Camelot Unchained wraps up 2020 with hope and cheer

    
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Before you completely write off 2020, Camelot Unchained would like to have a word with you. Wait, whom are we kidding? This is Camelot Unchainedit would like to have many, many words with you!

In the final report for the year, City State’s Mark Jacobs ran down the assorted projects that the team is working on for both games, showed off a few art assets, and teased what’s to come in the new year: “We expect January/February to have lots of new stuff for you to play around with including the new area, giants, and I hope, an update to crafting (I’m going to get some engineering/design time on it) and more.”

If that’s not enough required reading, there’s also the latest newsletter to digest! One of the big topics was how “islands” of play will work in Camelot. “No island will be created in the shadow of the other,” the team said, “In other words, every single island will have something that makes it different from the others. Be that prospects/resources, different mechanics, different gameplay.”

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dinarian_

Day 328 of waiting for a refund…still waiting.

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Loyal Patron
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Dean Greenhoe

Looking forward to see how this new year plays out. I wish the studio well as we traverse this unknown future together.

Good luck and get to work. :)

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Attorneyatlawl_MMO

As an original kickstarter backer, I’m excited to see Camelot Unchained starting to focus on gameplay more and more. I think the tech stuff has been tiring but it was vital to have a rock solid foundation for a working game.

I am looking forward to this year for cu big time and feel excited again after awhile of being a bit mild on keeping tabs. My hope is thus will be one heck of a progress-filled year and I’d bet money it will be.

I have interacted with Mark some from beta’ing and playing WAR, as well as daoc way back when. I love his communication style and frequency in general.

My 2 cents on the whole refund thing is the same few posters drag comments off every time need to stop their personal, angry crusade. Everyone knows the refund status from the forums, including them. It just is annoying at this point and looks petty. I know you are entitled to the refunds and I’m sure your place in line will come up. I don’t think there’s some grand conspiracy that they can’t pay them, which just sounds silly. We know covid screwed things up and continues to on refunds.

Amyway, CU I think is going to finally emerge from the tech business mostly this year, and I for one can’t wait to see what they do! =)

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Koshelkin

It would be nice if this would be closer to release but the way these updates go, it doesn’t look like this is going to go gold this year. I’d love to see it, feature-complete and with a realized vision, as it is conceptually just the type of pvp game I’d want but we’ll see what will become of CU. I hope this is and stays a passion project for the devs, and not a constant source of frustation.

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Attorneyatlawl_MMO

It’s definitely a passion project too. No question.

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Dakota Royal

Too be honest…I gave up on my refund long ago…I realized im not gonna ever see that money again. CU actually helped me to learn a lesson on never backing a game ever again. I stopped sending emails…what’s the point? I honestly dont think the company has the money to return any kind of refund honestly. Its all tied up somewhere in development or oweing investors that they cant possibly afford to give back to those honest folks who just want their money back…its just a con on a greater scale. I use to be head over heels for this game…now its just the long con and im betting against it ever being released and you can take that to the bank.

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Drunk3nShaman

I got a refund a few years ago (not full refund but downgrade from lifetime to basic) but it was more because of my situation not CU’s , since I have put that money back and look forward to some real progress on game play this year since most of the tech stuff is done-ish.
I hope you get your refund and if not maybe the you will enjoy the game once it is playable in a full alpha/beta.

I look at it as an investment (lifetime) I missed out on the lifetime for LOTRO and STAR TREK ONLINE when I should have, not missing this one even if the game is a decade late.
After playing fractured I’m about to drop a lifetime on that, and I’m currently having fun with New World so to be honest not upset at CU taking long I just want a good game and I trust Mark to deliver at some point.

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dinarian_

I didn’t see anything in the newsletter about over due refunds. I am on day 301 of waiting and can’t get any news or even a reply from customer support.

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dinarian_

I tired to ask MJ on stream for an update about refunds and he straight up admitted that he is ignoring me there as well. Sure it would be easier to ask these questions to support but MJ has already admitted they have been instructed not to respond.

These are the personally attacking questions that I asked that warranted me being silenced from their twitch and that MJ refused to answer.

1. In light of you having said that you process refunds once a week now since you finally resumed doing them again on September 13, 2020, which was 16 Sundays ago, are you finished yet with the refunds that were requested in February 2020? I am on day 301 of waiting for my refund. I am still waiting, and I don’t even have the current longest wait.
2.How many refunds requested in 2020 have you paid and how many refunds requested in 2020 are still outstanding? How many hours per weekend do you spend actually in the office actively processing refunds? How many refunds do you process on an average weekend? At the average rate of refunds per week that you process when do you estimate the refunds will all be completely paid? I am on day 301 of waiting for my refund. I am still waiting, and I don’t even have the current longest wait.
3. Why have you instructed support to not respond to legitimate requests for information about legitimate refund requests that are legitimately EXTREMELY overdue? Do you really think it is appropriate and professional to provide no support to legitimate customers with legitimate issues because a stranger none of us knows (or has anything to do with) was rude in emails that we were not even part of? Especially considering that via customer support emails is the ONLY way to officially contact CSE about the refunds you still have not paid.
4.How do the investors feel about being nominated MMO with the stormiest future?

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dinarian_

Just so everyone can see. Here (for context) is where MJ said he would let the community know when he finished February refunds, so me asking for an update on the status of February refunds is not some random question from left field. It is simply asking for an update that MJ said he would provide. https://massivelyop.com/2020/12/02/camelot-unchained-talks-up-development-of-a-new-verdant-forest-biome-and-rvr-map/#comment-779000

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draugris

Jesus Christ dinarian, you don´t have to capture every single article about CU and whine about your refund request. We got it, you waited already long, it´s not OK, you should have gotten it by now yadda yadda yadda, we understand. Can you please spare us your repetitive pages long rant on what a terrible company CSE is, it´s boring and it´s off topic to the article. No wonder you got ignored by now, you are annoying, to say the least.

