The Daily Grind: What’s the best MMORPG for gamers who are sick of raiding?

In the middle of the conversation spawned by yesterday’s financial news that Guild Wars 2 had seen its worst revenue quarter since launch, several of our commenters sidetracked into discussion about raiding in Guild Wars 2 compared to the rest of the genre. One commenter suggested Guild Wars 2 treated non-raiders as second-class citizens (especially given that GW2 was originally sold as a game that eschewed traditional raiding). But the way I see it, pretty much every MMO with raiding treats non-raiders this way, and it’s a huge problem for that whole raid-centric segment of the genre. And Guild Wars 2 is no exception.

Some gamers suggested games without raiding (like Trove), older games with NPC aid (like classic Guild Wars), games with solo raiding (RIFT), and games with difficulty sliders (like City of Heroes). Several commenters offered up MMOs like World of Warcraft and Elder Scrolls Online and Final Fantasy XIV because they offer plenty of raiding (or raiding-adjacent) content for casuals, which is something GW2 still strangely doesn’t do.

So today’s Daily Grind is two-fold: What’s the best MMORPG for gamers who are sick of raiding period, and which MMORPG-that-has-raiding treats non-raiders the best?

Every morning, the Massively Overpowered writers team up with mascot Mo to ask MMORPG players pointed questions about the massively multiplayer online roleplaying genre. Grab a mug of your preferred beverage and take a stab at answering the question posed in today’s Daily Grind!
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153 Comments on "The Daily Grind: What’s the best MMORPG for gamers who are sick of raiding?"

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Aaron Biegalski

Complete agree about GW2. The entire reason I quit was because I bought into the game for the open-world organic grouping / questing … but all the dev team cared to focus on was instanced dungeons and raids. (Which, might I add, are all complete crap. The lack of party roles that made the open world feel so good actively works AGAINST good instanced content.)

My suggestion is FFXIV. The vast majority of the content is casual enough to be easily completed through PUGs in the Duty Finder. (Seriously, I cannot recommend the FFXIV Duty Finder enough. No other game has ever implemented such a perfect way to do dungeon content.) And the content hands out currency to purchase the second-best gear in the game.

While hardcore raid content exists (in the form of ‘Savage’ versions of other endgame content) it is entirely optional and irrelevant. The possible items you can get from this content is so incrementally better as to not matter at all unless you are actually already participating in the savage content.

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Viktor Budusov

My vote for Lotro. It has raids (and a lot of) and few best items are only from raids. But there are many other best items (for other slots) that could be earned by solo or small group. So as result dedicated solo player and raider don’t have significant difference in stats.

Also Lotro has constant stream of non-raid content, one of the biggest in MMO industry.

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Oleg Chebeneev

If game has good raiding content doent mean its not suited for those who hate raiding. So your question doesnt really filter off raiding MMO from the list and the question becomes just another “What MMO would you recommend?”

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Iridescence

DDO is good as raiding is totally optional and the reincarnation system allows you to completely ignore it while still improving your character.

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steve

It’s a downgrade in my opinion, but if you’re leaving GW2 then TERA might be a fit.

I don’t do that whole treadmill thing, but I’ve always been a raider at heart. If I hear about a big thing lurking in a cave, I want to get friends and kill it. That doesn’t mean I want the entire world to revolve around a rolling soap opera of doing that as a competitive industry.

So, I don’t have an answer. ARK jammed their foot into raiding old-school style with FPS mechanics and that was interesting for a while, but I didn’t see them putting much genius into it. WoW pet battles saw me through a post-Cataclysm burnout, and I got to blow through lots of old raid content solo just to collect pets. You can find worse places to nurse your raid burnout than WoW.

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Sally Bowls

A defense of those that need no defending: Preferences shall be different, but I perceive but do not fathom a recent trend to criticize the staff in general and Bree in particular, knowledge/love of GW2. It is a matter of opinion, although I know how I would bet, as to their knowledge/love relative to you. But regardless, I think it is clear that the success of GW2 will be determined by the “98%” of the current & potential customers who have less knowledge/experience than she.

I remember when I was in a “should I GW2” ennui lull, the GW2 PR seemed to be about raiding (with a side of esports for a while.) If raiding were a significant part of GW2, then I was not interested. Not just because I don’t want to raid but because if I did, I would play WoW as they have far more raid content. If raiding were not a significant part of GW2, then that seemed like less-than-competent Marketing/PR which is a reason to avoid the game.

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Terren Bruce

You saw a lot of PR about raiding because it was a new feature of HoT’s, and then it was the only content during the content lull because of ANet’s restructuring. That was a painful time for non-raiders it is true, but that restructuring led to the much better content cadence we are now enjoying. That is why the Living World finale goes straight into the expansion only 2 months later and why Living World season 4 will resume only 2-3 months later.

I understand where you got the perception. But PoF is a really great time to give them a second chance. While raiding is still a supported feature that will get new content, note that a new raid isn’t an expansion feature. The focus of PoF is entirely on the open world and the story. Just like the 6 Living World episodes we got the last year were also focused on the open world and the story.

(Comment edited by mod; please review our commenting code of conduct.)

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Alex Willis

Black Desert.

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Terren Bruce

I think any sandbox would count. ;)

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Terren Bruce

Guild Wars 2 IS an exception. In a game where non-raiders are treated as second class citizens most of the content released for the game in patches is dedicated to raiding or preparing for raiding. Most of the good rewards are received in raiding. And the entire game’s culture revolves around raiding. And while GW2 has raids, NONE of that describes GW2.

In GW2 the vast majority of the content released is centered on the open world and solo story instances (6 open world patches in the last year vs 1 raid patch which was released at the same time as an open world patch). The most popular instanced group content is 5-man fractal dungeons which can scale to whatever difficulty you’re in the mood for. Each play mode has it’s own reward vendors and for the most part you can get anything you want by doing any game mode (if you do only open world content you’ll have to craft your ascended, and non-raiders can’t get the legendary armor SKINS). And that’s it.

And the entire game’s culture definitely doesn’t center around raiding as was shown with the outcry of Living World Season 3’s delay while the raids designed for HoT’s were still coming out. And even that little moment in the game’s history was only because the raid team was already formed and working on content before HoT’s launch and the rest of the company had to restructure after HoT’s launch, something which shouldn’t need to happen again given how well their content cadence has been going.

If you want the open world to be the focus of your themepark MMO then GW2 is THE themepark MMO for you. The only other MMO’s that use the open world as much are all sandboxes. The “GW2 is no exception” quote is lending credence to a claim that is demonstratively false.

