Massively Opinionated: FFXIV vs. FFXIV vs. CoH

    
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Welcome to the second episode of Massively Opinionated! We were blown away by some of the comments you left here on the site and on YouTube. So we decided that we should keep the show around for a little bit longer. And it looks like you want to keep the show around, too. Edany (AmberACurtis) found the show a perfect fit: “This is fantastic! Great idea for fun new content. Right up my alley.” PJ Northbay on YouTube can now be at peace: “Yay! I’ve been wanting something like this from Massively for a long time.” And Age Nightroad got a laugh and had a good time watching the show: “This show is amazing! Had some great laughs and good debates, can’t wait for more!”

We love you guys too! The rules of the Massively Opinionated debate are simple: Our arbitrator, Larry Everett, invites three internet personalities to the show, asking them four questions that they can research ahead of time. The most persuasive panelist with be awarded a point after each argument, and at the end of the show, only one will reign supreme.

Our guests this week come from a wide variety of gaming niches. First, there’s writer at Massively OP and BlizzardWatch Eliot Lefebvre, cosplayer and raider Laura Williams, and writer and roleplayer Matt Daniel. And appropriately, this week we are talking about immersion. Let’s begin.

Larry’s Info
Twitter: Shaddoe
Blog: Hyperspace Beacon

Eliot Lefebvre’s Info
Twitter: Eliot_Lefebvre
Site: Eliot-Lefebvre.com
Patreon: Eliot_Lefebvre

Laura Williams’ Info
Twitter: Voidmynx
Instagram: Voidmynx
Guild site: Nefarious Intent

Matt Daniel’s Info
Twitter: Organiclockwork

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Slaphammer
Guest
Slaphammer

Lerxx  In my experience, Pirates of the Burning Sea is a perfect example of the majority of players despising open world PvP (and high loss PvP, no less).  Lots of new players would come in, stay briefly, and leave once they got ganked.  The player base has always severely limited because only the hardcore PvP players would stick around long-term.  But those players were emphatic that high-loss PvP was a great thing, even though at the same time they complained about low population.
For what it’s worth, PotBS has some really great PvE storylines, but most PvE players don’t stick around long enough to experience them.

BalsBigBrother
Guest
BalsBigBrother

breetoplay BalsBigBrother Tina Lauro bakkahentai2600 Beacon sorry I will be over here sitting on the naughty step, again /sigh
;-)

Winterskorn
Guest
Winterskorn

and pj northbay is at peace :D

Vagrant Zero
Guest
Vagrant Zero

EatCandy You aren’t married to the right person than.

Werewolf Finds Dragon
Guest
Werewolf Finds Dragon

And on the third?

Eliot again. Heh. Though my answer would’ve been either story, or diversity of mechanics. Of course, one can lead into the other. A story can be the raison d’etre for a puzzle and vice versa, so usually if one is strong, the other will follow suit. At least a little. TSW followed through on that idea. ESO sort of did, but in a very half hearted way. I feel that the puzzles and the stealth sections could’ve been more challenging, but I’m still early in the game and I may yet have a lot to see. But first impressions… I dunno, it feels they’re just appealing to people who want to hit things and don’t have time for all that gersh darn fancypants finkin’ wut some people do.

Anyway, housing is great. I’ve gushed over how I loved the superhero bases in Champions Online. It’s a little, personal space which I can retreat from the world to. That matters to me. I enjoy having that. It’s a fantastic roleplay space, too, when you want to roleplay and have some privacy. Because, frankly, until instancing across entire world spaces is a thing (and it needs to be a thing, as I’ve explained), houses are the only place you can go to do that without having someone interrupt your roleplay with something entirely terrible. The truth of the matter is that 90~ per cent of those playing MMOs are terrible roleplayers, not because of poor acting talent (though there is that), but also due to a lack of understanding of cohesion and narrative flow, and a total lack of any creativity whatsoever. So it’s not fun to play with those people, they’re just annoyances. They’d be better off playing with people like them. I accept that they exist, and I’m happy for them, and I’m happy for them to roleplay with other people. But I don’t like being forced to have to endure them.

So player housing is a great way to get away from all that. You won’t be ambushed by someone in their thirties trying MMOs for the first time and communicating with you in text speak. That won’t happen. It’ll be your own place where you can tell your own stories. It’s the inn or the pub from every fantasy tale ever. It’s where the heroes go to relax. It’s something that I feel is sorely missing in ESO. Now, if ESO had instancing (as I keep suggesting), then you could just find a pub and use that to roleplay and discuss your adventures. But without that, you really do need some system of housing to have a place to go.

And it’s a nice personal space that you can make your own.

I think my reasons for wanting this and Eliot’s reasons differ, but we both understand the need for a housing system. It allows for creativity, and expression, and not just in the furniture you have or how you’ve built the place. But you could even gussy the place up like an inn for you and yours. People did that in Wildstar, and that was perhaps, for me, Wildstar’s one redeeming feature. The player’s house is just somewhere you can go. And if I had one in ESO, I’d probably go there to fiddle with addons that don’t require any real world interactions. Though ideally I’d love to have that instanced world I want so much so I can have my own little testing lab.

I’d love a private testing lab. Sigh. Sadly, there are always people bursting in and interrupting one’s work. So when one is still in the middle of developing an under wraps, hush-hush addon, that may or may not pan out (which is why I’ve never spoken about it), having all these other people around and being pests can make that situation so much worse.

camelotcrusade
Guest
camelotcrusade

Werewolf Finds Dragon You know, for a rant, that was a pretty good one.  I can’t say those things have happened to me, and I haven’t played that game, but it was relatable.  I shall overlook the wounded superiority and as fellow introvert grant you +1.