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dinarian_

This is an article about CSE ‘s latest newsletter. It isn’t out of line to think that news about the continued lack of refunds or at least an update on progress should be included. CSE ignores refunds on purpose so that people like you can say don’t talk about it that is off topic and then if nobody talks about it, CSE can continue to get away with ignoring the many many people other than just me who like me are also still waiting for their refunds since early LAST year.

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draugris

You post on EVERY article about CSE about your refund. And guess what, there are things more important about CU to tell than your personal refund problems, I know that might be new to you and shocking. I bet you would even whine about your refund on an article about MJ´s dog. Honestly keep your refund problems where they belong, between you and CSE, the rest of the world, and their mother and grandmother have already heard enough..

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dinarian_

But it isn’t my personal refund problem. A lot of people have been waiting since February of last year to have their refunds honored and like me a lot of people are still waiting. At 303 days of waiting I don’t even have the longest wait time of all the people still waiting. It is a very big problem and a lot of backers are trying to get their refunds honored. We were promised they would be honored in up to 90 days. MOP even covered that promise that MJ made in February of 2020.

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draugris

Yes exactly, and since you flood every thread about CU with your tears. WE KNOW IT ALREADY

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dinarian_

Well, what would you have me do then? Should I ask MJ about the refunds during his Q&A streams? Because in his most recent stream he admitted that he is intentionally ignoring my refund questions. Or maybe I should email CSE’s official customer support email address?….The one that MJ told everyone was the address we should send our refunds issues to? Oh darn MJ said in the comments of another article that he instructed support to not reply to people asking for an update or ETA on their refunds that they were promised in up to 90 days but that they are still waiting for hundreds of days later. In my case 304 days later and still waiting. Maybe I should ask about it on the unofficial CU subreddit where one of the darling posters calls refunders sociopaths, you know the sub MJ gave such a glowing endorsement of in his last stream? Oh except I spent the past month trying to get the mods there to remove the abusive user flair that the mods for the CU sub force assigned to me.

View post on imgur.com

Should we just all be quiet and let CSE get away with not honoring peoples refunds? Let the issue be swept up under the rug and hidden?

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draugris

Stop acting like a 5 year old when mom does not buy her favorite treat. you have made yourself heard, and rightfully so, not 1 not 2 not 3, numerous times in your posts here, on the internal forums, on reddit and also on MJ´s last stream. I am sure everybody, each backer, each reader, and even MJ has got it, you want your money back. Fine, you have every right to demand that. Have you gotten it back by now? Obviously not, instead your constant and permanent whining only got you ignored by MJ. So I don´t know how hard to understand it is for you that words will not take you anywhere right now. If I were you I would consider taking legal action, at least talking to a lawyer if that is a realistic option or not. I don´t know about how much money we talk, if we talk 20$ i don´t think that it would make sense, if we talk 2000$, I would try that. A letter from a lawyer sometimes works miracles in companies. I mean it´s crystal clear there are problems why refunds are not paid back in a timely fashion, either there are so many that you are number xxxxxxxxxxxx in MJ´s magical list or there is simply a problem in the cash flow, or maybe both of it. For sure there is more to it than only Covid-19. If CSE goes out of business a disgruntled backer would be the last on the list of creditors that gets anything back, so I would stop talking and instead trying to act and if that´s not possible, writing it off.

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dinarian_

You keep talking about it like it is just me and just my refund, But again it isn’t just me that is still waiting to get their refund, and it isn’t just my emails that MJ has instructed support to ignore.

I have brought the still unpaid refund issue up here and on reddit, that is true, but I haven’t posted on the forum since early March if I remember correctly. I am not down with hiding the unpaid refund fiasco behind MJ’s convenient forum NDA, that is just more letting CSE sweep this under the rug and keep it quiet. So maybe you have me mixed up with someone else’s posts there?

In terms of legal action, when and if to take such a big step is a personal choice that everyone still waiting for a refund will have to make for themselves. If you have any specific legal resources that you would like to link refunders to, surely there are some people who would appreciate it (Although I obviously don’t speak for all refunders so that is just an assumption on my part).

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draugris

Girl, it is just about you and your refund. You are not a chosen community advocate. You fight for yourself and other backers who want a refund fight for theirs. We do not know how many backers wanted a refund, we do not know how many backers got a refund and we do not know how many got, like you like to phrase it, “ignored”. If you really think that you are doing this for the community, I don´t know, nobody asked you to do that, and based on your posting history and what you actually write you should maybe stop since that issue seems not to be healthy for you.

I am also not mixing you up with somebody, your nickname is anywhere the same. Again you brought that issue up numerous times and if you continue writing nothing will change. Either you will eventually get your refund if it´s your turn / if you try to get it through a lawyer or you won´t get anything because CSE goes Kaboom. Constant crying will not change anything. Everybody understands already what you want.

I am not a lawyer and I am not American so I can´t help with legal resources. But if CSE would have tried that stunt in my country I would have not been so patient with them as you are.

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dinarian_

Again, I haven’t been on the forums since March, backers can log in and check out my profile there to see for themselves but I cannot offer a screenshot of my profile page due to the NDA.

