Warframe posts drop rates for all its loot, hoping to ‘start a trend’

    
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Warframe posts drop rates for all its loot, hoping to ‘start a trend’
Warframe’s Digital Extremes is joining the very small list of online game developers being transparent about just what’s in their lockboxes, lootboxes, gambleboxes, lootcrates, or whatever you want to call them. In fact, the data dump it’s produced actually covers all loot drops rates in the game, something researchers have been calling for.

Warframe is free! Which means our drop system is designed to maintain a balance,” DE writes. “Our free players can earn the game’s content, and our paying players who support us with purchases usually get first dibs on the content by using Platinum (which can be traded to free players)! As far as we can tell… we are the first developers to post something quite like this – correct us if we’re wrong! Let’s hope it works out for us and we may start a trend.”

Path of Exile began revealing the drop rates for its lockboxes back in March, what it called the industry’s first transparent lockbox. Meanwhile, Blizzard has been working hard in Overwatch and Hearthstone to circumvent a relatively new Chinese law demanding transparency in gambling-like video game activities, though some of the probabilities have made their way across the ocean via translation all the same.

Source: Warframe via Gamasutra

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Yaner

“Hoping to start a trend” – No, they are trying to douse the drama they caused when they issued a cease and desist to the community loved dataminer. Their ploy is so transparent that it’s depressing.

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Melissa McDonald

I have to chuckle about this stuff. as a VIP in LOTRO I get “hobbit gifts” all the time and quite often I get better gear pieces as I progress. The actual lockboxes require a key you purchase from the Store, but out of six of them I got 4 pretty spectacular pieces of jewelry that surpass any loots I’m likely to find or quest reward gear.

I don’t like the idea of them mostly, but in LOTRO such things are more often really good items than not.

Upaya
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Upaya

I hate that MMORPGs have to to this place where the norm is for players to distrust devs and for devs to distrust players. Now we have devs who are trying to shame other devs into releasing cold numbers for stuff.

The only people for which this actually matters are people who are gamblers. Gamblers as-in individuals who can’t control themselves. Every other player I have met who wasn’t a whale and didn’t have an addiction to gambling had no issue with not getting the best, even against odds.

What does it say for this industry when it begins to cater to problem gamblers to such a point that you have one dev house calling a challenge to other dev houses to be better at gambling-boxes?

People without a gambling/spending problem do not care much about odds.

This does nothing but normalize destructive behaviors under a guide of some kind of “fairness.”

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thirtymil

When it comes to anything that is paid for with real money, it matters to anyone who ever buys one, whether or not they’re a gambler. If the top prizes are fundamentally unwinnable but are being dangled under your nose to persuade you to buy, that matters.

Upaya
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Upaya

You’re simply reinforcing the idea that you’re a gambler. I play a bunch of games with intense lockbox schemes (like STO and now SWL) and the common thread in all of them is that the boxes are in no way needed… they are desired and wanted.

Which comes back to a desire for wins and lockbox windfalls.

The only smart move is not to play the game. And if the game is unplayable without the lockboxes it isn’t a good game.

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thirtymil

Except I’m not a gambler, unless by ‘gambler’ you mean ‘someone who evaluates cost versus risk’, which is fundamental to everyone who wants to live long enough to cross the road.

I agree with you that perhaps the only smart move is to not play the game, but if you’re associating the problem with not knowing the odds simply with people who have a gambling problem, I think you’ve got it the wrong way round. If anything, people with a gambling problem fail to evaluate the odds (or if they do know them, the compulsion to continue overrides it). It’s people who like to know what they’re getting into that like to evaluate.

Upaya
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Upaya

‘someone who evaluates cost versus risk’

Yes. You’re a gambler. Most gamblers don’t call themselves “gamblers.” They use words like “risk” to mask that they’re gambling.

If you were NOT a gambler you’d just not open gambling chests. It is that simple.

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thirtymil

Er, except I don’t open gambling chests – that’s a part of games I usually ignore. And people use words like ‘risk’ for, you know, things like risks.

