, but the public won’t. That’s how you end up with lines like “You think you do but you don’t” or “Don’t you have phones?” or “A sense of pride and accomplishment” and other classic developer lines.

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Mark Jacobs

Please keep in mind that the reason I livestreamed it was so that certain people wouldn’t get to say “MJ could say that all he wants but I don’t believe it!” Also to the “If it was…” that was in reference to certain people saying that everybody is refunding CU which is not even close to reality as I’ve explained before both here and on the stream but certain people have kept saying it. If it was true, the investors would just stop supporting the company, as investors in all industries do and the company would have to be shut down. That’s the way of things. No different whether the investors are VC, private, or even game publishers.

In other words, the appearance was to prove one thing, that I do go into the office and pay refunds, nothing more, nothing less. I than opened it up to questions, and answered all of them.

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Bruno Brito

That’s not the point Ark is making, tho.

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Arktouros

Please also keep in mind that the people who say unfounded things like “MJ could say that all he wants but I don’t believe it!” are the same kind of people who will invent new reasons to hate you simply because they are emotional and feel hurt or betrayed. They’re lies Mark. They can be changed, spun and retold any number of ways to fit their over all narrative against you and your project(s).

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Bruno Brito

the same kind of people who will invent new reasons to hate you simply because they are emotional and feel hurt or betrayed.

And while i don’t agree with their actions, the reason is justified. People have the right to be irritated at Mark, and as Rndmuser mentioned above, there are still people with no refunds received.

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Sorenthaz

By that logic news entities are allowed to falsify stories about people they really don’t like because they have a justified reason to try and turn their audience against individuals, even if you don’t agree with it.

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Arktouros

@Sorenthaz At no one point did I condone lying or say individuals or groups are allowed to lie.

What I said was that going out of his way to disprove a particular claim as a lie isn’t going to accomplish what he hopes to accomplish. The people who made up such lies in the first place aren’t going to be rebuked or assuaged by such actions. In all likelihood they will just draw the conclusion if they lie about him they can get him to go out of his way to disprove things. Even then they can just say it was all a show/act and that just because he made a big show of it one time doesn’t mean he does it on the regular. You can’t win that scenario because people aren’t giving you a win condition.

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dinarian_

To be fair MJ does NOT process refunds on the regular that is the whole problem and why refunds are so overdue and piled up right now. People have been begging him to pay the VERY overdue refunds for months and months and to do so regularly so that they are no longer so incredibly over due and he has refused to with the exception of the past 2 weekends. There will need to be more weekends and more refunds and refunds will need to get caught up much more significantly than what we have so far before we can call issuing refunds a regular thing that MJ is doing this year.

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rk70534

That’s just what many large media corporations think they are allowed to do, and what they have been carrying out for decades.

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Arktouros

@Bruno Brito I have extremely low empathy for anyone involved with any Crowdfunded dealings and I think it’s perilous to start saying that emotions are justified or right and wrong.

Crowdfunding has always been investment without any ability to recoup your investment should things not work out the way you thought they would. It’s always been a scam and always will be a scam.

People got overly emotional and excited for a product and believed the hype and made an irrational decision to throw money at someone with little to no promises in return. You aren’t “justified” in being angry that things didn’t work out the way you thought or were promised they were because that was always a possibility from the start. Like, obviously a possibility.

I mean by all means ask away for refunds, but misdirecting your anger at your own stupid, rash decision towards someone else is hardly justified to me.

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Rolan Storm

Exactly, Ark. 100% I don’t call crowdfounding scam, but maybe I should too. :D

Once they crowdfounded it is out of their control. So all that negativity hoopla is – again and again, and again, and again, and again with this kind of situation – about expectations. Also they don’t see that they should own their choice so they lash out.

If not justified it is how things usually go and understandable where those people coming from.

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Bruno Brito

Crowdfunding has always been investment without any ability to recoup your investment should things not work out the way you thought they would. It’s always been a scam and always will be a scam.

I mean by all means ask away for refunds, but misdirecting your anger at your own stupid, rash decision towards someone else is hardly justified to me.

I don’t blame victims, Ark. I get your point, but i don’t agree with it.

And honestly, even if i was in your position of believing that backers should get screwed by their own hubris, i’m not letting the people who pulled the con to go away scot-free either, that’s my point.

As long as CU doesn’t launch, Mark will keep hearing this stuff, and he deserves it.

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dinarian_

“Crowdfunding has always been investment without any ability to recoup your investment”

Except CSE’s webstore has a written refund policy.

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evli66

Keep it real Mark. Those of us who supported the start know what was said about how long and the expansive work your undertook. The naysayers who want money back probably shouldn’t have been a supporter in the first place.

They fail to tell the truth about the weekly updates and the transparency CSE has presented to everyone u like any other game developers.

#IstandwithCSE
#CamelotUnchained

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dinarian_

“Those of us who supported the start know what was said about how long and the expansive work your undertook.”

Yes what was said about how long the work would be is that the estimated release date was 12/2015

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evli66

“Yes what was said about how long the work would be is that the estimated release date was 12/2015”

Not sure were that date came from with the project launching in April of 2013. A 2 year turn around for a MMORPG would have made Mark a God.

Every date provided was potential completion date of part of the project.

Most MMORPG take 7 plus years without developing their own engine.

CSE was developing cube first. Then Camelot Unchained.

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dinarian_

That is the estimated release date they gave on their kickstarter. You can go to their kickstarter page right now even and see it.

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evli66

I just did a quick glance on phone and found no estimated release date.

I did find this as part of their closing

“- Creative endeavors such as an MMORPG are time-consuming processes, and as such, the dates listed above are, as the text indicates, just our best estimations for when the IT/Alpha/Beta tests will begin, not promises or guarantees.”

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dinarian_

I don’t know what the page looks like on a phone, but on a computer along the right hand side is a list of the different pledge tiers. They include 2 dates per tier. One for when they estimate access to that level of testing and then at he bottom left of each tier it says Estimated Deliver December 2015.

I am not saying they gave any guarantees, and I am definitely not saying that less than 2 years was a reasonable estimate only that the original date bakers were given was 12/2015.

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agemyth 😩

This headline doesn’t seem very negative to me. He’s just doing work on a stream.