Also, a lot of what you say we don’t know, we do know. We do know that it isn’t just me getting ignored. It is a frequently brought up topic by a number of people and MJ has even confirmed that he told support not to respond to people with follow up emails asking for updates or ETA’s. We know that because MJ told us so. And we do also know that after 17 weekends of MJ claiming that he is working on refunds (since September when he says he finally resumed doing them) that we are still on refunds from February of 2020. The last publicly reported refund was from 2/18/2020.

As for hopefully one day getting my refund because it is my turn, my turn was passed up long ago that is the problem. I was promised a refund in up to 90 days, 304 days ago. The issue isn’t that I don’t want to wait for my turn, the issue is me and a lot of people have waited for our turns and we are still waiting hundreds or days after our turn, and we are still waiting.

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draugris

And how many times you need to read about CSE´s strange refund policy? Have you lived under a rock the last months? Every backer and his mother and grandmother knows by now that CSE has problems with their refund handling for a long time. If you really wanted to make an informed decision about trusting CSE as a company based on that instead of white knighting for dinarian you would have already made that decision.

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draugris

So i am white-knighting for CSE while acknowledging that they have problems in their refund process. So either you have absolutely no idea what a white knight is, or you simply can not read. Either way, i guess you are not a backer, please don´t become one, you are not the type who should fund kickstarter games. Buy the game when it´s finished and released, or don´t buy it, i don´t care.

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Bruno Brito

Wait, question. Are you waiting for support ever since day 1, or did support answer you on these 301 days and they couldn’t solve your issue?

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dinarian_

I have not been able to get a reply from support since September 21st when I sent the following email.

“Support, It is almost October and Virginia has been at phase 3 of reopening since July 1st, MJ has already been in the office, and out to eat. This we can’t go into the office to do refunds is no longer a valid excuse. Also copy/pasiting the exact same excuse over and over again does not actually answer my question. WHEN WILL MY REFUND BE PROCESSED? Please process mine and my husband’s refunds immediately and let me know when we can expect that to happen. Enough excuses and enough BS*. WHEN WILL WE HAVE OUR REFUNDS?!?!?! Sincerely, My Name.”

*Full disclosure in my email I wrote out the full word, but I am not sure of MOPs rules so I edited it to just say BS in this post, but I am in fact guilty of swearing in the original email.

Add
Even when support did reply, it was the exact same reply again and again. They are WFH and can’t do refunds until they are in the office. – Wait indefinitely is the only answer I have ever gotten.

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Bruno Brito

Yeah, i get your point and i think you have a valid complaint here ( and man, is it valid ), but that’s the kind of email that won’t go through on a support desk.

Honestly, if i were you, i would just make a template email and send it being extremely polite, and use it as a copy paste every month.

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dinarian_

Nobodies temper is perfect myself definitely included, I do own what I said which is why I copied it for everyone to see. In total the email chain between me and CSE is 24 emails long with 7 replies from CSE. 2 were to get my information and confirm I was on the “list.” The final 5 have all said some variation of what this email from them says (copy/pasted below) although some include excuses about the computer that can’t be moved.

“Hello,

We are still working from home at this moment. We do not have a date yet on when we will be back at the studio. We do appreciate your understanding at this time. ”

I for the record am not understanding regarding why refunds are taking 301 days and counting to be honored and thought that I had gone to great lengths to make that clear….to uhm…everyone lol

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Mark Jacobs

Just so we’re clear:

1) I told you months ago that I was going to ignore you here, just as I had to do so on the Forums due to the type of behavior you engaged it. A good example is that BB asked you a direct question ” Are you waiting for support ever since day 1, or did support answer you on these 301 days and they couldn’t solve your issue?” which you didn’t directly answer but instead made a list of what’s wrong with me/CSE/support. This is exactly one of the reasons I ignore you. You’ve done the same thing to me here, Reddit, and on the CU Forums. All you had to start with was “CSE support answered my initial request in xxx days but then…” but you didn’t do that.

2) At Mythic/CSE I had/have a policy that if anybody swears/curses/abuses a CS person they are banned immediately and ignored. Nobody gets to do that to my people, whether CS, dev, CM, or anybody else. I am not saying you abused CS, I’m just stating a long-standing policy of mine.

3) You started this thread saying that if we had support, you could send them your questions but then you listed questions that no support team in the world could/would answer. You have no right to know how many refund requests we have. You couldn’t get that information from any company in the world, yet you try to make an issue of the fact that I won’t answer that question. And the problem with this is that you know darn well that you couldn’t get that information but you ask it anyway and then try to make CSE/me look bad because I wouldn’t answer it.

4) You admit that you sent 24 emails to CS and you encourage other people to do so. That resulted in our support person being overworked and at times, upset with the venom hurled at her directly by some people.

And in terms of your silencing on the livestream, as you know I knew nothing about that and I even tried to answer what you asked about the drama on Reddit so I did not totally ignore you. That drama was also something I knew nothing about but I did try to open the image to see what you were trying to say so I could respond to you. The fact is that you didn’t let up during the stream and got into arguments with non CSE people during the livestream both before and I think after, the silencing.

I’m going to go back to ignoring you here now.

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Bruno Brito

2) At Mythic/CSE I had/have a policy that if anybody swears/curses/abuses a CS person they are banned immediately and ignored. Nobody gets to do that to my people, whether CS, dev, CM, or anybody else. I am not saying you abused CS, I’m just stating a long-standing policy of mine.

Is this a internal policy or it’s something you alert everyone ( including backers ) about?

Also, i still think you should just pay her and be done with it, honestly.

Also, she did answer me. She just didn’t include that information initially. She said she got a answer on September that basically didn’t solve anything, so it was the latter.