I think you’ve mistaken my original comment – that fundamentally awareness is a good thing and companies trying to deceive you is a bad thing – for something it’s not.

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Estranged

They are preparing for a change in the law. All RNG legal gambling requires a disclosure of the odds in the US.

How is the air up there, anyway?

Upaya
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Upaya

It feels a lot better than when we start making laws because too many people can’t keep their CC numbers in their pocket and then get pissed that they don’t “get what they paid for.”

Do you realize that the realistic end to this argument is being able to buy power?

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Estranged

That ship sailed thousands of years ago…

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kgptzac

I think you have a worse trust issue than you imagined others having: you distrust your fellow players to be responsible adults. And you knowingly or unknowingly, are shilling for companies’ anti-consumer practice of hiding rng rates.

Have you noticed the this news about Warframe is mainly about their loot table being made transparent? Meanwhile you’re throwing money to opaque lockboxes, I’ll look past your insult and tell you that there are more of us who do spend responsibly, and appreciate/expect RNG rates made transparent.

Upaya
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Upaya

You want your gambling to be transparent. Gambling is NEVER transparent. Casinos identify and kick out individuals who play actual stats because when you play the stat you win and when you’re drunk-as-fuck from the drinks they bring you, you lose.

The real thing, here, is if you think you HAVE to buy boxes for whatever reason.

Most MMORPG players, by the data, don’t give two shits about lockboxes because they don’t ever open them. When they do, it is a gift.

Your argument is based on this idea that players just HAVE to open lockboxes, and you give the idea that players can choose to not be a part of that with disdain.

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Zen Dadaist

Right. *cracks knuckles, flexes fingers*

First off, Warframe doesn’t have lockboxes. Now that’s out of the way:-

The drop rates are for actual items that drop off actual mobs, or that are rewarded in a loot rotation for things such as opening a hidden cache, completing a spy data vault, successfully completing 5 waves of a defence mission etc.

In other words, these drop rates are used to pinpoint exactly how you might go about getting hold of that thing you’ve been trying for, such as which mobs to kill or mission nodes to run for a chance at a particular mod or relic.

What DE is doing is producing an official version of what had been a player-run client-side data mine project. This is because DE stopped said player from doing their data mining (there’s been plenty of drama and no-one has come out of it looking good). Consequently, the section of the community that relied on having this data got pretty irate at no longer being able to find out this information. No longer having this information meant errors in drop rates, bugs and mechanics that DE failed to explain in-game could no longer be found.
There have been many repeated instances of bugged loot and messed up drops being uncovered by datamining. If the players had not had that information then DE could not have been held to account and these issues would have been fixed far more slowly, if ever. (Paid for versus farmed for Chesa eggs anyone?)

So, it is excellent that DE is now officially doing the drop rate tables and yes, they are pretty pioneering in this respect because it’s nothing to do with lockboxes. There is still the concern that drop rate errors won’t be shown, depending on how the data populating these tables is sourced – i.e. from actual client code versus what was intended in a design brief somewhere.

However this is just the start. A lot of base gameplay information is missing when you play the game. It’s one of the biggest complaints I’ve heard from various friends of mine who’ve tried it over time. Secondary fire modes for weapons were not explained or shown anywhere until very recently, for example. Tool tips for very complex powers fail to mention any of the complexity involved. The community found out about the reality of these things via data mining, and this information got concentrated into a Warframe Wikia. That wiki is by FAR the most valuable source of gameplay information for the game. There is a Codex in game, and that combined with more information when looking at weapon stats and more comprehensive power descriptors should be where a player looks – not the wiki!

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Sorenthaz

Yeah the Wiki is pretty much my go-to any time I’m back in Warframe and curious about stuff or am trying to find where to get things.

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zoward

As a general rule I find third party wikis to be more informative than anything managed by the developer. A third party doesn’t need to keep the company executives, publisher or stockholders mollified, and doesn’t care which information makes the game look bad.

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CapnLan

There’s a bit of a back story on this and it really isn’t about setting a trend at all. It’s a response to backlash that happened some time ago. Let me see if I can get this all down with all the right links. Apologies if this gets long and messy.