Werewolf Finds Dragon
Guest
Werewolf Finds Dragon

Regarding the first question?

I’m honestly with Eliot on this one. I mean, the UI can be fixed. I fixed it in ESO with Windex. Fixt. Done.

Glitches are such irregular occurrences that they’re not even relevant. In fact, they can be easily dismissed as being drugged/magical after effects/what have you. It’s not really a deal breaker for me. In a world with lots of magic or high tech flying around, you have glitches in reality anyway. Elder Scrolls is all about glitches in reality.

But people? You can’t fix people. And people are everywhere. They’re shoving their junk in your face, they’re bouncing around, they’re griefing you, exploiting, making nuissances of themselves. They’re the guy in delves in ESO who’s following you around and using AOE spam abilities just to annoy you because you picked a race he has a giant, Master Race spiky hardon about. That ruins the game. Objectively. And you can’t fix that with lua.

People are the biggest deal breaker for me.

See, I play online RPGs to play them with friends. But you can’t get an online RPG experience like ESO, TSW, or Uru without playing an MMO. Yes, there’s Portal 2. Hooray for Portal 2, sing the praises of Portal 2! But Portal 2 is the exception to the rule. Usually if you want that kind of experience, you’re going to end up in an MMO, because developers stupidly think that’s where the money is.

I’d happily pay a subscription for an instanced co-op RPG where I could just hop into non-instanced towns occasionally when I want to. I wouldn’t be surprised if over 70~ per cent of the MMO players out there actually agree with me on this. We’re all getting on each other’s nerves. Even when we don’t mean to. I stole your node? I’m sorry, I’m just playing the game, like you are. I didn’t mean to do that, here, let me give it to you. But I was just playing the game, like you were. Due to latency, I wasn’t even aware you were there. So I’ve annoyed someone with my presence. With just my presence. That’s bad game design, and bad game design that even ESO sadly suffers with. Game design that’s broken so badly that it appeals to griefers and needy extroverts at the expense of EVERYONE else.

So instancing is the solution. Let the people choose. Let me choose if I want to go into a public delve or an instanced delve. Let me choose if I want a public version of Auridon or an instanced one. Let me choose if I want to interact with other people or not. FORCING this on the players only creates a toxic community that quickly shrivels up and dies, and then leaves. And then the MMO dies. This is probably number one of my top ten (which I’ve mentioned elsewhere) list of MMO killers. This really is numero uno. By allowing instanced play, you’re sustaining a larger group of players. And you’re not forcing individual and private introverts into the same play area as needy, desperate extroverts. The extroverts can have each other, and the introverts can play in their own instances with those friends of those they know to be good people, to represent a quality of human life a cut above the average. If an introvert picks you as a friend, you know you’re far above the average, that’s the nature of the beast.

But extroverts gather with everyone, including the obnoxious people who want to shove their junk in your face. So let them gather together. And provide optional instancing. Anyone who fights this is just trying to deny the right of people to play their own way, they’re trying to force their way of life on other people. Desperate extroverts are clingy with people who just don’t want them, and that’s why they’d want to deny instancing as an option.

And I’m not saying force this on everyone. I wouldn’t. Make it an option.

MMOs from this point on NEED the option for content to be experienced in an instance. They need to give their introverted players the ability to turtle away. That doesn’t mean we won’t ever come out. We will. In towns and such we may even want to occasionally communicate and be social. Then we’d be fortified and prepared for those people who want to shove their junk in our faces. We’d be ready to put up with that. But if I’m in a delve, and roleplaying with a friend, I unequivocally Do Not Want that junk-shover accompanying me.

And yes, this is a problem. The other day, when I was testing an addon (I’m an addon developer), I had someone get up on a crate and try to shove their junk in my face because they thought I was AFK and it was so funny to their pointless, shallow, extroverted mind. Because shoving your junk in someone’s face for selfies is something you just do in extrovert land. No thanks. This is why I want my own instance for me and mine. There is no issue in MMOs worse than other people. The only thing that comes in line with it is exploitative, addictive game design which is insulting to my intelligence, but that’s usually in games aimed at extroverts, anyway.

In something like ESO, it would be improved ten thousandfold by allowing people to choose either private or public instances of places. And the technology is in place for that. If they did that and advertised it they’d have millions more players overnight.

Loyheta
Guest
Loyheta

For 44:50 question the mechanic I find most immersive is non-instancing. I can understand the purpose of an instance and I’m fine when it comes to dungeons but I love being able to run around and see player build houses/cities. I get why it is hard to do these things but I can’t help feeling sucked out of the game when I run into a different plane of existence to see someone else’s house, most of the time only by invitation. I also don’t like when my friends disappear when I pass an arbitrary point in space just because I’ve done the quest. If you are going to phase then allow anyone to join you. Now on this discussion I run into a problem.. main story. Now do we do it like ffxiv or gw2? Where in gw2 allows other players to accompany you in the main story while ffxiv you can’t even do them with your chocobo.
Anyways.. I don’t like phasing/instancing. Player run economy is a great one too. To character creation I can only ask one question.. is controlling how your character looks immersive? Most people have no control of the way they look. But honestly a person is usually more invested in their character if they like how they look. But that is investment vs immersion… appeal vs atmosphere.

Mansemat
Guest
Mansemat

For Laura

breetoplay
Guest
breetoplay

BalsBigBrother Tina Lauro bakkahentai2600 Beacon DAMMIT BBB. DO NOT GO GIVING THEM ANY IDEAS.