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Jacobin GW

Agree completely. The pinnacle content of GW2 is open world PVE. Raids are just 10 man dungeons/fractals with unique skins.

If you want to see difficult content but don’t want to invest any amount of time just youtube it – thats what I do for SWTOR. The game is so casual that there is no point in even playing.

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Rottenrotny

Gonna go with the obvious one that no one else will probably mention:

World of Warcraft.

Even if you don’t EVER want to raid, and by raid I mean do current Legion raid at normal+ difficulty, there’s still WAAAAAAAY more content than almost any other MMO… Hell any GAME ever. I mean, seriously, what else even comes close?

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zoward

LotRO has a metric ton of content, much of it “free”, and raiding is mostly an afterthought.

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Rottenrotny

That’s the other one I was going to say. LotRO.

Everyone is screaming EQ2 but how dated it is and being under Daybreak it’s hardly the game I would recommend to people anymore, whereas WoW is still very relevant, populated and has more content than any new player is likely to ever see and complete.

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Ashley Bau

I mean, you can say that about most mmos that have been around developing for a really long time no?

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Rottenrotny

Sure, but most are hardly relevant anymore.

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Melissa McDonald

Eq2. There is a staggering amount of content, so much that it’s highly unlikely you can do it all.

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Rottenrotny

True, not knocking the game, I had a lot of fun playing it back in the day, but it’s rather dated at this point and… Daybreak.

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murmillo

I just returned to GW2 after not having played it since launch… And I’m overwhelmed with all the stuff there is to do in the open world.
And with Sweetfx (+Overwolf overlay for easy access to presets), the game looks absolutely stunning.

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Scrungle

Been playing GW2 since it was released and still have not raided. Never cared too, so much better content.

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MeltWithYou

Personally I dont like playing group content that has a story attached to it. For example, story mode dungeons in GW2…I can’t tell you a single story from any dungeon because the group you are with typically doesnt give you the time to sort it all out…stop for 2 seconds to catch a cut scene, you’re left in the dust. So I skip as I’m sure most people do.

Ive had this problem with SWTOR, Ive had this problem with FF14, WoW raids…you name it. Its a genre problem that can’t be fixed unless youre running with Guild mates or people that are understanding and patient.

Not complaining though, its something I’ve learned to accept over time. In GW2, I do open world content, if theres a story I want to catch, I check it out on youtube

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Terren Bruce

The Fractal Dungeons in GW2 have minimal story attached to them. Some people like that while others want normal dungeons to return because of that. I can’t say which philosophy is better as it’s just a matter of opinion but it’s a thing that’s there.

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be rational

Just wanted to point out in case you didn’t know that you can go back and rewatch cutscenes in FF14. They are viewable from your room at the Inn. I’m not sure if it’s all of them but I do know a lot of them are there.

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Fervor Bliss

Ever, Jane is a playable beta now.
If you like music, dancing and chat there is always Second Life.

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Terren Bruce

Although let’s be honest, I think we all want to know what an Ever, Jane raid would look like.

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Melissa McDonald

elite much?

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Sally Bowls

Better hurry since the #HARDCORE MMOs are fading into the sunset. The modern Golden Rule is “those with the gold make the rules.” Vox Populi, Vox Dei

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Fervor Bliss

Well the largest player base of 60 million players active in the last month.
Pokemon Go I would not call raiding either.

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Dug From The Earth

It comes down to one thing for me really

1. Is there plenty of things to do in the game that ARENT raiding, and arent hindered by the fact that I dont raid?

If the answer is yes, then im happy with the mmo.

Most mmorpgs these days are getting better at doing this too.

Line
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Line

I would still say GW2?
In sheer breadth of content and random shit to be done, it’s hard to compete. Depends on what players are looking for, of course. In open world content it’s unrivaled in themeparks, it has 5 player instanced content too, quite a lot of it now.
Obviously, housing sucks and there’s no farming, fishing and other side activities.

Always raising an eyebrow when people complain about raids though.
I played raids (I even got server firsts, hurray for dead servers?), now I stopped because the time investment and the kitten herding is not worth it.
And I advocate for story modes to let players see that content.

However in general, that’s not the problem.
People will totally raid… if it’s faceroll content. The big deal is difficulty, and being able to watch Game of Thrones and play with their fidget spinner at the same time.
LFR was a big success in WoW, and combat where you can afk and let other people complete the instance is loved by the community at large.
While super hard solo content? Proving grounds proved it (ha): almost nobody wants that.

Maybe they should do it like Guild Wars 1: very hard raids that are only available when your regional team won the PvP tournament, and you lose your money to open it if you wipe.
What do you mean, that’s not what people remember?
As if a dying game forced to convert to all solo with bots and infinite powercreep was changed drastically by completely misreading what the players wanted!
Guild Wars 1 was best solo game though, after three years of decline and a 180 in design that changed it from the ultimate 100% raiding to 100% faceroll solo with powercreep. History is written not by the victors, but by the people that still play after the ones that made the game popular left disgusted.

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Tiresias

GW2 treats non-raiders like second-class citizens? …Wut?

The gear you get from raiding quite literally only looks different from the gear you can get from other aspects of the game. It’s all sparkly and particle effect…y? but otherwise is EXACTLY that same as Ascended gear, which itself is only a minor upgrade over Exotic gear, which can be had for a handful of gold shortly after your character hits level 80.

IIRC, it’s something like a 10-15% increase in performance for Ascended gear over Exotic, and the vast majority of that difference (around 5-6%) is wrapped up ENTIRELY in the weapon, and you can get an Ascended weapon for your Elite trait specialization by completing an achievement.

One of the reasons that I play GW2 is because it doesn’t feel like a gear treadmill. I can go out into the world and just work on whatever cosmetic item or mastery track I feel like at the time, and I’m not compelled to grind raids just to stay relevant.

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Sray

I can’t think of a single game with raiding that doesn’t place raiders in an advantaged position over non-raiders. The only game I can think of that comes close is SWTOR with galactic command system, which is a nightmare of a different sort. Raids favor a time rich, highly dedicated player, who by default already has advantages over your common player who only plays a few hours here and there: placing power progression behind raids only furthers that imbalance, and creates the second class players we’re talking about here. If there’s an MMORPG out there that doesn’t bury the top stuff in raids, then there’s your non-raider friendly game; but I can’t think of one at the moment because when you lightly scratch the surface of virtually any of these games that supposedly don’t place raiders on a pedestal, you find there’s always a significant advantage being given to them.