For quite some time there was a popular data miner who would mine the Warframe drop tables and post them online so that people had an idea where to farm stuff and drop rates attached to that stuff. About a week or so ago his tables were suddenly shut down without warning and caused the community who had come to rely on his data mining to freak out a bit and wonder what happened.

What happened was that quite some time ago a hacker had managed to hack an Exaclibur Umbra frame into the game as well as as a Primed Streamline mod. Neither of these are supposed to exist in the game on the international server and ONLY on the Chinese server. The hacker in question was a member of the popular data miner’s group and reportedly went rogue. He was removed from the group after this happened.

DE then had their lawyers send some sort of legal letter/threat to the data miner basically telling him to stop mining and take down his repository to which he complied. This basically caused the community to burn itself down as a popular figure and his work were now toast.

DE is posting this up themselves as the backlash to no longer having those drop tables was severe.

Links to all the burning:

VoiD_Glitch’s Repository is gone? from Warframe

VoiD_Glitch Interview: The Truth on Digital Extremes’ C&D Response from Warframe

VoiD_Glitch Interview Part 2: On Communication with Digital Extremes, the Umbra Leak, and the Legal Letter from Warframe

I hope I got all of that correctly. It was a mess and I might have missed some.

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Zen Dadaist

And here is the detail of the data mine drama I didn’t want to get into in my tl;dr post above!

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

both of you thanks for going into more detail than i did.

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BalsBigBrother

Yipes, um well that does take some of the shine off the story doesn’t it :-(

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

to be clear this is a follow up to them cnd lettering a site that datamined their client to post this stuff already.

so it’s not exactly as altruistic as it comes off as in the article.

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John Mynard

My understanding is that the dataminers in question weren’t just mining the client, that’s all local on the individual user’s machines. They were in fact datamining the server, over which they have no legal claim to access.

So they were definitely in the wrong and defending them is…silly.

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i think this is the third reason i’ve heard now why they were cease and desisted.

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Totakeke

Drop rates. Not lock boxes. Because the only boxes I can think of off the top of my head in Warframe are the void key package you can buy from the Syndicates.

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BalsBigBrother

Ooh I missed that it was for all drops well that just adds to the kudos, well done Digital Extremes :-)

miol
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miol

0,09% or 1:1111 for the most rare?

Sadly, I’ve seen way worse!

miol
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miol

BTW, if anyone ever wondered how a 1000 sided dice can be realized:

images.duckduckgo.com.jpg
deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

i have no idea looking at that how it would work.

miol
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miol

Each of the 3 parts/tiers spin independently, each with 10 increments (0 – 9, 00 – 90 , 000 – 900), add up those on top of each other, at the side where it lands:

edit: reload, if you don’t see now added vid! :)

deekay_plus
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deekay_plus

ahh ok lol. i’ll stick to my digital dice rollers then :D

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wratts

Interesting idea, though I’m not sure you ever see the top two tiers spinning truly independently

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John Mynard

Would need a bearing or some sort of low friction slide material.

miol
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miol

Or you can make the tip even finer to lower friction, but I highly doubt that’s necessary on a common wood table or similar! ;P

miol
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miol

You are thinking for the case, that all 3 had the same radius or mass and therefore having the same centrifugal force applied to them… Which is obviously not the case! ;P

For any other contingency, here take it:

images.dgo.com.jpg
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BalsBigBrother

Yeah not the first but I do hope it is the start of a trend.

Lockboxes are sadly part of our gaming scene at the moment and obviously I imagine a lot would prefer that to not be the case. However, if they are then at least be honest about things and I applaud Digital Extremes (and Grinding Gear Games) for that at least.

Meanwhile Blizzard are starting to look increasingly skeevy and miserly in their approach to lockboxes.

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thirtymil

Yep, the honesty is refreshing and Blizzard’s antics in China look extremely shady in comparison.

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BalsBigBrother

Um reading some of the posts above it seems there is more to this story that was initially reported. So I well step back my praise a notch or three for Digital Extremes but Grinding Gear Games can still have all the love :-)