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dinarian_

I have never heard about that policy before today, but okay, ban me (spoilers I am banned from CSE platforms already because I kept saying that refund word and so that makes me a boogey man…oh yeah I also call the 2nd game the betrayal game).

BUT,

Them kicking me off their discord doesn’t change anything about my refund and so many other peoples refunds being so incredibly overdue still. And it doesn’t change that if we hear any update at all it is MJ saying he is sorry but also saying there will be no changes to the procedure. Sorry with no changes, and all we ever get is no estimate and no updates other than continue to wait indefinitely and we appreciate your understanding. REfunders just continue to wait and wait and we still can’t even find out if refunds from February of 2020 have been completed in 16 weekends worth of work?

Edit removed a randomly typed L at the end of my post

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dinarian_

Your first response to my first question was that you were intentionally ignoring me. It is in the stream people can see for themselves.

And no I did not let up. Refunds are still outstanding no matter how hard you want that issue to remain quiet. The issue is not an expired equine while the refunds remain unpaid. You need to get caught up on the refunds, not eventually, now…YESTERDAY….seriously. People asking non refund questions were permitted to ask more than 1 questions…they even got replies. You have been working on refunds for 16 weekends now that you have resumed doing them so, have you finished February of 2020 yet?

1. I did answer BB I told him what he asked which was that the last time I got a reply from CSE was in September and I gave him examples of mean things I have said and even went on to give him information that he didn’t even ask for which was the total count of the emails sent between me and CSE.

2. I did in fact swear in an email, I don’t deny it I copy pasted it here for everyone to see. If banning me is your policy in regards to swearing then okay. That still doesn’t make the issue of my unpaid refund vanish though. I am still on day 301 of waiting and still waiting.

3. The questions I listed today here are the ones that I asked you in your stream and you went out of your way to say that you were intentionally ignoring me and them in your live stream today. You told us in a different mop article that you would let us know when you finished with February 2020 refunds, so why can’t I get at least an answer to that question? Have you at least finished the refunds from February of 2020 in the 16 weekends that you have been processing refund?

4. Yes in 301 days of waiting I have asked for updates multiple times and frequently have not received an answer. You see I was not getting updates long before I was guilty of swearing. If you want an exact count. My first follow up email was on June 17th 2020 when I had only been waiting 103 days. It was the 4th email I had sent (all the previous ones were to get onto the list to begin with – I had some reservations about the demand that I email CSE my home address so there was some emails sent before I was even on the magical refund lottery list) for a total of 20 emails in 10 months. And yes I do and would encourage anyone who wants an update on their refund to contact CSE at the support email you told us was the place to contact CSE, that is where you have directed people to contact you at about refunds, right? To the best of my understanding directing people to the proper support channels is the correct information to provide, am I wrong about that?

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Bruno Brito

You answered me, Di.

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dinarian_

<3

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Dro Gul

All those points may be valid. I have no idea. But what stood out most was what you didn’t say. You did not address her request for a refund. If the woman is going on a year of waiting I think that, no matter what else she says, that is a very legitimate gripe. Ban her from all your sites, ignore her everywhere but if she is entitled to a refund then please, for the love of God just give it to her.

Pepperzine
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Pepperzine

I think you forgot

“5.) We’re processing her refund and she will have her money back shortly.”

Just give her the promised refund and this issue disappears.

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Narficus

Just give her the promised refund and this issue disappears.

Precisely, that was all that needed to be done.

MJ has spent more time dodging and giving excuses than it would have taken to process the refund, to the point it appears like he’s really enjoying doing this to those who once could trust his word.

It certainly doesn’t look good to those considering joining onto CU, as Streisand Effect is a thing – again maybe done intentionally.

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Oleg Chebeneev

How convinient for you Mark to find a reason to not give her refunds and just ignore her.

Im sure you give yourself a reason to ignore all other backers who asking for refund. Reason that suits you.

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dinarian_

Just an update, support emailed me today, finally. Here is their reply from this morning.

“Your refund is in queue. We are very sorry for the delay. The entire studio is still WFH. Mark Jacobs is processing the refunds when he is in the office on the weekends. He is the only person who can process refunds, so it will take time. We appreciate your patience.”

So to sum up CSE finally emails me back and all they say is please continue to wait indefinitely.

They don’t mention that MJ has been processing refunds for 17 weekends now and is still only up on February 2020 refunds.

If it takes 17 weekends to process a month of refunds, at the current pace, it will be 3 more years before 2020 refunds are finished.

Add
‘it will take time.” is such a flippant thing to say. Honestly it is flippant to the point of being rude. Like yeah I know it will take time, so far it has taken 305 days and I am still waiting.

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dinarian_

Update 2 now that I have made it so public that CSE was blowing off legitimate emails, they have mysteriously begun to respond. Here is their second response. Now they say that refunds will be processed faster once MJ AND the team can return to the office. BUT MJ has been saying since the beginning that he is the ONLY person that can access and process refunds, so what does the team being back in the office have to do with refunds?

Email below

“Your refund will be processed in the order it was received. After Mr. Jacobs finishes the February refunds, he will begin processing the refunds from March, which is when your refund request came through to CSE. Mr. Jacobs continues to process refunds on the weekends and we can assure you that the current pace will improve once he and the team can return to the office on a full-time basis.

We thank you for your continued patience on this matter.”

Add
I didn’t mean to bold the email text…. formatting fail on my part and I am sorry.

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

This will be the last time I’ll ever respond to you, let’s be clear about that. I have said, multiple times, that when CSE returns to the office, I’ll join them and refunds will speed up. This is nothing new. I’ve said it in streams, I’ve said it in other places as well. I’ve also said that once I get the vaccine, I’ll head into the office even if the team can’t join me. And given that my wife and I are higher risk cases, it shouldn’t be much longer till I can do that. Our support person is simply responding using a standard response.