I’ve never bought into the “if you don’t raid you don’t need the gear” argument. If that gear did not confer advantages outside of raids (like PvP specific gear tends to work in many games), it would be true; but the increased power gives those with that gear both time and economic advantages over those without it. To say nothing of the fact that rare and valuable crafting material often exclusively drops in raids, furtjer giving raiders advantages over non-raiders.

Additionally the vast majority of today’s MMORPGs are built around vertical progression; raids arbitrarily change the rules of progression dozens of hours into the game, which is bad game design. If I can level from 1 to max solo and in small groups, then endgame progression should work in the same manner. Just imagine if after playing 60 or 70 hours of DotA you suddenly were required to run solo PvE content in order to continue gaining ranks: burying power progression behind raids is just as bad.

Now get off my goddammed lawn!

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Dreema

LoTRO. It has raids, but there’s so much other content in the game that it never feels like you’re missing out on things if you don’t raid. I’ve been playing the game on and off for a decade now and still haven’t done most of the raids (and a great deal of the ones I have done have been when I’ve out-leveled them enough to solo them).

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blah blazh

Interesting viewpoint there. I’ve never liked raiding and I feel right at home in GW2. Yes there is the occasional raid update but most everything else has been for the solo player or the open world.

As for other games, the only one in which (that I’ve played) I didn’t feel any pressure or feel under the shadow of raids was ESO.

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Arktouros

Black Desert Online. You can still get the open world, large scale events like GW2 originally had with it’s world bosses.

Personally I dislike raiding after having raided for such a long time back in WOW. I haven’t minded it in a few games that have extremely scalable raids (such as in SWTOR could “solo” a raid to at least see the content/story) but the rest is just annoying. Exact comps, perfect plays, it’s like a big pre-scripted dance that you have to follow and they just aren’t interesting.

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Terren Bruce

GW2 still has those just for the record. One could say that was the majority of what Heart of Thorns had as content honestly.

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Daniel Reasor

As a non-raider, I’m quite fond of Star Trek Online’s approach to endgame. The reputation and fleet real estate projects are a grind with mid- to long-term goals, but you work on them by doing small team (five player) instanced content with a variety of difficulty settings, the lowest of which can easily be accomplished with a pickup group by a player who’s still learning the map and the fight mechanics.

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Reht

I liked Neverwinter for this reason, there were no raids initially – end game content WAS group content. I don’t consider the open world stuff they have added over the last few modules as raids, but they might meet someone else’s definition.

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Grim🎃 Darhk

I mean, I don’t feel like a second class citizen in Legion, I haven’t raided on really any of my toons. I still have a fairly high ilvl on all my toons, and I have plenty to do. Granted, I do Mythic+ dungeons, and that’s my main content, but it’s not raiding >.>

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Reht

Yeah, i have really enjoyed Legion because of this and i don’t even do mythics, i just do LFR, WQs, Nether Disrupter, etc. WoW really did a much better job for the more casual players with this expansion. looking forward to 7.3 as well.

borghive
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borghive

Legion has done a very good job at providing content and gear on par with raiders for the non raiding crowed.

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Thomas

The original Guild Wars was built around the idea of being adaptable to a variety of player playstyle preferences; I recall reading a terrific article by Jeff Strain on his philosophy of gaming and his/ArenaNet’s decision to include henchmen in the original game.

As far as I am concerned, the addition of henchmen (and eventually heroes) helped turn GW1 into a masterpiece of co-op gaming. You were no longer trapped in some hub waiting for just the right group of players to form up, you could play the game and all of its missions alone, with a few player friends, or with a full group of players. I played GW1 with both players and henchmen/heroes, and I have to say I generally preferred the latter: henchmen were uncomplaining, resilient, and, yes, not so very bright. I even enjoyed their occasional comments. Trying to work with them was a game and a challenge in and of itself (one that I thoroughly enjoyed).

I wish modern MMOs would take a cue from that bit of brilliance and offer dungeons that scaled to the number of players and/or offered a “henchman/hero option” for some of their group content. GW2 scratches that itch a bit in some of its story missions, though the NPCs that accompany you are dumb as stumps and a good deal more aggravating than those of the original game. What I wouldn’t give to swap out Zojja for good old, modifiable hero Vekk!

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Ashfyn Ninegold

LOTRO is the least raid-centric game. Strangely, it is also the game I have raided the most in. I suspect this is because with few exceptions (like when radiance was in the game), you can raid in LOTRO with your normal PvE gear and weapons and a few regular pots and buffs.

My main dislike of raiding is the stress other players bring to it that creates a toxic experience. LOTRO has these players but they have their own closed pool of raiding kins so that going into a LFF call in chat usually puts you in with other players just looking to enjoy the content. Maybe you get it done and maybe you don’t, but nobody goes apeshit.

You get good gear and rewards simply by playing the landscape in LOTRO, including mounts, pets and housing items.

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Tobasco da Gama

LOTRO has raids, but — as somebody who stopped raiding in that game ages ago and never started again — it still gets my vote for being one of the most enjoyable MMOs to play even if you never play to set foot in a raid.

SWL gets a strong runner-up position from me. Like LOTRO, there’s some story-related stuff that happens only in the dungeons, but it has a “story mode” that lets you do the dungeons solo (if you overlevel them) or in a party of three. The NYC raid isn’t out yet, so I don’t know if that will be made similarly accessible to casual players, but we’ll see. Even if the NYC raid doesn’t have a “story mode”, the overall experience without it is still top notch.

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Castagere Shaikura

If you don’t like raids don’t play any mmo post wow. Wow is the game that started all the crap with raids and getting better reward for doing it. But this means playing older games with dated graphics which seems to be an issue for most mmo players today.

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Stiqman

Unless you play… WOW. Legion probably is top 2 or 3 in terms of non-raid content in an MMO. There are a dozen things to do besides raid in several categories of activity from crafting to cosmetics, to pet battles, to dailies, to world quests, to guild-hall, to heroic/mythic groups, time walking, etc. etc.

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Alex Malone

I’m not sure what the issue is here.

Is it that raiders get the best PvE gear in the game? This is a stupid argument in nearly all cases, because whilst true, the best PvE gear is only needed to complete the hardest PvE content, which is raids. So, soloers missing out on the best gear has no effect on their gameplay, they can still complete all of the content that they actually want to do. The only time this is not true is when raid loot is also the best gear for PvP, but most themeparks don’t have that anymore.

Is it that there isn’t enough endgame content for soloers? Just gonna say screw you! The overwhelming majority of content is now developed for soloers, you can keep your hands off my raids! Plus, more and more MMOs are adding solo-orientated endgame content, its not as if the small number of dungeons / raids is killing the dev budget.

Is it that soloers want to see the raid content? Again, tough shit. The only way to solve this is by using complicated scaling tech, or to make everything in game soloable. I don’t subscribe to that level of entitlement, if you want to see the content as it was designed and meant to be experienced, join a raid.

As for the original question, I would always recommend LotRO as a game that has raids but is good to non-raiders. Turbine went out of their way to cater for solo players, so much so they ruined their game for those of us who enjoyed grouping. Virtually all leveling content can be soloed. Skirmishes scale to group size, so can all be soloed. Original dungeons all got revamped to be soloable. Gear gaps are low, so even if you don’t raid, you won’t be far behind in power. Hell, they even stopped developing new raids for years, replacing them with “big battles” – an attempt to provide raid-like content for the solo crowd.

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steve

I’m not sure what the issue is here.

…the best PvE gear is only needed to complete the hardest PvE content, which is raids.

The very idea that gear is a reward for doing what is essentially a semi-choreographed show band routine around a giant 3d pinata is something I take issue with. That paradigm of raiding is an enthusiastic niche culture, but it does not represent the pinnacle of what constitutes skill and investment in an online roleplaying game.

I’ve raided. I saw what it was, and I’ve seen what it’s become, and it isn’t good when a game pegs its economy to that niche.

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Blazing Coconut

I think the issues are as follows:
(1) Allowing raid gained gear to be used outside of raid based content allows raiders to have an unfair advantage over players who can’t access that gear. If your raid gear was solely useful for progressing in raid content, great! When it can be used in open world content, then it can become an issue. Perfect example is games with limited housing plots. If you can earn money faster because your character has a 10-20% gear advantage, then it does affect my gameplay.

(2) Developers spend a fair amount of time balancing the game to the high point. This has two issues; creating a balancing issue and using precious development time. The former impacts players by making content hard to balance to Joe average player. The later means there is less time for devs to work on something that more than 5% of the playerbase will encounter.

(3) Raids foster a certain agnostic attitude that certainly seems to be unhealthy in both the community and translating to RL. People have to dedicate significant time to do these, and guilds with active raiding are rarely forgiving to RL issues. Additionally, the attitude you display in your post is passive aggressive and that’s some of the more civil tones that Raiders refer to casuals.

So that’s my answer to your question. I’m happy there are games for raiders. I just don’t want to play in them.

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Schmidt.Capela

About 2, Blizzard used to give “this would cost us a raid tier” as an excuse for not implementing something the player base was asking for. I don’t think they do that anymore; it was a bad move anyway, as it makes non-raiders despise raiding as something that deprives them of content.

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kgptzac

Not sure this is a case of willful ignorance, but ANet stepped on our toes big time by gating backstory and lore of the GW universe behind raiding, where people who otherwise wouldn’t give a shit about raids (like myself) would perceive it the worst offense possible. ANet has done a lot in GW2 to violate the spirit of the manifesto video they put up before the game’s launch, and they are rightly condemned what they have done here.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

This is exactly the same argument that raiders have been making for 15 years. One could turn this on its head and ask why, when so few people raid, do developers spend so much time, effort and resources on raids when those might be better spent on content the majority of players participate in. This is the exact same question that has been asked by open world players since raiding began. It is, in fact, gratifying that developers have finally realized that open world players enjoy difficult and challenging content as well.

Elite is describe as “a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.” I think that pretty much sums up why there is raiding in games. So a select group can feel superior. Needing to feel superior through accomplishments drives a lot of the attitude raiders have demonstrated over the years, and still demonstrate. This creates rivalry and competition, which is another driving factor for a great many people.

Bobuliss
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Bobuliss

EVE has no raids, so it is an obvious choice for gamers who are sick of raiding. The closest thing EVE has to raids are Incursions, and only a very small percentage of players engage in them. Non-Incursion runners are by no means treated like second class citizens, and even though it is possible to rake in fantastic amounts of ISK running Incursions, there is nothing exclusive that can’t be acquired through other means.

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Bryan Turner

Good point, how ever Eve is a PVP focused game so that’s a no brainer.

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Rumm

The majority of games that have launched in the past 4-5 years?

Wildstar and FFXIV are the only games that I can think of that actually made raiding a core aspect of the game. One of those failed because people couldn’t handle how difficult it was after being fed casual content for the past decade, and the other has raids that you can clear on normal mode on day 1 of release.

Also, GW2 isn’t doing poorly because they added raids. GW2 is doing poorly because they added raids with a class system that is completely counter to that type of content. If that game had the trinity, I have no doubt that it would be much more successful than it currently is.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

you havent even raid in GW2, have you? the meta-group coms are very specific with tanks, dps and healers. most groups cant even kill the raid bosses without these specific comps.

only because you dont need dedicated roles in open world pve, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

borghive
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borghive

I agree, I think this game is struggling because the lack of trinity and the group content is just terrible. Feels like a glorified single player game in my opinion. I never understand why people want MMOs designed like this, does it give you some kind of immersion running around seeing all these players that you never talk to?

kalamari_
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kalamari_

ppl are more intercatice in GW2 as you think. you cant do meta events or world bosses alone. or pvp, fractals, dungeons or raids.

where do other mmos do it differently/better?

borghive
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borghive

Every time I played GW2 the chat was dead, I mean dead, no one talks in that game. It really is glorified single player online game.

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haishao

Maybe people were busy playing the game instead of chatting.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

what has a “dead chat” to do with a glorified single player?

and btw: join a guild, join a party, join a squad in wvw (wvw in general is very talkactive) or just start a conversation in map chat.

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Paul

Agreed – removing the trinity can sound good in theory (I was never convinced) but in practice it turned group content into a disorganised mess – main reason I didn’t play GW2 for long.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

raids need and have a trinity in GW2.

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Grim🎃 Darhk

Ok, they do. That doesn’t stop the fact that the game was designed without them. And having one healer doesn’t mean you have a trinity in a game.

(Comment edited by mod; please review our commenting code of conduct.)

kalamari_
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kalamari_

ok, only because the druid is the only meta healer, doesnt mean there arent other viable options in the game, you monkey. (auramancer).
nearly every class can be the tank, because you only need the highest toughnes in the squad) and ofc all classes can be dmg/condi.

and it doesnt matter if there would be only one healer. one for every role is enough to have an trinity.