It’s apparent that you are continuing to do the thing that caused me to cease responding to you, using any statement by me or CSE to your own benefit, while ignoring everything else.

And as to why support responded to you today, I said it was okay in this case so you could have some additional confirmation of what the situation currently is. And of course, you then used it to suit your narrative, just as you’ve done in the past. And then, just now, you sent another message to support, asking her to answer questions that she is incapable of answering as you well know as well as negative comments about me and CSE.

Any further responses to me will be dutifully ignored.

Mark

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dinarian_

I didn’t twist anything I literally copy and pasted exactly what CSE said so everyone could see what refunders are being told (now that they are finally being told anything at all).

Continue to wait indefinitely, is not an acceptable answer, this is day 306 of waiting in my case.

You have said you are the only person who can do refunds, so when the team can work in the office has nothing at all even slightly to do with when you can process them.

If anyone thinks that I am twisting what was said and would like screenshot of the emails posted, just let me know and I will edit out my name and email address and post them so everyone can see that I twisted nothing.

Add
Neverminded, here is the link showing CSE emailed me word for word what I copy pasted here.

View post on imgur.com

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Mark Jacobs

I see you edited your previous message after I responded. I’ll do the same

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dinarian_

I edited my messages, yes. The first one today was edited to indicate that I had bolded some stuff by mistake, I did not change any words or sentences, I only touched the add portion of my reply after I wasn’t able to figure out how to unbold that stuff. And the second message I edited to include the screenshot. I again didn’t take anything out of my original comment. What are you alleging I have revealed and then edited out?

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

I’m done responding. I’m also instructing support not to respond to you since you use the emails to also attack CSE, myself, and to ask the same question(s) multiple times within a few hours even when you are told that is nothing else to add, thus wasting her time.

Mark

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dinarian_

Well, maybe if we are lucky some internet slueths will come along who know how to find archived comments and they can put to rest whether or not I edited my posts in a way that took out anything or changed what I had said.

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Mark Jacobs

Dinarian,

In your previous message you said that “You revealed…” and that’s what I was referring to. And as to the twist, you twisted support’s words about “CSE returning to the office” to make it seem like that was something new or awful, when that same thing has been said countless times. And, as you know because you’ve been in livestreams where I’ve said that as soon as my wife and I can get vaccinated, I’ll go into the office, even before the rest of my team.

Edit: And the problem is that since you made these posts about our support and essentially accused me of delaying things with a new wrinkle, I had to waste my time doing this when I could have been doing other things. And even if I had a CM, that person would have had to talk to me about this and either way my time would have been wasted when I could have been working on other things.

Edit2: Again, for emphasis since you are continuing the conversation. This phrase is what you twisted “ONLY person that can access and process refunds, so what does the team being back in the office have to do with refunds?”

Support says that and you make it seem like I’m changing things, even though you know that’s not true from multiple livestreams.

Mark

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dinarian_

Again I did not twist what support said, I posted exactly what support said for everyone to see for themselves, and then I provided a screenshot to back it up.

Support says continue to wait indefinitely. I am on day 306 of waiting. You say you have been going in to do refunds for the past 17 weeks…..I am still waiting for a refund. You are still only on refunds from February of 2020….that is almost a year ago.

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dinarian_

To respond to your edit. I am sorry that you consider doing your job to be wasting time. But processing refunds and providing customer support for those STILL unpaid refunds is part of CSE’s job. If you don’t want to waste your time providing customer support for the refund fiasco, then maybe you should try you know paying the refunds you owe, then no customer support about them will be needed.

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Narficus

How many damn times do you need to be “done responding”?

Do what needs to be done and end your bad customer service. You’ve clearly spent more time on waffling and handwaving until it had to blow up to have anything be done about this, and then spent more time waffling and handwaving about fixing the problem.

FIX THE PROBLEM AND BE DONE WITH IT.

NO MORE EXCUSES.

NO MORE DEFLECTION.

NO MORE SHIFTING BLAME.

DO IT.

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dinarian_

Just for clarity, when MJ says I responded about negative comments about him and CSE, this is what I emailed them today.

View post on imgur.com

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Rndomuser

I dunno why you are still trying anymore. It is very obvious to any rational person that they are most likely intentionally trying to delay refunding to many people (if they didn’t – they would have simply done a thing like every competent company does, hire more people to process refunds faster). Most likely explanation for that is they cannot financially afford refunding every person who requested those refunds, there is no other good explanation, especially when it comes to not hiring more people to process refunds faster, who can do it locally at the office or remotely. This is most likely also why they don’t have a proper customer support system on official website where a paid customer can track a refund request, just like, for example, I could on GOG.com’s online store, without asking about refund status update on forums or sending multiple e-mails about it to customer support. This is also why they do not want to provide proper, courteous e-mail updates to every backer who requested refund – this was the last e-mail I ever received regarding refund request, since that it was complete silence from CSE’s customer support despite me providing all required information:
email

They just hope most backers who requested refunds will forget about refunds after waiting for a long time. And reminding about refunds won’t really change anything – it’s pretty obvious they will not process your (and other people’s) refunds faster because as I said above, most likely they cannot afford to do this in terms of finances and they cannot admit that they cannot afford to do this because it will naturally detract many potential customers from buying the access to CU.

So yea, at this point I would just suggest quit reminding that they are delaying refunds, quit wasting any time on writing emails to the support, relax and enjoy observing the repeat of story of Daikatana ;-) At least this is what I personally intend to do from now on (this will be last article dedicated to Camelot Unchained on Massively I will comment at, I just bothered to reply because I saw your post).