GW1 only had one healer before factions too.

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Schmidt.Capela

Eliot’s old take on raiding might be worth a read…
https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/24/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-1/
https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/25/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-2/
https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/26/the-soapbox-six-reasons-mmos-should-abandon-raiding-part-3/

Ironically, in those articles GW2 was pointed as proof that a MMO doesn’t need raiding to be successful.

In my specific case, I don’t completely avoid games with raiding. But I will never again engage in raiding, not even “casual” raiding, so I see any game where the pinnacle of power only comes through raiding as a temporary haven at best, and scale down how much I’m willing to spend on the game accordingly; also, the first time I feel like I can’t do reasonable progress anymore without raiding, I leave the game.

(For context: I spent over a year raiding, much of it doing hard modes, and got thoroughly burned with the play style. I’m not ever going back to it.)

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Melissa McDonald

Personally I think the term “raid” needs to be taken with a grain of salt. GW2’s open-world, anyone-can-join events, to me, are “raids”. ArcheAge has them too. You were soloing, then you decided to join, then you go back to soloing…

Line
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Line

I would agree.
That was the only definition of raid for the longest time in MMOs, actually.

But now it’s only about instances, because why would you want open world? Or PvP in your PvP game? And what do you mean, there are raids with no loot? Not real raids, like the (mandatory, hi FFXIV) story ones.

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Veldan

This makes me question whether you ever did any “real” raiding. There’s an enormous difference between that and some random hot join open world events. You should never use the same term for both.

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Melissa McDonald

I accept Schmidt’s explanation as true.

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Schmidt.Capela

For me, at least, one of the main defining characteristics of raiding is the closed groups. In other words, that only those that were formally included in the group get to participate and partake in the rewards. As such, I don’t see large group content where players are free to join and leave as they please, without having to clear it with the raid leader, as raiding.

borghive
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borghive

I don’t get it, MMO devs are bending over backwards these days to please casual solo players, if anything raiders and social players that like grouping are treated like second class citizens.

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Schmidt.Capela

The moment you have something that is only achievable through raiding it makes non-raiders feel like second-class players. In most MMOs it doesn’t matter how skilled or dedicated I am, since I refuse to take part in organized raiding I will never have the same gear raiders get, even if the raider is a semi-casual that needs to be carried through all raids.

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Stiqman

But lots of MMO’s have unique craftable items only available to certain class of crafter. Isn’t that exclusive content available only to people willing to partake in a certain kind of grind? Doesn’t that make people unwilling to grind to crafting mastery feel like second class citizens?

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Schmidt.Capela

The big difference being that the raiding gear is typically BIS items, while the crafted gear is usually just something to use while you try to get the BIS items. Also, crafted items usually can be sold to other players, which means every player that is able to get gold can enjoy the “exclusive” items from crafting without having to ever bother crafting.

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Terren Bruce

Except in GW2 the very game you were so against in the blog post comments that generated this topic. ;)

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Schmidt.Capela

Legendary armor is BIS, and have as their unique feature that they adapt to your spec, something that ought to save players tons of gold if they are like me and change spec constantly.

(And yeah, I do change specs constantly. To the point I usually refuse to even consider playing a game that charges real money for respecs, which is, for example, the main reason I never lasted more than a week in CoH despite otherwise loving the game.)

Also, as I said elsewhere, my main gripe with GW2 is that it was originally advertised as a game where all the large group content would be open world, hot-joinable content, and where the most challenging group content in the game was supposed to be 5-man dungeons. I purchased the game based on that. ANet then went to add raids. Yeah, I’m going to be very cranky with a game adding raids if I specifically purchased it for not having raids, to the point I’m not sure I will ever give the game a second chance (the changes that would be required for me to give it a second chance would likely piss off the raiding community big time).

Not that I’m in need of new things to play, mind. I have multiple lifetime subs to other MMOs, even more B2P MMOs and F2P MMOs where I have most purchasable content unlocked, and a Steam+GOG backlog measured in hundreds of games; I can afford being picky and cranky.

borghive
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borghive

I think having certain rewards only achievable for people willing to group up in an MMO is fine, those rewards appropriate for what is required of you for organized grouping. You realize that MMOs are big games right? They need to cater to a lot of different play styles and having certain rewards for those play styles is appropriate.

I’d just like to add that no one is holding you back from that content other than yourself, most MMOs today have very accessible group content for almost all skill levels.

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Veldan

I often agree with you borghive, and I can still agree that raid-exlusive gear is fine in itself, but I still see a problem here: other playstyles are not rewarded with something equivalent. Want the cool shiny powerful gear? Gotta raid. You spent a thousand hours crafting and another thousand getting a crazy achievement score? Doesn’t matter, no shiny gear for you.

That’s the problem. As soon as there’s raiding, it’s always the only content that has the most desirable rewards. It doesn’t even matter that content outside raids doesn’t need raid gear to be completed (after all, raids don’t need raid gear to be completed either). The point is that the most desirable rewards in the game are raid-only, with no alternative for non-raiders.

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Stiqman

I’ve seen lots of crafting exclusive BOP gear…

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squidgod2000

I think the issue for many non-raiders is that the raid gear makes you better at the non-raid content. Thus non-raiders will never be as ‘good’ as raiders—making them second-class players.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

thats not the case with GW2 though

borghive
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borghive

Most MMOs now don’t require raid gear to compete in their games though, that raid gear is usually only required for raiding. Plus solo players love to spout about how they love challenge, why would you want this gear anyway, it would only make your content that much easier?

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Schmidt.Capela

Plus solo players love to spout about how they love challenge, why would you want this gear anyway, it would only make your content that much easier?

Do note that the exact same thing can be said about raiders.

Though, yeah, part of my gripe with raiding being prevalent is that, in order to justify raiding as the sole source of the best gear, MMOs often flat out refuse to provide solo content that is even marginally challenging.

borghive
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borghive

Warcraft just added those solo class dungeons and they were tough. Granted, some of them were bugged, but as a whole the community there hated them because of the difficulty. The casual player base pretty much revolted in their forums. This begs the question though, do solo players really want challenge?

I honestly think you are in the minority Schmidt, most casual solo players just want to steam roll the content and want to be showered with awesome gear for little effort.

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Terren Bruce

Having literally almost fallen asleep playing SWTOR’s solo content because it was so easy and the mechanics mattered so little, I can say THIS solo player loves to have some challenge.

The sweet spot is dying a couple of times till you figure out the puzzle on how to defeat the boss, but not having to die 10 times in a row before you get it.

GW2 does that which is one of the reasons I”m so enamored with the game.

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Schmidt.Capela

If I remember correctly, the main gripe against the proving grounds came from people who wanted to queue for group content and be carried through it without putting any effort. And another large part of the gripe was from players with high-end gear complaining that they didn’t have much of an advantage over casuals with easily obtainable gear, as the proving grounds scale down the item level and disable things like set bonuses.

Or, in other words, the gripe was mainly from group players due to finding they couldn’t faceroll some piece of solo content.

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Schmidt.Capela

Having exclusive rewards is one thing.

Having the unquestionably best rewards, like raiding in most games that have it, is something very different.

borghive
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borghive

Do the rewards matter though if you can still see the content? Most MMOs these days have accessible modes for casual players, at least you get to see the content. I’d like to see some examples where the best rewards are only available in raiding?
I think you are greatly exaggerating this issue, most MMOs these days are catering to casual players, these rewards you speak of maybe just a handful of vanity items really. Never in the course of MMO history has MMO content and the rewards been so accessible to casual solo players.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

“Accessible modes” for casual players. Unless it allows you to do it solo, it is still a raid requiring 12 people.

Although everyone has different reasons for not raiding, getting 12/24 people together to do content is still raiding and presents exactly the same situation(s) that many people do not like, which is why they do not raid. Making the content easy doesn’t make it less of a raid.

Not-raid raids also usually don’t offer the same level of rewards, which does nothing to address the raider elite vs. the rest of the community.

borghive
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borghive

Can you give some examples of games that show this disparity you speak of?

Can’t use Warcraft either because you can hit the same ilevel of most Mythic raiders without ever stepping foot into a raid. The only other game might be FF14 where raiders have a slight edge in stats, but that game has loads of catch up mechanics and doesn’t require any raid gear to experience like 98% of the game.

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Schmidt.Capela

Can’t use Warcraft either because you can hit the same ilevel of most Mythic raiders without ever stepping foot into a raid.

The gear you get facerolling LFR-difficulty Tomb of Sargeras is already better than anything you can get without doing raids. So, how is it that WoW doesn’t discriminate against non-raiders if you come out of a hour-long faceroll raid with better gear than you can get grinding non-raid content for days or weeks?

The same is true of nearly every MMO that has raids. The rewards for raiding are unreasonably large for the effort they take, and when there is a non-raiding way of obtaining same quality gear raiding gets that gear far faster and more easily.

For it to not be an issue, there would need to be some kind of solo or small group content that could give similar rewards, in a similar time frame, to what raids give.

borghive
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borghive

So I guess Mythic dungeons don’t exist then? They give raid quality gear. Your biased is just getting silly at this point, non raiders in WoW have never had more gearing options than they do in Legion.

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Schmidt.Capela

To get gear equivalent to LFR Tomb of Sargeras you need a Keystone 8+ Mythic dungeon run. And the item level of Mythic dungeons at 15+ keystone level or better caps at what you would receive for Normal Tomb of Sargeras; there is no non-raid way to obtain gear that is equivalent to what you can get in Heroic or better Tomb of Sargeras.

The other catch is that Keystone 15+ Mythic dungeons are quite harder than Normal Tomb of Sargeras, and Keystone 8+ Mythic dungeons are insanely harder than LFR Tomb of Sargeras. Players get a heavy increase of their reward and/or a sharp decline in how difficulty it is to obtain it just for going with the larger group option.

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Reht

Higher level mythic+ gear is > LFR TOS with possible exception of the using lower ilevel set items because of bonus… I have yet to see a single 930 piece out of LFR but have seen them in higher Mythic. And this is how it should be since higher Mythic dungeons are much hard than LFR TOS (no matter how cool the TOS raids actually are…).

Polyanna
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Polyanna

ESO is excellent if you want the option to play solo and still have very challenging content to do that gives the best gear available. It does also have small and large group endgame challenges as well, but you can do group content or solo, or all of it, at the “endgame” and feel like you are doing something really hard and getting good rewards for it.

And if you’re sick of instanced content entirely, then you have a huge game full of great exploration and questing content across three factions, that will keep you busy for hundreds of hours if you want to see and do it all.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

look at the updates of the last year that GW2 got. look them up on the wiki pls and tell me where GW2 prefers raiders over non raiders. they arent mandatory to play, other content doesnt get build around them and they dont balance for raids. they release open pve content and balance mostly around pvp.

(Comment edited by mod; please review our commenting code of conduct.)

sauldo
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sauldo

No need to be so defensive about this. Bree has been traditionally biased against raids, not GW2 in particular. I agree however that the original comment (and maybe the extra exposure it gets here) may be somewhat unfair. As I wrote before, the main difference between raids in GW2 and some other more raid-centrist games is the place that this kind of content occupies.

To take another game that I played recently -namely FFXIV- high level instanced content are the all and be all. All the game is built in a clever way that facilitates people into that kind of content, what is certainly a good move given the meat of its endgame revolves around said content.

In GW2, raids are an option amongst many others. The bulk of its PvE content is comprised of open world activities. There are however some other options for people who prefers more structured content (dungeons, fractals and, of course raid). The thing is, none of them are mandatory, whereas in FFXIV, you have to dabble in that kind of content if you want to progress the story.

Speaking about the story, that may be the only true reservation I have against GW2 raids in their current forms; the stories in the two raids released so far were heavily tied to the Living Story’s progression which was, in my opinion, a mistake and most probably contributed to the otherwise debatable perception that the casual was left out.

Not to say that GW2 couldn’t use multiple difficulty tiers for their raids if only for the utilitarian reason that more players could experience the content and, maybe, increase the player base for that type of content.

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Schmidt.Capela

If WoW is any indication, it takes reducing the difficulty of raids to basically faceroll in order to get more than a token part of the player base to participate in them.

BTW, my issue with GW2 is that it was a game released without raids, without plans for future raids, and where the way the devs spoke about that kind of content made it sound they weren’t going to do highly challenging content for groups larger than 5; when ANet went back on that and released raids as the pinnacle of content I felt that as a betrayal. I play other MMOs that promote raiding far more than GW2 does, but those other MMOs never hid that their end-game would gravitate around raiding (and I still leave the game as soon as raiding becomes the only feasible way to progress).

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Terren Bruce

They didn’t HIDE it. They changed their mind. Their plan changed. Because players were BEGGING for more challenging content to do together.