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dinarian_

I keep trying to talk about refunds still even now because if CSE goes out of business or if they stop work on CU officially or anything like that I suspect that chances of getting refunds will become impossible. Right now while they are still in business and officially working on the game is refunders only chance to ever actually get their refund requests honored.

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Rndomuser

The chances of getting a refund are already nearly impossible because of what I have said above (CSE is most likely unable to afford to refund everyone, considering all their behavior so far). And you talking about refunds won’t improve your chances in any way, you will just be ignored or provided with worthless answer by the company. You (or other backers) constantly talking about it will only antagonize crazy fans of this game more, who are capable of things like stalking and harassing people across different social platforms, as you and some other people have experienced already (I don’t think I should remind you of mentally unstable owner of certain subreddit who follows critics of this game everywhere that person can, as well as few other fans who engage into same activity but in less aggressive way). Do you really enjoy being harassed by those irrational, unstable people?

Seriously, just save your mental well-being and give up. That’s my honest advice to every person who still criticizes this game or is waiting for refund, despite me also waiting for it.

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Bruno Brito

Better: She should just post something like:

“Day 320 of waiting for refund. Still nothing.”

It’s a more neutral template, she won’t waste much of her time and mental health with it, and honestly, i don’t think criticism of CU should stop. Remember the state of this industry. Gamers need to keep trying to criticize ( constructively ) their devs. Remembering them that honoring their commitments is a “do or die” oath is paramount.

But you do have a point, and it’s clear both her and Mark are tired of this already but neither want to give in, so i just think they should do what they already do from a more healthy standpoint. Dinarian keeps criticizing, but on a more template-format, and Mark answers his critics and fans.

And nothing ever improves.

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Utakata

To me this appears to becoming a personal matter. And I’m not sure this is really the appropriate place to bring this up.

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dinarian_

It isn’t personal, because it isn’t just me not getting my refunds. There are many people still waiting for refunds. At 301 days and still counting, my wait isn’t even the longest wait. It was a public issue last February when MOP reported that MJ promised to honor the refund requests, so I don’t see why failure to honor that promise isn’t also public.

Camelot Unchained’s Mark Jacobs apologizes for Colossus reveal, promises roadmap and siege video tomorrow

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Utakata

I’m not talking about the refund issues per say. That is, if there problems of folks getting it in due course, then it’s reasonable to raise awareness about it.

…I’m talking about how to best approach this. And turning it into a personal crusade on every venue where the developer feels the need to block you, suggest it’s starting to cross boundaries. Not somewhere you should be going. And instead, it feels like a grievance to axe grind…which will most likely not get you anywhere at best.

It kinda reminds when Derek Smart went on his refund crusade against Chris Roberts over at CIG back in the day. And how he used to spam up our comment section on every Star Citizen articles for months on end about it…even threatening legal action. And I don’t think it got him anywhere either, beyond a lot of feathers ruffled and his name likely added to many /kill files and moderation round bins.

So don’t be like Derek Smart. Learn find more productive ways to deal with this. As the current course doesn’t appear to be working. Thanks. /bows

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Bruno Brito

There’s a “small” difference between the DS situation and Dinarian’s:

Smart was brigading. He had a legion of fanboys to shittalk CIG and disrupt development. He attacked Sandi, and Chris directly.

Dinarian is literally just posting long rants on MOP threads. While i agree this will hurt her more in the long term because these things do stick with you, i don’t think she’s wrong into fighting for her refunds. The gaming scene is a flaming turd because devs and companies have too much freedom with what is a ungodly ammount of money and few people actively fight against it.

But again: A templated format for her just to remind people there are refund issues might be better.

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Utakata

“Small” differences aside, it sounds like a lot more stuff to it than just raising awareness. And I see no differences between someone that’s about to jump down that Smart rabbit hole, versus someone who went all the way down it. One should hit pause, consider their actions, and hopefully adjust accordingly. As they way they are going isn’t going to go anywhere.

Personally, I think there’s needs to be more of collective push on this than a personal crusade. The laws need to most certainly change to protect backers and hold crowd sourcing devs more accountable. That can’t be achieved by posting long dissertations on the internet blog comment sections that said devs can easily put on /ignore. Just saying. :(

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dinarian_

You are entitled to your opinion, but we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think that a companies determination to stonewall and ignore a very long ongoing issue affecting many customers is an example of a boundary that is fair for a company to expect. You can’t promise refunds in up to 90 days, not pay them (in my case as of today in 302 days and counting), refuse to even provide an update, or ETA, and then expect that nobody will bring it up in public. We still don’t know and can’t even get an update about whether MJ has finished refunds from February of last year yet.

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Richard Bogart

The refunds won’t happen until someone finally sues the snake MJ and gets the law involved. That sociopath literally believes people haven’t lost money as long as he promises to pay them back in 80 years (just trust him).

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dinarian_

Speaking of years from now, I actually thought about it the other day.

If 16 weekends of processing refunds had resulted in February refunds being completed (spoilers it didn’t and this is now weekend 17), but lets for fun use 16 weekends as an estimate because that was the number that was current when I originally was thinking about this.

16 weekends to complete 1 month of refund requests multiplied by 10 more months of refunds still needing to be processed for 2020, puts us at 16×10= 160 weeks. 160 weeks / 52 weeks in a year = 3.07 years. So at the current pace in just over 3 years CSE will have finished the refunds from 2020.