It’s easy to forget that for all it’s problems that after Heart of Thorns we’re talking about completely different problems with the game than we were before (except WvW). That means Heart of Thorns solved those previous problems. And one of those problems was the game was too easy. There was no where to really go to find a challenge even if you wanted one.

It wasn’t a betrayal. They provided a game mode some of their players were begging for but still kept their focus on the open world while doing so and also increasing support for PvP, WvW, and Fractal Dungeons at the same time.

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Schmidt.Capela

If ANet had added raids, but kept them fully optional by providing non-raiders with access to same-quality rewards and all the story and lore locked inside raids, I wouldn’t mind. That would be, as you described, just adding asked for content to the players that wanted it.

The moment they made the best gear, parts of the story, and a few other benefits only available through raids, though, they made GW2 a game that favors raiders to the detriment of everyone else.

BTW: there are some things that you can change in a MMO after the fact without causing too many issues. I don’t think whether the game will have raiding or not is one of those, though. It changes the community at a fundamental level (IMHO for the worse), it changes a lot about how progression is expected to happen and where upgrades can be had, it changes where development resources are getting allocated (hard raid content is among the most expensive bits of content you can create in a MMO due to the balance issues), etc.

As I said elsewhere, it would now take at least making all currently raid-exclusive rewards and story available for non-raiders to get me to give GW2 another chance. I doubt they will ever do that, though, as the raiders would be up in arms if they ever lost their privileged status.

borghive
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borghive

Your wrong about that Schmidt, 40 percent of the WoW player base is at least tried normal mode raiding(this is one level above LFR), I’ll find the info links here one sec. http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/ a lot of people are raiding in WoW this link shows everything

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Schmidt.Capela

“Normal” mode isn’t the same as in early WoW; back in 2013 Blizzard added a new difficulty between LFR and the old Normal mode, calling it Flex. Some time later it renamed the difficulties; Flex was renamed “Normal”, Normal was renamed “Heroic”, and Heroic was renamed “Mythic”.

Or, in other words, WoW’s current “Normal” difficulty is quite easier than anything called Normal before Mists of Pandaria came along. Not quite as faceroll-easy as LFR, but much easier than both what the game had before and what other games offer.

Also, Blizzard nowadays gates a lot of content and rewards behind raiding on normal or above; too many things that should have nothing to do with raiding require completing a quest inside a Normal (or harder) difficulty raid.

borghive
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borghive

Which content and what rewards? You mean artifact appearances?
Wow is the most accessible game on the market for casual players, your biased against raiding is blinding you my friend, you need to let go of the past, MMO gaming has moved on past this raid or die mindset you are trying to convince people still exists.

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Schmidt.Capela

For Legion, raids gate enabling flying (part of the achievement requires raiding), the profession quests, and a few other things. Besides that LFR is exceptionally better for gearing than just about any non-raid activity in the game.

So, yeah, very much still a raid-or-die mindset, even if they made raiding so easy you probably could teach a dog to do it.

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Sally Bowls

Flying required you to kill one boss on LFR difficulty. LFR is easy enough to get into that it does not feel like that much of a burden. Quicker and easier than the easiest 5-person.

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Schmidt.Capela

Flying required you to kill one boss on LFR difficulty. LFR is easy enough to get into that it does not feel like that much of a burden. Quicker and easier than the easiest 5-person.

Which begs the question, why even bother requiring players to engage in faceroll-difficulty raiding to get it? Why cap a long solo questline with raiding, even if it can be done at the easiest difficulty?
I take your comment about it not being much of a burden to mean it’s no challenge at all; as such it mainly serves to spite the players that don’t want to raid, without serving to gauge their skill or dedication.

Reminds me of the PvP requirements for the “What A Long, Strange Trip It’s Been” achievement; it serves mostly to piss off non-PvPers and PvPers alike, as every time one of the PvP sub-achievements is ongoing the PvP queues are flooded with players that have no interest at all in PvP and are only there to show their orphan around, cosplay as a Santa helper, or some similarly silly objective.

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Ashfyn Ninegold

Yes, when you require dungeons and raid to advance in the game, it is amazing how much of your player base will participate. This, of course, doesn’t count the number no longer playing WoW because advancement is gated by group content.

borghive
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borghive

So why play an MMO then if you don’t want to group? I mean you could just load up Skyrim and join of the many Discord communities out there for the social aspect.

Ashfyn and Schmidit you guys need to realize that there are other play styles out there. There isn’t some grand conspiracy to gate you out of content, it just developers trying to offer appropriate rewards for grouping because of the difficulty associated with it.

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Schmidt.Capela

Artificial difficulty, though. The only reason group content is any more difficult than solo content is because devs refuse to provide challenging solo content.

(And in some cases the bias gets even more explicit. Group content in Diablo 3, for example, at the same time is easier, faster, and gives better rewards.)

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Veldan

I’m no GW2 expert, but usually, the argument has to do with rewards. Most games that have raiding, have the top tier of raid rewards that is not available through other play, which is why non-raiders feel left out and “2nd class citizens”.

A quick visit to the GW2 wiki showed me that this game is no different:

legarmor.png
atatahir
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atatahir

Legendary tier in GW2 is cosmetic and convenience item and does not grant extra power. Players are not “Left behind” or “2nd class citizens” by not having legendaries. Not to mention you can now get legendary armor from PvP and WvW too and ascended armor allows you to swap stats too ( not runes though).

Most people are focusing on completely wrong aspect of raids rewards. The main problem with raid rewards in GW2 is that you need a raid kill in order to gain the ability to get spirit shards for XP. This does causes everyone who does not raid to be “Left behind” as they no longer get anything for XP once they have the masteries they need filled up.

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Veldan

It doesn’t matter whether it’s a stat upgrade, what matters is whether it’s a desirable item. When everyone wants something, but only half the playerbase (raiders) can get it, that makes the other half feel left out.

(no idea about whether it’s actually half but you get the point)

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Terren Bruce

Every game mode has unique skins. Raiding isn’t exclusive in that. And honestly within the GW2 community it’s not the skins that are desirable it’s the stat swapping, something that is as of today’s patch attainable in WvW and PvP.

And even if you don’t WvW or PvP you can still stat swap by reforging your ascended items in the Mystic Forge, it’s just not as fast and in-the-moment.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

but everyone can get the armor. nobody holds them back.

sauldo
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sauldo

Legendary armor is the usual point of contempt. Personally, I couldn’t care less if it was made more accessible for non-raiders. The reasons I don’t care are:

a) Ascended armors are just as BiS than the legendary armor, just less “convenient” because of the stat swapping ability of the legendary armor. Stat-wise however? Just the same.

b) If you don’t raid, or are involved in any form of high-end PvE (nightmare fractals), you don’t even need a legendary armor to enjoy the game (except maybe for WvW but that issue will soon be addressed by the introduction of the WvW legendary armors).

I understand that Anet would keep such a sought-after item behind the raid wall to entice as many people as possible to try the content but, honestly, given that reward has such a low impact on the game I’d argue that GW2 is pretty different than the other games in that regard.

kalamari_
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kalamari_

1st: legendary armor has no better stats than the best gear that everyone can easily acquire.

2nd: with todays patch pvp and wvw gets also legendary armor. and these armors are also easy to acquire for everyone. players dont even have to be good, they just have to spend time in these gamemodes.

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Bryan Turner

That’s probably true for WvWvW but Raids require you to kill the bosses. While the stat there’s no stat difference I can tell you that switching those stats in the Mystic forge can cost 100 gold plus depending on the stats, and then if you’re rocking plus 10 Agony resistance Infusions for Fractals that’s another 100 gold for replacing those.

Oh never mind regarding that last statement I discovered these things which cost mere silver.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_Extraction_Device

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Bryan Turner

What they’re going to tell you is that the stats are no different than the stats on Ascended Weapons and Gear, however you don’t get the convenience of switching stats on demand as opposed to spending 100 plus gold to swap these stats in the Mystic Forge while losing your Agony Infusions which also cost 18 gold a pop for plus 10 Agony Resistance.

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Bryan Turner

Look you and I are both white knights for the game but until they introduce story mode raids the Meta will always be there dictating who can raid and who needs to Git Gud.

kalamari_
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be rational

I’ve been reading your comments and thought I’d offer some input. MassivelyOP is not objective news reporting. It’s opinion journalism and this article is specifically in the opinion section. Maybe if you looked at it from that perspective it would help you be less bothered?

At the end of the day this is a blog site that depends on ads for some or most of its revenue. That revenue model depends on people clicking on and engaging with content. You commenting on articles and clicking around without an ad blocker on is that engagement.

Remember to keep in mind that these people are just normal people like us that play MMOs but just happen to write about them and like some people you’ll run across in life you won’t agree with every opinion they have and won’t be able to change their mind. Opinions are in the eye of the beholder. The real issue I believe is when you can broadcast your opinion to many people and influence them with your way of thinking without them ever going to find information on the subject for themselves.

I commend your attempts to correct people’s misinformed information about GW2 but I fear you are fighting an uphill battle.

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Bryan Turner

Well to be fair you and I have gotten into it pretty bad at times to the point that I have no doubt we were reported to the mods, I mean I admit my hot flash anger gets me into trouble with moderators and I’m good at bringing out the worst in others as well.

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CthulhuDawg

I like to roll another toon and choose a separate quest path if I don’t want to raid once I hit end-game.

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Adam Asbury

I’ll let you guys in on my dirty little secret. When I’m tired of the more mainstream games like WoW, ESO, BDO, etc. I like to play something completely different and will sub to Wizard101 for a month or two. I’m 42 and realize this game is designed more for kids, but I can’t help it. I started playing with my daughter years ago, and fell in love with the card combat. If you’ve never tried it, give it a shot. It’s cheaper than other games, especially if you do the family plan.

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mistressbrazen

I started Wizard 101 with my grandson, when TSW was killed. I enjoy the game so much I made a separate character that I play without him! It’s not an every day thing, but its good cheap fun where you don’t have to worry about raiding, and if you want group content you just stand on the sigil and wait for your group, if you don’t, that’s fine too.

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Adam Asbury

The pets are also a lot of fun, along with housing. Now with fishing added to the game, you have plenty to do in Wizard101 without raiding at all.

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Castagere Shaikura

I have been playing alot of older pre wow mmo’s lately. I can’t stand the direction modern mmo’s are going. And it all started with lame ass raids and better gear rewards for doing it. To me devs have just been stupid over this crap and are going regret choices they make. I say if you don’t like to raid and feel your being screwed over for it don’t play that game. If you keep supporting the game things will never change.

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Paragon Lost

If I had to choose, I’d say LotRO. It’s my fall back for that very reason. When I don’t want to spend much time around others, explore and just do my own thing, immerse myself in the world, story and lore, LotRO hits that spot the best.

Though you level up faster these days than you did in the earlier years I’ve noted, it still takes more time than most mmorpgs if you are actually exploring and doing all the quests, epic storyline etc.

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Melissa McDonald

The game is much easier now. Heck, I remember when quest arrows were introduced on the mini map. The game was waaaaayyyy harder before that, when you just had to wander around and eventually discover what you were looking for, like old EQ. Now it’s just get-quest-follow-arrow-complete-quest. And daily hobbit presents have given me gear that I never dreamed of 10 years ago, Mathom-Hunter’s Armour with +20 Agility and stuff like that, even with my current character at only level 43.

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Viktor Budusov

Did you try Mordor? :)

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Paragon Lost

Yep, definitely a different game from the one we played during the original launch. That Mathom-Hunter’s armor is very powerful but doesn’t come with the Light of Earendil stat bonuses so it’s usefulness ends with the Wastes.

Minimalistway
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Minimalistway

WoW makes soloing old raids easy when you level up, you have to wait an expansion or two, if you are in the raid to walk around and experience the story then this is a good way to do it, if you don’t mind waiting, when Legion released i went back to Warlords raids to solo them, it is just fun to be there alone to look at everything and notice what i could not in LFR.

Other than that i have no experience whatsoever in any other game.

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

So far I’ve not found a good one which doesn’t either force you into raids or pvp towards the end of the game.

Even City of Heroes at the end prodded one towards doing raidish stuff for lewts.

camren_rooke
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camren_rooke

I take that back. Asherons Call didn’t, at least not that I can recall.

Reader
Patreon Donor
Veldan

RIFT has solo raiding? What exactly do you mean by this? Soloing is, per definition, not raiding. Also, since you probably mean chronicles, I wouldn’t count those as solo raids, because

1) there isn’t one for every raid
2) some are only part of a raid
3) they have altered story / dialogue, and some have different bosses entirely
4) the difficulty and rewards are nothing like the raids

Honestly, the only thing raids and their chronicles consistently share is the zone they take place in.

Reader
Reht

In fact there are only 3 solo chronicles in the entire game and one of them is a story chronicle. Totally agree with you.

Reader
Rick Mills

Lotro, obviously.
But you knew that :)

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