Now obviously there could be less refunds in future months, and MJ could speed up doing them if he wanted to, so of course it could be less than that, or MJ could slow down or even stop processing them at all for months like he did earlier this year, and that would add more time so obviously the estimate is just that.

But

At the current pace using the publicly available info I have been able to find 160 months is how long it will take.

Also math isn’t my best subject so please someone check my math.

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Bruno Brito

Mark, question. Does your game has normal classes conceptually? Or is it like Archeage where you mix and match and you have no initial class design?

Going from the artwork, it seems quite oldschool, so i would assume normal classes like Warrior, Cleric, Paladin, Mage and so on?

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Mark Jacobs

Yep, normal class concepts, definitely an old school vibe.

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Bruno Brito

Can you tell me some of those? Are they like Warhammer, where each class fulfills a specific role, or will you allow for specs and different roles for each class?

Man, i need a MMO that allows me to play a Mace/Board cleric that smites and bashes solo.

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2Ton Gamer

So Mark, sorry I did not go out and read everything, but I did see the pics through my email link. That first pic above of the forest, is that art or actual in-game? I will say that the models of armor, weapons, and other assets are top notch. I did watch a few streams of the model making and was always impressed with what I saw. Just hope everything holds up when the game is live. I’ve screwed around with making assets as a hobby and I know those tri counts can cause everything to come to a standstill.

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Mark Jacobs

Happy New Year 2Ton. Yes, that footage is indeed in-game, unretouched as always (other than putting things like logos) and that’s what players will be visiting in January (fingers crossed).

And yeah, the tri counts really hurt us when we started using Speedtree (our fault, not their fault, ST is awesome!) and spiffing up the world big time. The artists did what I asked them to and they did it well and then we spent months figuring out why bad things happened as well as good things. :)
That’s why I asked them to do that and the vast majority of issues that were exposed have been rectified, with more fixes/improvements coming this year, starting in January.

And the other shots that were posted in the past were also in-game as I was the guy recording some of them. :)

Cheers and time for me to go.

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2Ton Gamer

I know you’re busy working, but I will say that I had backed away the last year and a half from development because things were moving along slowly and I’m patient so I figured I would let you guys do your thing. From what I am seeing with this newsletter, I can see things have moved along and I can definitely see some progress. Hopefully 2021 can move you guys along and get something into more hands. Interested to see how many you can have in a battle with the progress now. (not including bots, but real players)

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Mark Jacobs

2Ton, I agree. One thing though to keep in mind about our ARCs/Bots is that they put the same stress on certain servers that players do. NPCs don’t, they only stress networking. Our ARCs connect to the game the same way a player does and to the game they are no different than players. Now, players can be more imaginative of course (ours used to be as dumb as rocks), but for stressing out the game server, networking, etc. they are the same thing. And frankly, they can be even better if you give them some simple tasks to complete.

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Munchmeat2

When did this game start development?

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Mark Jacobs

Before I head out and focus on some other things before my livestream, here’s the scoop on development.

Our Kickstarter was back in the spring of 2013. Prior to that we had done a couple of videos but no code for the actual game (as we said during the KS). During the Kickstarter, Andrew wrote a quick demo on what we thought our engine could handle which we showed during the KS.

After the Kickstarter ended, we didn’t focus (meaning the studio was putting 100% into CU) on CU till October 2013 as we also told our Backers. We had other things that still needed to be done before that (including hiring people). Once that was taken care of, we moved forward with CU and C.U.B.E. (the building system for CU).

From that point till July 2019, 100% of CSE was focused on CU/C.U.B.E. From then onwards, we added more people to the team (thanks to our investors’ generosity) and did a lot of shared development on CU/C.U.B.E. and FS:R while also doing a lot of targeted development for CU and FS:R. And starting in July 2019 (when we begin work on FS:R other than my design time which began less than 2 months earlier) till early this year, we stopped using any of the CU donations at all for development and CSE was 100% investor funded. And even this year the donation money is used to pay refunds and game agnostic expenses like studio software licenses.

And this year, as our updates to both CU and FS:R have shown, we were putting the vast majority of our effort into CU. That’s why FS:R didn’t launch into Pre-Early Access until late last month and why the amount of changes/additions there are negligible compared to CU. And frankly, if we hadn’t been able to expand the team some more, thanks to the investors, we couldn’t have even launched FS:R in 2020. But because I had the financial bandwidth to add more people, including more designers. We were able to put the effort into CU that we did while getting a lot of infrastructure done for the engine and also push forward with CU, C.U.B.E., and FS:R at the same time.

That’s it in a nutshell.

Time to get going.

Cya!

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Mark Jacobs

First, Happy New Year everybody!

Second, thank you Justin and MOP for the new year story!

Third, BB, I’ve been taking your advice about posting less but if you or IW would like me to respond to what you guys said as you raised valid concerns, just let me know! I’m just hanging out while getting some work done.

Thanks again MOP!

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Munchmeat2

You should post as much as you want! Don’t let a few forum bullies intimidate you!

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Mark Jacobs

MM, it’s not about intimidation, it’s about wasting time and/or as BB has said, hurting, rather than helping.

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Munchmeat2

How is answering questions about your product hurting the situation?

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Mark Jacobs

Hehe, I love BB, even when I disagree with him. :)

And as to the questions, well, always happy to answer questions about the game but as other threads have shown, things quickly devolve to folks purposively saying things/asking questions/going into attack mode about things I’ve answered again and again. Or worse, people saying things that are simply not true.

And, as usual with threads/forums/etc., the developer is caught between a rock and a hard place. If the dev answers no questions, then people say the dev isn’t responsive or worse, that what the posters are saying is true because the dev didn’t respond. Or if the devs respond to some things, then they say that the devs only respond to certain positive things or won’t address the real issues. And if a dev responds too much (as BB thinks I do), then the dev gets criticized for spending too much time on places like this which could be better spent elsewhere.

Now this is nothing new. It’s been that way forever, all the way back to the BBS era. This type of conundrum for devs is as old as I am! :)

I love interacting/debating/sharing knowledge with other gamers on MOP as I have in other places over the decades, whether it’s in CU threads or others. And as my post history shows, I never trash other devs, rarely insult publishers, and try desperately hard to always be polite.

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2Ton Gamer

I’d say, lurk and answer questions and don’t feel so inclined to defend your position all the time to everyone. If you can prove them wrong with the work, do so, but continue to be a scholar and gentleman.

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Bruno Brito

I mean, there’s this thing called “alt tabbing” that allows me to keep MOP open while i do other stuff.

It’s quite the groundbreaking technology, i tell you.

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Paragon Lost

Honestly in my opinion, stepping away from posting here is probably a good idea. I’m disgusted and tired of that same three or four people who drag down any CU article posted here. One in particular I wish you could address in a solid concrete way. (the poster whose name starts with a D and wants her refund who I’d almost consider paying the refund to make go away) So that their complaints could be silenced or at least ignored by those of us who do read the articles here.

I’ve been interacting with with you off and on for almost three decades Mark. I like and respect you. Your passion for our shared hobby has always shined whether on the old GEnie forums or here, you are genuine. That said, I think for your own good stepping away from reading comments and posting under these articles would be the best route. I just don’t see much productive from posting for you.

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Mark Jacobs

Thanks Paragon, much appreciated and that is indeed my intent.

Thanks also for all the support over the decades, that is deeply appreciated as you know well.

I’ll still keep reading and posting in other articles as appropriate but I agree with BB and you (and others) about my posting in CU articles.

Have a great first day of what I hope will be a great 2021. I would have said that I hope we’ll have a better 2021 than 2020 but that bar is so low that’s not saying much. :)

CYA!

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Paragon Lost

By this point I’ll take the low bars after the last four years and this last year in particular! Happy New Year to you and yours Mark! 🏁🏍😀

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Bruno Brito

I’m of the opinion you would really benefit with a professional PR.

Hell, if Caile Gray is open for business, i would get her on board. She was beloved by the GW2 community.

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2Ton Gamer

Agreed, but I did post above with how I think you should handle things.

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Drunk3nShaman

“I’d almost consider paying the refund to make go away”
I got 5 on it!

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Jo Watt

It is both amazing and appalling that another backer has to even offer to issue a refund personally.

On one hand it shows you have total faith in the team but on the other it’s a bit alarming that they haven’t issued any form refund in almost a year. Alarming just because it leads to speculation that all the money is gone or completely tapped until the game launches and finally generates profit.

I’ve been up and down on this game since kickstarter. The hope is always that any of these games end up delivering because the mmo market has been pretty bad these days. Every success is the possibility of future investments into more mmos.

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Bruno Brito

Answer if you feel like it, man. As always, i have nothing but respect for you. I’m not the kind of person to assume you’re doing nothing when you don’t answer ( nor should my opinion dissuade you from doing your work ).

I do believe, tho, that there is a relatively problematic threshhold where answering people addressing criticism ( earned, by the way ) as “bullying”, when one of your former backers still awaits refunds for almost 300 days.

To be fair, you do answer Din, and while it’s not the answer we would like, i can respect you giving your face to be slapped. Not many devs do this nowadays.

I don’t think for instance, you should bother with Oleg ( considering i report every single post he has that engages in character assassination, specially with you ), and to be honest, i need to thank him. I made a mock bet with boss-Bree that everytime Oleg mentioned Lost Ark, EVE or Star Citizen on any of the MOP prizes for 2020, i would take a shot. So, i was able to sleep my way to 2021 quite well, drunkenly so C:

All in all, good luck with the game, man. What you’re doing is a breakthrough, and that alone deserves props. You’ll be able to advance tech for PVP MMOs ages if you get this right.

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Mark Jacobs

Thanks BB, props right back at you. I am taking your advice this year so thanks for that.

And if you ever want to ask me anything about CU/FS:R/anything, feel free to hit Bree up for my email address and we can correspond. I’ll be spending less time here (not abandoning MOP, I love this site even if/when we disagree) so if you have a burning question or two, just let me know.

And like I said, I’m not leaving MOP, just cutting back. I enjoy too many of the conversations I have here with people such as yourself, Ark, Schlag, etc. to walk away totally.

Cheerio, pip pip, and all that rot! :)

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esslingen45

Cheerio HoHoHo and a Happy New Year !
This is your Quality Control (playerrun) just pointing out that your Newsletter needs an Update.
*naggg on*
Pictures not loading correctly. Seems some nasty cheeky Luchopan put a Tree picture in the back link (when you click on the chest art).
Newsletter 73 not appearing on the official Site.
*nagg off*
Thanks !

PS : Thanks for that looong Stream yesterday.

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Mark Jacobs

Hehe, yeah, something happened in the final edit of the newsletter when we updated one of the images. We had checked everything when the newsletter was going to go out prior to Christmas but I decided to do the Christmas update first and the newsletter/livestream as a NYE thing. Our bad on that.

As to the long livestream, you are welcome! I love doing them and talking directly to our Backers and interested parties. Plus, there were a lot of very good questions whether about CU, FS:R, or life itself. It’s why we don’t ask people to submit questions ahead of time and/or pre-screen them. It’s more fun to do things this way. :)